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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist



 
 
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  #16  
Old December 27th 03, 02:07 PM
Kadaitcha Man
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

David Candy wrote:
Yes. You responded how a technical person would respond. Technically
correct. But a customer relationship nightmare.


I didn't quite put it like that, but you are correct.

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/
Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute


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  #17  
Old December 27th 03, 02:07 PM
David Candy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing amount =
of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The sell genuine =
MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except the company =
agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A large company pays =
least and probably doesn't supply a disk.

But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with new =
systems.

--=20
http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm
http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------
David Candy
http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros
---------------------------------------------------------------
"rifleman" wrote in message =
...
In ,
David Banks typed:
Hi

Snip
Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program
is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!

=20
Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?
=20
=20
--=20
(I may be wrong...I usually am....)
Google is your Friend
Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
www.gbpcomputing.co.uk
=20
=20
=20


  #18  
Old December 27th 03, 02:07 PM
Kadaitcha Man
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Ted" """""""""""""" wrote:

Gently on maybe one account, but not on the MS/MVP supporters like
the bint "Amethyst", who has no problem railing the meekest of help
seekers to becoming "mindless PC ****cases"! At least Mike just tells
them they are basically stuck in a "****case"!


Don't forget that the imaginary personality Amethyst projects into these
groups is the only one she has.

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/
Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute


  #19  
Old December 27th 03, 02:07 PM
rifleman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

In ,
David Candy typed:
No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing
amount of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The sell
genuine MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except
the company agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A
large company pays least and probably doesn't supply a disk.

But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with
new systems.

In ,
David Banks typed:
Hi

Snip
Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program
is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!


Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?


--
(I may be wrong...I usually am....)
Google is your Friend
Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
www.gbpcomputing.co.uk


Well in that case, if the OEM is Pro then backup IS installed by default (or
should be....)

--
(I may be wrong...I usually am....)
Google is your Friend
Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
www.gbpcomputing.co.uk



  #20  
Old December 27th 03, 02:07 PM
David Candy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

It is unless the OEM removed it (unknown to me - never heard of this)

--=20
http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm
http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------
David Candy
http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros
---------------------------------------------------------------
"rifleman" wrote in message =
...
In ,
David Candy typed:
No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing
amount of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The =

sell
genuine MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except
the company agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A
large company pays least and probably doesn't supply a disk.

But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with
new systems.

In ,
David Banks typed:
Hi

Snip
Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup =

program
is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!

Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?


--
(I may be wrong...I usually am....)
Google is your Friend
Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
www.gbpcomputing.co.uk

=20
Well in that case, if the OEM is Pro then backup IS installed by =

default (or
should be....)
=20
--=20
(I may be wrong...I usually am....)
Google is your Friend
Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
www.gbpcomputing.co.uk
=20
=20
=20


  #21  
Old December 27th 03, 02:07 PM
Mike Brannigan [MSFT]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

My resposne was certainly not menat to be glib or ridiculing the poster.

Looking at the reponses in (without the original poster text):--

This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)
---- A comment on how the poster expects to encourage response with an
derogatory opening line

Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.
---- Requesting "which" pages are problematic so I could see what the
problem was

Are you Save As. Web page complete.
This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to that
contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions to
creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.

Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the
content embedded.

On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced better
results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file)
---- options and questiosn about what the poster is doing and possible
alternatives and issues that might arise

The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
If you go to the Knowledgebase at
http://support.microsoft.com/
Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search
topics-
enter
"The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing
and Using ... The exact phrase entered

Produces one result
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589

Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??

---- A precise description of how to search for the error text he had and
the return KB article - question of is this relevant to his problem.

Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I found.
---- further request for information on what pages are problematic (since
the original poster is beinging to "rant" and did not provide any examples
of where the problem occured)

The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
---- Discussion of OEM support for OEM products

Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS
---- Further discussion of OEM support for OEM products

You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing systems or
non at all.
You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they
ship.
See comment above about OEM support.
If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements (including)
choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.
---- The OP was now "ranting" about Linux and not being able to purchase a
PC without Windows - I pointed out he has free choice of supplier and their
product offerings.

Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM.
---- Reinteration of OEM support issue (OP "rant"continues)

Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ? Was
it a grey import ?
If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem
(please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where you
are.)
---- OP goes off topic about Encarta and PID issues. Asked for
qualification of purchase status.

Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and
possibly modify or augment. ...snip
---- Further reinteration of OEM support issue (OP "rant"continues)

Do you mean here
http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
or
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx

Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.
---- OP mentioned Communities issues and requirement for "technical skill"
in using them

What would you prefer?
This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that the
technical community operate in.
---- OP commmented that newsgrpups were not modern - I requesed feeback and
commented on universal reach of newsgroups.

We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs provide
support for their OEM supplied products.
---- OP "rant" back on OEM and support - Further reinteration of OEM support
issue

There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
advice on setting up real newsreader programs.
---- OP stated level of "technology" require to access newsgroups.

Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and then
may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services. The
web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.
---- We provide links in many directions - basic web design good practice.

If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made no
effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or
otherwise) - then this is not our fault.
---- OP claimed article on Backup was too late for him. I pointed out that
Backup of his important data was his concern.

Yes - we do.
---- yes we care enough to spend our own time in these groups trying to help
out people, and offer service and support to them for the products they
purchase.


I stand by my repsond made in the face of a hostile rant.

To address your particular comments:-

You mention a "buck passing" culture that you claim "originates at
Microsoft". This is regarding OEM product. We are not passing the buck -
you get an OEM Windows at a greatly reduce cost compared to the retail
product - due to the fact that you are directly supported by Microsoft.
OEMs are also the only ones who know how and on what they installed the OS
and any other modifications settings add-ons they have included, so are best
placed to provide the initial support.

At no point did I say "you don't like it, you know what you can do'"
I did rightly suggest that as a consumer he has choice of vendor to purchase
his PC from.
People purchase complex and expensive products all the time - there usually
do this in an informed manner.

My mention of backup was related to his claim of loosing a years worth of
important data (no reason given) - the built in backup facility is included
in the retail installation of Windows XP or is usually in the VALUEADD
folder on a supplied OEM CD. If the user had been concerned about backing
up his data there are also a myriad third party products out there (consumer
choice at work) which he could have used over a year ago. If he did not
know or understand about backup he could have posted here too etc.

But, thank you David for your feedback on my repsonse to the original
poster.
--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

"David Banks" wrote in message
...
Hi

Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was intended I

do
think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the Windows
product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM.

All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the basics of
the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have never yet
had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both Microsoft
and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how anybody
without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the 'buck-passing'
atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.

There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will probably turn
out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as has been
done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib answers on

how
stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the response by
Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like it, you
know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, since

when
has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go elsewhere'

to
the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a bit

'high
minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that the
public have of the organisation.

I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing out the
obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the message 'read

my
enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked'

A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and energy)

but
I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then.

Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program is not
included on the standard XP installation!!!!

I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own
Customer
Services Handbook:-

'Dear Neil

I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex and
navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be

frustrating
but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the answers

to
your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope that
we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very frustrating
problem to you.
Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any further
queries or problems.'

David


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message
...
Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat" wrote in
message 48.16...
Hello, Microsoft.

I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I

am
supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
products.


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message
...
Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat" wrote in
message 48.16...
Hello, Microsoft.

I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I

am
supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
products.


This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)

Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated

graphics
in
certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be saved

to
the selected location."


Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.

Are you Save As. Web page complete.
This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to

that
contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions

to
creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.

Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the
content embedded.

On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced

better
results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file)

I have read the reason for this before, yet a
search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I

looked
for
the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what

the
error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to make

sure
I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet

Explorer
6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such luck.
Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge

base.
That would be helpful.


The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
If you go to the Knowledgebase at
http://support.microsoft.com/
Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search
topics-
enter
"The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing
and Using ... The exact phrase entered

Produces one result
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589

Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??


Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops,

hang
on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I WAS

IN
THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d

location"
has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the

page,
no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge

base,
unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update that

was
released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original

question
was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I mean,

I
know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able to

save
the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it

doesn't
work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having

broken
it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had broken

it,
you were planning on doing anything about it.


Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I

found.

And then I tried to ask you that.

I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed to

get
to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at

your
company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved

completely
impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company.

But
because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You

told
me to go to Dell. As it were.


The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is up

to
Dell to provide you with support.

Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No,

Dell
did
not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell?

Dell
doesn't know what you've done.


Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to

technical
data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an

OEM
machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the

only
ones who can provide the required support.
Dell do and can know "what we have done"

Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux.

Other
people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I

might've
liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some such
thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big

game
in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a deal

with
you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if I

buy
a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I would

like
Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I

cannot
get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.


You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing

systems
or
non at all.
You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they
ship.
See comment above about OEM support.
If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements

(including)
choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.

I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I

decided
to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I installed

it.
It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version.

Meaning
it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There

was
a
rebate. It was free, after the rebate.


Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM.

Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At

this
point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of
responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, you

great
jolly megalith, you.

I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours

every
damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally on

a
soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.



Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet Explorer"
(wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of

"Windows
XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you

don't
offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.

But...I bought it in this country.

Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once again.
Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." Okay.


Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ?

Was
it a grey import ?
If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem
(please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where

you
are.)

I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went

through
every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the

phone!
That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to

Dell
for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.


Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and
possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel to
provide the necessary support on the product.
They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and

also
to raise bugs etc should that be needed.

But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your

"communities"
for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full

of
bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like

most
of
your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit a
question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can

figure
out the answer to that.

Do you mean here
http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
or
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx

Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.

I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups.

Ninety
trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden,

cookie-
filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir,

doesn't
get much more modern than a newsgroup.


What would you prefer?
This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that

the
technical community operate in.

Of course, fewer and fewer people
are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use

newsgroups.
But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve

technical
help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or for

a
computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of your
software.


We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs

provide
support for their OEM supplied products.

There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
advice on setting up real newsreader programs.

Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support
Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour

before.
Elegant.


Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and

then
may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services.

The
web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.

And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped!

"Coming
Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how to

use
the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to

protect
essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last week,

when
the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and take

out
a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable

personal
information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't even
planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need me
bothering you with my little problems.


If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made

no
effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or
otherwise) - then this is not our fault.

(Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive

"is
not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay

because
I'm
smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing I

can
make my computer's life a little easier.)


ok

Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you
certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar

references
just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail account

just
so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the

useless
support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID

which
is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks for
that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of "which

of
these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell us

all
your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
"Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to

screw
people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name is
really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the

whole
world. Let's hope, anyway.)

But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've

taken
such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me

click
inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You

really
do
care!


Yes - we do.

Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.

Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?

Neil Obstat












  #22  
Old December 27th 03, 02:08 PM
Will Denny
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

"rifleman" wrote in message =
...
In ,
David Candy typed:
No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing
amount of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The =

sell
genuine MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except
the company agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A
large company pays least and probably doesn't supply a disk.

But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with
new systems.

In ,
David Banks typed:
Hi

Snip
Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup =

program
is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!

Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?


--
(I may be wrong...I usually am....)
Google is your Friend
Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
www.gbpcomputing.co.uk

=20
Well in that case, if the OEM is Pro then backup IS installed by =

default (or
should be....)
=20
--=20
(I may be wrong...I usually am....)
Google is your Friend
Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
www.gbpcomputing.co.uk


You don't seem to have the idea of what an OEM XP CD is. That =
particular OEM XP CD 'could' include all XP apps that are available on =
the 'upgrade' or full retail version. OTOH - that particular OEM XP CD =
'could' include nothing but the 'install' files. OEMs are allowed to =
include/exclude anything they like - unfortunately.

