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#16
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Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview version 17692.1000 Breaks Classic Shell
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 03:52:15 -0500, GlowingBlueMist wrote:
Once again Microsoft has found a way to break the Classic Shell program that many people use as a replacement for Microsoft's much hated "Start" button at least on my two W10 Pro Insider machines. Why would anyone need Classic Shell anymore, given that Windows 10 has native Cascade Menus? (This question assumes that is all you want out of the Classic Shell software.) After "fighting" Microsoft for years, with both the Classic Shell and with WinAero, a few weeks ago I decided to try to learn how to implement the cascade menu within Windows 10 using only Windows-10-native commands. Windows 10 native Cascade Menus work just like Windows XP native Cascade Menus. There's no difference (AFAICT). It's pretty easy to set up if all you want is a cascaded menu that is just like the Windows XP cascaded menu used to be. There are a few tricks you need, but other than those tricks, it's 100% native Windows 10 Cascade Menu stuff. Here's a screenshot of my cascaded menu (which is still being organized). http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_my_win10_cascade_menu.jpg Notice there is absolutely no meaningful difference between the setup and operation of the native Windows 10 cascade menu from the native Windows XP cascade menu. Given that there is no difference, and assuming all you want from the Classic Shell is that Cascade Menu, why bother with Classic Shell? |
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#17
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Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview version 17692.1000 Breaks Classic Shell
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 07:15:20 -0400, Big Al wrote:
But I've now been using Win10's own start menu and find it isn't that bad. Sure it's nowhere near 7's but if you clean off the crap and organize your stuff in nice groups and widen the menu so you can get more icons, it's not bad, even usable. I mean how many programs does the average non-power user use? Why do we even need Classic Shell anymore? I also only recently decided to ditch Classic Shell and WinAero in order to learn how to wrestle Windows 10 native menus into doing what I want them to do. For example, here's my (currently unfinished) Windows 10 Start Menu: http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_win10menu808.jpg It has the exact same hierarchy as my (just as unfinished) Windows 10 Cascade Menu - which works exactly as the Windows XP Cascade Menu worked: http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_my_win10_cascade_menu.jpg Notice there is absolutely no meaningful difference between the setup and operation of the native Windows 10 cascade menu from the native Windows XP cascade menu. Given that there is no difference, and assuming all we want from the Classic Shell software is that Cascade Menu, why bother with Classic Shell? |
#18
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Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview version 17692.1000 Breaks Classic Shell
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 07:49:06 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote:
I find I can access items in the native Windows 10 start, much faster that I ever could in Older version of Windows start menus. One of the best things about Windows 10 Start is the absence of the old collapsing folder system. That was one of the hardest thing ever developed by Microsoft. For deep folders I always took two or more tries to get where I wanted to go. There are inherently three menu systems native in Windows 10. 1. The heterodox (alphabetical) Start Menu 2. The orthodox (tiled) Start Menu 3. The Cascade Menu (which works just like it did in WinXP days) All three work just fine, only differently. Here's an example of the Windows 10 native orthodox & cascade menu: http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_win10menu808.jpg Both are point-and-click setup operations, once you learn the tricks. Given that Windows 10 has the Cascade Menu native, I don't see any need for Classic Shell nowadays, if ... if all we want from Classic Shell is the cascade menu. Can someone tell me why people use the Classic Shell when Windows 10 already has Cascade Menus that work exactly like WinXP cascade menus worked? |
#19
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Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview version 17692.1000 Breaks Classic Shell
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 09:27:21 -0400, SilverSlimer wrote:
The start menu, as you say, is much better in 10 than it ever was I consider myself a menu expert, at least at the user level, where my assessment is that the Windows 10 orthodox start menu is an utter abomination, but, it certainly "can" be made to work reasonably well, as I show in this screenshot below... http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_win10menu808.jpg There are a few tricks, which I have written into the menu tutorial, which, once you know, it's pretty easy to manage that orthodox start menu. In addition, if you know the tricks, it's just as easy to manage the Windows 10 heterodox start menu (i.e., the alphabetical Start Menu). And, if you know a couple more tricks, it's very easy to manage the Windows 10 native Cascade menu such that it works exactly like the WinXP Cascade Menu worked (point and click edits and all that easy stuff). http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_my_win10_cascade_menu.jpg Given what I just said, can someone explain to me why anyone would use the Classic Shell today (and yes, I used Classic Shell in the past so I know it does more than just a Cascade Menu). |
