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#16
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"BIOS problem" solved
Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Thu, 06 Nov 2014 05:34:42 -0500, Paul wrote: Rod Speed wrote: That isnt going to happen with a SATA cable. Thanks for providing the incentive for me to keep searching. http://h20566.www2.hp.com/portal/sit...4892.199480143 "Never bend a SATA data cable tighter than a 30 mm (1.18 in) radius. Never crease a SATA data cable." Notice that SATA power cables are not mentioned. This is because SATA power cables are not coaxial or twinaxial in nature, and there is no AC impedance to worry about in that respect. A SATA Power cable should not be bent so tightly as to break the copper wire inside. Paul Apropos of nothing (although I offer thanks for being motivated to look further above!), I still remember as a child not understanding how electricity could still get to the light bulb when there was a knot in the wire. Although some here might think otherwise, by "child" I mean when I was a kid of 4 years of age, not when I was 19 years old. Transmission line cables are a little different, in that abusing the dielectric, changes the characteristics of the cable when passing GHz signals. Transmitter ---- R0 ---- Coax -------+---- Receiver (z0) | R0 | Ground What that diagram is meant to convey, is both the transmitter end and the receiver end, should match the AC impedance (Z0) of the cable. If you do that successfully, no signal bounces off the end at the receiver and goes back towards the transmitter. The signal then has "perfect integrity" and has the same shape (potentially with high frequency loss) as the source. If the cable has extremely long length, you use line build-out, things like pre-emphasis, to make a good looking signal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-emphasis The SATA standard uses short cables, and no fancy signal processing. So rather than repair any high frequency loss issues, they limit the length of the cable. To allow the ESATA cable to be slightly longer, they increase the launch budget (still with no correction for high frequency loss). SAS supports much longer transmission, and has some line buildout capability. Which allows the thing to adjust to whether a long or a short cable is in usage. Some config bits, allow the SAS interface to change the emphasis settings. On SATA, the seven pin interface would look like this. And R3 (differential) is meant to match the R1 and R2 thing at the other end. The receiver has enough sensitivity, to compensate for the line loss. SATA supports full duplex, and packets can be moving in both directions between disk drive and motherboard, at the same time. (drain wire) TX+ --- R1 --- Twinaxial -----------+--- RX+ TX- --- R2 --- Conductors -------+ | | R3 | | +---+--- RX- (drain wire) RX+ ---+-------- Twinaxial ------- R1 --- TX+ | +---- Conductors ------- R2 --- TX- R3 | | | (drain wire) RX- ---+---+ Compare that to the "peeled" diagram for the cable. The center drain pin, goes to two physical drain wires, in the construction of the cable. Construction would have been marginally easier, with an eight pin connector. I'm sure somewhere, the person who had to solve that issue, must be cursing the SATAIO people. http://www.satacables.com/assets/images/IMG_188353.jpg That wiring diagram is just meant to give a transmission line view of the interconnect. There are other circuit details not include - AC coupling, 8B10B coding... HTH, Paul |
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#17
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"BIOS problem" solved
On Thu, 06 Nov 2014 16:23:14 -0500, Paul wrote:
Gene E. Bloch wrote: On Thu, 06 Nov 2014 05:34:42 -0500, Paul wrote: Rod Speed wrote: That isnt going to happen with a SATA cable. Thanks for providing the incentive for me to keep searching. http://h20566.www2.hp.com/portal/sit...4892.199480143 "Never bend a SATA data cable tighter than a 30 mm (1.18 in) radius. Never crease a SATA data cable." Notice that SATA power cables are not mentioned. This is because SATA power cables are not coaxial or twinaxial in nature, and there is no AC impedance to worry about in that respect. A SATA Power cable should not be bent so tightly as to break the copper wire inside. Paul Apropos of nothing (although I offer thanks for being motivated to look further above!), I still remember as a child not understanding how electricity could still get to the light bulb when there was a knot in the wire. Although some here might think otherwise, by "child" I mean when I was a kid of 4 years of age, not when I was 19 years old. Transmission line cables are a little different, in that abusing the dielectric, changes the characteristics