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Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK) and can help us get sending working?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 4th 21, 05:45 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 593
Default Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK) and can help us get sending working?

My blind friends have been using the "Eudora" email client for many
years, and it still works; however, it is beginning to have problems,
for example with security certificates. (It ceased development in 2006,
so it's not doing bad!)

Changing software is difficult for many of us, but more so for the blind
- they have learnt how to navigate round the software using keyboard
only. I was aware that Eudora was having problems, so was pleased to
read about Pandora, which was claimed to be very usable by those used to
Eudora, and still being supported/developed (it claims to work on at
least XP to 10, and I think some other OSs [Julia uses 7-64]); however,
I just told my friends about it, to let them if they wanted have a look
and decide. (We've been burned by a claimed replacement before.)

Julia has downloaded, installed, and configured it (she's quite computer
literate), and quite likes it; however, she can't get it to _send_
emails - and neither could I, in a Teamviewer session. (_Receiving_ is
working fine.)

I think the problem is that Pandora is more versatile, to cater for the
authentication requirements ISPs use these days. But we _think_ we've
tried all the permutations!

http://255soft.uk/temp/Clipboard01.jpg shows the configuration window,
as well as one of the error messages we get, in the log window at the
bottom.

There _seem_ to be three areas to play with, giving in theory 18
permutations:

"Authentication", which can be Basic, MD5-something, or OAuth2;

"Secure Sockets when Sending", which can be Never, If Available
(STARTTLS), or Always;

and "Include on global send", which is a tickbox.

Unticking the last seemed to prevent Pandora even trying to send when
told to (nothing appeared in the log window). I'm pretty sure I tried
all 9 combinations with it ticked.

Selecting OAuth2 generated an error message something like "unrecognised
authentication method".
TalkTalk's setting page at
https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/...3/ta-p/2204399
says don't use MD5, but I tried it anyway - I forget what error message
we got, but it didn't work.

Looking at what Julia had set in Eudora, "If Available" was set. As you
can see, that - with "Basic" - generated "5.7.0.7garbage
Authentication Credentials Invalid (TT300) [535]".

Some of the other combinations generated "Invalid Command" (I think with
"504").

You'd think the meaning of "credentials invalid" is obvious - username
or password are wrong; but (a) the same ones work in Eudora, (b) they're
working for _sending_.

Any thoughts? (Especially if you use Pandora with TalkTalk!)

(The above settings page just says "Outgoing START/TLS: Yes, Outgoing
Authentication: Yes" - nothing about which _type_ of authentication. But
the text below the table says don't use MD5, and selecting OAuth2 gave a
message implying that wasn't recognised, so Basic seems the most
likely.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Politics: A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles.
- Oscar Wilde, quoted by Ron Bauerle 2015-7-24
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  #2  
Old February 4th 21, 08:28 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,875
Default Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK) and can help us get sending working?

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

My blind friends have been using the "Eudora" email client for many
years, and it still works; however, it is beginning to have problems,
for example with security certificates. (It ceased development in 2006,
so it's not doing bad!)

Changing software is difficult for many of us, but more so for the blind
- they have learnt how to navigate round the software using keyboard
only. I was aware that Eudora was having problems, so was pleased to
read about Pandora, which was claimed to be very usable by those used to
Eudora, and still being supported/developed (it claims to work on at
least XP to 10, and I think some other OSs [Julia uses 7-64]); however,
I just told my friends about it, to let them if they wanted have a look
and decide. (We've been burned by a claimed replacement before.)

Julia has downloaded, installed, and configured it (she's quite computer
literate), and quite likes it; however, she can't get it to _send_
emails - and neither could I, in a Teamviewer session. (_Receiving_ is
working fine.)

I think the problem is that Pandora is more versatile, to cater for the
authentication requirements ISPs use these days. But we _think_ we've
tried all the permutations!

http://255soft.uk/temp/Clipboard01.jpg shows the configuration window,
as well as one of the error messages we get, in the log window at the
bottom.

There _seem_ to be three areas to play with, giving in theory 18
permutations:

"Authentication", which can be Basic, MD5-something, or OAuth2;

"Secure Sockets when Sending", which can be Never, If Available
(STARTTLS), or Always;

and "Include on global send", which is a tickbox.

Unticking the last seemed to prevent Pandora even trying to send when
told to (nothing appeared in the log window). I'm pretty sure I tried
all 9 combinations with it ticked.

Selecting OAuth2 generated an error message something like "unrecognised
authentication method".
TalkTalk's setting page at
https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/...3/ta-p/2204399
says don't use MD5, but I tried it anyway - I forget what error message
we got, but it didn't work.

