A Windows XP help forum. PCbanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » PCbanter forum » Windows 10 » Windows 10 Help Forum
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flaw forcesLinux, Windows redesign



 
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16  
Old January 5th 18, 10:04 AM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
Peter Köhlmann[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 235
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

Roger Blake wrote:

On 2018-01-04, chrisv wrote:
Might I say that was an awesome post, sir.


His post was sheer idiocy. CO2 is not a pollutant - period.

Human caused "climate change/global warming" is junk science at
its worst.


Idiot
Ads
  #17  
Old January 5th 18, 12:00 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
Chris Ahlstrom[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 169
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

Roger Blake wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

On 2018-01-04, chrisv wrote:
Might I say that was an awesome post, sir.


His post was sheer idiocy. CO2 is not a pollutant - period.


How about you fill your room with CO2 for a couple hours, Roge?

rest of head-in-the-sand post snipped


--
Q: Why do ducks have big flat feet?
A: To stamp out forest fires.

Q: Why do elephants have big flat feet?
A: To stamp out flaming ducks.
  #18  
Old January 5th 18, 12:33 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
Jan-Erik Soderholm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

Den 2018-01-05 kl. 04:36, skrev Roger Blake:
On 2018-01-04, chrisv wrote:
Might I say that was an awesome post, sir.


His post was sheer idiocy. CO2 is not a pollutant - period.


No, it is a natural part of the atmosphare, but it is a balance.
It has to be in the right proportions. To much (and in particual
if we continue to burn fosile fuels that ads carbone that was
bound millions of years ago) and the climate will be hurt.

Human caused "climate change/global warming" is junk science at
its worst. Even Reid Bryson, the scientist who was the father of
modern climate science, stated that it is "a bunch of hooey."


I could probably name the scientist that has the opposite view, but
the space in one posting would not be enough.

And why pick one that has been dead for 10 years? The views on global
warming has changed over the years and a lot has happend the last decade.

As I said, I absolutely refuse to reduce my own carbon emissions and
in fact continue to see ways to increase them.


OK. fine. You'll be sorry and your children will be hurt. But then, if
you could reduce your C02 emission, what would be the issue?

(Do you dumbass hippies
really believe that your stoopid windmills are solar panels are capable
of keeping people warm and alive in the deep freeze that so much of the
U.S. is currently experiencing?)


That weather phenomenon is probably also caused by the disturbed climate
caused by the CO2 emissions. So in the case of the current US weather
issues, you could say that it is, in a way, self-inflicted.

Anyway, you could probably start with more efficient cars, shutting down
all AC equipment and so on. This cold is just a temporarily storm and
has little to do with the overall climate issues. One can not use the
amount of snow on the back garden to judge about the climate at large.







  #19  
Old January 5th 18, 02:05 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
chrisv
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 649
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flaw forces Linux, Windows redesign

Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

Roger Blake wrote:

chrisv wrote:

Might I say that was an awesome post, sir.


His post was sheer idiocy. CO2 is not a pollutant - period.


How about you fill your room with CO2 for a couple hours, Roge?

rest of head-in-the-sand post snipped


It was the expected illogical, dishonest attack, from the
right-winger.

As if there isn't a middle ground between doing nothing at all and
(absurdly) depending entirely upon renewable energy.

Sheesh.

--
"Nevermind if the game is fair or not, it is the winning and the
losing that matters, eh?" - Rat
  #20  
Old January 5th 18, 02:45 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.vms
Alan Browne[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

On 2018-01-04 12:44, Roger Blake wrote:
On 2018-01-04, chrisv wrote:
This is ugly. Think of the large computing centers, for example
Google's data centers. Suddenly, they will need significantly more
CPU time, and thus electricity (and thus carbon), to get the job done?


Carbon is not a pollutant, except in the "minds" of left-wing loons,


When the truth is inconvenient, deny it.

  #21  
Old January 5th 18, 02:50 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
Alan Browne[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

On 2018-01-04 15:43, DaveFroble wrote:
chrisv wrote:
Designed By India H1B Engineers wrote:

Crucially, these updates to both Linux and Windows will incur a
performance hit on Intel products. The effects are still being
benchmarked, however we're looking at a ballpark figure of five to 30
per cent slow down, depending on the task and the processor model.