of the cable when passing GHz signals. Transmitter ---- R0 ---- Coax -------+---- Receiver (z0) | R0 | Ground What that diagram is meant to convey, is both the transmitter end and the receiver end, should match the AC impedance (Z0) of the cable. If you do that successfully, no signal bounces off the end at the receiver and goes back towards the transmitter. The signal then has "perfect integrity" and has the same shape (potentially with high frequency loss) as the source. If the cable has extremely long length, you use line build-out, things like pre-emphasis, to make a good looking signal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-emphasis The SATA standard uses short cables, and no fancy signal processing. So rather than repair any high frequency loss issues, they limit the length of the cable. To allow the ESATA cable to be slightly longer, they increase the launch budget (still with no correction for high frequency loss). SAS supports much longer transmission, and has some line buildout capability. Which allows the thing to adjust to whether a long or a short cable is in usage. Some config bits, allow the SAS interface to change the emphasis settings. On SATA, the seven pin interface would look like this. And R3 (differential) is meant to match the R1 and R2 thing at the other end. The receiver has enough sensitivity, to compensate for the line loss. SATA supports full duplex, and packets can be moving in both directions between disk drive and motherboard, at the same time. (drain wire) TX+ --- R1 --- Twinaxial -----------+--- RX+ TX- --- R2 --- Conductors -------+ | | R3 | | +---+--- RX- (drain wire) RX+ ---+-------- Twinaxial ------- R1 --- TX+ | +---- Conductors ------- R2 --- TX- R3 | | | (drain wire) RX- ---+---+ Compare that to the "peeled" diagram for the cable. The center drain pin, goes to two physical drain wires, in the construction of the cable. Construction would have been marginally easier, with an eight pin connector. I'm sure somewhere, the person who had to solve that issue, must be cursing the SATAIO people. http://www.satacables.com/assets/images/IMG_188353.jpg That wiring diagram is just meant to give a transmission line view of the interconnect. There are other circuit details not include - AC coupling, 8B10B coding... HTH, Paul What does all that have to do with my youthful "understanding" of wire? -- Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch) |
#18
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"BIOS problem" solved
Gene E. Bloch wrote:
What does all that have to do with my youthful "understanding" of wire? Well, my young friend, this is wire with blue chewing gum inside. Try a bite... http://www.satacables.com/assets/images/IMG_188353.jpg Pauk |
#19
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"BIOS problem" solved
"Gene E. Bloch" schreef in bericht
... On Thu, 06 Nov 2014 05:34:42 -0500, Paul wrote: Rod Speed wrote: That isnt going to happen with a SATA cable. Thanks for providing the incentive for me to keep searching. http://h20566.www2.hp.com/portal/sit...4892.199480143 "Never bend a SATA data cable tighter than a 30 mm (1.18 in) radius. Never crease a SATA data cable." Notice that SATA power cables are not mentioned. This is because SATA power cables are not coaxial or twinaxial in nature, and there is no AC impedance to worry about in that respect. A SATA Power cable should not be bent so tightly as to break the copper wire inside. Paul Apropos of nothing (although I offer thanks for being motivated to look further above!), I still remember as a child not understanding how electricity could still get to the light bulb when there was a knot in the wire. Although some here might think otherwise, by "child" I mean when I was a kid of 4 years of age, not when I was 19 years old. -- I always thought that uploading to a friend in Switserland took more time than the other way round because it had to go up the mountains! -- |\ /| | \/ |@rk \../ \/os |
#20
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"BIOS problem" solved
On 06/11/2014 19:04, Rod Speed wrote:
Paul wrote Rod Speed wrote Paul wrote The SATA cable is a miniature dual twinax (one pair for serial TX, one pair for RX). And when I say "kink", I'm referring to the compression of the shield around one of the two conductors in that pair. That isnt going to happen with a SATA cable. Thanks for providing the incentive for me to keep searching. http://h20566.www2.hp.com/portal/sit...4892.199480143 "Never bend a SATA data cable tighter than a 30 mm (1.18 in) radius. Never crease a SATA data cable." That isnt for the reason you were talking about. PLEASE EXPLAIN. Notice that SATA power cables are not mentioned. This is because SATA power cables are not coaxial or twinaxial in nature, and there is no AC impedance to worry about in that respect. A SATA Power cable should not be bent so tightly as to break the copper wire inside. -- Brian Gregory (in the UK). To email me please remove all the letter vee from my email address. |
