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  #46  
Old December 2nd 11, 01:19 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
BillW50
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,556
Default ! Windows 7 Sucks

In . 97.131,
DanS wrote:
"BillW50" wrote in
:

In ,
Tom Lake wrote:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote
in message ...
In message
,
Mortimer writes:

No, I would say it _is_ Microsoft's, for making an OS (or
OS variant) which can't use older drivers. Why should
hardware manufacturers have to keep producing new drivers
(especially for kit they no longer make - don't know if
that's the case in this case)?

Why should MS (or ANY OS maker) support all old hardware
ad infinitum? In order to advance the OS, keep it able to
use the latest hardware and keep it secure, some things
must be left behind or you'd end up with a huge, ungainly
mess. If the manufacturer doesn't support the newest OS,
then MS certainly doesn't have the resources to write
drivers for every piece of obsolete equipment out there.

Tom L


In the early days, an OS was screwed big time if it didn't
support the legacy factor. You can have the world's
greatest OS ever seen, but it is totally worthless if it
doesn't support the past. Same is true today. If you burn
bridges as you go, you will always lose.


"In the early days"....of what... teletypes and ASCII only
printers ?

Do today's printers even have an ASCII mode anymore whe

copy file.txt lpt1

actually prints the text file ?

Who's burning bridges here ?

The printer mfg's, not MS.


Actually Microsoft is burning bridges here. There is no good reason why
you can't use a Windows 95 printer driver under Windows 7. Have you ever
written a printer driver for Windows before Dan? I have. And in the
past, Microsoft didn't break older printer drivers. But those were
people at Microsoft who had learned those hard lessons before. Nowadays
Microsoft has new programmers who are naive about such lessons.

Since most of the old people at Microsoft has retired. The
new replacements just don't know any better. And I see
Microsoft getting into trouble because of this. Even
Microsoft had to layoff people in recent times because of
this (the first time in history).


I'm sure the layoffs were just like every other company on
Earth, the economy.....


In today's world, people can't live without computers. Far different
than just a few decades earlier. And computers are not going away soon.
And if Microsoft can't convince the masses that newer is better, then
they have to have layoffs. Just the same as it was decades ago. Remember
WordStar and Lotus? The economy was great back then but they couldn't
convince the masses either.

....not anything to do with whatever you're going on about
above....or below.


Everything to do with it actually. As Microsoft had to learn the lessons
of becoming successful just like everybody did, or die. And Microsoft
learned and survived. Although they have retired and now there is a
bunch of new people who are clueless about being successful. And if they
don't learn the lessons quick, they will drive Microsoft into the
ground.

And it isn't going to get
better for Microsoft until they relearn this lesson. And if
they don't... well either Linux or the Mac (or something
unknown to us today) will just take over.


--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2
Centrino Core Duo T2400 1.83GHz - 2GB - Windows XP SP3


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  #47  
Old December 2nd 11, 01:34 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
BillW50
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,556
Default ! Windows 7 Sucks

In ,
Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On 12/01/2011, SC Tom posted:
"BillW50" wrote in message
...
In ,
Tom Lake wrote:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in
message ...
In message ,
Mortimer writes:

No, I would say it _is_ Microsoft's, for making an OS (or OS
variant) which can't use older drivers. Why should hardware
manufacturers have to keep producing new drivers (especially for
kit they no longer make - don't know if that's the case in this
case)?

Why should MS (or ANY OS maker) support all old hardware ad
infinitum? In order to advance the OS, keep it able to use the
latest hardware and keep it secure, some things must be left
behind or you'd end up with a huge, ungainly mess. If the
manufacturer doesn't support the newest OS, then MS certainly
doesn't have the resources to write drivers for every piece of
obsolete equipment out there. Tom L

In the early days, an OS was screwed big time if it didn't support
the legacy factor. You can have the world's greatest OS ever seen,
but it is totally worthless if it doesn't support the past. Same is
true today. If you burn bridges as you go, you will always lose.

Since most of the old people at Microsoft has retired. The new
replacements just don't know any better. And I see Microsoft
getting into trouble because of this. Even Microsoft had to layoff
people in recent times because of this (the first time in history).
And it isn't going to get better for Microsoft until they relearn
this lesson. And if they don't... well either Linux or the Mac (or
something unknown to us today) will just take over.


I don't think Linux or Mac (or something unknown) will ever displace
Microsoft in my lifetime, but I'm sure someday in the future, it may
be replaced as the top dog.


Years ago (many, many), I tried OS/2 Warp for a little while. After
installing it and rebooting, I no longer had a CD-ROM drive. No OS/2
drivers for it, and none from (IIRC) Panasonic either. The only
drives that were native in OS/2 were Matsu****a and a couple of
others, and even though they own Panasonic now, they either didn't
then or the two drives weren't close enough for the Matsu****a
drivers to work with my drive. I tried OS/2 with Windows 3.1
(upgrade) thinking that might solve the problem, but no joy there
either.


