Annoying printers

On Wed, 03 Oct 2018 21:52:41 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Wed, 03 Oct 2018 14:47:57 +0100, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 10/02/2018 01:09 PM, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:

[snip]

In civilised countries, the letterbox is in the front door, the mail
goes inside the house.

Around here, only older neighborhoods have that. For awhile, my father
had one. You'd often come in the front room and find mail on the floor.
In newer neighborhoods like where I live, mailboxes are along the street
so the mail carrier doesn't have to leave his vehicle (except for
packages too big for the box, and certified mail requiring a signature).

Huh? The mailman will be delivering letters to me and half the people in my street. He parks his van at one end and walks along the street posting all the mail.

The woman who delivers my mail is dropped off at the end of the street
and delivers to 24 houses. She is then dropped at the next street and
so on.

Steve

--
http://www.npsnn.com

On 3 Oct 2018 15:35:58 GMT, Frank Slootweg
wrote:

[4] OTOH, as long as it's a Ferrari, I don't mind having another red
one!

I borrowed a friends Ferrari but I could get in and out so I couldn't
do the shopping!

Steve
--
http://www.npsnn.com

On Wed, 03 Oct 2018 22:43:16 +0100, Wolf K wrote:

On 2018-10-03 15:57, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Wed, 03 Oct 2018 19:39:26 +0100, Wolf K wrote:

On 2018-10-03 14:19, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Wed, 03 Oct 2018 16:54:01 +0100, Jonathan N. Little
wrote:

Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Tue, 02 Oct 2018 20:27:53 +0100, nospam
wrote:

In article , Jimmy Wilkinson
Knife wrote:

For true grey-scale printing with an ink jet, you need at least
two
inks, a black and a grey. Creating grey scale has been a
problemin the
printing trade ever since half tones were invented. Look up
duotone
printing.

Most inkjets don't have grey. Using colours won't help to create
greys.

actually, it does.

multiple greys are better, but mixing cmy is an alternative.

Less black makes grey.

Yes, but there are different greys. In graphics there is 'black' and
'rich black'.

The former is 'knockout black' where other colors are masked and only
black ink is deposited, and the later is 'overprint black' where black
is printed over color inks. CYMK 0,0,0,100 vs 100,100,100,100. The same
goes for greys. Using color makes different shades of greys, warm greys
and cool greys.

Except I didn't want any of those, I asked for a non-colour image.

Not possible. Read up on additive and subtractive colours, and colour
perception.

BTW, you know the black wax crayons you used when you were a kid?
They're not actually black, as you can determine for yourself by
streaking a bit of black crayon across the paper, then adding a solvent
to dilute the wax. A truly black wax crayon isn't possible, because it
would have to be basically solid carbon. The colour in wax crayons is
dye, not pigment. A pigment "crayon" is termed a pastel crayon/stick.

I find it hard to believe you get better black from cyan yellow and
magenta than from black.

When using coloured inks, you need all three colours plus black to get a
good printed black. Each of the colours reflects less light than falls
on it. Between them they filter our each other, so the net effect is
almost no light reflected back. You get a muddy very dark grey. To soak
up the littel bit of light left over, you add black ink.

So what is the point in having the option in my printer dialogue to select "greyscale"?

So tell me, how did black and white inkjets work?
Any b/w printer creates half-tone images, like newspapers that print
grey-scale pictures. Look closely, and you can see the dots, different
sizes with different amounts of white space between them. You may need a
magnifying glass. (1)

Surely they just shoot less ink for the lighter greys?

At normal viewing distance, you can't see the dots, so you perceive a
black-and-white grey scale image. (2) Colour printing was done by
printing four plates, one each for C, M, Y, and K. They had to in
"register", the dots aligned correctly relative to each other, to get a
good colour picture. (3)

The only difference between the first inkjets and current ones is the
size of the dots: modern printers lay down very, very small dots, very
close together at the same order of magnitude as the silver grain in
photographic film. So the ink spots do create a "photo-quality" image. (2)

The underlying principle is the raster (4): arrange dots of different
sizes or different spacing, and you can create the illusion of light and
shadow in 3D objects. It's an ancient technique, used to make engravings
as well as drawings, as a visit a good art gallery will demonstrate.
Laying down paint or charcoal, etc, on the canvas or paper does the
same, but the dots (pigment particles in the paint, charcoal particles
adhering to the paper, etc) are just very much smaller than dots made
with a pen on paper or an engraving tool on a plate.