#21
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"BIOS problem" solved
On 06/11/2014 09:22, Rod Speed wrote:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote Rod Speed wrote I've never had a problem with my samsungs. Sounds painful! Nope, completely painless. Any of the small molecular weight alcohols are fine. The SATA cable should not be bent until it kinks. That's true of any signal cable like that. This has an impact on the dielectric insulation inside the cable. And can change the cable impedance. Cable impedance just isnt a problem with digital signals. If it wasn't, you wouldn't be worrying about kinks above. I don't worry about kinks above. It's an analogue world Nope. - especially at the sort of frequencies we work at these days. Not in the sense that the cable impedance matters. But even back in the days of 10 megabit ethernet, impedance was relevant (75 ohm coax, IIRR). That's why, ideally, you had terminators. But PATA didn't and SATA doesn't either. I'm sure SATA does have terminators, it's just that they're built in to the devices at the ends of the cable, and there are no devices connected anywhere in the middle of the cable. My understanding is that PATA does too but that they're not terminated very precisely, so that whether you have one drive or two it still works "well enough". -- Brian Gregory (in the UK). To email me please remove all the letter vee from my email address. |
#22
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"BIOS problem" solved
On 07/11/2014 05:34, Paul wrote:
Gene E. Bloch wrote: What does all that have to do with my youthful "understanding" of wire? Well, my young friend, this is wire with blue chewing gum inside. Try a bite... http://www.satacables.com/assets/images/IMG_188353.jpg Pauk So are you saying reflections off a kinked cable will be too small to matter or that the cable is so short that reflections don't matter? It almost sounds as if you're saying, the more ludicrous thing - that the cable doesn't have a characteristic impedance. -- Brian Gregory (in the UK). To email me please remove all the letter vee from my email address. |
#23
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"BIOS problem" solved
Brian Gregory wrote:
On 07/11/2014 05:34, Paul wrote: Gene E. Bloch wrote: What does all that have to do with my youthful "understanding" of wire? Well, my young friend, this is wire with blue chewing gum inside. Try a bite... http://www.satacables.com/assets/images/IMG_188353.jpg Pauk So are you saying reflections off a kinked cable will be too small to matter or that the cable is so short that reflections don't matter? It almost sounds as if you're saying, the more ludicrous thing - that the cable doesn't have a characteristic impedance. 1) The cable does have a characteristics impedance. The SATAIO committee has some test procedures for the cable, if you want more details about what they test for. The Z0_diff is likely to be 100 ohms. (There are a number of high speed differential interconnects that work the same way. LVDS is where the fun started. We had some proprietary interfaces at work, which predate LVDS, but they don't count, as they were a trifle crappy and a lot slower.) 2) The receiver has a differential termination resistor inside the chip housing. That terminates the line. If there wasn't a resistor in there, you could do fly-by termination. 3) Kinking or creasing the cable, compresses the blue-colored dielectric in the twinaxial thing. You can get a reflection off such a discontinuity. 4) The receiver is differential, and subtracts the signal from the two conductors in the twinax. When common mode noise is present on the cable, the receiver can eliminate the noise, by taking the difference. That also makes it a little difficult to predict what will happen if one or both conductors has a reflection on it. My suspicion is, kinking just one of the two dielectric areas, makes for a worse result. I'd hoped that someone on the Internet, had taken their SATA test gear, and bent a cable to see how much effect it has. If such a test result is not available, SATA packet transmission has a CRC error detector, and you could use counted cable errors as an indication of cabling damage. http://mindshare.com/files/ebooks/SA...Technology.pdf "In contrast, every packet of information sent across the SATA bus includes a Cyclic Redundancy Check (CRC). These checks are designed to detect every sin-gle and double-bit error that occurs. There exists an extremely high probability that CRC will detect