Another bad point was that I had an IBM Big Blue thermal printer,
and I couldn't get either version of OS/2 to recognize it either.
IBM OS won't print to an INM printer? What's up with that? After a
couple on months of searching and using it (it was stable and
speedy. No wonder; it had no drivers taking up memory), I finally
went back to Windows. I've tinkered with other OSes over the years,
but have never left Windows for good. Works fine for me. If there's
something about it I don't like (and believe me, there's plenty), I
can usually figure out a workaround or find a third party app to get
'er done.


I once worked on some software for OS/2. Someone else was the video
expert writing drivers for a few video cards; this was before the card
manufacturers provided drivers.

I suggested to an appropriate person that IBM should be supporting
some other video cards ('twas a long time ago, so I've forgotten the
details). The reply was "We're not in the business of providing
drivers for non-IBM cards". I said no more...

And OS/2 has evaporated.

BTW, I did get to see a demo of some media-like software running under
that system; IIRC, it was really beautiful.


I know a great deal about IBM's OS/2. That problem was only the tip of
the iceberg. IBM hated Microsoft for not trying to make all IBM clones
obsolete (as that would cut Microsoft's own throat as well as all third
parties). And IBM had to pay Microsoft for each OS/2 copy they sold (IBM
even lied to Microsoft about how little they sold when they were
bragging far higher numbers to others). Microsoft had taken them to
court and IBM had to pay Microsoft the bragging numbers they were
saying.

Oh course IBM was really ticked. And they were hell bent on removing all
Microsoft code within OS/2 (so they didn't have to pay Microsoft a
dime). The problem was they broke OS/2 severely at any attempt to put
their own code in. And this is the biggest reason among a few others why
OS/2 had failed. And IBM failed to remove all of the Microsoft code in
OS/2.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2
Centrino Core Duo T2400 1.83GHz - 2GB - Windows XP SP3


  #48  
Old December 2nd 11, 02:10 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
BillW50
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,556
Default ! Windows 7 Sucks

In ,
SC Tom wrote:
"BillW50" wrote in message
...
In ,
Tom Lake wrote:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...
In message ,
Mortimer writes:

No, I would say it _is_ Microsoft's, for making an OS (or OS
variant) which can't use older drivers. Why should hardware
manufacturers have to keep producing new drivers (especially for
kit they no longer make - don't know if that's the case in this
case)?

Why should MS (or ANY OS maker) support all old hardware ad
infinitum? In order to advance the OS, keep it able to use the
latest hardware and keep it secure, some things must be left behind
or you'd end up with a huge, ungainly mess. If the manufacturer
doesn't support the newest OS, then MS certainly doesn't have the
resources to write drivers for every piece of obsolete equipment
out there. Tom L


In the early days, an OS was screwed big time if it didn't support
the legacy factor. You can have the world's greatest OS ever seen,
but it is totally worthless if it doesn't support the past. Same is
true today. If you burn bridges as you go, you will always lose.
Since most of the old people at Microsoft has retired. The new
replacements just don't know any better. And I see Microsoft getting
into trouble because of this. Even Microsoft had to layoff people in
recent times because of this (the first time in history). And it
isn't going to get better for Microsoft until they relearn this
lesson. And if they don't... well either Linux or the Mac (or
something unknown to us today) will just take over.


I don't think Linux or Mac (or something unknown) will ever displace
Microsoft in my lifetime, but I'm sure someday in the future, it may
be replaced as the top dog.


The if the old people were still at Microsoft, I too feel the same way.
But they left and have long retired. Now Microsoft has new people who
have to learn all of the old lessons or die. Just like so many other
companies in the past had too. If the new people are really smart and
learn very fast, they will do just fine. If not, well then what can save
them?

Years ago (many, many), I tried OS/2 Warp for a little while. After
installing it and rebooting, I no longer had a CD-ROM drive. No OS/2
drivers for it, and none from (IIRC) Panasonic either. The only
drives that were native in OS/2 were Matsu****a and a couple of
others, and even though they own Panasonic now, they either didn't
then or the two drives weren't close enough for the Matsu****a
drivers to work with my drive. I tried OS/2 with Windows 3.1
(upgrade) thinking that might solve the problem, but no joy there
either.

Another bad point was that I had an IBM Big Blue thermal printer, and
I couldn't get either version of OS/2 to recognize it either. IBM OS
won't print to an INM printer? What's up with that? After a couple on
months of searching and using it (it was stable and speedy. No
wonder; it had no drivers taking up memory), I finally went back to
Windows. I've tinkered with other OSes over the years, but have never
left Windows for good. Works fine for me. If there's something about
it I don't like (and believe me, there's plenty), I can usually
figure out a workaround or find a third party app to get 'er done.