This is ugly.* Think of the large computing centers, for example
Google's data centers.* Suddenly, they will need significantly more
CPU time, and thus electricity (and thus carbon), to get the job done?


And once all the spanners are tossed into the works, which will slow
things down, what happens when new CPUs without the issues are
available?* Will computers forever be artificially slowed down?

A whole bunch of someones has seriously dropped the ball on this.
Protected memory should be just that, protected, with no way to avoid
the protection.


I presume it's an implementation flaw, not a principle-of-design flaw.
So once addressed, it should result in both proper memory protection and
increased performance in future cores. Alas (per the article) this
can't be addressed with a microcode patch.

--
“When it is all said and done, there are approximately 94 million
full-time workers in private industry paying taxes to support 102
million non-workers and 21 million government workers.
In what world does this represent a strong job market?”
..Jim Quinn
  #22  
Old January 5th 18, 03:02 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
Alan Browne[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

On 2018-01-04 07:56, Designed By India H1B Engineers wrote:
Performance hits loom, other OSes need fixes


Stunning. As someone else mentioned the electricity hit alone could be
enormous. Not just in data centres but across all intel users.

Class action suit against intel I think. This is on the level of the
FDIV bug of yore. Worse in some sense.

Must be full cigar time at AMD...

Curiously Apple claim that their mitigation of this has no measurable
effect on one aspect (CVE-2017-5754 or "rogue data cache load" - aka
Meltdown) of the flaw (using 3rd party benchmarking s/w); and "only"
2.5% slowdown in one of three benchmarks for the other flaws (
CVE-2017-5753 or "bounds check bypass," and CVE-2017-5715 or "branch
target injection.").
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208394

This makes me wonder if the article's claims of 5 - 30% slowdown (post
OS fix [Windows, Linux]) are exaggerated or if Apple's fix is either
miraculous or incomplete.

--
“When it is all said and done, there are approximately 94 million
full-time workers in private industry paying taxes to support 102
million non-workers and 21 million government workers.
In what world does this represent a strong job market?”
..Jim Quinn
  #23  
Old January 5th 18, 03:05 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.vms
Alan Browne[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

On 2018-01-05 08:59, Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-01-05 08:50, Alan Browne wrote:
“When it is all said and done, there are approximately 94 million
**full-time workers in private industry paying taxes to support 102
**million non-workers and 21 million government workers.
**In what world does this represent a strong job market?”
.Jim Quinn


The real world. Without consumers, there would be no "job market".


Double congratulations are in order Sir.

1) Replying to sigs is very lame,
2) Misunderstanding the fundamental meaning, moreso.

--
“When it is all said and done, there are approximately 94 million
full-time workers in private industry paying taxes to support 102
million non-workers and 21 million government workers.
In what world does this represent a strong job market?”
..Jim Quinn
  #24  
Old January 5th 18, 03:06 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
DaveFroble
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 31
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

Peter Khlmann wrote:
Roger Blake wrote:

On 2018-01-04, chrisv wrote:
Might I say that was an awesome post, sir.

His post was sheer idiocy. CO2 is not a pollutant - period.

Human caused "climate change/global warming" is junk science at
its worst.


Idiot


Don't feed the troll, opps, I just did ...

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail:
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
  #25  
Old January 5th 18, 03:06 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
Bill Gunshannon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 26
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

On 01/05/2018 08:50 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
On 2018-01-04 15:43, DaveFroble wrote:
chrisv wrote:
Designed By India H1B Engineers wrote:

Crucially, these updates to both Linux and Windows will incur a
performance hit on Intel products. The effects are still being
benchmarked, however we're looking at a ballpark figure of five to
30 per cent slow down, depending on the task and the processor model.

This is ugly.* Think of the large computing centers, for example
Google's data centers.* Suddenly, they will need significantly more
CPU time, and thus electricity (and thus carbon), to get the job done?


And once all the spanners are tossed into the works, which will slow
things down, what happens when new CPUs without the issues are
available?* Will computers forever be artificially slowed down?

A whole bunch of someones has seriously dropped the ball on this.
Protected memory should be just that, protected, with no way to avoid
the protection.