Looking at what Julia had set in Eudora, "If Available" was set. As you
can see, that - with "Basic" - generated "5.7.0.7garbage
Authentication Credentials Invalid (TT300) [535]".

Some of the other combinations generated "Invalid Command" (I think with
"504").

You'd think the meaning of "credentials invalid" is obvious - username
or password are wrong; but (a) the same ones work in Eudora, (b) they're
working for _sending_.

Any thoughts? (Especially if you use Pandora with TalkTalk!)

(The above settings page just says "Outgoing START/TLS: Yes, Outgoing
Authentication: Yes" - nothing about which _type_ of authentication. But
the text below the table says don't use MD5, and selecting OAuth2 gave a
message implying that wasn't recognised, so Basic seems the most
likely.)


"If available, use StartTLS" means the client will use TLS if the server
reports back StartTLS in its keyword status response. This is a
drop-down list of choices which could be:

- Don't use a secure connection.
- Use TLS/SSL if available.
- Force use of SSL/TLS.

TLS 1.0 was no more secure than SSL 3.0 the latter of which got
deprecated because it was vulnerable. However, TLS 1.0 and SSL 3.0 are
incompatible because the handshaking changed. Then servers moved to TLS
1.1 and 1.2. Now they're moving to TLS 1.3. TLS 1.3 was not ratified
until 2018 although sometimes clients start supporting an RFC standard
before it gets ratified; however, TLS 1.3 came out long after Eudora got
abandoned.

In the past, there were also weak ciphers that got removed from
operating systems. Some were just deprecated, but that meant they were
headed to the chopping block. As I recall, the server will request a
cipher but will allow fallback at the client, but may still not support
what the client fallbacks to. It is still the choice by the server as
to which cipher it will allow.

https://www.acunetix.com/blog/articl...her-hardening/
https://electricenergyonline.com/ene...ak-Ciphers.htm

Been too long since I used Windows XP to remember just when Microsoft
pushed some Windows updates that removed only some of the weakest
ciphers. When the problem was discovered, their first recommendation
was registry edits to disable them. However, just because a weak cipher
remains defined in an OS doesn't mean a server will grant their use in a
session between client and that server.

You might have to use sTunnel as a local proxy through which you make
your secure connections with your clients that are too old to support
the later encryption schemes. Unlike Eudora, sTunnel is still
supported, and includes covering TLS 1.3. It operates as a local proxy:
you configure your client to locally connect to it using non-encrypted
connections, you configure sTunnel to listen on the ports the client
uses to it, and configure sTunnel to connect to the server. Hopefully,
once you get it setup, it runs fine; however, if they proxy becomes
unresponsive, all traffic through it is stoppped, and you won't get
anymore e-mail until you fix the setup. You're adding another link in
the chain between client and server.

https://www.stunnel.org/

If you don't want to go through all that hassle then you'll need to
consider if you really need encryption connections with an old e-mail
client. You could the other settings to see if those work. "If
available" means the client tries to detect and match what the server
reports it supports, but you might try "Force SSL/TLS" instead to always
have the client use TLS. If that doesn't work, you're stuck using no
encryption; however, some e-mail servers demand encrypted connections to
prevent sending login credentials in the clear.

As for OAUTH2 authentication, that uses tokens (refresh and access) from
the server. Once you get a token, the login credentials are no longer
used. However, the access token expires, and the refresh token (with a
far longer expiration) is used to get another access token from the
server supposedly without any user intervention. While this is supposed
to be transparent to the user when getting (refreshing) a new access
token, some clients don't perform an automatic and non-interruptive
refresh. Also, OAUTH2 was in its infancy back in 2006, and it was a
framework (OAUTH1 was a protocol), so different places implemented it
differently. Unless the client has a mean to allow the user to manually
initiate a refresh to get a new access token, the user has to delete the
account and recreate it in the client to force getting a new access
token. If the client isn't doing an automatic refresh to get a new
access token to replace the old expired one, or the refresh token itself
has expired and the client doesn't initiate a new request for them,
you'll have to see what, if any, means there are in the client to make
it get new tokens. You might have to delete the account in the client
(to eradicate the old tokens) and recreate the account and login to get
new tokens.

I just checked. OAUTH2 didn't come out until 2013. So, your client
must be using OAUTH1 although that didn't show up until 2009. Could be
the e-mail provider no longer support OAUTH1 (circa 2009). That your
client supports OAUTH any version means it must've gotten some
maintenance since 2006. If Eudora did indeed stop getting maintained
around 2006, I wouldn't trust its OAUTH to be reliable. Hopefully your
e-mail provider doesn't demand use of OAUTH, and they support just the
simple login schemes.