Don't get me started about IBM's OS/2! I know all about OS/2 far more
than I even want to admit too. Talk about waving a carrot on a string.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2
Centrino Core Duo T2400 1.83GHz - 2GB - Windows XP SP3


  #49  
Old December 2nd 11, 02:30 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Roy Smith[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 658
Default ! Windows 7 Sucks

On 12/1/2011 8:21 AM, Wolf K wrote:
On 01/12/2011 3:45 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Mortimer
writes:
[]
In most respects, Windows 7 works perfectly for me.


(For the month or two I had a 7 machine to play with, I found I disliked
it a lot less than I was expecting to: I think it's a "good" Windows, on
the whole. I even understood what they were trying to do with libraries
[basically, make links work properly, like they did in Unix], though
some of the implementation needs tweaking.)

The only downsides a

- no 64-bit driver is available for my Epson 1200 scanner so I need
to keep an XP machine for this

Actually, that's Epson's fault, not Microsoft's.

True.


No, I would say it _is_ Microsoft's, for making an OS (or OS variant)
which can't use older drivers. Why should hardware manufacturers have to
keep producing new drivers (especially for kit they no longer make -
don't know if that's the case in this case)?
[]


This argument was beaten to death on a Linux group (very few mfrs
provide drivers for Linux).

The real issue is lack of standards. We're well past the time that
printers should be plug'n'play, and I don't mean that the OS installs a
driver when you plug in the printer. It's bizarre that one needs
different drivers for different printers made by the same manufacturer.
Etc.


In the 80's there was an attempt at setting a standard for computers
both in hardware and software, it was called MSX.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX

The concept was that any product that had the MSX logo on it would be
compatible with any other MSX branded product regardless of who
manufactured it. The system gained popularity in Japan, Europe, and
South America but failed miserably in the US and Great Brittan.


--

Roy Smith
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-Bit
Thunderbird 8.0
Thursday, December 01, 2011 7:30:09 PM
  #50  
Old December 2nd 11, 03:10 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
DanS[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,021
Default ! Windows 7 Sucks

Roy Smith wrote in
:

On 12/1/2011 8:21 AM, Wolf K wrote:
On 01/12/2011 3:45 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message
,
Mortimer writes:
[]
In most respects, Windows 7 works perfectly for me.

(For the month or two I had a 7 machine to play with, I
found I disliked it a lot less than I was expecting to: I
think it's a "good" Windows, on the whole. I even
understood what they were trying to do with libraries
[basically, make links work properly, like they did in
Unix], though some of the implementation needs tweaking.)

The only downsides a

- no 64-bit driver is available for my Epson 1200
scanner so I need to keep an XP machine for this

Actually, that's Epson's fault, not Microsoft's.

True.

No, I would say it _is_ Microsoft's, for making an OS (or
OS variant) which can't use older drivers. Why should
hardware manufacturers have to keep producing new drivers
(especially for kit they no longer make - don't know if
that's the case in this case)? []


This argument was beaten to death on a Linux group (very
few mfrs provide drivers for Linux).

The real issue is lack of standards. We're well past the
time that printers should be plug'n'play, and I don't mean
that the OS installs a driver when you plug in the
printer. It's bizarre that one needs different drivers for
different printers made by the same manufacturer. Etc.


In the 80's there was an attempt at setting a standard for
computers both in hardware and software, it was called MSX.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX

The concept was that any product that had the MSX logo on
it would be compatible with any other MSX branded product
regardless of who manufactured it. The system gained
popularity in Japan, Europe, and South America but failed
miserably in the US and Great Brittan.



This sentence was interesting......

"It is said that Microsoft led the project as an attempt to
create unified standards among hardware makers."


  #51  
Old December 2nd 11, 03:10 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,291
Default ! Windows 7 Sucks

In message , Roy
Smith writes:
On 12/1/2011 8:21 AM, Wolf K wrote:

[]
This argument was beaten to death on a Linux group (very few mfrs
provide drivers for Linux).

The real issue is lack of standards. We're well past the time that
printers should be plug'n'play, and I don't mean that the OS installs a
driver when you plug in the printer. It's bizarre that one needs
different drivers for different printers made by the same manufacturer.
Etc.


At least basic common features: once one printer from that manufacturer
can be driven, using another should work for common features. If the
second one has additional features (higher resolution, ability to print
to the edge or double-sided, a stapler, ...) that the first one didn't,
then it is reasonable for those not to work without requiring extra
support.

In the 80's there was an attempt at setting a standard for computers
both in hardware and software, it was called MSX.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX

The concept was that any product that had the MSX logo on it would be
compatible with any other MSX branded product regardless of who
manufactured it. The system gained popularity in Japan, Europe, and
South America but failed miserably in the US and Great Brittan.