Will



---
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  #23  
Old December 27th 03, 02:08 PM
rifleman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Xref: kermit microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support:320724 microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics:121763 microsoft.public.win98.internet:23694

In ,
Will Denny typed:
"rifleman" wrote in message
...
In ,
David Candy typed:
No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing
amount of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The
sell
genuine MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except
the company agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A
large company pays least and probably doesn't supply a disk.

But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with
new systems.

In ,
David Banks typed:
Hi

Snip
Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup
program
is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!

Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?


--
(I may be wrong...I usually am....)
Google is your Friend
Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
www.gbpcomputing.co.uk


Well in that case, if the OEM is Pro then backup IS installed by
default (or
should be....)

--
(I may be wrong...I usually am....)
Google is your Friend
Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
www.gbpcomputing.co.uk


You don't seem to have the idea of what an OEM XP CD is. That
particular OEM XP CD 'could' include all XP apps that are available
on the 'upgrade' or full retail version. OTOH - that particular OEM
XP CD 'could' include nothing but the 'install' files. OEMs are
allowed to include/exclude anything they like - unfortunately.

Will



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.498 / Virus Database: 297 - Release Date: 08/07/2003


I'd be very surprised if vendor would dig around deep enough to remove the
backup utility - unless they also sell backup solutions ;-)

--
(I may be wrong...I usually am....)
Google is your Friend
Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
www.gbpcomputing.co.uk



  #24  
Old December 27th 03, 02:08 PM
Mister Charlie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist


"David Banks" wrote in message
...


I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own
Customer
Services Handbook:-

'Dear Neil

I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex

and
navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be

frustrating
but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the

answers to
your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope

that
we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very

frustrating
problem to you.
Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any

further
queries or problems.'

David

Let me assure you that that sort of prepackaged PR drivel is JUST as
frustrating as the runaround the OP describes.

Mike gave a direct answer to both the OP's hostility (understandable
given MS's and OEM's lack of any real help) and to his problems. Seems
like a perfectly good post to me.


  #25  
Old December 27th 03, 02:08 PM
Mister Charlie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist


"rifleman" wrote in message
...
In ,
David Banks typed:
Hi

Snip
Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program
is not included on the standard XP installation!!!!


Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then?


Not necessarily. However, on my e-machine OEM XP install there IS no
backup function, it's not included!



--
(I may be wrong...I usually am....)
Google is your Friend
Email address deliberately false to avoid spam:
www.gbpcomputing.co.uk





  #26  
Old December 27th 03, 02:08 PM
Ted
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist


"Kadaitcha Man" wrote in message =
r.org...
Ted" """""""""""""" wrote:

Gently on maybe one account, but not on the MS/MVP supporters like
the bint "Amethyst", who has no problem railing the meekest of help
seekers to becoming "mindless PC ****cases"! At least Mike just tells
them they are basically stuck in a "****case"!


"Don't forget that the imaginary personality Amethyst projects into =
these
groups is the only one she has."

LOL!

How could we? The **** remind us all of that trait she has, ad nauseam!


  #27  
Old December 27th 03, 02:08 PM
Testy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and have every
maker include a full CD.

Testy

"David Banks" wrote in message
...
Hi

Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was intended I

do
think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the Windows
product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM.

All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the basics of
the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have never yet
had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both Microsoft
and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how anybody
without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the 'buck-passing'
atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.

There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will probably turn
out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as has been
done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib answers on

how
stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the response by
Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like it, you
know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, since

when
has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go elsewhere'

to
the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a bit

'high
minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that the
public have of the organisation.

I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing out the
obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the message 'read

my
enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked'

A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and energy)

but
I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then.

Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program is not
included on the standard XP installation!!!!

I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own
Customer
Services Handbook:-

'Dear Neil

I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex and
navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be

frustrating
but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the answers

to
your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope that
we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very frustrating
problem to you.
Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any further
queries or problems.'

David


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message
...
Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat" wrote in
message 48.16...
Hello, Microsoft.

I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I

am
supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
products.