So you can't have grey by placing less ink, you have to make dots of black and white? Can't you get a weaker colour by using less ink, much like a felt tip pen that's running out?

On Wed, 03 Oct 2018 22:42:39 +0100, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:

On 3 Oct 2018 15:35:58 GMT, Frank Slootweg
wrote:

[4] OTOH, as long as it's a Ferrari, I don't mind having another red
one!

I borrowed a friends Ferrari but I could get in and out so I couldn't
do the shopping!

What?!

On Wed, 03 Oct 2018 22:34:19 +0100, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:

On Wed, 03 Oct 2018 21:52:41 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Wed, 03 Oct 2018 14:47:57 +0100, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 10/02/2018 01:09 PM, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:

[snip]

In civilised countries, the letterbox is in the front door, the mail
goes inside the house.

Around here, only older neighborhoods have that. For awhile, my father
had one. You'd often come in the front room and find mail on the floor.
In newer neighborhoods like where I live, mailboxes are along the street
so the mail carrier doesn't have to leave his vehicle (except for
packages too big for the box, and certified mail requiring a signature).

Huh? The mailman will be delivering letters to me and half the people in my street. He parks his van at one end and walks along the street posting all the mail.

The woman who delivers my mail is dropped off at the end of the street
and delivers to 24 houses. She is then dropped at the next street and
so on.

Yes, and in the UK, they bother to deliver it to the door, real service.

In article , Wolf K
wrote:

The inks are dyes. That's why inks are CMYK, and not BRYK. Some of the
light travels through the ink and is reflected off the substrate. The
result is an unpredictable mix of additive and subtractive colours.
That's why the driver has plain, matte, and glossy paper paper settings,
etc. Try printing on plain paper with the glossy paper setting to have
some inkling of how these factors interact.

BRYK? Red-Yellow-Blue for pigmented primaries as in oil paints? Whether
dyes or pigments the process is subtractive color primaries. Additive
primaries are RGB where light is transmitted as with a monitor or TV.

As I said, dyes are transparent/translucent, so some light is reflected
off the substrate out through the inks, that's one reason why why colour
printing is tricky.

it's because inks are imperfect and the same issues apply to pigment
inks.

BTW, there are/have been inkjet printers with R and G as well. I had
one, a Canon Pixma with 7 cartridges: CMYK + R, G and black pigment.it
produced stunning colour. Unfortunately, it was discontinued. Here's a
replacement model (which I did not buy):

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/p...s/printers/sup
port-professional-inkjet-printers/pixma-pro9000

that's a cmyk printer with two magentas and two cyans (common in many
photo printers) and also red and green to widen the gamut even further.
it's a variant on hexachrome, which uses cmyk plus orange and green.

Don't know about blue. One could add a blue ink, I suppose, would make
the ink mix even trickier.

not much point in that.

On Wed, 03 Oct 2018 23:44:07 +0100, "Jimmy Wilkinson Knife"
wrote:

On Wed, 03 Oct 2018 22:42:39 +0100, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:

On 3 Oct 2018 15:35:58 GMT, Frank Slootweg
wrote:

[4] OTOH, as long as it's a Ferrari, I don't mind having another red
one!

I borrowed a friends Ferrari but I could get in and out so I couldn't
do the shopping!

What?!

I meant that I couldn't get in and out. I normally used my Honda to do
my shopping. That car was off the road so my friend said I could
borrow his Ferrari to go shopping. After two bags of groceries it was
full. I had the same trouble with his Porsche. It was nice to show off
a bit. AAMOI he now has a Maserati which is far more practical. I now
get everything delivered!