Unfortunately, such standards go one of two ways: either they are fairly
sophisticated and set a baseline only a few of the available machines
can reach, so they get ignored because the market share is too small;
or, they become a "lowest common denominator", and are ignored by all
but the users of the most basic machines. UK people may remember
"BASICODE" ("The Chip Shop, with Barry Norman"), which was a sort of
common BASIC programming: some software was even broadcast on (IIRR)
Radio 4 at closedown! (We're talking tape interfaces here!)
Unfortunately, this used the "lowest common denominator" approach -
"make your BBC Micro behave like a ZX81", as its critics called it.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

On the other hand, you have different fingers.
  #52  
Old December 2nd 11, 03:23 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,291
Default ! Windows 7 Sucks

In message , Tom Lake
writes:


"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...
In message ,
Mortimer writes:


No, I would say it _is_ Microsoft's, for making an OS (or OS variant)
which can't use older drivers. Why should hardware manufacturers have
to keep producing new drivers (especially for kit they no longer make
- don't know if that's the case in this case)?


Why should MS (or ANY OS maker) support all old hardware ad infinitum?


I didn't say they should. I said they should work with older _drivers_.
So it's not "all old hardware" - it's one aspect of the older OS. They
do provide (especially recent upgrades, such as XP to Vista to 7) at
least some level of compatibility with older _software_: you don't have
to replace all your software when you move to 7, you can carry on using
quite a lot of it. (Yes, there are versions of - for example - Office
that _take advantage of new FEATURES of the new variant: but older
versions, at least to some extent, will still _work_ under the new OS.)

In order to
advance the OS, keep it able to use the latest hardware and keep it
secure, some things
must be left behind or you'd end up with a huge, ungainly mess. If the
manufacturer
doesn't support the newest OS, then MS certainly doesn't have the
resources to write
drivers for every piece of obsolete equipment out there.

Tom L


I guess we'll just have to agree to differ here. Sure, I can see there
are some things that could hold things back (though I think the security
card is often overplayed - I can't really see the likelihood of using an
old printer driver _realistically_ being much of a security risk: that's
not dissimilar to companies who use "health and safety" as a getout for
all sorts of things), but equally, it can go too far the other way,
making users have to replace all (or most of) their hardware.

I would say, it isn't realistic to expect 7 to support all those old
"dot matrix" (i. e. impact-through-a-ribbon) printers; however, it does
support a surprising number of them! (Assuming your 7 computer has a
parallel port that is!) There is clearly some standard protocol that
works with them. Maybe it is the industry as a whole that needs to agree
on standard printer driving algorithms for more advanced printers
(inkjet, laser), rather than each manufacturer (presumably?) having
their own way.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

On the other hand, you have different fingers.
  #53  
Old December 2nd 11, 03:52 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
DanS[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,021
Default ! Windows 7 Sucks

"BillW50" wrote in
:

In
. 97.131,
DanS wrote:
"BillW50" wrote in
:

In ,
Tom Lake wrote:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote in message
...
In message
,
Mortimer writes:

No, I would say it _is_ Microsoft's, for making an OS
(or OS variant) which can't use older drivers. Why
should hardware manufacturers have to keep producing
new drivers (especially for kit they no longer make -
don't know if that's the case in this case)?

Why should MS (or ANY OS maker) support all old hardware
ad infinitum? In order to advance the OS, keep it able
to use the latest hardware and keep it secure, some
things must be left behind or you'd end up with a huge,
ungainly mess. If the manufacturer doesn't support the
newest OS, then MS certainly doesn't have the resources
to write drivers for every piece of obsolete equipment
out there.

Tom L

In the early days, an OS was screwed big time if it
didn't support the legacy factor. You can have the
world's greatest OS ever seen, but it is totally
worthless if it doesn't support the past. Same is true
today. If you burn bridges as you go, you will always
lose.


"In the early days"....of what... teletypes and ASCII only
printers ?

Do today's printers even have an ASCII mode anymore whe

copy file.txt lpt1

actually prints the text file ?

Who's burning bridges here ?

The printer mfg's, not MS.


Actually Microsoft is burning bridges here. There is no
good reason why you can't use a Windows 95 printer driver
under Windows 7.


I'd assume the difference is the NT kernel vs. 9x which was
just really a shell running on top of DOS.


Have you ever written a printer driver for
Windows before Dan? I have.


I have not, however I have written a ton of other software. A
lot for personal use..utilities that are fairly specific in
nature, so there's no a huge choice, if any, out there to
choose from, so I'd have to roll my own.

Some was for the places I've worked. Programs distributed to
customers, and for internal use, even database programs. These
were all done in a variety of programming languages.

And in the past, Microsoft
didn't break older printer drivers. But those were people
at Microsoft who had learned those hard lessons before.
Nowadays Microsoft has new programmers who are naive about
such lessons.


Let's not make this seem like there's a 100 years of history
here. We're talking roughly 20 years of the PC age....