Presumably you already matched the settings in the client to those
specified by the e-mail provider at:

https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/...3/ta-p/2204399

Be sure to use the correct port for SMTP (sending). Port 25 was never
to be used by MUAs (Mail User Agents aka clients), and only between MTAs
(Mail Transfer Agents aka servers), but it got used anyway by clients.
Many e-mail providers moved to port 587, and that's what MUAs are to
use. There was a period where they allowed both during a rather long
grace period, but many have now completed switch to 587 for client
connections.

It's been a long time since it's happened to me again, but in the past
the provider wanted to ensure a human was using their e-mail service.
When using their webmail client, they would interrupt the login with an
interstitial page asking for validationg a human was using the service.
If validated, the login completed, and the webmail client showed the
e-mail page(s). Local e-mail clients aren't web browsers, so they
couldn't show the interstitial web page. The user had to use a web
browser to visit their account to login, get past the interstitial
security page, complete the login, and thereafter the local e-mail
client would start working again ... until later when the service
decided again it wanted to verify a human was using the service. Login
using the webmail client to see if the local client starts working
again.

Oh, did you ever try disabling e-mail interrogation by whatever
anti-malware software that is installed on the computer? That uses a
transparent proxy to interrogate the e-mail traffic. If that proxy
becomes unresponsive, you won't get or send any e-mails. If the proxy
takes a long time to interrogate the e-mail traffic, it will cause
timeouts at the client (on receive) or server (on send). Usually you
can just disable e-mail inspection in the AV to test if that is causing
the problem. However, likely the e-mail traffic still goes through the
proxy but without interrogation, and if there is a problem with the
proxy then there will be a problem with your e-mails. You could try
disabling e-mail scanning in the AV and reboot. If that doesn't work,
reconfigure the AV to *not* inspect the e-mail traffic (which is
superfluous, anyway, and provides no additional protection), reboot, and
retest without their proxy linked into the path for your e-mail traffic.
  #3  
Old February 4th 21, 08:45 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,687
Default Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK)and can help us get sending working?

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
My blind friends have been using the "Eudora" email client for many
years, and it still works; however, it is beginning to have problems,
for example with security certificates. (It ceased development in 2006,
so it's not doing bad!)

Changing software is difficult for many of us, but more so for the blind
- they have learnt how to navigate round the software using keyboard
only. I was aware that Eudora was having problems, so was pleased to
read about Pandora, which was claimed to be very usable by those used to
Eudora, and still being supported/developed (it claims to work on at
least XP to 10, and I think some other OSs [Julia uses 7-64]); however,
I just told my friends about it, to let them if they wanted have a look
and decide. (We've been burned by a claimed replacement before.)

Julia has downloaded, installed, and configured it (she's quite computer
literate), and quite likes it; however, she can't get it to _send_
emails - and neither could I, in a Teamviewer session. (_Receiving_ is
working fine.)

I think the problem is that Pandora is more versatile, to cater for the
authentication requirements ISPs use these days. But we _think_ we've
tried all the permutations!

http://255soft.uk/temp/Clipboard01.jpg shows the configuration window,
as well as one of the error messages we get, in the log window at the
bottom.

There _seem_ to be three areas to play with, giving in theory 18
permutations:

"Authentication", which can be Basic, MD5-something, or OAuth2;

"Secure Sockets when Sending", which can be Never, If Available
(STARTTLS), or Always;

and "Include on global send", which is a tickbox.

Unticking the last seemed to prevent Pandora even trying to send when
told to (nothing appeared in the log window). I'm pretty sure I tried
all 9 combinations with it ticked.

Selecting OAuth2 generated an error message something like "unrecognised
authentication method".
TalkTalk's setting page at
https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/...3/ta-p/2204399

says don't use MD5, but I tried it anyway - I forget what error message
we got, but it didn't work.

Looking at what Julia had set in Eudora, "If Available" was set. As you
can see, that - with "Basic" - generated "5.7.0.7garbage
Authentication Credentials Invalid (TT300) [535]".

Some of the other combinations generated "Invalid Command" (I think with
"504").

You'd think the meaning of "credentials invalid" is obvious - username
or password are wrong; but (a) the same ones work in Eudora, (b) they're
working for _sending_.

Any thoughts? (Especially if you use Pandora with TalkTalk!)

(The above settings page just says "Outgoing START/TLS: Yes, Outgoing
Authentication: Yes" - nothing about which _type_ of authentication. But
the text below the table says don't use MD5, and selecting OAuth2 gave a
message implying that wasn't recognised, so Basic seems the most likely.)