virtually every error." So there is a way of determining that conditions are not the best on the cable. I thought one of the SMART indicators (one which cannot be cleared or reset), counted those on the drive end. While that Mindshare sentence expresses some optimism about the CRC code, I don't share that optimism. CRC can suppress errors and make the overall error characteristic about three orders of magnitude better than it might otherwise be (you can request retransmission if an error is detected). The presence of the CRC, does not imply that data corruption will never occur. Which is why, when CRC errors are detected and counted, you want to fix or replace the problematic cable. Before a multi-bit error burst does slide through. Paul |
#24
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"BIOS problem" solved
On Fri, 7 Nov 2014 13:19:00 +0100, Linea Recta wrote:
"Gene E. Bloch" schreef in bericht ... On Thu, 06 Nov 2014 05:34:42 -0500, Paul wrote: Rod Speed wrote: That isnt going to happen with a SATA cable. Thanks for providing the incentive for me to keep searching. http://h20566.www2.hp.com/portal/sit...4892.199480143 "Never bend a SATA data cable tighter than a 30 mm (1.18 in) radius. Never crease a SATA data cable." Notice that SATA power cables are not mentioned. This is because SATA power cables are not coaxial or twinaxial in nature, and there is no AC impedance to worry about in that respect. A SATA Power cable should not be bent so tightly as to break the copper wire inside. Paul Apropos of nothing (although I offer thanks for being motivated to look further above!), I still remember as a child not understanding how electricity could still get to the light bulb when there was a knot in the wire. Although some here might think otherwise, by "child" I mean when I was a kid of 4 years of age, not when I was 19 years old. -- I always thought that uploading to a friend in Switserland took more time than the other way round because it had to go up the mountains! You also have to deal with a redshift due to relativistic effects. It wild be a blueshift going downhill. Or is it the other way around? -- Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch) |
#25
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"BIOS problem" solved
On Fri, 07 Nov 2014 00:34:31 -0500, Paul wrote:
Gene E. Bloch wrote: What does all that have to do with my youthful "understanding" of wire? Well, my young friend, this is wire with blue chewing gum inside. Try a bite... http://www.satacables.com/assets/images/IMG_188353.jpg Pauk To tell the truth, I don't think any of the things you've mentioned or linked to are a problem for standard lampcord at 60Hz (though it was called 60 cycles back then). -- Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch) |
#26
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"BIOS problem" solved
On 2014-11-08, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Fri, 7 Nov 2014 13:19:00 +0100, Linea Recta wrote: "Gene E. Bloch" schreef in bericht ... On Thu, 06 Nov 2014 05:34:42 -0500, Paul wrote: Rod Speed wrote: That isnt going to happen with a SATA cable. Thanks for providing the incentive for me to keep searching. http://h20566.www2.hp.com/portal/sit...4892.199480143 "Never bend a SATA data cable tighter than a 30 mm (1.18 in) radius. Never crease a SATA data cable." Notice that SATA power cables are not mentioned. This is because SATA power cables are not coaxial or twinaxial in nature, and there is no AC impedance to worry about in that respect. A SATA Power cable should not be bent so tightly as to break the copper wire inside. Paul Apropos of nothing (although I offer thanks for being motivated to look further above!), I still remember as a child not understanding how electricity could still get to the light bulb when there was a knot in the wire. Although some here might think otherwise, by "child" I mean when I was a kid of 4 years of age, not when I was 19 years old. -- I always thought that uploading to a friend in Switserland took more time than the other way round because it had to go up the mountains! You also have to deal with a redshift due to relativistic effects. It wild be a blueshift going downhill. Or is it the other way around? It's always a money-shift in Switzerland. -- Godzilla |
#27
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"BIOS problem" solved