Win 3.1, 16 bit. Win 9x, 32-bit DOS-based. Then NT-based OSs.

Did drivers from 16-bit 3.1 work under 32-bit Win9x ? Or
driver's for 9x work in NT/XP ?

There's a couple breakages right there.

With the introduction of Vista, there was changes in the
driver model again and security model.

And again, going from 32 bit to 64 bit. CPUs with new added
instruction sets and other advances in hardware architecture
can require changes to take advantages of it.

And now with the whole HP printer exploit that's in the news,
who knows what's going to go on with printing
technologies...maybe there wil be a push just back to dumb
peripherals for most.



Since most of the old people at Microsoft has retired.
The new replacements just don't know any better. And I
see Microsoft getting into trouble because of this. Even
Microsoft had to layoff people in recent times because of
this (the first time in history).


I'm sure the layoffs were just like every other company on
Earth, the economy.....


In today's world, people can't live without computers. Far
different than just a few decades earlier. And computers
are not going away soon. And if Microsoft can't convince
the masses that newer is better, then they have to have
layoffs. Just the same as it was decades ago. Remember
WordStar and Lotus? The economy was great back then but
they couldn't convince the masses either.


Sure I remember Wordstar and Lotus, and bunches of other s/w
companies, but Wordstar was one of how many word processor
packages available ? Yes, they are gone because MS created an
Office Suite that was lower cost, that was a viable package
for most, so people stopped buying the really expensive 3rd
party Word Processors.

There are only 3 OSs now that are viable for everyday
use.......Windows, Linux and OSX (MAC).

The last two releases of Windows...Vista, and 7, sold more
copies faster than each preceeding release.

MAC is *very* slowly growing, the last couple Linux pushes
were commercial failures, and, unfortunately, will continue to
be because of the lack of unity among distros, and yes, TOO
MANY CHOICES for those that just want to turn the thing on and
go.

....not anything to do with whatever you're going on about
above....or below.


Everything to do with it actually.


Still, not really...ALL companies, in ALL industries have gone
through the same thing. (Well, mostly all.)

......it was happening because of costs skyrocketing,
everything from utility costs, to worker healthcare expenses,
sub-contracting, office supplies, bulding supplies...pretty
much all expenses.....and instead of taking from the profits
to cover these costs, these corporations choose layoffs, which
is somewhat wrong, as there should be some type of middle
ground.


Buy anyway, you have your opinion, I have mine. We can leave
it at that.

  #54  
Old December 2nd 11, 05:33 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
BillW50
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,556
Default ! Windows 7 Sucks

In . 97.131,
DanS wrote:
"BillW50" wrote in
:

In
. 97.131,
DanS wrote:
"BillW50" wrote in
:

In ,
Tom Lake wrote:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote in message
...
In message
,
Mortimer writes:

No, I would say it _is_ Microsoft's, for making an OS
(or OS variant) which can't use older drivers. Why
should hardware manufacturers have to keep producing
new drivers (especially for kit they no longer make -
don't know if that's the case in this case)?

Why should MS (or ANY OS maker) support all old hardware
ad infinitum? In order to advance the OS, keep it able
to use the latest hardware and keep it secure, some
things must be left behind or you'd end up with a huge,
ungainly mess. If the manufacturer doesn't support the
newest OS, then MS certainly doesn't have the resources
to write drivers for every piece of obsolete equipment
out there.

Tom L

In the early days, an OS was screwed big time if it
didn't support the legacy factor. You can have the
world's greatest OS ever seen, but it is totally
worthless if it doesn't support the past. Same is true
today. If you burn bridges as you go, you will always
lose.

"In the early days"....of what... teletypes and ASCII only
printers ?

Do today's printers even have an ASCII mode anymore whe

copy file.txt lpt1

actually prints the text file ?

Who's burning bridges here ?

The printer mfg's, not MS.


Actually Microsoft is burning bridges here. There is no
good reason why you can't use a Windows 95 printer driver
under Windows 7.


I'd assume the difference is the NT kernel vs. 9x which was
just really a shell running on top of DOS.


Dos was a loader for 9x. This is the very same for everything so far.
Even OS/2 back in 1990 used a loader. You know why they all needed a
loader?

Once 9x loaded, no DOS calls could do anything without 9x ok first.
People think that DOS had the say so, but that wasn't true. 9x had to go
because people couldn't get over that fact.

Have you ever written a printer driver for
Windows before Dan? I have.


I have not, however I have written a ton of other software. A
lot for personal use..utilities that are fairly specific in
nature, so there's no a huge choice, if any, out there to
choose from, so I'd have to roll my own.


Rolled your own printer drivers? If so, so you really do know.

Some was for the places I've worked. Programs distributed to
customers, and for internal use, even database programs. These
were all done in a variety of programming languages.