I was going to say "try 465", but I see here it has not been
blessed by the Pope. Even though I was using it inside my test VM
a day or two ago.

https://www.mailgun.com/blog/which-s...ts-25-465-587/

As for your Pandora pic, I like that it has a log output. But the problem
with logging, is sometimes the tool tells a porky, and the actual
root cause, isn't what the message said. I interpret what I'm seeing
there as "Something went wrong...", but it's hard to tell whether
it was a STARTTLS sequence, a TLS sequence, the actual username/password
or what. You would think that pulling mail tested the username/password,
but of course the two pieces of equipment (SMTP end), might be at the
other end of the hall, and the two machines might have their own
(different) authentication tables. You always have to plan for the
unlikely situations, when dealing with the Internet.

You can test with Telnet or maybe even Putty, as long as
the tool you select supports SSL/TLS. I think my attempts
to carry out a telnet-esque session, failed. And it's probably
because the tool didn't support a relatively recent TLS flavor.
Oh, I remember what it was. The mail client I was testing,
was getting snotty about the certificate, whereas Thunderbird
said "OK, if we have to...". Some clients would say
"your certificate smells, would you like to accept
the consequences and get on with life?". When the prompt is
a lie, and the client has no intention of accepting
*anything* that smells. Consequently, even if you click
"Yes, go right ahead and use the smelly thing", your connection
will not be allowed on your end.

Wouldn't it be neat, if logs logged everything ?
I must be delusional or something. Not gonna happen.
Haven't seen that since the excellent logging on PPP dialup.

Paul



  #4  
Old February 5th 21, 03:51 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 593
Default Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK) and can help us get sending working?

On Thu, 4 Feb 2021 at 14:28:18, VanguardLH wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

My blind friends have been using the "Eudora" email client for many
years, and it still works; however, it is beginning to have problems,

[]
read about Pandora, which was claimed to be very usable by those used to

[]
I just told my friends about it, to let them if they wanted have a look
and decide. (We've been burned by a claimed replacement before.)

Julia has downloaded, installed, and configured it (she's quite computer
literate), and quite likes it; however, she can't get it to _send_

[]
http://255soft.uk/temp/Clipboard01.jpg shows the configuration window,

[]
"If available, use StartTLS" means the client will use TLS if the server
reports back StartTLS in its keyword status response. This is a
drop-down list of choices which could be:

- Don't use a secure connection.
- Use TLS/SSL if available.
- Force use of SSL/TLS.


That's almost exactly the three options offered BY PANDORA, which is
what we are trying to use. Eudora is working fine, and is using a
setting with "if available" in it.
[]
before it gets ratified; however, TLS 1.3 came out long after Eudora got
abandoned.


I appreciate the effort you've put into explaining, but a lot of it
seems to be the wrong way round: our situation is that Eudora - the
ancient client - IS WORKING, but Pandora - the new one we're trying to
switch to, for a bit of future-proofing - ISN'T. (For sending. It's
receiving fine.)
[]
Been too long since I used Windows XP to remember just when Microsoft
pushed some Windows updates that removed only some of the weakest
ciphers. When the problem was discovered, their first recommendation

[]
You might have to use sTunnel as a local proxy through which you make
your secure connections with your clients that are too old to support
the later encryption schemes. Unlike Eudora, sTunnel is still


No, old Eudora is working fine; newer Pandora isn't. It's Pandora we'd
like to use, though.
[]
If you don't want to go through all that hassle then you'll need to
consider if you really need encryption connections with an old e-mail
client. You could the other settings to see if those work. "If


See above!
[]
As for OAUTH2 authentication, that uses tokens (refresh and access) from
the server. Once you get a token, the login credentials are no longer
used. However, the access token expires, and the refresh token (with a
far longer expiration) is used to get another access token from the
server supposedly without any user intervention. While this is supposed


Well, when I tried it, the log message implied it wasn't recognised
(though Paul says logs don't necessarily tell the truth). However, I
don't think Eudora has OAuth2, and that's working, so presumably
TalkTalk don't require it.
[]
I just checked. OAUTH2 didn't come out until 2013. So, your client


So Eudora - which is working - is definitely not using it, so therefore
TalkTalk don't require it.

must be using OAUTH1 although that didn't show up until 2009. Could be
the e-mail provider no longer support OAUTH1 (circa 2009). That your
client supports OAUTH any version means it must've gotten some
maintenance since 2006. If Eudora did indeed stop getting maintained
around 2006, I wouldn't trust its OAUTH to be reliable. Hopefully your
e-mail provider doesn't demand use of OAUTH, and they support just the
simple login schemes.


Eudora is working fine; I don't think it's had any patch. (I think we
might have had something to get round problems of security certificates,
but I don't think that had anything to do with login authentifications.)

Pandora - which I think is more or less "current" - is not working. I
think it's just a setting combination we're not using, but we haven't
hit it yet.

