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#31
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Buying Windows 7 - related question
KenW wrote:
On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 20:04:41 -0700, mike wrote: On 7/8/2018 7:29 PM, KenW wrote: If Dell does not have Windows 7 drivers for your hardware, you are stuck. KenW That's pessimistic. Hardware vendor drivers sometimes exist. Believe what you wish. Dell does their own thing with drivers (modifications) and many drivers from hardware manufactures will not work on Dell computers. Just went through that on my Dell. KenW The register level specification is only available to the hardware manufacturer. An OEM computer maker may re-arrange or re-package materials they received from the hardware manufacturer. For example, take a laptop video driver. The panel comes off a "digital bus" connection, perhaps LVDS. The panel has a certain size. The system needs VESA information so that the OS can find the screen. Some products have a low res and a high res variant, and the software materials have to match the setup. In such a situation, the OEM computer maker adds the necessary file to some software. And this is necessary, because the "panel" isn't actually PNP. The declarative software added to the package takes care of that. If the laptop panel had a hidden internal VGA connector, and the GPU had a VGA output, the two could be plugged together to make a PNP solution. Any driver would then be "bog standard". This is why desktop video cards with VGA and HDMI connectors work so well = they fully support PNP, without tricks. For something like Wifi, there might be firmware, and firmware versions. But some other driver types, would be bog standard, and no amount of splash graphic in the installer will change that. If my computer has an Asmedia two port SATA, that'll be a bog standard driver. ******* Microsoft has a great deal of leverage in this situation. If they want to strong-arm the hardware companies to not provide drivers for Windows 7, they seem to have some licensing terms (maybe for the "driver kit" that tells the hardware people how to make a driver), that give leverage. For example, no manufacturer is allowed to release their own USB2 or USB3 driver, for... Windows 10. When ever Microsoft finished the Class driver for a hardware standard, that's generally where the licensing cuts in and stops individual driver releases. Intel likes to "shave the edges" of this situation, by providing a USB driver. But, about ten lines into the file, you find #include usbport.inf which means basically "call the Microsoft driver and have Microsoft finish this please". The only thing the file actually does, is set a text string in Device Manager. It's my feeling, that Microsoft has used their licensing leverage, to stop driver support for Win7. Just as, in the case of the Microsoft attempt to do an x86 to ARM translator, Intel threatened to send the lawyer clown car. And so far this year, no Microsoft ARM based product has appeared with a 32 bit x86 run capability (I'm still waiting for a "battle royale" :-) ). So that's an example of the "vice versa", where Microsoft wanted something, and Intel told them to **** off. For some strange reason, you'll notice over the years, that Apple hasn't had too much trouble accommodating two instruction sets during transition periods. One presumes either the limited duration of the transition period, or some cash, quieted up such a situation. I think one of their solutions was done by Transitive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitive_Corporation "This technology was also licensed by Apple Computer in its transition from PowerPC to Intel (x86) CPUs, starting in 2006. Apple marketed this technology as "Rosetta". " I don't remember IBM or Motorola threatening Apple... Paul |
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#32
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Buying Windows 7 - related question
"Paul" wrote | It's my feeling, that Microsoft has used their licensing | leverage, to stop driver support for Win7. | That may be, but hardware companies can vary a lot. A few years ago I wanted drivers for an MSI board. MSI said they no longer supported my system. I then went to Via, the chipset maker. They had a single download that supported all then-current systems. MSI was either incompetent or sleazy. I doubt it was due to any outside influence. Dell does do extensive repackaging of drivers and may sometimes have hardware specific to their product. It might not be possible to be certain of getting drivers that will work. That's why I was saying above that it's a good idea to avoid Dell altogether. |
#33
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Buying Windows 7 - related question
Mayayana wrote:
"Paul" wrote | It's my feeling, that Microsoft has used their licensing | leverage, to stop driver support for Win7. | That may be, but hardware companies can vary a lot. A few years ago I wanted drivers for an MSI board. MSI said they no longer supported my system. I then went to Via, the chipset maker. They had a single download that supported all then-current systems. MSI was either incompetent or sleazy. I doubt it was due to any outside influence. Dell does do extensive repackaging of drivers and may sometimes have hardware specific to their product. It might not be possible to be certain of getting drivers that will work. That's why I was saying above that it's a good idea to avoid Dell altogether. If you want some real fun with drivers, take an Analog Devices sound chip as an example. The default support from Analog Devices is a year or two. So if in the year 2003, an AD sound chip goes on a P5E motherboard, the clock starts ticking. Maybe around the end of 2004, your busted AD driver still isn't working right. (There used to be a popping sound every ten minutes or so. Like an underrun or overrun.) Now, say in the year 2006, Asus makes another motherboard, that happens to use the same AD chip. Bingo, another year or two of drivers. If you're good with Google, maybe you discover the P6X uses a driver that you can re-use pn your P5E. The bus identifiers at the hardware level, aren't a factor of the motherboard model number, and so two motherboards separated in time like that, can "partner" on drivers. OK, your Asus well is running dry. Your AD chip still makes the popping sound. *Now*, you start datamining the HP and Dell sites. As they seem to be paying for slightly longer support than Asus does. It's still the same chip, only the four digit revision is a lot higher. I had loads of fun with that sound chip. I chased after drivers high and low. You have to be a creative Googler, if you "expect the very best" in drivers. Paul |
#34
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Buying Windows 7
Per Ed Cryer:
I want Win7! I want Win7! This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP. https://goo.gl/rBddg4 No clue as to that site, but I found out the hard way that some retailers sell "Bad" copies of 7. i.e. You pay your money, they send you a key, the key works.... but sometime later MS tells you that key is invalid and your copy of 7 starts slowly committing suicide until you supply a valid key. Been there, done that. Can't recall where I got my "Good" (so far....) copy, but it was one of the big-name retailers like B&H or NewEgg. -- Pete Cresswell |
#35
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Buying Windows 7
Per (PeteCresswell):
Can't recall where I got my "Good" (so far....) copy, but it was one of the big-name retailers like B&H or NewEgg. It was B&H. One caution: my copy came with a sort of "Scatch-and-Sniff" covering over the license key and I managed to render the key unreadable in my attempt to uncover it. But B&H humored me, issued an RMA, and I was able to get another copy. -- Pete Cresswell |
#36
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Buying Windows 7
PeteCresswell wrote:
Per Ed Cryer: I want Win7! I want Win7! This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP. https://goo.gl/rBddg4 No clue as to that site, but I found out the hard way that some retailers sell "Bad" copies of 7. i.e. You pay your money, they send you a key, the key works.... but sometime later MS tells you that key is invalid and your copy of 7 starts slowly committing suicide until you supply a valid key. Been there, done that. Me, too. Bought Office 2013 from an eBay seller. The key worked (got the ISO from Microsoft). About a month later, I noticed eBay had refunded the purchase. I didn't ask them for that. The key worked for about 3 years at which time I found out why eBay refunded me. It was a sliced key out of a volume license and Microsoft had invalidated the license when they discovered the pirate. The seller disappeared from eBay (probably started a new identity there). Windows updates had no problem. It was when I did a fresh install of the OS and then tried to install Office 2013 that the key got rejected. I don't remember how but that's when I checked the key against someplace at Microsoft to find out it was one seat from a volume license (all seats are to remain within the custody of the organization that got the volume license). Oh well, time to upgrade to Office 365 (but I spent a couple months trialing alternatives before deciding to get Office again). I got 3 1-year subscriptions to run consecutively from another eBay seller who I required send me the keys via e-mail (instead of wait for the license cards by postal mail) immediately after my eBay purchase was authorized, tested them (and that I got 3 years of subscription), and checked with Microsoft that they were good. I did not want to wait for the license cards to arrive in the mail before I could check they worked. I have used the Buyer Protection at eBay about 3 times: once for a product that was never delivered (that seller never responded, so I got eBay to refund), once for the wrong product (that seller simply refunded without requiring me to ship back), and