And in the past, Microsoft
didn't break older printer drivers. But those were people
at Microsoft who had learned those hard lessons before.
Nowadays Microsoft has new programmers who are naive about
such lessons.


Let's not make this seem like there's a 100 years of history
here. We're talking roughly 20 years of the PC age....

Win 3.1, 16 bit. Win 9x, 32-bit DOS-based. Then NT-based OSs.


Well it was longer than 20 years, but the last 20 years were the most
important. So I am okay with that.

Did drivers from 16-bit 3.1 work under 32-bit Win9x ?


Yes, 3.1x with Win32 supported both. And 9x also supported 16 and 32
bit.

Or driver's for 9x work in NT/XP ?


The NT family was a totally different beast. It would be totally
understandable if nothing was compatible between the two. But luckily
many things were. But NT, Windows 2000, XP, Vista, and Windows 7 are all
really NT based. So what is the problem? The old people at Microsoft
before they retired could make it work. But the new people at Microsoft
can't be bothered. As it is too hard for them. And that is the whole
problem. As they are just lazy.

There's a couple breakages right there.

With the introduction of Vista, there was changes in the
driver model again and security model.


Why label it as part of the NT family then? As it isn't really of the
kind.

And again, going from 32 bit to 64 bit. CPUs with new added
instruction sets and other advances in hardware architecture
can require changes to take advantages of it.


OMG! Windows supported 16 bit for almost two decades. Now the move from
32 to 64 bit, it can't be done anymore? With the older Microsoft
programmers it would happen. But with the new lazy new programmers, it
is not possible.

And now with the whole HP printer exploit that's in the news,
who knows what's going to go on with printing
technologies...maybe there wil be a push just back to dumb
peripherals for most.


News to me. I plead ignorance here and I must check this out.

Since most of the old people at Microsoft has retired.
The new replacements just don't know any better. And I
see Microsoft getting into trouble because of this. Even
Microsoft had to layoff people in recent times because of
this (the first time in history).

I'm sure the layoffs were just like every other company on
Earth, the economy.....


In today's world, people can't live without computers. Far
different than just a few decades earlier. And computers
are not going away soon. And if Microsoft can't convince
the masses that newer is better, then they have to have
layoffs. Just the same as it was decades ago. Remember
WordStar and Lotus? The economy was great back then but
they couldn't convince the masses either.


Sure I remember Wordstar and Lotus, and bunches of other s/w
companies, but Wordstar was one of how many word processor
packages available ? Yes, they are gone because MS created an
Office Suite that was lower cost, that was a viable package
for most, so people stopped buying the really expensive 3rd
party Word Processors.


No! At the peak, upper management fired all of the programmers because
they thought they were big enough they didn't need them anymore. As now
they thought they could hire people far cheaper than they had. Like
always it didn't work and they went under.

There are only 3 OSs now that are viable for everyday
use.......Windows, Linux and OSX (MAC).


There are many that tried to get into the game. Although I see a big
turning point and nobody is giving what people want. So the door is wide
open for even a startup to step in.

The last two releases of Windows...Vista, and 7, sold more
copies faster than each preceeding release.


Really? MS Bob and ME were Microsoft's big flops. And I never saw Vista
as being very exciting. Filled with bugs and all. And Windows 7 is doing
far better being as the Vista bug fixed version.

MAC is *very* slowly growing, the last couple Linux pushes
were commercial failures, and, unfortunately, will continue to
be because of the lack of unity among distros, and yes, TOO
MANY CHOICES for those that just want to turn the thing on and
go.


Yes running Linux doesn't mean you can run any Linux application. What
makes Windows different is Windows for the most part means you can run
Windows applications. But the new Microsoft, this is changing. And it
isn't going to make things better.

....not anything to do with whatever you're going on about
above....or below.


Everything to do with it actually.


Still, not really...ALL companies, in ALL industries have gone
through the same thing. (Well, mostly all.)

.....it was happening because of costs skyrocketing,
everything from utility costs, to worker healthcare expenses,
sub-contracting, office supplies, bulding supplies...pretty
much all expenses.....and instead of taking from the profits
to cover these costs, these corporations choose layoffs, which
is somewhat wrong, as there should be some type of middle
ground.

Buy anyway, you have your opinion, I have mine. We can leave
it at that.


Lots of company are starving for cash. Microsoft is different since they
have billions in the bank. They don't need to sell any stock whatsoever.
You can say what you want, but you can't change the truth. And the only
danger Microsoft has is they lost all of the programmers who has learned
the hard lessons from the past. As the new programmers don't have a
clue.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - OE-QuoteFix v1.19.2
Centrino Core Duo T2400 1.83GHz - 2GB - Windows XP SP3


  #55  
Old December 2nd 11, 05:45 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Wolf K
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 356
Default ! Windows 7 Sucks

On 01/12/2011 9:10 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
n message , Roy Smith
writes:
On 12/1/2011 8:21 AM, Wolf K wrote:

[]
This argument was beaten to death on a Linux group (very few mfrs
provide drivers for Linux).