Presumably you already matched the settings in the client to those
specified by the e-mail provider at:

https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/...s-IMAP-amp-POP
3/ta-p/2204399


Have you looked at that, and at http://255soft.uk/temp/Clipboard01.jpg?
If you can spot something we haven't "matched", please tell me; the only
area I'm unsure of is that talktalk just show "Yes" for some settings,
whereas Pandora has more options.

Be sure to use the correct port for SMTP (sending). Port 25 was never
to be used by MUAs (Mail User Agents aka clients), and only between MTAs
(Mail Transfer Agents aka servers), but it got used anyway by clients.
Many e-mail providers moved to port 587, and that's what MUAs are to
use. There was a period where they allowed both during a rather long
grace period, but many have now completed switch to 587 for client
connections.


We're using 587.

It's been a long time since it's happened to me again, but in the past
the provider wanted to ensure a human was using their e-mail service.
When using their webmail client, they would interrupt the login with an
interstitial page asking for validationg a human was using the service.


Old Eudora is working, so I don't think a check of that nature is being
done.
[]
I don't think talktalk would anyway - they're one of the UK's biggest
ISPs, and though like everyone else I think they'd love us all to use
webmail or at least IMAP, I suspect they have enough customers using
clients (such as Thunderbird) that there'd be quite a stink if they did
that sort of thing. (POP/IMAP's irrelevant anyway as that's for
receiving, which is working; it's sending, presumably with SMTP as
that's in the server name, that isn't - in Pandora.)

Oh, did you ever try disabling e-mail interrogation by whatever
anti-malware software that is installed on the computer? That uses a
transparent proxy to interrogate the e-mail traffic. If that proxy
becomes unresponsive, you won't get or send any e-mails. If the proxy
takes a long time to interrogate the e-mail traffic, it will cause
timeouts at the client (on receive) or server (on send). Usually you
can just disable e-mail inspection in the AV to test if that is causing
the problem. However, likely the e-mail traffic still goes through the
proxy but without interrogation, and if there is a problem with the
proxy then there will be a problem with your e-mails. You could try
disabling e-mail scanning in the AV and reboot. If that doesn't work,
reconfigure the AV to *not* inspect the e-mail traffic (which is
superfluous, anyway, and provides no additional protection), reboot, and
retest without their proxy linked into the path for your e-mail traffic.


I can't remember if Julia has email scanning - I think not - or any
other intermediary (she used Mailwasher at one point I do remember); but
whether she is or not, if that was the problem, I presume it would stop
old Eudora sending, which it isn't doing.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die -
attributed to Carrie Fisher by Gareth McLean, in Radio Times 28 January-3
February 2012
  #5  
Old February 5th 21, 04:15 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 593
Default Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK) and can help us get sending working?

On Thu, 4 Feb 2021 at 15:45:50, Paul wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
My blind friends have been using the "Eudora" email client for many

[]
http://255soft.uk/temp/Clipboard01.jpg shows the configuration
window, as well as one of the error messages we get, in the log
window at the bottom.

[]
TalkTalk's setting page at

https://community.talktalk.co.uk/t5/...gs-IMAP-amp-PO
P3/ta-p/2204399 says don't use MD5, but I tried it anyway - I


[Rest snipped. Basically, she can send email with ancient Eudora, but
not with more recent Pandora. (Receiving is working fine.)]
[]
As for your Pandora pic, I like that it has a log output. But the problem
with logging, is sometimes the tool tells a porky, and the actual
root cause, isn't what the message said. I interpret what I'm seeing
there as "Something went wrong...", but it's hard to tell whether
it was a STARTTLS sequence, a TLS sequence, the actual username/password
or what. You would think that pulling mail tested the username/password,
but of course the two pieces of equipment (SMTP end), might be at the
other end of the hall, and the two machines might have their own
(different) authentication tables. You always have to plan for the
unlikely situations, when dealing with the Internet.


Indeed - though Julia is using the same username/password combination
for both sending and receiving in Eudora, and both are working there. So
an authentication setting _seems_ to be the most likely problem.

FWIW, I've seen at least three error message types in the log window:
the shown "Authentication Credentials Invalid (TT300) [535]", one
something like "Invalid Command" (I think with "504"), and something
like authentication type not recognised (I think that was when trying
with OAuth2). I take on board your point that the logging message might
not be correct. [Do the numbers mean anything?] Repeating the send
attempt with the same settings always gave the same error message.