once because the product was defective (that seller didn't require me to ship back the defective one for which I gave him pics of the damage and sent a new good one). You have to know what you're buying at eBay (or Amazon or Newegg or any etailer, especially those that operate frontend stores for sellers other than the entity whose web site you originally visit). I've seen counterfeit CR2032 batteries sold at eBay. You can tell by the missing bubble packaging features and mismatched markings but you have to research what the legit packaging looks like. When the price is exceptionally cheap, you have to be exceptionally careful. There are some good sales there but way too many scammers, and eBay isn't robust in proactively policing their site (mostly they are reactive to buyer reports, especially if they have to dole out a refund) since their imperative is to get a bite of every sale. The OP said he wants Windows 7. Could be he wants to image his old Win7 host, copy it onto a new host, and update the key to one that he just purchased. For 14 GBP, he isn't risking much to find out if the key is good. http://softwaregeeks.co.uk is registered through GoDaddy. Yet GoDaddy's WhoIs does NOT list the domain registrant. Doesn't seem to be a private domain registration (where the registrar usurps IANA's requirement the domain registrant be identified by listing GoDaddy as the registrant). Just no info in the domain registration as to who is the registrant. Seems iffy to me. If an etail is handing monetary transaction, they had damn well be identified by their domain registration. Look at the WhoIs for newegg.com and you get plenty of real data on the domain registrant. Could be the site is dumping their backstock of old Windows versions hence the low price versus some sites charging a premium, like full price, or higher, for old software they've had to shelve for many years. If you look at the site's ad for Windows 7 (using the URL that the OP gave), notice what they say is the SKU number: Win7ProCOA. Is that a valid SKU number? Why would a site feel the need to disable mouse scrolling forcing the visitor to use the scrollbar or page/arrow keys? Using the London street address the sites gives for their location, I could find anything on the buildings using Google Maps that noted their presence. Looks like an office complex and they're buried inside; i.e., the only way to find them is to go inside and read a directory placard. From a few samples of "products" sold at their site, all they are selling are license keys that are sent via e-mail (that have URLs to a Microsoft download site). In their About Us web page, they say "All of our software is available via instant digital download.". Well, don't need much of an office to process electronics orders and send e-mails with strings in them for keys. Their physical presence could be the equivalent of a 1-cubicle office with a desk, one computer, and Internet access. They aren't selling any physical products, just text strings (aka digital goods). They operate a digital storefront. Anyone can get those setup for cheap. |
#37
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Buying Windows 7
On 07/11/2018 1:37 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
PeteCresswell wrote: Per Ed Cryer: I want Win7! I want Win7! This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP. https://goo.gl/rBddg4 No clue as to that site, but I found out the hard way that some retailers sell "Bad" copies of 7. i.e. You pay your money, they send you a key, the key works.... but sometime later MS tells you that key is invalid and your copy of 7 starts slowly committing suicide until you supply a valid key. Been there, done that. Me, too. Bought Office 2013 from an eBay seller. The key worked (got the ISO from Microsoft). About a month later, I noticed eBay had refunded the purchase. I didn't ask them for that. The key worked for about 3 years at which time I found out why eBay refunded me. It was a sliced key out of a volume license and Microsoft had invalidated the license when they discovered the pirate. The seller disappeared from eBay (probably started a new identity there). Windows updates had no problem. It was when I did a fresh install of the OS and then tried to install Office 2013 that the key got rejected. I don't remember how but that's when I checked the key against someplace at Microsoft to find out it was one seat from a volume license (all seats are to remain within the custody of the organization that got the volume license). Oh well, time to upgrade to Office 365 (but I spent a couple months trialing alternatives before deciding to get Office again). I got 3 1-year subscriptions to run consecutively from another eBay seller who I required send me the keys via e-mail (instead of wait for the license cards by postal mail) immediately after my eBay purchase was authorized, tested them (and that I got 3 years of subscription), and checked with Microsoft that they were good. I did not want to wait for the