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message
...
Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat" wrote in
message 48.16...
Hello, Microsoft.

I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I

am
supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
products.


This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)

Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated

graphics
in
certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be saved

to
the selected location."


Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.

Are you Save As. Web page complete.
This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to

that
contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions

to
creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.

Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the
content embedded.

On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced

better
results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file)

I have read the reason for this before, yet a
search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I

looked
for
the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what

the
error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to make

sure
I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet

Explorer
6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such luck.
Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge

base.
That would be helpful.


The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
If you go to the Knowledgebase at
http://support.microsoft.com/
Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search
topics-
enter
"The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing
and Using ... The exact phrase entered

Produces one result
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589

Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??


Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops,

hang
on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I WAS

IN
THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d

location"
has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the

page,
no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge

base,
unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update that

was
released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original

question
was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I mean,

I
know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able to

save
the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it

doesn't
work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having

broken
it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had broken

it,
you were planning on doing anything about it.


Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I

found.

And then I tried to ask you that.

I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed to

get
to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at

your
company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved

completely
impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company.

But
because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You

told
me to go to Dell. As it were.


The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is up

to
Dell to provide you with support.

Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No,

Dell
did
not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell?

Dell
doesn't know what you've done.


Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to

technical
data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an

OEM
machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the

only
ones who can provide the required support.
Dell do and can know "what we have done"

Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux.

Other
people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I

might've
liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some such
thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big

game
in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a deal

with
you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if I

buy
a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I would

like
Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I

cannot
get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.


You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing

systems
or
non at all.
You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they
ship.
See comment above about OEM support.
If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements

(including)
choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.

I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I

decided
to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I installed

it.
It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version.

Meaning
it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There

was
a
rebate. It was free, after the rebate.


Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM.

Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At

this
point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of
responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, you

great
jolly megalith, you.

I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours

every
damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally on

a
soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.



Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet Explorer"
(wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of

"Windows
XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you

don't
offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.

But...I bought it in this country.

Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once again.
Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." Okay.


Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ?

Was
it a grey import ?
If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem
(please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where

you
are.)

I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went

through
every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the

phone!
That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to

Dell
for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.


Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and
possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel to
provide the necessary support on the product.
They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and

also
to raise bugs etc should that be needed.

But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your

"communities"
for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full

of
bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like

most
of
your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit a
question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can

figure
out the answer to that.

Do you mean here
http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
or
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx

Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.

I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups.

Ninety
trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden,

cookie-
filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir,

doesn't
get much more modern than a newsgroup.


What would you prefer?
This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that

the
technical community operate in.

Of course, fewer and fewer people
are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use

newsgroups.
But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve

technical
help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or for

a
computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of your
software.


We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs

provide
support for their OEM supplied products.

There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
advice on setting up real newsreader programs.

Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support
Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour

before.
Elegant.


Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and

then
may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services.

The
web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.

And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped!

"Coming
Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how to

use
the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to

protect
essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last week,

when
the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and take

out
a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable

personal
information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't even
planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need me
bothering you with my little problems.


If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made

no
effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or
otherwise) - then this is not our fault.

(Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive

"is
not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay

because
I'm
smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing I

can
make my computer's life a little easier.)


ok

Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you
certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar

references
just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail account

just
so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the

useless
support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID

which
is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks for
that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of "which

of
these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell us

all
your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
"Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to

screw
people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name is
really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the

whole
world. Let's hope, anyway.)

But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've

taken
such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me

click
inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You

really
do
care!


Yes - we do.

Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.

Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?

Neil Obstat












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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 7/10/2003


  #28  
Old December 27th 03, 02:09 PM
Will Denny
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

You don't seem to have the idea of what an OEM XP CD is. That
particular OEM XP CD 'could' include all XP apps that are available
on the 'upgrade' or full retail version. OTOH - that particular OEM
XP CD 'could' include nothing but the 'install' files. OEMs are
allowed to include/exclude anything they like - unfortunately.