You can test with Telnet or maybe even Putty, as long as


_You_ can; I've used Telnet in the past, and I actually like "talking
direct to the server", but not for decades! (Not to mention this would
be via a TeamViewer connection.)

the tool you select supports SSL/TLS. I think my attempts
to carry out a telnet-esque session, failed. And it's probably
because the tool didn't support a relatively recent TLS flavor.
Oh, I remember what it was. The mail client I was testing,
was getting snotty about the certificate, whereas Thunderbird
said "OK, if we have to...". Some clients would say
"your certificate smells, would you like to accept
the consequences and get on with life?". When the prompt is
a lie, and the client has no intention of accepting
*anything* that smells. Consequently, even if you click
"Yes, go right ahead and use the smelly thing", your connection
will not be allowed on your end.


I would _imagine_ any certificate problem would show up more in the old
Eudora than the newer Pandora.

Wouldn't it be neat, if logs logged everything ?


Yes!

I must be delusional or something. Not gonna happen.
Haven't seen that since the excellent logging on PPP dialup.

Paul

(I think Turnpike's log logs pretty much everything; it certainly
generates enough.)


3
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want.
CALVIN AND HOBBES, according to a @qikipedia tweet 2019-9-9.
  #6  
Old February 5th 21, 04:11 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
jetjock[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK) and can help us get sending working?

The author has marked this message not to be archived. This post will be deleted on February 12, 2021.

On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 04:15:07 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

SNIP


You can try contacting Brana directly at
with words "Bug Report" included in message subject.
The report must contain enough information to reproduce the problem.
He is very good about answering.

You can also try posting in the forum at
https://pandoramail.forumotion.net/f2-pandora-support

Best of luck!

jetjock

  #7  
Old February 5th 21, 11:05 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 593
Default Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK) and can help us get sending working?

On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 at 10:11:20, jetjock wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 04:15:07 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

SNIP


You can try contacting Brana directly at
with words "Bug Report" included in message subject.
The report must contain enough information to reproduce the problem.
He is very good about answering.


I always feel guilty about asking for help when only using the free
version, but I may try, thanks.

You can also try posting in the forum at
https://pandoramail.forumotion.net/f2-pandora-support

Might try that too, though I'm not keen on fora.

Best of luck!

jetjock

Thanks!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I use science as my model here. We will crawl toward the truth without ever
knowing if we are all the way there. - Scott Adams, 2015-3-20
  #8  
Old February 6th 21, 05:50 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
jetjock[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK) and can help us get sending working?

The author has marked this message not to be archived. This post will be deleted on February 13, 2021.

On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 23:05:46 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 at 10:11:20, jetjock wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
On Fri, 5 Feb 2021 04:15:07 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

SNIP


You can try contacting Brana directly at
with words "Bug Report" included in message subject.
The report must contain enough information to reproduce the problem.
He is very good about answering.


I always feel guilty about asking for help when only using the free
version, but I may try, thanks.


That's all I have and he was very generous with his help. Hope that
assuages your guilt some! "-)

You can also try posting in the forum at
https://pandoramail.forumotion.net/f2-pandora-support

Might try that too, though I'm not keen on fora.


I don't like forums either, but you may find something there. Best
thing about them is the price. ;-)

Best of luck!

jetjock

Thanks!


jetjock

  #9  
Old February 23rd 21, 03:50 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,875
Default Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK) and can help us get sending working?

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

Julia has downloaded, installed, and configured [Pandora Mail]
(she's quite computer literate), and quite likes it; however, she
can't get it to _send_

http://255soft.uk/temp/Clipboard01.jpg shows the configuration window,


"If available, use StartTLS" means the client will use TLS if the
server reports back StartTLS in its keyword status response. This
is a drop-down list of choices which could be:

- Don't use a secure connection.
- Use TLS/SSL if available.
- Force use of SSL/TLS.


That's almost exactly the three options offered BY PANDORA, which is
what we are trying to use. Eudora is working fine, and is using a
setting with "if available" in it.


What are the choices for "Authentication"? You show it is set to Basic,
but I don't know what it means in that program. Does it include Help to
tell you what are the available choices for Authentication?

I appreciate the effort you've put into explaining, but a lot of it
seems to be the wrong way round: our situation is that Eudora - the
ancient client - IS WORKING, but Pandora - the new one we're trying to
switch to, for a bit of future-proofing - ISN'T. (For sending. It's
receiving fine.)


If you haven't paid for it, perhaps "Demo-Mode" does not include
sending.

Also, it says it is using the OpenSSL library, but doesn't mention which
version. As I recall, OpenSSL had to get updated due to security issues
probably related to using old or deprecated ciphers. Other than
mentioning it uses OpenSSL, it gives to accredidation to OpenSSL or
mention which version it incorporates. As OpenSSL gets updated, so
should also the software that incorporates it. The only mention of
OpenSSL in Pandora's release notes is way back to Pandora 1.0.1 (no
datestamp, but suspect that was a long time ago).