#20
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Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview version 17692.1000 Breaks Classic Shell
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 09:32:46 -0400, Big Al wrote:
I think the process of change is the issue. While change certainly is a factor, it's LOST FUNCTIONALITY if you don't know how to get Windows 10 do have a Cascade Menu like Windows XP had. So that's MORE than just change... it's less functionality (and we all know there's almost nothing you can do on Windows 10 that you can't do on the earlier operating systems, as we have an entire thread on that topic alone). So it's not change. It's lost functionality that causes people to want to use the Classic Shell (IMHO). Luckily, nowadays anyway, Windows 10 has the *same* cascade menu that Windows XP had, so, if that's all anyone wants from the Classic Shell, then there's absolutely no reason for the classic shell (IMHO). In the end, the only change between the Windows XP style cascade menu and the Windows 10 style cascade menu is that you just have to know how to create the Windows 10 one, whereas in Windows XP, it sort of created itself. Other than that, what's the difference between the native Windows 10 cascade menu and the native Windows XP cascade menu? http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_win10menu808.jpg |
#21
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Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview version 17692.1000 Breaks Classic Shell
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 16:41:06 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote:
This is the native Windows 10 Start page. You can add or subtract the program icons on the Start page so the Start page shows only the things you want. You don't have to drag them. Go to the program either the list that is part of the start menu, OR to the actual file itself, right click and select pin to start. Doing the same thing you can pin them to the task manager. I have about 30 of my most frequently used programs on the start menu, and 10 of my main programs on the task bar. Please be careful with those instructions as they only work half the time. There are tricks that you need to know (and which I wrote up in my tutorial on the subject) to make those instructions work all the time. But without those tricks, those instructions fail half the time. |
#22
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Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview version 17692.1000 Breaks Classic Shell
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 13:30:11 -0700, mike wrote:
I don't understand why people get their panties in a twist over the start menu. There are three menu systems native on Windows 10: 1. The orthodox (tiled) start menu 2. The heterodox (alphabetical) start menu 3. The cascade menu Once you know a few tricks, they are all easy to manage (although the orthodox start menu has icon quirks as we've seen with the Tor Browser icon and the Opera browser icon being screwed up). Delete everything on it and drag program launcher links to it. It's even easier than dragging since most of the time you can "Pin to Start", and if you know a few tricks, then all of the time you can "Pin to Start". http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_my_win10_cascade_menu.jpg While the Win10 Start Menu is limited to 500 groups, the only major flaw in the Win10 orthodox start menu is the lack of more than two levels of hierarchy. Other than that, and other than the fact that icons don't have names when you shrink them, and that the icon database is binary (as Paul has found out for us) so you can't understand it easily - the Windows 10 orthodox start menu isn't all that bad. You just have to learn a few tricks to deal with it. I take it a step further and create a separate page that loads at boot and has all my program launchers on it. Why not just create a Windows 10 native Cascade Menu for your launchers? http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_win10menu808.jpg I use MS software only when freeware doesn't exist...and that's rarely. Me too. Other than MS Office, I can't think of anything that I can't do with freeware that I need to do on a home desktop computer. Can you? |
#23
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Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview version 17692.1000 Breaks Classic Shell
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 15:45:17 -0000 (UTC), Dave wrote:
I realize some people are stuck with windows due to their work situation and the vast majority of folks are stuck with windows because it came pre-loaded on their system. IMHO, Windows and Linux do the same things nowadays, except ... Except Microsoft Office. (Yes, I know about all those other "office" clones.) |
#24
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Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview version 17692.1000 Breaks Classic Shell
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 13:39:53 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:
I don't think they were entirely wrong in what they did, but they made a giant mistake in not providing both interfaces with a clear choice between them. I'm not sure what you mean by "both interfaces", but, as far as I know, Windows 10 natively has both the Cascade Menu and the Orthodox Start Menu (tiled menu) [and the heterodox Start Menu, aka alphabetical menu]. Here's the WinXP native and Win10 native Cascade Menu, side by side: http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_my_win10_cascade_menu.jpg I don't understand why people seem to be saying that Windows 10 doesn't have the *same* cascade menu that Windows XP had. Please explain, as I'm confused since my system is 100% native Win10 and it has both the orthodox (tiled) start menu and a cascade menu. [Am I the only one who is confused here as to why Classic Shell is needed?] |
#25
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Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview version 17692.1000 Breaks ClassicShell
On 06/22/2018 02:59 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 13:39:53 -0700, Ken Blake wrote: I don't think they were entirely wrong in what they did, but they made a giant mistake in not providing both interfaces with a clear choice between them. I'm not sure what you mean by "both interfaces", but, as far as I know, Windows 10 natively has both the Cascade Menu and the Orthodox Start Menu (tiled menu) [and the heterodox Start Menu, aka alphabetical menu]. Here's the WinXP native and Win10 native Cascade Menu, side by side: http://img4.imagetitan.com/img.php?image=18_my_win10_cascade_menu.jpg I don't understand why people seem to be saying that Windows 10 doesn't have the *same* cascade menu that Windows XP had. Please explain, as I'm confused since my system is 100% native Win10 and it has both the orthodox (tiled) start menu and a cascade menu. [Am I the only one who is confused here as to why Classic Shell is needed?] How did you get that cascade menu in operation. I've never seen this and I'd go as far to say that others haven't either. |
#26
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Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview version 17692.1000 Breaks ClassicShell
On 06/21/2018 09:37 PM, SilverSlimer wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 09:32:46 -0400, Big Al wrote: On 06/21/2018 09:27 AM, SilverSlimer wrote: On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 07:49:06 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote: On 6/21/2018 7:15 AM, Big Al wrote: On 06/21/2018 04:52 AM, GlowingBlueMist wrote: Once again Microsoft has found a way to break the Classic Shell program that many people use as a replacement for Microsoft's much hated "Start" button at least on my two W10 Pro Insider machines. The Classic Shell program worked just fine with Windows 10 Insider version 17686.1003.Â* Unfortunately I have just completed upgrading two machines running in virtual space on VMWare's Workstation to 17692.1000. Â*Â*The Windows Insider versions of W10 were run on two different AMD based computers with it making no difference.Â* On both W10 Insider machines the Classic Shell program works just fine the first time you try to use it but subsequent uses of the start button act strange until after 3 attempts to use the "Start" button and it no longer functions until you reboot the machine. Perhaps someone else will take up the gauntlet and continue working with the Classic Start menu program. If not, all is not lost, there are at least 6 other programs that may be able to take over the lead replacement start program. Here is a link to an article by Ben Stegner discussing the subject which also includes links to some of the possible replacements for Classic Shell. https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/window...u-alternative/ Unfortunately the author of the Classic Shell program has abandoned the software and moved on to other things so unless someone else steps in to adjust or fix that program it looks like Microsoft will finally be able to stop people from using it. Then again, who knows if the current problems Classic Shell has with the latest Windows 10 Insider edition will continue to exist when they actually release the next version or two to the public masses. In windows 8.1 that menu was a real bummer till they at least allowed you to boot to the desktop.Â* (I bought 8.0 on day one).Â*Â*Â* I found start8 to be very good and I hear now there is a start10.Â*Â* I would vote for that. But I've now been using Win10's own start menu and find it isn't that bad.Â* Sure it's nowhere near 7's but if you clean off the crap and organize your stuff in nice groups and widen the menu so you can get more icons, it's not bad, even usable.Â*Â* I mean how many programs does the average non-power user use? I find I can access items in the native Windows 10 start, much faster that I ever could in Older version of Windows start menus. One of the best things about Windows 10 Start is the absence of the old collapsing folder system. That was one of the hardest thing ever developed by Microsoft. For deep folders I always took two or more tries to get where I wanted to go. I honestly have to wonder why so many people are so attached to Windows 7 over 10. The start menu, as you say, is much better in 10 than it ever was and in terms of performance, there is little to no difference between 7 and 10. The new anti-malware system is also quite stellar, what with the controlled folders in particular. People need to let go of the past and embrace the future. I think the process of change is the issue. People in general, even me, don't like change. I saw some previews of Win10 before it's release. Buggy but still usable and I thought it was hell on wheels. I told every one of my friends that they and I should never use it. Now I'm quite satisfied that it works and have learned to use it with ease. Of course there's the disclaimer he "I use linux for everyday use and turn win 10 on about 3 hours a month." What do you need Windows for, exactly? Since Linux is able to read NTFS okay, it's not 100% foolproof IMHO. 1) When I do large re-arrangements of data on my 2nd HD, 1TB, I do it in windows. 