I presume it's an implementation flaw, not a principle-of-design flaw.
So once addressed, it should result in both proper memory protection and
increased performance in future cores.* Alas (per the article) this
can't be addressed with a microcode patch.


Sounds more like a "principle-of-design" flaw to me. Hard to
believe all those different companies all made the same mistake
building on a sound design.

bill

  #26  
Old January 5th 18, 03:10 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.vms
Alan Browne[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

On 2018-01-04 12:56, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
Den 2018-01-04 kl. 18:44, skrev Roger Blake:


Carbon is not a pollutant, except in the "minds" of left-wing loons,
so that is not of any importance. (I certainly refuse to lower my carbon
output. Environmentalist scum who desire to lower theirs are welcome to
stop breathing. However, I digress.)


The carbon you breath comes from the food you eat. No problem.

But much of the carbon that we let out comes from carbon from
millions years ago (fosile fuels). *That* is a major problem.


Indeed, we've "unlocked" sequestered carbon. I'm not especially against
that - but we've done it in such a recklessly fast (wasteful,
inefficient and polluting manner) that the "system" doesn't have time to
absorb the damage in a reasonable way.


Burning bilological fuels (that grow the last 100 years) is not
any problem either.

You other statements are purelly childish and uneducated.


+1 generally but -10 for attempting to help a hopelessly closed mind.

--
When it is all said and done, there are approximately 94 million
full-time workers in private industry paying taxes to support 102
million non-workers and 21 million government workers.
In what world does this represent a strong job market?
..Jim Quinn
  #27  
Old January 5th 18, 03:11 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.vms
Alan Browne[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

On 2018-01-04 22:36, Roger Blake wrote:
As I said, I absolutely refuse to reduce my own carbon emissions and
in fact continue to see ways to increase them. (Do you dumbass hippies
really believe that your stoopid windmills are solar panels are capable
of keeping people warm and alive in the deep freeze that so much of the
U.S. is currently experiencing?)


Oh dear. Another retard equating the weather to climate. Sad.
  #28  
Old January 5th 18, 03:15 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
DaveFroble
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 31
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
Den 2018-01-04 kl. 23:04, skrev Tim Streater:
In article , DaveFroble
wrote:

chrisv wrote:
Designed By India H1B Engineers wrote:

Crucially, these updates to both Linux and Windows will incur a
performance hit on Intel products. The effects are still being
benchmarked, however we're looking at a ballpark figure of five to
30 per cent slow down, depending on the task and the processor model.

This is ugly. Think of the large computing centers, for example
Google's data centers. Suddenly, they will need significantly more
CPU time, and thus electricity (and thus carbon), to get the job done?


And once all the spanners are tossed into the works, which will slow
things down, what happens when new CPUs without the issues are
available? Will computers forever be artificially slowed down?

A whole bunch of someones has seriously dropped the ball on this.
Protected memory should be just that, protected, with no way to avoid
the protection.


But AIUI, the protection isn't applied when the CPU does speculative
instruction execution. It's unclear why, though.


Becuse the designers, for performance reasons, has mapped kernel memory
into the user process address space and relies on the OS to check
protection before any kernel memory (or code) is accessed.

The issue with the current issues is that the hardware (the CPU) does
these accesses in hardware "under the hood" without control by the OS.

If you map your kernel memory in another way that uses the hardware
protection facilities, you are (as I understand) safe, at the cost
of worse performance to switch between user and kernel mode.



As I wrote, someone dropped the ball on this one.

Speculative execution is part of the HW, not software. It appears the HW
doesn't follow it's own rules. Or, perhaps I don't actually understand the problem?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail:
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
  #29  
Old January 5th 18, 03:20 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.vms
Alan Browne[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

On 2018-01-05 06:33, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
Den 2018-01-05 kl. 04:36, skrev Roger Blake:
On 2018-01-04, chrisv wrote:
Might I say that was an awesome post, sir.


His post was sheer idiocy. CO2 is not a pollutant - period.


No, it is a natural part of the atmosphare, but it is a balance.
It has to be in the right proportions. To much (and in particual
if we continue to burn fosile fuels that ads carbone that was
bound millions of years ago) and the climate will be hurt.