The real issue is lack of standards. We're well past the time that
printers should be plug'n'play, and I don't mean that the OS installs a
driver when you plug in the printer. It's bizarre that one needs
different drivers for different printers made by the same manufacturer.
Etc.


At least basic common features: once one printer from that manufacturer
can be driven, using another should work for common features.


Yes, and it's surprising how often that is not possible. More than a
bizarre design choice: IMO it's insane.

If the
second one has additional features (higher resolution, ability to print
to the edge or double-sided, a stapler, ...) that the first one didn't,
then it is reasonable for those not to work without requiring extra
support.


Most of the features you mention are implemented in the printer's
firmwa all you see is a pane on which you can select such features,
but the OS doesn't do anything other than pass on the instruction(s).
Resolution has to be in the firmware, since the mfr cannot know what
software will be used to generate the documents and images to be printed.

Inference: standardising printer-computer interactions depends on how
the firmware is structured. Current printers are stupid, and leave too
much up to the OS, which is odd, since Commodore made smart printers
decades ago. What we need are smart printers. Or smarter ones. And we
need some standard protocols for presenting document files etc to a
printer for printing. Shouldn't be hard to do.

From a computer's POV, a printer (or any other peripheral) is really
just a data sink: send whatever data the peripheral asks for, and let it
deal with it designed. For example, leave the translation of document
data into printer data entirely up to the printer. All that would take
is a few MB of flashable memory to store translation scripts.
Instructions such as "print double sided" would be part of the data
stream's header.

HTH
Wolf K.
  #56  
Old December 2nd 11, 05:50 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Wolf K
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 356
Default ! Windows 7 Sucks

On 01/12/2011 7:19 PM, BillW50 wrote:
[...]
Have you ever
written a printer driver for Windows before Dan?

[...]

Yes. I even recall inserting escape sequences (ie "driver" instructions)
into text docs so as to make the printer do all kinds of fancy things.

Glad those days are gone.

Wolf K.
  #57  
Old December 2nd 11, 09:48 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,291
Default ! Windows 7 Sucks

In message 31, DanS
writes:
[]
And again, going from 32 bit to 64 bit. CPUs with new added
instruction sets and other advances in hardware architecture
can require changes to take advantages of it.

[]
Yes, but _take advantage of_ is the significant phrase. You should still
be able to run existing software (in the case under discussion, printer
drivers); if it doesn't _take advantage of_ the new features, that's
your problem.

If I had a car that could do 200 miles per hour, I would accept that I
might have to pay for access to places where I could take advantage of
that capability; however, I'd be pretty peeved if I _couldn't_ drive it
on ordinary roads (and, obviously, I'd accept that I couldn't do 200 on
them).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G.5AL-IS-P--Ch++(p)Ar@T0H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

On the other hand, you have different fingers.
  #58  
Old December 2nd 11, 01:24 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
SC Tom[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,089
Default ! Windows 7 Sucks


"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message ...
In message 31, DanS
writes:
[]
And again, going from 32 bit to 64 bit. CPUs with new added
instruction sets and other advances in hardware architecture
can require changes to take advantages of it.

[]
Yes, but _take advantage of_ is the significant phrase. You should still be able to run existing software (in the case
under discussion, printer drivers); if it doesn't _take advantage of_ the new features, that's your problem.

If I had a car that could do 200 miles per hour, I would accept that I might have to pay for access to places where I
could take advantage of that capability; however, I'd be pretty peeved if I _couldn't_ drive it on ordinary roads
(and, obviously, I'd accept that I couldn't do 200 on them).


Sort of a bad analogy; there are plenty of cars that will go 200MPH, but you can't drive them on regular roads without a
lot of modifications (Nascar racers), and some that wouldn't be legal no matter what you did to them (drag racers come
to mind). But I get your point :-)
--
SC Tom

  #59  
Old December 2nd 11, 07:03 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
DanS[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,021
Default ! Windows 7 Sucks

"BillW50" wrote in
:

(Note: Any deleted material does not mean I agree with it.

And again, going from 32 bit to 64 bit. CPUs with new
added instruction sets and other advances in hardware
architecture can require changes to take advantages of it.


OMG! Windows supported 16 bit for almost two decades. Now
the move from 32 to 64 bit, it can't be done anymore? With
the older Microsoft programmers it would happen. But with
the new lazy new programmers, it is not possible.


It wasn't 'lazy programmers', no matter what you say.

It was a business decision.

You can't support 100% of everything forever.

At some point, you have to decide that instead of supporting
100% you can only support 99.9999998% of users(, in relation
to this 16-bit issue.)

