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Why isn't closing a program or game instantaneous?



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 16th 18, 12:53 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife[_2_]
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Default Why isn't closing a program or game instantaneous?

When you close a program or game, provided you're not saving a file, why doesn't it happen immediately? What on earth has it to do?
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  #2  
Old October 16th 18, 01:47 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Ant[_2_]
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Default Why isn't closing a program or game instantaneous?

Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
When you close a program or game, provided you're not saving a file, why doesn't it happen immediately? What on earth has it to do?


Probably using a lot of resources like memories, storage, etc.
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  #3  
Old October 16th 18, 02:54 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
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Default Why isn't closing a program or game instantaneous?

Ant wrote:
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
When you close a program or game, provided you're not saving a file, why doesn't it happen immediately? What on earth has it to do?


Probably using a lot of resources like memories, storage, etc.


On WinXP, it could take 30 seconds to a minute, to unwind
the page file.

I wouldn't expect Vista+ to be that bad.

*******

You could try running Sysinternals Procmon, start a trace,
then stop the program in question, and see what events
show up. Stop the trace, scroll back, and analyze.

You never know what you might discover.

Paul
  #4  
Old October 16th 18, 03:00 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mayayana
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Default Why isn't closing a program or game instantaneous?

"Jimmy Wilkinson Knife" wrote

| When you close a program or game, provided you're not saving a file, why
doesn't it happen immediately? What on earth has it to do?
|

I don't have any programs that lag in closing.
But I don't have any games. I suppose they might
have to save a lot of settings in case you want
to continue where you left off.


  #5  
Old October 16th 18, 02:37 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife[_2_]
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Default Why isn't closing a program or game instantaneous?

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 01:17:48 +0100, Wolf K wrote:

On 2018-10-15 19:53, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
When you close a program or game, provided you're not saving a file, why
doesn't it happen immediately? What on earth has it to do?


Unload and release RAM -- update indices


Marking something as empty should be bloody fast. If I delete 5GB of files from my disk, it doesn't actually write 5GB of blanks.

Unload and release disk space used for temp files -- update indices


As above.

Many games also write state data so that you start where you left off.
That usually means rewriting temp files in a different location.


Nope, I already saved the game. When I exited, it asked "do you want to save", so I said no.

And that's just the obvious stuff.

  #6  
Old October 16th 18, 02:38 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife[_2_]
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Default Why isn't closing a program or game instantaneous?

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 02:54:11 +0100, Paul wrote:

Ant wrote:
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
When you close a program or game, provided you're not saving a file, why doesn't it happen immediately? What on earth has it to do?


Probably using a lot of resources like memories, storage, etc.


On WinXP, it could take 30 seconds to a minute, to unwind
the page file.

I wouldn't expect Vista+ to be that bad.


I was using a computer with a small amount of RAM.

*******

You could try running Sysinternals Procmon, start a trace,
then stop the program in question, and see what events
show up. Stop the trace, scroll back, and analyze.

You never know what you might discover.


**** programming I would guess.
  #7  
Old October 16th 18, 02:38 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife[_2_]
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Posts: 269
Default Why isn't closing a program or game instantaneous?

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 01:47:33 +0100, Ant wrote:

Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
When you close a program or game, provided you're not saving a file, why doesn't it happen immediately? What on earth has it to do?


Probably using a lot of resources like memories, storage, etc.


But stopping using those should be instant. Just mark them as empty.
  #8  
Old October 16th 18, 02:39 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife[_2_]
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Posts: 269
Default Why isn't closing a program or game instantaneous?

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 03:00:58 +0100, Mayayana wrote:

"Jimmy Wilkinson Knife" wrote

| When you close a program or game, provided you're not saving a file, why
doesn't it happen immediately? What on earth has it to do?
|

I don't have any programs that lag in closing.
But I don't have any games. I suppose they might
have to save a lot of settings in case you want
to continue where you left off.


That would make sense, but I'd already saved the game and was asked if I wanted to when I clicked exit.
  #9  
Old October 16th 18, 02:56 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mr. Man-wai Chang
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Default Why isn't closing a program or game instantaneous?

On 10/16/2018 7:53 AM, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
When you close a program or game, provided you're not saving a file, why doesn't it happen immediately? What on earth has it to do?


You will have to read their source codes to find out.... they gotta have
been waiting for something!

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  #10  
Old October 16th 18, 03:11 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife[_2_]
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Posts: 269
Default Why isn't closing a program or game instantaneous?

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 14:50:05 +0100, Wolf K wrote:

On 2018-10-16 09:38, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
[...]

I was using a computer with a small amount of RAM.

[...]

Major clue!

A small amount of RAM means a lot of paging (copying program and OS
modules/data to the HDD, and copying them back into RAM as needed.)
Closing the program requires some HDD activity, which is a hell of a lot
slower than RAM.


Would would it need to? The game was in RAM, now the RAM is marked as free, and it can load other programs back off the disk when it needs to.
  #11  
Old October 16th 18, 03:12 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife[_2_]
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Posts: 269
Default Why isn't closing a program or game instantaneous?

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 14:56:54 +0100, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:

On 10/16/2018 7:53 AM, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
When you close a program or game, provided you're not saving a file, why doesn't it happen immediately? What on earth has it to do?


You will have to read their source codes to find out.... they gotta have
been waiting for something!


Some take ages, some don't, so someone writes ****ty code.
  #12  
Old October 16th 18, 04:19 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default Why isn't closing a program or game instantaneous?

Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 14:50:05 +0100, Wolf K wrote:

On 2018-10-16 09:38, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
[...]

I was using a computer with a small amount of RAM.

[...]

Major clue!

A small amount of RAM means a lot of paging (copying program and OS
modules/data to the HDD, and copying them back into RAM as needed.)
Closing the program requires some HDD activity, which is a hell of a lot
slower than RAM.


Would would it need to? The game was in RAM, now the RAM is marked as
free, and it can load other programs back off the disk when it needs to.


On WinXP, the pagefile could become really fragmented.
And when it unwound, it seemed to unwind in allocation
order, and the disk head flew all over the place. There
was no such thing back then, as sequentially unwinding
the pagefile. That's why it took so long (and was so annoying).

On Windows 10, the pagefile is hardly ever used. My attempts
to abuse it with synthetic testing, didn't indicate it
was all that interested in paging. But Windows 10 also
has some egregious behavior, and I've reported a few
lockups here caused by Microsoft supporting a few
too many features at a time (a write cache combined
with mountable VHDs leads to a trashed OS :-( - on a
previous OS, a similar test yields a simple
Delayed Write Failure and no drama).

Windows 10 does run a Memory Compressor though. And I don't
know if I have a good technical reference on what that's
doing. All I can tell you is, the tighter the system is
on memory, eventually the Memory Compressor is railed
on one core doing *something*.

Paul
  #13  
Old October 16th 18, 04:24 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Jonathan N. Little[_2_]
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Posts: 1,133
Default Why isn't closing a program or game instantaneous?

Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 01:17:48 +0100, Wolf K wrote:

On 2018-10-15 19:53, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
When you close a program or game, provided you're not saving a file, why
doesn't it happen immediately?* What on earth has it to do?


Unload* and release RAM -- update indices


Marking something as empty should be bloody fast.* If I delete 5GB of
files from my disk, it doesn't actually write 5GB of blanks.

Unload and release disk space used for temp files -- update indices


As above.

Many games also write state data so that you start where you left off.
That usually means rewriting temp files in a different location.


Nope, I already saved the game.* When I exited, it asked "do you want to
save", so I said no.

And that's just the obvious stuff.


Pull the power cord, that'll exit the game faster ;-)

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Take care,

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  #14  
Old October 16th 18, 04:25 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife[_2_]
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Posts: 269
Default Why isn't closing a program or game instantaneous?

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 16:19:52 +0100, Paul wrote:

Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 14:50:05 +0100, Wolf K wrote:

On 2018-10-16 09:38, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
[...]

I was using a computer with a small amount of RAM.
[...]

Major clue!

A small amount of RAM means a lot of paging (copying program and OS
modules/data to the HDD, and copying them back into RAM as needed.)
Closing the program requires some HDD activity, which is a hell of a lot
slower than RAM.


Would would it need to? The game was in RAM, now the RAM is marked as
free, and it can load other programs back off the disk when it needs to.


On WinXP, the pagefile could become really fragmented.
And when it unwound, it seemed to unwind in allocation
order, and the disk head flew all over the place. There
was no such thing back then, as sequentially unwinding
the pagefile. That's why it took so long (and was so annoying).

On Windows 10, the pagefile is hardly ever used. My attempts
to abuse it with synthetic testing, didn't indicate it
was all that interested in paging. But Windows 10 also
has some egregious behavior, and I've reported a few
lockups here caused by Microsoft supporting a few
too many features at a time (a write cache combined
with mountable VHDs leads to a trashed OS :-( - on a
previous OS, a similar test yields a simple
Delayed Write Failure and no drama).

Windows 10 does run a Memory Compressor though. And I don't
know if I have a good technical reference on what that's
doing. All I can tell you is, the tighter the system is
on memory, eventually the Memory Compressor is railed
on one core doing *something*.


No matter what of the above it was doing, none of it should have delayed closing the game or application. Possibly displaying another one that had been paged. For example, you load a huge piece of bloated software which takes up most of your RAM. Then you stop using that an hour later but leave it sat there doing nothing. You load another big one and use that for a while. Windows pages the first one to disk. When you stop the 2nd one and close it, it should close immediately, then take a while to display the first one if you try to use it, or load it in the background ready.
  #15  
Old October 16th 18, 04:26 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default Why isn't closing a program or game instantaneous?

Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 01:47:33 +0100, Ant wrote:

Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
When you close a program or game, provided you're not saving a file,
why doesn't it happen immediately? What on earth has it to do?


Probably using a lot of resources like memories, storage, etc.


But stopping using those should be instant. Just mark them as empty.


It's not the resources that matter.

It's how the resources are managed, and what side
effects the management of the resources have, that
causes the delayed response.

I don't think Windows 10 is anywhere near as bad as
WinXP for that. But on the other hand, Windows 10 isn't
good from an architecture perspective, and when testing
edge cases, there's a good chance you'll break something.
Previous OSes seemed to handle resource exhaustion
more elegantly than Windows 10 does. In a typical
Windows 10 meltdown, the Task Manager can't be started
or made to stop the problem, then the system locks up,
black screens, or plays fiddle music using tiny violins.

You have to be *really awake* to spot resource exhaustion
in time. For example, if Storage Spaces is running,
and warns you that C: is running out of disk, you
might only have a matter of *seconds* to do something
about it. Don't go out in the kitchen and make
another cup of coffee, if you get a low space warning.
You need your ninja control-alt-delete response instead.

Paul
 




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