Steve

--
http://www.npsnn.com

On 10/03/2018 10:58 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
In civilised countries, the letterbox is in the front door, the mail
goes inside the house.

My mailbox at the end of my driveway and is over 1,000 feet from my
front door. Not everybody lives on a tenth acre lot.

I used to live in a place like that. There were trees all around the
house, making the yard private on all sides. The mailbox was down a long
driveway that curved, and the mailbox was across the road.

--
82 days until the winter celebration (Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

Jesus loves the Ku Klux Klanners, Jesus loves the KKK, Pointy hats and
flowing robes, Burning crosses, homophobes! Jesus loves the Klanners of
the world!

On 10/03/2018 01:20 PM, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Wed, 03 Oct 2018 17:22:16 +0100, Mr. Man-wai Chang

[snip]

You need a laser printer!

And of course they never **** up....

I've had a few paper jams in my laser printer, as well as leaking toner
from those "low cost" cartridges and the "Print Unable E1" messages
(fixed with the proper driver). Still a lot fewer problems than with
inkjets.

--
82 days until the winter celebration (Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

Jesus loves the Ku Klux Klanners, Jesus loves the KKK, Pointy hats and
flowing robes, Burning crosses, homophobes! Jesus loves the Klanners of
the world!

What part of "grey is a colour" don't you get?

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On 10/3/2018 11:22 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 10/1/2018 12:41 AM, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
Why is it, that in the 21st century, printers never do what you tell
them to?Â* They forget you want landscape, they forget the number of
copies, they refuse to cancel a job you've sent, they try to use
colour ink for a black and white image and take 5 times longer, they
can't feed a piece of paper without jamming it, the nozzles clog up
every five minutes, the ink cartridges are stupidly small, and they
**** about for ten minutes doing god knows what, spinning the roller
and moving the cartridge back and forth for no reason before they get
to work!


You need a laser printer!


HUH? What kind are you using?
I have an HP 3830 and it does all of this and more without problems
(unless one of the ink cartridges gets gets empty).

On 10/03/2018 02:32 PM, Wolf K wrote:

[snip]

Don't know about blue. One could add a blue ink, I suppose, would make
the ink mix even trickier.

Best,

I once had a Kodak printer that had 2 different black inks. I don't
remember what was different about them.

--
82 days until the winter celebration (Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

Jesus loves the Ku Klux Klanners, Jesus loves the KKK, Pointy hats and
flowing robes, Burning crosses, homophobes! Jesus loves the Klanners of
the world!

On Thu, 04 Oct 2018 15:18:44 +0100, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 10/03/2018 02:32 PM, Wolf K wrote:

[snip]

Don't know about blue. One could add a blue ink, I suppose, would make
the ink mix even trickier.

Best,

I once had a Kodak printer that had 2 different black inks. I don't
remember what was different about them.

I've seen that on a professional printer (I think Epson), they were called "black" and "light black", which I would have called "dark grey".

On Thu, 04 Oct 2018 15:13:04 +0100, Mathedman wrote:

On 10/3/2018 11:22 AM, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:
On 10/1/2018 12:41 AM, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
Why is it, that in the 21st century, printers never do what you tell
them to? They forget you want landscape, they forget the number of
copies, they refuse to cancel a job you've sent, they try to use
colour ink for a black and white image and take 5 times longer, they
can't feed a piece of paper without jamming it, the nozzles clog up
every five minutes, the ink cartridges are stupidly small, and they
**** about for ten minutes doing god knows what, spinning the roller
and moving the cartridge back and forth for no reason before they get
to work!


You need a laser printer!


HUH? What kind are you using?
I have an HP 3830 and it does all of this and more without problems
(unless one of the ink cartridges gets gets empty).

My god the HPs are the worst for doing stupid stuff.

On Thu, 04 Oct 2018 15:10:07 +0100, wrote:

What part of "grey is a colour" don't you get?

Who are you talking to? Learn to quote.