Will

I'd be very surprised if vendor would dig around deep enough to remove =

the
backup utility - unless they also sell backup solutions ;-)


I'm never surprised as to what some of these OEMs do!!!!

Will



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  #29  
Old December 27th 03, 02:09 PM
Will Denny
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

A very good idea, Testy, but I'm not sure that MS would agree to that - =
a lot of cash can be generated by OEMs. MS, as any other, business has =
to make money... They are just about to allocate $10B dollars (US) to =
their share holders...

Will

"Testy" wrote in message =
.. .
Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and have =

every
maker include a full CD.
=20
Testy
=20
"David Banks" wrote in message
...
Hi

Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was =

intended I
do
think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the =

Windows
product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM.

All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the =

basics of
the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have =

never yet
had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both =

Microsoft
and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how =

anybody
without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the 'buck-passing'
atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.

There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will =

probably turn
out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as =

has been
done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib =

answers on
how
stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the =

response by
Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like it, =

you
know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, =

since
when
has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go =

elsewhere'
to
the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a =

bit
'high
minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that =

the
public have of the organisation.

I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing out =

the
obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the message =

'read
my
enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked'

A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and =

energy)
but
I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then.

Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program =

is not
included on the standard XP installation!!!!

I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my =

own
Customer
Services Handbook:-

'Dear Neil

I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
information you require. The Windows operating system is very =

complex and
navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be

frustrating
but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the =

answers
to
your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and =

hope that
we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very =

frustrating
problem to you.
Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any =

further
queries or problems.'

David


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in =

message
...
Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers =

no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use =

these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat" =

wrote in
message 48.16...
Hello, Microsoft.

I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the =

hell I
am
supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, =

worthless
products.


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in =

message
...
Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers =

no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use =

these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat" =

wrote in
message 48.16...
Hello, Microsoft.

I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the =

hell I
am
supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, =

worthless
products.


This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to =

provide
support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)

Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated

graphics
in
certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be =

saved
to
the selected location."

Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.

Are you Save As. Web page complete.
This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are =

saving to
that
contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have =

permissions
to
creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.

Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with =

all the
content embedded.

On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced

better
results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single =

file)

I have read the reason for this before, yet a
search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I

looked
for
the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of =

what
the
error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked =

to make
sure
I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be =

present
SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet

Explorer
6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such =

luck.
Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your =

knowledge
base.
That would be helpful.


The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
If you go to the Knowledgebase at
http://support.microsoft.com/
Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft =

Search
topics-
enter
"The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution =

containing
and Using ... The exact phrase entered

Produces one result
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=3D235589

Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you =

??


Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The =

"selecte(oops,
hang
on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE =

I WAS
IN
THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, =

Microsoft!)d
location"
has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save =

the
page,
no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your =

knowledge
base,
unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update =

that
was
released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my =

original
question
was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I =

mean,
I
know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being =

able to
save
the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But =

it
doesn't
work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, =

having
broken
it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had =

broken
it,
you were planning on doing anything about it.


Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article =

I
found.

And then I tried to ask you that.

I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm =

supposed to
get
to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative =

at
your
company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved

completely
impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine =

company.
But
because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. =

You
told
me to go to Dell. As it were.


The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it =

is up
to
Dell to provide you with support.

Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? =

No,
Dell
did
not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask =

Dell?
Dell
doesn't know what you've done.


Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to

technical
data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is =

an
OEM
machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are =

the
only
ones who can provide the required support.
Dell do and can know "what we have done"

Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like =

Linux.
Other
people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I

might've
liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or =

some such
thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the =

big
game
in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a =

deal
with
you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, =

but
something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. =

So if I
buy
a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I =

would
like
Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that =

way, I
cannot
get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.


You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing

systems
or
non at all.
You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs =

they
ship.
See comment above about OEM support.
If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements

(including)
choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.

I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So =

I
decided
to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I =

installed
it.
It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM =

version.
Meaning
it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. =

There
was
a
rebate. It was free, after the rebate.


Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product =3D support =

by OEM.

Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. =

At
this
point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any =

sense of
responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the =

world, you
great
jolly megalith, you.

I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at =

yours
every
damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or =

occasionally on
a
soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.



Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet =

Explorer"
(wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of

"Windows
XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, =

please)...you
don't
offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.

But...I bought it in this country.

Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once =

again.
Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." =

Okay.


Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you =

reside ?
Was
it a grey import ?
If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a =

problem
(please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state =

where
you
are.)

I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I =

went
through
every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on =

the
phone!
That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go =

to
Dell
for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.


Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their =

machines and
possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support =

personnel to
provide the necessary support on the product.
They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve =

and
also
to raise bugs etc should that be needed.

But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your

"communities"
for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page =

full
of
bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. =

Like
most
of
your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to =

submit a
question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you =

can
figure
out the answer to that.

Do you mean here
http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
or
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx

Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.

I mean, there was a little bit of information on your =

newsgroups.
Ninety
trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, =

script-ridden,
cookie-
filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir,

doesn't
get much more modern than a newsgroup.

What would you prefer?
This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community =

that
the
technical community operate in.

Of course, fewer and fewer people
are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use

newsgroups.
But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve

technical
help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, =

or for
a
computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of =

your
software.


We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs

provide
support for their OEM supplied products.

There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as =

well as
advice on setting up real newsreader programs.

Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP =

Support
Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an =

hour
before.
Elegant.


Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes =

and
then
may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support =

services.
The
web is not a linear construct people enter from various =

directions.

And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped!

"Coming
Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains =

how to
use
the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools =

to
protect
essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last =

week,
when
the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south =

and take
out
a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, =

irreplaceable
personal
information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I =

hadn't even
planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't =

need me
bothering you with my little problems.


If you have lost a significant amount of important data because =

you made
no
effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software =

(backup or
otherwise) - then this is not our fault.

(Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the =

drive
"is
not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay

because
I'm
smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like =

knowing I
can
make my computer's life a little easier.)


ok

Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, =

you
certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar

references
just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you =

won't
support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail =

account
just
so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at =

the
useless
support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport =

ID
which
is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. =

Thanks for
that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of =

"which
of
these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please =

tell us
all
your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one =

with
"Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use =

that to
screw
people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my =

name is
really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in =

the
whole
world. Let's hope, anyway.)

But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad =

you've
taken
such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have =

me
click
inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. =

You
really
do
care!


Yes - we do.

Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very =

soul.

Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?

Neil Obstat









=20
=20
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 7/10/2003
=20
=20



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.498 / Virus Database: 297 - Release Date: 08/07/2003
  #30  
Old December 27th 03, 02:09 PM
Mike Brannigan [MSFT]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

"Testy" wrote in message
.. .
Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and have

every
maker include a full CD.


Testy,

Is that just force the OEM to provide a full white box disk OEM CD ROM; or
end the whole program of OEM product requiring OEM support and actually ship
a Retail CD?
If the later - would the market stand the increase in cost (passed onto the
consumer) for the support of all those millions and millions of OEM
customers now having to come to Microsoft ?

If just force the OEM CD ROM in the package with the PC - then interesting
idea.
--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

"Testy" wrote in message
.. .
Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and have

every
maker include a full CD.

Testy

"David Banks" wrote in message
...
Hi

Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was intended I

do
think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the Windows
product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM.

All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the basics

of
the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have never

yet
had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both

Microsoft
and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how

anybody
without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the 'buck-passing'
atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.

There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will probably

turn
out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as has

been
done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib answers on

how
stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the response by
Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like it, you
know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, since

when
has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go

elsewhere'
to
the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a bit

'high
minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that the
public have of the organisation.

I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing out the
obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the message

'read
my
enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked'

A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and energy)

but
I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then.

Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program is

not
included on the standard XP installation!!!!

I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own
Customer
Services Handbook:-

'Dear Neil

I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex

and
navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be

frustrating
but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the answers

to
your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope

that
we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very

frustrating
problem to you.
Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any

further
queries or problems.'