On Sat, 8 Nov 2014 14:43:15 -0800, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Fri, 7 Nov 2014 13:19:00 +0100, Linea Recta wrote: "Gene E. Bloch" schreef in bericht ... On Thu, 06 Nov 2014 05:34:42 -0500, Paul wrote: Rod Speed wrote: That isnt going to happen with a SATA cable. Thanks for providing the incentive for me to keep searching. http://h20566.www2.hp.com/portal/sit...4892.199480143 "Never bend a SATA data cable tighter than a 30 mm (1.18 in) radius. Never crease a SATA data cable." Notice that SATA power cables are not mentioned. This is because SATA power cables are not coaxial or twinaxial in nature, and there is no AC impedance to worry about in that respect. A SATA Power cable should not be bent so tightly as to break the copper wire inside. Paul Apropos of nothing (although I offer thanks for being motivated to look further above!), I still remember as a child not understanding how electricity could still get to the light bulb when there was a knot in the wire. Although some here might think otherwise, by "child" I mean when I was a kid of 4 years of age, not when I was 19 years old. -- I always thought that uploading to a friend in Switserland took more time than the other way round because it had to go up the mountains! You also have to deal with a redshift due to relativistic effects. It wild be a blueshift going downhill. Or is it the other way around? "it _would_ be a blueshift" Dumb spell checker won't read my mind... -- Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch) |
#28
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"BIOS problem" solved
Brian Gregory wrote
Rod Speed wrote Paul wrote Rod Speed wrote Paul wrote The SATA cable is a miniature dual twinax (one pair for serial TX, one pair for RX). And when I say "kink", I'm referring to the compression of the shield around one of the two conductors in that pair. That isnt going to happen with a SATA cable. Thanks for providing the incentive for me to keep searching. http://h20566.www2.hp.com/portal/sit...4892.199480143 "Never bend a SATA data cable tighter than a 30 mm (1.18 in) radius. Never crease a SATA data cable." That isnt for the reason you were talking about. PLEASE EXPLAIN. SATA data cables are too short for the effect he is talking about to occur. Notice that SATA power cables are not mentioned. This is because SATA power cables are not coaxial or twinaxial in nature, and there is no AC impedance to worry about in that respect. A SATA Power cable should not be bent so tightly as to break the copper wire inside. |
#29
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"BIOS problem" solved
Brian Gregory wrote
Rod Speed wrote J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote Rod Speed wrote I've never had a problem with my samsungs. Sounds painful! Nope, completely painless. Any of the small molecular weight alcohols are fine. The SATA cable should not be bent until it kinks. That's true of any signal cable like that. This has an impact on the dielectric insulation inside the cable. And can change the cable impedance. Cable impedance just isnt a problem with digital signals. If it wasn't, you wouldn't be worrying about kinks above. I don't worry about kinks above. It's an analogue world Nope. - especially at the sort of frequencies we work at these days. Not in the sense that the cable impedance matters. But even back in the days of 10 megabit ethernet, impedance was relevant (75 ohm coax, IIRR). That's why, ideally, you had terminators. But PATA didn't and SATA doesn't either. I'm sure SATA does have terminators, But not impedance matching terminators in the sense he is talking about. it's just that they're built in to the devices at the ends of the cable, and there are no devices connected anywhere in the middle of the cable. Not in the sense of impedance matching he is talking about. SATA data cables are too short for that approach to be needed. My understanding is that PATA does too No it does not, and they arent coax either. but that they're not terminated very precisely, Neither is SATA. so that whether you have one drive or two it still works "well enough". They don’t do impedance matching in the sense he is talking about. And when you have just the motherboard on one end and a drive on the middle connector, and nothing on the end connector, that end connector isnt even terminated at all. |
#30
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"BIOS problem" solved
"Brian Gregory" wrote in message ... On 07/11/2014 05:34, Paul wrote: Gene E. Bloch wrote: What does all that have to do with my youthful "understanding" of wire? Well, my young friend, this is wire with blue chewing gum inside. Try a bite... http://www.satacables.com/assets/images/IMG_188353.jpg So are you saying reflections off a kinked cable will be too small to matter Whether he is saying that or not, that is true. or that the cable is so short that reflections don't matter? Whether he is saying that or not, that is true. It almost sounds as if you're saying, the more ludicrous thing - that the cable doesn't have a characteristic impedance. He wasn’t saying that. |
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