Note: The datestamp at the end of the Release History web page is for
when the content got updated, not the datestamp of any particular
version of the Pandora program.

From its forum site, the earliest forum post is dated over 4 years ago,
but no mention of the Pandora Mail version. A search on "openssl"
returns nothing, so no one has discussed it in their forums. Still no
idea if OpenSSL got updated in Pandora Mail.

If you don't want to go through all that hassle then you'll need to
consider if you really need encryption connections with an old e-mail
client. You could the other settings to see if those work. "If


See above!


And what happens when you chose to /not/ use StartTLS (and establish a
non-encrypted connection to the mail servers)?

So Eudora - which is working - is definitely not using it, so therefore
TalkTalk don't require it.


Pandora was written later (or copied from Eudora code). That Eudora is
not using OAUTH2 doesn't mean that Pandora is also not using OAUTH2.

Does Eudora have a StartTLS (try to use TLS) option, or is it missing in
Eudora? You show Pandora is configured to try using TLS. Sorry,
without a list of Authentication choices, I don't know what Basic might
be when compared to the other choices.

What happens when you configure Pandora Mail to /not/ use TLS? Does
TalkTalk allow non-encrypted connections to its mail servers? Some now
demand an encrypted connection.

....

Sorry for the late reply. The only "Pandora" that I know of is the
music streaming service (pandora.com). After a search, I found:

https://www.drivehq.com/web/brana/pandora.htm

Pandora is not the same as Pandora Mail. Yep, confusing naming and
possibly copyright infringement, especially since users will likely
shorten Pandora Mail to just Pandora.

When I look at drivehq's home page, I don't see anything of them doing
e-mail services. From their Software page, their software is oriented
to their file storage services, plus they offer software from other 3rd
parties (e.g., Filezilla). An e-mail client seems a complete departure
from what services and other software they provide. Makes me wonder
where they stole, er, acquired the code. From what I found, "Pandora
Mail, an e-mail client intended to replicate the functionality of
Eudora", but no mention if that was for the classic version or the
Thunderbird fork. Wonder how much of the original code was borrowed.

It is a shareware program. Did you pay ($14) to uncripple it?

"Pandora Mail is a shareware program. This means that you can use it
with the limited set of features for free (Demo-Mode), or register the
program and gain the access to the full set of features (Full-Mode)."
I didn't see a free-vs-paid web page delineating just what is "limited"
in the free version. The Pandora subsite at drivehq.com site has a
forum link pointing to:

https://pandoramail.forumotion.net/

Your error message says "Authentication failed". Have you tried using
TalkTalk's webmail client to make sure you can send using your account
with their webmail client? Copy the username and password fields from
Pandora to login using TalkTalk's webmail client. That would eliminate
any accidental inclusion of space characters that aren't shown to you.

Did you yet test with your anti-virus software /not/ intercepting and
interrogating your e-mail traffic? In your AV, configure it to /not/
interrogate your e-mail traffic. That the AV may not interrogate
Eudora's e-mail traffic does not mandate it isn't interrogating e-mail
traffic for Pandora Mail. Just discard the superfluous e-mail scanner
in whatever AV is used.
  #10  
Old February 23rd 21, 06:17 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.comp.os.windows-10,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 593
Default Anyone using "Pandora" email client with "TalkTalk" ISP (UK) and can help us get sending working?

Answered for academic interest only. Reason at or near end.

On Tue, 23 Feb 2021 at 09:50:05, VanguardLH wrote (my
responses usually follow points raised):
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:

Julia has downloaded, installed, and configured [Pandora Mail]
(she's quite computer literate), and quite likes it; however, she
can't get it to _send_

http://255soft.uk/temp/Clipboard01.jpg shows the configuration window,

"If available, use StartTLS" means the client will use TLS if the
server reports back StartTLS in its keyword status response. This
is a drop-down list of choices which could be:

- Don't use a secure connection.
- Use TLS/SSL if available.
- Force use of SSL/TLS.


That's almost exactly the three options offered BY PANDORA, which is
what we are trying to use. Eudora is working fine, and is using a
setting with "if available" in it.


What are the choices for "Authentication"? You show it is set to Basic,
but I don't know what it means in that program. Does it include Help to
tell you what are the available choices for Authentication?


IIRR, they were Basic, something like (but not) W95 (that TalkTalk's
page said not to use), and OAuth2.

I appreciate the effort you've put into explaining, but a lot of it
seems to be the wrong way round: our situation is that Eudora - the
ancient client - IS WORKING, but Pandora - the new one we're trying to
switch to, for a bit of future-proofing - ISN'T. (For sending. It's
receiving fine.)