David


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message


...
Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat" wrote

in
message 48.16...
Hello, Microsoft.

I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I

am
supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
products.


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message
...
Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat" wrote

in
message 48.16...
Hello, Microsoft.

I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I

am
supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless
products.


This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide
support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)

Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated

graphics
in
certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be

saved
to
the selected location."

Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.

Are you Save As. Web page complete.
This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to

that
contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions

to
creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.

Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all

the
content embedded.

On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced

better
results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file)

I have read the reason for this before, yet a
search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I

looked
for
the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what

the
error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to

make
sure
I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present
SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet

Explorer
6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such

luck.
Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge

base.
That would be helpful.


The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
If you go to the Knowledgebase at
http://support.microsoft.com/
Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base)
Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft

Search
topics-
enter
"The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution

containing
and Using ... The exact phrase entered

Produces one result
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589

Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ??


Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops,

hang
on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I

WAS
IN
THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d
location"
has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the

page,
no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge

base,
unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update

that
was
released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original
question
was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I

mean,
I
know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able

to
save
the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it

doesn't
work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having

broken
it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had

broken
it,
you were planning on doing anything about it.


Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I

found.

And then I tried to ask you that.

I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed

to
get
to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at

your
company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved

completely
impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company.

But
because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You

told
me to go to Dell. As it were.


The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is

up
to
Dell to provide you with support.

Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No,

Dell
did
not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell?

Dell
doesn't know what you've done.


Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to

technical
data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an

OEM
machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the

only
ones who can provide the required support.
Dell do and can know "what we have done"

Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux.

Other
people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I

might've
liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some

such
thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big

game
in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a

deal
with
you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but
something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if

I
buy
a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I

would
like
Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I
cannot
get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here.


You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing

systems
or
non at all.
You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs

they
ship.
See comment above about OEM support.
If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements

(including)
choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.

I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I

decided
to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I

installed
it.
It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version.

Meaning
it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There

was
a
rebate. It was free, after the rebate.


Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM.

Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At

this
point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of
responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world,

you
great
jolly megalith, you.

I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours

every
damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally

on
a
soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.



Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet

Explorer"
(wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of

"Windows
XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you

don't
offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.

But...I bought it in this country.

Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once

again.
Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country."

Okay.


Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside

?
Was
it a grey import ?
If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a

problem
(please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state

where
you
are.)

I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went
through
every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the
phone!
That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to

Dell
for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.


Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines

and
possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel

to
provide the necessary support on the product.
They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and

also
to raise bugs etc should that be needed.

But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your

"communities"
for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full

of
bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like

most
of
your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit

a
question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can

figure
out the answer to that.

Do you mean here
http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
or
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx

Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.

I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups.

Ninety
trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden,

cookie-
filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir,

doesn't
get much more modern than a newsgroup.

What would you prefer?
This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community

that
the
technical community operate in.

Of course, fewer and fewer people
are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use

newsgroups.
But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve

technical
help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or

for
a
computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of

your
software.


We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs

provide
support for their OEM supplied products.

There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as
advice on setting up real newsreader programs.

Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support
Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour

before.
Elegant.


Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and

then
may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services.

The
web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions.

And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped!

"Coming
Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how

to
use
the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to

protect
essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last

week,
when
the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and

take
out
a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable
personal
information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't

even
planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need

me
bothering you with my little problems.


If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you

made
no
effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup

or
otherwise) - then this is not our fault.

(Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive

"is
not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay

because
I'm
smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing

I
can
make my computer's life a little easier.)


ok

Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you
certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar

references
just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't
support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail

account
just
so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the

useless
support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID

which
is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks

for
that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of

"which
of
these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell

us
all
your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with
"Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to

screw
people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name

is
really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the

whole
world. Let's hope, anyway.)

But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've

taken
such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me

click
inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the
intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You

really
do
care!


Yes - we do.

Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul.

Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?

Neil Obstat











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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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