2) Also I run a robocopy script to mirror that 1TB to another 1TB for backup. 3) Turbo Tax around Feb/Mar. 4) I still prefer Acronis Backup and I do it live rather than CD only since it makes sequential labeled files and cleans up extras if run live. 5) Quicken. 6) I like following along with some articles on Windows 10 while in Windows 10. I could just put all this in my VM of Windows 10 Insider and that would be it. But I'm not sure how sharing a drive in VM works since basically it's mounted in Linux as /media/alan/DRIVE and then WIndows reads it a D:\ through the VM. Seems like I'm still at the final end still using Linux NTFS routines to write that data to the drive? I could run acronis from my USB and that would take care of that. But there is little reason not to just keep 10 around for the "what the heck". |
#27
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Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview version 17692.1000 Breaks Classic Shell
On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 00:32:58 -0400, ...w¡ñ§±¤ñ
wrote: Ken Blake wrote: Why did Microsoft go from the Windows 7 interface to the 8.x/10 interface? I think because so many people use iPads, iPhones, Android Phones and Tablets, Microsoft saw that as the futures, and they wanted to be much closer to those. MSFT has been thinking about tiles in the UI for two decades. Just one example[1] - http://tinypic.com/r/28817x5/9 OK, but thinking about it and doing it are two different things. I still think that what I said above is true. |
#28
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Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview version 17692.1000 Breaks Classic Shell
On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 08:22:57 -0400, Big Al wrote:
[Am I the only one who is confused here as to why Classic Shell is needed?] How did you get that cascade menu in operation. I've never seen this and I'd go as far to say that others haven't either. It's actually trivial to set up Windows 10 native cascade menus, which is why I asked why anyone resorts to Classic Shell nowadays. To answer your question, I already wrote an entire very complete step-by-step detailed tutorial on exactly how to create the native Windows 10 Cascade Menu I showed in those screenshots. That tutorial had lots of screenshots, so it would be a waste to re-state what was already explicitly described (which took me *hours* to do for you). Here's the header information from that recent tutorial: From: Arlen Holder Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.os.windows.8 Subject: Tutorial for setting up a well-organized consistent efficient Windows menu system Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 08:52:36 -0000 (UTC) Organization: Mixmin Message-ID: Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 08:52:36 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: news.mixmin.net; posting-host="280c6f9239ac0f306a8fd5043aa4dba15cc65d6b"; logging-data="17885"; " For some reason, that tutorial shows up in my newsreader but not on the tribal archives at http://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-os-windows-10 Do you see that tutorial in your newsreader? Maybe something was wrong when I sent it? (as I don't understand why it's not in the tribal archives) I might resend it ... but can others look first? (Addendum: I just ran a search on http://al.howardknight.net/ for that message id and it shows up, so I'm not sure why it's not archived in the tribal archives...) http://al.howardknight.net/msgid.cgi?STYPE=msgid&A=0&MSGI=%3Cpfo1kd%24het%241 %40news.mixmin.net%3E |
#29
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Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview version 17692.1000 Breaks Classic Shell
On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 08:35:42 -0400, Big Al wrote:
On 06/21/2018 09:37 PM, SilverSlimer wrote: On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 09:32:46 -0400, Big Al wrote: On 06/21/2018 09:27 AM, SilverSlimer wrote: On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 07:49:06 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote: On 6/21/2018 7:15 AM, Big Al wrote: On 06/21/2018 04:52 AM, GlowingBlueMist wrote: Once again Microsoft has found a way to break the Classic Shell program that many people use as a replacement for Microsoft's much hated "Start" button at least on my two W10 Pro Insider machines. The Classic Shell program worked just fine with Windows 10 Insider version 17686.1003.* Unfortunately I have just completed upgrading two machines running in virtual space on VMWare's Workstation to 17692.1000. **The Windows Insider versions of W10 were run on two different AMD based computers with it making no difference.* On both W10 Insider machines the Classic Shell program works just fine the first time you try to use it but subsequent uses of the start button act strange until after 3 attempts to use the "Start" button and it no longer functions until you reboot the machine. Perhaps someone else will take up the gauntlet and continue working with the Classic Start menu program. If not, all is not lost, there are at least 6 other programs that may be able to take over the lead replacement start program. Here is a link to an article by Ben Stegner discussing the subject which also includes links to some of the possible replacements for Classic Shell. https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/window...u-alternative/ Unfortunately the author of the Classic Shell program has abandoned the software and moved on to other things so unless someone else steps in to adjust or fix that program it looks like Microsoft will finally be able to stop people from using it. Then again, who knows if the current problems Classic Shell has with the latest Windows 10 Insider edition will continue to exist when they actually release the next version or two to the public masses. In windows 8.1 that menu was a real bummer till they at least allowed you to boot to the desktop.