Users are crying about Windows 'bloat', and how do you cut
bloat.....by removing things that *virtually noone* uses
anymore.


And now with the whole HP printer exploit that's in the
news, who knows what's going to go on with printing
technologies...maybe there wil be a push just back to dumb
peripherals for most.


News to me. I plead ignorance here and I must check this
out.


http://redtape.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/29/9076395-
exclusive-millions-of-printers-open-to-devastating-hack-
attack-researchers-say




Since most of the old people at Microsoft has retired.
The new replacements just don't know any better. And I
see Microsoft getting into trouble because of this.
Even Microsoft had to layoff people in recent times
because of this (the first time in history).

I'm sure the layoffs were just like every other company
on Earth, the economy.....

In today's world, people can't live without computers.
Far different than just a few decades earlier. And
computers are not going away soon. And if Microsoft can't
convince the masses that newer is better, then they have
to have layoffs. Just the same as it was decades ago.
Remember WordStar and Lotus? The economy was great back
then but they couldn't convince the masses either.


Sure I remember Wordstar and Lotus, and bunches of other
s/w companies, but Wordstar was one of how many word
processor packages available ? Yes, they are gone because
MS created an Office Suite that was lower cost, that was a
viable package for most, so people stopped buying the
really expensive 3rd party Word Processors.


No! At the peak, upper management fired all of the
programmers because they thought they were big enough they
didn't need them anymore. As now they thought they could
hire people far cheaper than they had. Like always it
didn't work and they went under.


That may be so, but, this article:

(About spreadsheets, but the same applies)

http://www.utd.edu/~liebowit/book/sheets/sheet.html

....ends with the conclusion of......"The long-term winner in
this battle is Microsoft, which can unload Windows plus Excel
for such a low site-license price that few companies can
resist."

It doesn't matter *why* the other the others failed, they
failed.

Looks like the Lotus failure was just anojther bad business
decision....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Software

....."Although SmartSuite was bundled cheaply with many PCs and
may initially have been more popular than Microsoft Office,
Lotus quickly lost its dominance in the desktop applications
market with the transition to 32 bit applications running on
Windows 95. In large part due to its focusing much of its
development resources on a suite of applications for IBM's
then new (and eventually a market failure) OS/2 operating
system, Lotus was late in delivering its suite of 32 bit
products and failed to capitalize on the transition to the new
version of Windows. It now has very little market share."....


There are only 3 OSs now that are viable for everyday
use.......Windows, Linux and OSX (MAC).


There are many that tried to get into the game. Although I
see a big turning point and nobody is giving what people
want. So the door is wide open for even a startup to step
in.

The last two releases of Windows...Vista, and 7, sold more
copies faster than each preceeding release.


Really? MS Bob and ME were Microsoft's big flops.


And this means what, that people dumped MS like hot potato ?

Obviously not.

And I
never saw Vista as being very exciting. Filled with bugs
and all. And Windows 7 is doing far better being as the
Vista bug fixed version.


And that's all I see it as.

Buy anyway, you have your opinion, I have mine. We can
leave it at that.


Lots of company are starving for cash. Microsoft is
different since they have billions in the bank. They don't
need to sell any stock whatsoever.


And so are others.....

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/...rantz/2011-07-
20-companies-with-the-most-cash_n.htm

....and all still laying off people.


You can say what you
want, but you can't change the truth. And the only danger
Microsoft has is they lost all of the programmers who has
learned the hard lessons from the past. As the new
programmers don't have a clue.


Well, I'm assuming by 'programmers' you are talking about the
heads of individual programs...the one's that *actually make
the decisions* of what is or isn't included in whatever. The
people that actually do the programming, do what they are
told.....unless you think the 24-year old first year out of
college CS graduate is making the decisions of what goes or
doesn't go into Windows.
  #60  
Old December 2nd 11, 07:49 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Gene E. Bloch[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,720
Default ! Windows 7 Sucks

On 12/02/2011, DanS posted:
And now with the whole HP printer exploit that's in the
news, who knows what's going to go on with printing
technologies...maybe there wil be a push just back to dumb
peripherals for most.


News to me. I plead ignorance here and I must check this
out.


http://redtape.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/29/9076395-
exclusive-millions-of-printers-open-to-devastating-hack-
attack-researchers-say


One quote from the article:
"In that demonstration, a thermal switch shut the printer down –
basically, causing it to self-destruct".

That tends to destroy the article's credibility for me. In reality,
thermal switches, like fuses, *prevent* self-destruction...

But that was probably written by the reporter, and he may have been
confused.

Beyond that, I've been trying to figure out how the exploit can take
control of me and cause me to obtain CIA documents & carry them to the
printer so they could "...use a hijacked printer as a copy machine for
criminals, making it easy to commit identity theft or even take control
of entire networks that would otherwise be secure", or cause me to
carry copied documents to the post office and mail them to Petrograd.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)


 




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