If you haven't paid for it, perhaps "Demo-Mode" does not include
sending.


No, apparently the main difference is that the free one only allows one
"Personality".

Also, it says it is using the OpenSSL library, but doesn't mention which
version. As I recall, OpenSSL had to get updated due to security issues
probably related to using old or deprecated ciphers. Other than
mentioning it uses OpenSSL, it gives to accredidation to OpenSSL or
mention which version it incorporates. As OpenSSL gets updated, so
should also the software that incorporates it. The only mention of
OpenSSL in Pandora's release notes is way back to Pandora 1.0.1 (no
datestamp, but suspect that was a long time ago).

Note: The datestamp at the end of the Release History web page is for
when the content got updated, not the datestamp of any particular
version of the Pandora program.


Yes - isn't it irritating when they do that (-:!
[]
And what happens when you chose to /not/ use StartTLS (and establish a
non-encrypted connection to the mail servers)?


I _believe_ TalkTalk still support non-encrypted access.

So Eudora - which is working - is definitely not using it, so therefore
TalkTalk don't require it.


Pandora was written later (or copied from Eudora code). That Eudora is
not using OAUTH2 doesn't mean that Pandora is also not using OAUTH2.


It has it as an option.

Does Eudora have a StartTLS (try to use TLS) option, or is it missing in
Eudora? You show Pandora is configured to try using TLS. Sorry,
without a list of Authentication choices, I don't know what Basic might
be when compared to the other choices.


Yes, Eudora has a setting "if available" or something like that, which
is what J was using.

What happens when you configure Pandora Mail to /not/ use TLS? Does
TalkTalk allow non-encrypted connections to its mail servers? Some now


I _think_ they still do.

demand an encrypted connection.

...

Sorry for the late reply. The only "Pandora" that I know of is the


Julia has got it working - I'm afraid I don't know how. She did tell me
she'd reinstalled it, though I don't think there was any corruption in
her earlier install - but maybe the reinstallation reset some setting.

music streaming service (pandora.com). After a search, I found:

https://www.drivehq.com/web/brana/pandora.htm


Brana is certainly the developer's name.

Pandora is not the same as Pandora Mail. Yep, confusing naming and
possibly copyright infringement, especially since users will likely
shorten Pandora Mail to just Pandora.

When I look at drivehq's home page, I don't see anything of them doing
e-mail services. From their Software page, their software is oriented
to their file storage services, plus they offer software from other 3rd
parties (e.g., Filezilla). An e-mail client seems a complete departure
from what services and other software they provide. Makes me wonder
where they stole, er, acquired the code. From what I found, "Pandora
Mail, an e-mail client intended to replicate the functionality of
Eudora", but no mention if that was for the classic version or the
Thunderbird fork. Wonder how much of the original code was borrowed.


From a different page, I'm pretty sure the classic version. The
Thunderbird one was an interesting idea, but abandoned, and the version
of TB it was based on is now very old (single digit).

It is a shareware program. Did you pay ($14) to uncripple it?


Julia tells me she has bought it, though the title bar during this
afternoon's TeamViewer session implied she was still using a free
version.

"Pandora Mail is a shareware program. This means that you can use it
with the limited set of features for free (Demo-Mode), or register the
program and gain the access to the full set of features (Full-Mode)."
I didn't see a free-vs-paid web page delineating just what is "limited"
in the free version. The Pandora subsite at drivehq.com site has a
forum link pointing to:

https://pandoramail.forumotion.net/

Your error message says "Authentication failed". Have you tried using
TalkTalk's webmail client to make sure you can send using your account
with their webmail client? Copy the username and password fields from
Pandora to login using TalkTalk's webmail client. That would eliminate
any accidental inclusion of space characters that aren't shown to you.


She was using Eudora no problem. She assured me the PW and U were
correct.

Did you yet test with your anti-virus software /not/ intercepting and
interrogating your e-mail traffic? In your AV, configure it to /not/
interrogate your e-mail traffic. That the AV may not interrogate
Eudora's e-mail traffic does not mandate it isn't interrogating e-mail
traffic for Pandora Mail. Just discard the superfluous e-mail scanner
in whatever AV is used.


Well, she's got it working, so I doubt that was it.

(Sorry if some of my answers are woolly - remember this is a blind user
over 300 miles from me, accessed via TeamViewer, whom I can't visit due
to CoViD at the moment; since she _has_ somehow got it working, I'm
going to leave well alone until I _can_ visit them, which hopefully will
be the case in the summer.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

[What's your guilty pleasure?] Why should you feel guilty about pleasure? -
Michel Roux Jr in Radio Times 2-8 February 2013
 




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