* (I bought 8.0 on day one).*** I found start8 to be very good and I hear now there is a start10.** I would vote for that. But I've now been using Win10's own start menu and find it isn't that bad.* Sure it's nowhere near 7's but if you clean off the crap and organize your stuff in nice groups and widen the menu so you can get more icons, it's not bad, even usable.** I mean how many programs does the average non-power user use? I find I can access items in the native Windows 10 start, much faster that I ever could in Older version of Windows start menus. One of the best things about Windows 10 Start is the absence of the old collapsing folder system. That was one of the hardest thing ever developed by Microsoft. For deep folders I always took two or more tries to get where I wanted to go. I honestly have to wonder why so many people are so attached to Windows 7 over 10. The start menu, as you say, is much better in 10 than it ever was and in terms of performance, there is little to no difference between 7 and 10. The new anti-malware system is also quite stellar, what with the controlled folders in particular. People need to let go of the past and embrace the future. I think the process of change is the issue. People in general, even me, don't like change. I saw some previews of Win10 before it's release. Buggy but still usable and I thought it was hell on wheels. I told every one of my friends that they and I should never use it. Now I'm quite satisfied that it works and have learned to use it with ease. Of course there's the disclaimer he "I use linux for everyday use and turn win 10 on about 3 hours a month." What do you need Windows for, exactly? Since Linux is able to read NTFS okay, it's not 100% foolproof IMHO. 1) When I do large re-arrangements of data on my 2nd HD, 1TB, I do it in windows. 2) Also I run a robocopy script to mirror that 1TB to another 1TB for backup. 3) Turbo Tax around Feb/Mar. 4) I still prefer Acronis Backup and I do it live rather than CD only since it makes sequential labeled files and cleans up extras if run live. 5) Quicken. 6) I like following along with some articles on Windows 10 while in Windows 10. I could just put all this in my VM of Windows 10 Insider and that would be it. But I'm not sure how sharing a drive in VM works since basically it's mounted in Linux as /media/alan/DRIVE and then WIndows reads it a D:\ through the VM. Seems like I'm still at the final end still using Linux NTFS routines to write that data to the drive? I could run acronis from my USB and that would take care of that. But there is little reason not to just keep 10 around for the "what the heck". So what you're saying is that you'd be rid of Windows if Microsoft maintained a proper NTFS driver in Linux and some third-parties developed their software for Linux as well. That's a very comfortable position to be in. |
#30
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Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview version 17692.1000 Breaks Classic Shell
On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 13:50:56 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote: On Fri, 22 Jun 2018 08:22:57 -0400, Big Al wrote: [Am I the only one who is confused here as to why Classic Shell is needed?] How did you get that cascade menu in operation. I've never seen this and I'd go as far to say that others haven't either. It's actually trivial to set up Windows 10 native cascade menus, which is why I asked why anyone resorts to Classic Shell nowadays. To answer your question, I already wrote an entire very complete step-by-step detailed tutorial on exactly how to create the native Windows 10 Cascade Menu I showed in those screenshots. That tutorial had lots of screenshots, so it would be a waste to re-state what was already explicitly described (which took me *hours* to do for you). Here's the header information from that recent tutorial: From: Arlen Holder Newsgroups: alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.os.windows.8 Subject: Tutorial for setting up a well-organized consistent efficient Windows menu system Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 08:52:36 -0000 (UTC) Organization: Mixmin Message-ID: Injection-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 08:52:36 -0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: news.mixmin.net; posting-host="280c6f9239ac0f306a8fd5043aa4dba15cc65d6b"; logging-data="17885"; " For some reason, that tutorial shows up in my newsreader but not on the tribal archives at http://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-os-windows-10 That link resolves to a URI at www.pcbanter.net, a website that scrapes Usenet content and presents it as its own. You already know that. Surely, that isn't what you're referring to as a "tribal archive"? On a more serious note, if there's a "tribal archive" for Windows topics, I haven't seen it. Maybe someone should start one so you'll have a place to store your work products all in one place. |
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