license cards to arrive in the mail before I could check they worked. I have used the Buyer Protection at eBay about 3 times: once for a product that was never delivered (that seller never responded, so I got eBay to refund), once for the wrong product (that seller simply refunded without requiring me to ship back), and once because the product was defective (that seller didn't require me to ship back the defective one for which I gave him pics of the damage and sent a new good one). You have to know what you're buying at eBay (or Amazon or Newegg or any etailer, especially those that operate frontend stores for sellers other than the entity whose web site you originally visit). I've seen counterfeit CR2032 batteries sold at eBay. You can tell by the missing bubble packaging features and mismatched markings but you have to research what the legit packaging looks like. When the price is exceptionally cheap, you have to be exceptionally careful. There are some good sales there but way too many scammers, and eBay isn't robust in proactively policing their site (mostly they are reactive to buyer reports, especially if they have to dole out a refund) since their imperative is to get a bite of every sale. The OP said he wants Windows 7. Could be he wants to image his old Win7 host, copy it onto a new host, and update the key to one that he just purchased. For 14 GBP, he isn't risking much to find out if the key is good. http://softwaregeeks.co.uk is registered through GoDaddy. Yet GoDaddy's WhoIs does NOT list the domain registrant. Doesn't seem to be a private domain registration (where the registrar usurps IANA's requirement the domain registrant be identified by listing GoDaddy as the registrant). Just no info in the domain registration as to who is the registrant. Seems iffy to me. If an etail is handing monetary transaction, they had damn well be identified by their domain registration. Look at the WhoIs for newegg.com and you get plenty of real data on the domain registrant. Could be the site is dumping their backstock of old Windows versions hence the low price versus some sites charging a premium, like full price, or higher, for old software they've had to shelve for many years. If you look at the site's ad for Windows 7 (using the URL that the OP gave), notice what they say is the SKU number: Win7ProCOA. Is that a valid SKU number? Why would a site feel the need to disable mouse scrolling forcing the visitor to use the scrollbar or page/arrow keys? Using the London street address the sites gives for their location, I could find anything on the buildings using Google Maps that noted their presence. Looks like an office complex and they're buried inside; i.e., the only way to find them is to go inside and read a directory placard. From a few samples of "products" sold at their site, all they are selling are license keys that are sent via e-mail (that have URLs to a Microsoft download site). In their About Us web page, they say "All of our software is available via instant digital download.". Well, don't need much of an office to process electronics orders and send e-mails with strings in them for keys. Their physical presence could be the equivalent of a 1-cubicle office with a desk, one computer, and Internet access. They aren't selling any physical products, just text strings (aka digital goods). They operate a digital storefront. Anyone can get those setup for cheap. I wouldn't **** on Ebay if it was on fire! Rene |
#38
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Buying Windows 7
Rene Lamontagne wrote:
On 07/11/2018 1:37 PM, VanguardLH wrote: PeteCresswell wrote: Per Ed Cryer: I want Win7! I want Win7! This site offers Win7 Pro for 13.99 GBP. https://goo.gl/rBddg4 No clue as to that site, but I found out the hard way that some retailers sell "Bad" copies of 7. i.e. You pay your money, they send you a key, the key works.... but sometime later MS tells you that key is invalid and your copy of 7 starts slowly committing suicide until you supply a valid key. Been there, done that. Me, too. Bought Office 2013 from an eBay seller. The key worked (got the ISO from Microsoft). About a month later, I noticed eBay had refunded the purchase. I didn't ask them for that. The key worked for about 3 years at which time I found out why eBay refunded me. It was a sliced key out of a volume license and Microsoft had invalidated the license when they discovered the pirate. The seller disappeared from eBay (probably started a new identity there). Windows updates had no problem. It was when I did a fresh install of the OS and then tried to install Office 2013 that the key got rejected. I don't remember how but that's when I checked the key against someplace at Microsoft to find out it was one seat from a volume license (all seats are to remain within the custody of the organization that got the volume license). Oh well, time to upgrade to Office 365 (but I spent a couple months trialing alternatives before deciding to get Office again). I got 3 1-year subscriptions