Human caused "climate change/global warming" is junk science at
its worst. Even Reid Bryson, the scientist who was the father of
modern climate science, stated that it is "a bunch of hooey."


I could probably name the scientist that has the opposite view, but
the space in one posting would not be enough.

And why pick one that has been dead for 10 years? The views on global
warming has changed over the years and a lot has happend the last decade.

As I said, I absolutely refuse to reduce my own carbon emissions and
in fact continue to see ways to increase them.


OK. fine. You'll be sorry and your children will be hurt. But then, if
you could reduce your C02 emission, what would be the issue?

(Do you dumbass hippies
really believe that your stoopid windmills are solar panels are capable
of keeping people warm and alive in the deep freeze that so much of the
U.S. is currently experiencing?)


That weather phenomenon is probably also caused by the disturbed climate
caused by the CO2 emissions. So in the case of the current US weather
issues, you could say that it is, in a way, self-inflicted.


Well, no matter how much they try, even the most pushy climate
scientists cannot link a given weather event to global warming. They
can state that there's "possibly"/"probably" some link, but not to a
causal level.

That said, the current east coast weather event is linked to a an
extreme jet-stream condition near Alaska and the bomb-cyclone
development. So one _weather_ scientist has said both are extreme and
_likely_ linked to climate change and that the combination of both at
the same time just exacerbates the whole.

Anyway, you could probably start with more efficient cars, shutting down
all AC equipment and so on. This cold is just a temporarily storm and
has little to do with the overall climate issues. One can not use the
amount of snow on the back garden to judge about the climate at large.


Exactly. Weather * Climate.


--
“When it is all said and done, there are approximately 94 million
full-time workers in private industry paying taxes to support 102
million non-workers and 21 million government workers.
In what world does this represent a strong job market?”
..Jim Quinn
  #30  
Old January 5th 18, 03:22 PM posted to alt.privacy.anon-server,alt.comp.os.windows-10,comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.os.vms
Jan-Erik Soderholm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flawforces Linux, Windows redesign

Den 2018-01-05 kl. 15:15, skrev DaveFroble:
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
Den 2018-01-04 kl. 23:04, skrev Tim Streater:
In article , DaveFroble
wrote:

chrisv wrote:
Designed By India H1B Engineers wrote:

Crucially, these updates to both Linux and Windows will incur a
performance hit on Intel products. The effects are still being
benchmarked, however we're looking at a ballpark figure of five to 30
per cent slow down, depending on the task and the processor model.

This is ugly.* Think of the large computing centers, for example
Google's data centers.* Suddenly, they will need significantly more
CPU time, and thus electricity (and thus carbon), to get the job done?


And once all the spanners are tossed into the works, which will slow
things down, what happens when new CPUs without the issues are
available?* Will computers forever be artificially slowed down?

A whole bunch of someones has seriously dropped the ball on this.
Protected memory should be just that, protected, with no way to avoid
the protection.

But AIUI, the protection isn't applied when the CPU does speculative
instruction execution. It's unclear why, though.


Becuse the designers, for performance reasons, has mapped kernel memory
into the user process address space and relies on the OS to check
protection before any kernel memory (or code) is accessed.

The issue with the current issues is that the hardware (the CPU) does
these accesses in hardware "under the hood" without control by the OS.

If you map your kernel memory in another way that uses the hardware
protection facilities, you are (as I understand) safe, at the cost
of worse performance to switch between user and kernel mode.



As I wrote, someone dropped the ball on this one.

Speculative execution is part of the HW, not software.* It appears the HW
doesn't follow it's own rules.* Or, perhaps I don't actually understand the
problem?


As I understand, as in Linux, the kernel memeory is mapped into each user
process memory space (for performance reasons). The speculative fetch done
by the hardware can read kernel memory directly. And when the protection
schemas detects this, the data is already in the internal CPU cache.

The solution seems to be to separate kernel and user memoery into separate
virtual memory areas. So a re-mapp of the memory mapping is needed each
time the process needs to read kernel memory, and that adds a perf cost.

And yes, it looks like different "levels" in the hardware are bit
out of sync...





 




Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off






All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2024 PCbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.