to run consecutively from another eBay seller who I required send me the keys via e-mail (instead of wait for the license cards by postal mail) immediately after my eBay purchase was authorized, tested them (and that I got 3 years of subscription), and checked with Microsoft that they were good. I did not want to wait for the license cards to arrive in the mail before I could check they worked. I have used the Buyer Protection at eBay about 3 times: once for a product that was never delivered (that seller never responded, so I got eBay to refund), once for the wrong product (that seller simply refunded without requiring me to ship back), and once because the product was defective (that seller didn't require me to ship back the defective one for which I gave him pics of the damage and sent a new good one). You have to know what you're buying at eBay (or Amazon or Newegg or any etailer, especially those that operate frontend stores for sellers other than the entity whose web site you originally visit). I've seen counterfeit CR2032 batteries sold at eBay. You can tell by the missing bubble packaging features and mismatched markings but you have to research what the legit packaging looks like. When the price is exceptionally cheap, you have to be exceptionally careful. There are some good sales there but way too many scammers, and eBay isn't robust in proactively policing their site (mostly they are reactive to buyer reports, especially if they have to dole out a refund) since their imperative is to get a bite of every sale. The OP said he wants Windows 7. Could be he wants to image his old Win7 host, copy it onto a new host, and update the key to one that he just purchased. For 14 GBP, he isn't risking much to find out if the key is good. http://softwaregeeks.co.uk is registered through GoDaddy. Yet GoDaddy's WhoIs does NOT list the domain registrant. Doesn't seem to be a private domain registration (where the registrar usurps IANA's requirement the domain registrant be identified by listing GoDaddy as the registrant). Just no info in the domain registration as to who is the registrant. Seems iffy to me. If an etail is handing monetary transaction, they had damn well be identified by their domain registration. Look at the WhoIs for newegg.com and you get plenty of real data on the domain registrant. Could be the site is dumping their backstock of old Windows versions hence the low price versus some sites charging a premium, like full price, or higher, for old software they've had to shelve for many years. If you look at the site's ad for Windows 7 (using the URL that the OP gave), notice what they say is the SKU number: Win7ProCOA. Is that a valid SKU number? Why would a site feel the need to disable mouse scrolling forcing the visitor to use the scrollbar or page/arrow keys? Using the London street address the sites gives for their location, I could find anything on the buildings using Google Maps that noted their presence. Looks like an office complex and they're buried inside; i.e., the only way to find them is to go inside and read a directory placard. From a few samples of "products" sold at their site, all they are selling are license keys that are sent via e-mail (that have URLs to a Microsoft download site). In their About Us web page, they say "All of our software is available via instant digital download.". Well, don't need much of an office to process electronics orders and send e-mails with strings in them for keys. Their physical presence could be the equivalent of a 1-cubicle office with a desk, one computer, and Internet access. They aren't selling any physical products, just text strings (aka digital goods). They operate a digital storefront. Anyone can get those setup for cheap. I wouldn't **** on Ebay if it was on fire! Rene The same could be said about any online site. Users have reported problems with Newegg, and Amazon, and Walmart (all of which operate storefronts for other sellers so you may not be buying from the site you visit, especially Amazon who doesn't sell anything themself). Every site has bad reports. Hell, if you go by user posts in forums and here, every software is ****. That's because users don't post about the virtues and extol the wonder of the software but only post to report problems, so obviously that crowd will be skewed in perspective. Doesn't have to be online, either. Users report problems at car shops, department stores, gas stations, yadda yadda. |
#39
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Buying Windows 7
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#40
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Buying Windows 7
wrote
| The same could be said about any online site. Users have reported | problems with Newegg, and Amazon, and Walmart (all of which operate | storefronts for other sellers so you may not be buying from the site you | visit, especially Amazon who doesn't sell anything themself). Another problem is that things change a lot. Tom's toothpaste used to be made by Tom. Now it's made by Colgate. Likewise, Ben and Jerry's was bought out. The amazingly good Smart Food popcorn was bought by Frito-Lay and that was the end of amazingly good. (I read that all but one of the "idealists" who started Smart Food agreed to sell out.) American cars are made in Haiti while Japanese cars are made in the US, perhaps with Chinese parts. Since companies, names and trademarks can be sold, it's hard to depend on reputations. I used to buy all computer parts from TigerDirect. I loved them. Then they sold out to PCMall and my last order was just like Amazon: TG was just middlemanning. Each part came from a different dealer, with the result that I had to track 6-8 packages instead of 1. If Acme in Ohio is going to sell me a motherboard, then why not just cut out the TG middleman and buy direct from Acme? Isn't that the kind of thing the Internet is supposed to be good for? Similarly, I used to buy all software from Buycheapsoftware.com. I bought Visual Studio 6 from them. I bought several Windows disks to build computers for friends. I bought Linux disks.... Now they're gone. I don't know what I'll do next time I decide to build a computer. I prefer not to deal with Amazon, out of principle and have never actually bought anything from them. Lately I've been trying to avoid Whole Foods as I get a taste of how Amazon works. TheAmazon takeover of WF started out with an advertising blitz about how amazon would usher in cheaper prices. A few prices were a little cheaper for awhile. Then that ended. For instance, organic raisins had been $4.29/#. Amazon put the price down and added a little sign about how WF + Amazon will save money. That lasted a couple of months. Now the same raisins are back to the old price, with a sign that says, "Everyday Low Price!". Today I stocked up on fruit from Star Market, which was selling the same stuff for an average of half what WF is charging! The only reasonable prices now are a few sale items that only Prime members can buy. One example of WF price gouging: Eastern peaches from the exact same distributor at both stores. WF: $3.49/#. Star: $1.59/#. WF grapes from Mexico: $5-6/#. Star organic grapes from California: $3.49/#. It's nuts. The WF prices under Amazon jump all over, clearly with no relation to their costs. People might like the temporary good deals at Amazon, but it's a deal with the devil. The more they take over, the worse it will get. Last I heard, they're still losing money on sales. They make their profit from web services. They're not going to keep losing money. Once they establish a monopoly, Amazon will start milking the suckers who though they were a great deal. ..... And that's not even getting into their maltreatment of employees. If people don't hold these companies accountable then they won't be accountable. |
#41
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Buying Windows 7
On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 21:24:54 -0500, wrote:
To say such nonsense that *all* businesses can give one a problem is hyper reaching for an example. Ebay give loads of people problems. As far as I'm concerned, they are crooks. They support the thieves over the honest customer. nonsense. They tend to take the customer's side, much to the annoyance of some sellers. |
#42
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Buying Windows 7
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#43
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Buying Windows 7
On 12/07/2018 12:10, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
My recent experience with ebay has been extremely positive: where problems have arisen I've generally received refunds, in at least one case extremely rapidly, and in several cases with the seller not wanting the goods back. Yes, despite having the goods twice, once as an order, the second as a replacement when the original didn't work, and the replacement didn't work either. I've got the items, though useless to me, and I got my money back. though the few cases where I _have_ bought direct from China things have been fine, just slow (though not any slower than promised). The items above were from China. With another item originating from China but being sold in the UK, the supplier decided it was faulty or substandard before dispatching it, and emailed me to ask if I was prepared to wait a while for a replacement, to which I agreed. When the replacement stock arrived, it too was faulty or substandard, so at that point I cancelled the order, and obtained the item from the next cheapest supplier. Despite my asking the question directly, it was never explained what was wrong with the original supplier's stock, but my guess is the UK mains lead was not fused, because that's how the unit from the second supplier came - no matter, I've been working with PCs for decades, and have spare kettle leads coming out of my ears. |
#45
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Buying Windows 7
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