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#16
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"Maybe all those people clinging to Windows 7 are on to something after all."
"Wolf K" wrote in message
... On 2018-09-14 15:39, NY wrote: [...] The real problem with Win 10 is that it doesn't have a proper email/newsgroup client, now that Windows Live Mail has been withdrawn from being available for download. T [...] I don't think that's a problem. :-) The first release of WLM was OK - very similar to OE and to Windows Mail on Vista. The only difference between OE and WM/WLM is that OE stored all the messages for a folder in the same file, whereas WM and WLM use one file per email, which takes longer to search "all messages containing this text" because the program does lots of file opens. The second version of WLM had the dreaded Microsoft Ribbon interface and is horrible to use. I can never remember where the account details are accessed. But it does have a built-in calendar which was in WM on Vista but for some reason was removed from the first version of WLM. It also tries to force you to attach photos etc using web sharing rather than as a MIME/UUENCODED part of the message. This is more efficient when you are looking for new messages, but in my experience there are too many cases when the recipient is forced to create an MS account simply in order to see attachments on an incoming mail. Thunderbird seems good. It certainly handles quoting of email/newsgroup messages when replying - it even re-wraps text, It would be nice to be able to click on the "To" button and see the address book from which you can tick all the recipients that you want. I'm all in favour of the MS philosophy of providing several ways of achieving the same result, so as to suit all preferences. It's a shame that more email programs don't do what OE/WM/WLM do and save the email account details (POP/SMTP server, username/password, ports) to a config file which can easily be imported to another instance of the program on another PC so you don't have to copy all the details out and have the dreaded "now WTF is the password" problem. Even Outlook doesn't have that - it's only the non-Office email programs that do it. By the way, what were MS smoking when they decided to use the same name Outlook both for their Office email program and also their mail domain. The possibilities for confusion are notorious. |
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#17
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"Maybe all those people clinging to Windows 7 are on to somethingafter all."
On 15/09/2018 13:52, Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-09-15 05:10, NY wrote: It's a shame that more email programs don't do what OE/WM/WLM do and save the email account details (POP/SMTP server, username/password, ports) to a config file which can easily be imported to another instance of the program on another PC so you don't have to copy all the details out and have the dreaded "now WTF is the password" problem. Even Outlook doesn't have that - it's only the non-Office email programs that do it. Actually Outlook *used* to be able to export account details to *.iaf files, so you could export on one machine, copy the files to another, and import there, but somewhere in between Outlook 2000 and 2010 the dickheads at M$ decided that this, and those very convenient menus that we'd all learnt to use, was far too convenient for their users, so when setting up Office 2010, I had to reconfigure the accounts in Outlook 2010 from scratch, which, as you say, was a convoluted time-wasting hassle. I got it all working, but to me it made the point again about the dangers of having something as important as one's email history in an bespoke format that few other programs can read, so that's why I converted it all to T'bird, and now use that as my email client. Er, all email clients save account details, etc. They just do it differently. In Tbird, it's all stored in a folder labeled "Profiles". Which can store two or more different profiles, each with its own accounts, etc. Profiles can be reused not only in different instances of TB, and on different PCs, they can be reused on TB running on different operating systems. Yes. FTR, by default in Vista+ they are stored in ... C:\Users\username\Application Data\Thunderbird .... (ISTR that there is a profiles directory there, and inside that the directory for the default profile created upon installation, which has a random name, but as I've moved all such data to a separate partition, and created separate profiles for Mail and News as previously described, these two latter directories on the C: drive no longer exist, the only profile data that remains there is the profiles.ini file to tell Thunderbird where my profiles now are). |
#18
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"Maybe all those people clinging to Windows 7 are on to something after all."
In message , Wolf K
writes: On 2018-09-14 15:39, NY wrote: [...] The real problem with Win 10 is that it doesn't have a proper email/newsgroup client, now that Windows Live Mail has been withdrawn from being available for download. T [...] I don't think that's a problem. :-) (-: - WLM, 15 on at least, was the bane of many newsgroups - I know people who killfiled its users! I didn't know it had been withdrawn. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf They are public servants, so we will threat them rather as Flashman treats servants. - Stephen Fry on some people's attitudo to the BBC, in Radio Times, 3-9 July 2010 |
#19
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"Maybe all those people clinging to Windows 7 are on to somethingafter all."
On 09/15/2018 09:17 AM, Java Jive wrote:
Actually Outlook *used* to be able to export account details to *.iaf files, so you could export on one machine, copy the files to another, and import there, but somewhere in between Outlook 2000 and 2010 the dickheads at M$ decided that this, and those very convenient menus that we'd all learnt to use, was far too convenient for their users, so when setting up Office 2010, I had to reconfigure the accounts in Outlook 2010 from scratch, which, as you say, was a convoluted time-wasting hassle.Â* I got it all working, but to me it made the point again about the dangers of having something as important as one's email history in an bespoke format that few other programs can read, so that's why I convertedÂ*itÂ*allÂ*toÂ*T'bird,Â*andÂ*nowÂ*useÂ*th atÂ*asÂ*myÂ*emailÂ*client. I've backed up the *.PST file for outlook 2007 on my wife's machine many times before a reload and then just dropped it back and all is there, mail wise. That file includes everything to get and send mail but IIRC it lacks configuration of Outlook itself, so view, colors, etc need reset. Still, better than having to setup the POP info though. Al. |
#20
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"Maybe all those people clinging to Windows 7 are on to somethingafter all."
On 15/09/2018 14:47, Big Al wrote:
On 09/15/2018 09:17 AM, Java Jive wrote: Actually Outlook *used* to be able to export account details to *.iaf files, so you could export on one machine, copy the files to another, and import there, but somewhere in between Outlook 2000 and 2010 the dickheads at M$ decided that this, and those very convenient menus that we'd all learnt to use, was far too convenient for their users, so when setting up Office 2010, I had to reconfigure the accounts in Outlook 2010 from scratch, which, as you say, was a convoluted time-wasting hassle.Â* I got it all working, but to me it made the point again about the dangers of having something as important as one's email history in an bespoke format that few other programs can read, so that's why I convertedÂ*itÂ*allÂ*toÂ*T'bird,Â*andÂ*nowÂ*useÂ*th atÂ*asÂ*myÂ*emailÂ*client. I've backed up the *.PST file for outlook 2007 on my wife's machine many times before a reload and then just dropped it back and all is there, mail wise.Â*Â*Â* That file includes everything to get and send mail but IIRC it lacks configuration of Outlook itself, so view, colors, etc need reset.Â*Â* Still, better than having to setup the POP info though. Yes, AFAICR the evolution of the Outlook species between 2000 & 2010 was roughly ... 2000: Kept all the contacts, calendar, mails, notes in a monolithic *.pst file - I think it held everything *except* the account details, which were held in the registry - hence the need to transfer them by exporting and importing *.iaf files. If you had more than email account, they'd all be in the one file. 2010: Everything, including the account details, is now in the *.pst files - note the plural, if you have more than one email account, you now have more than one *.pst file. There is nothing wrong with the new arrangement of keeping the account details in *.pst files, but FFS why is it that 2010 can import older *.pst files but not the corresponding *.iaf files? I could import all my old emails from 2000, but not the corresponding account details! Duh! But, while I used Outlook 2000 for many years and 2010 for a while, I think there are major problems with both versions ... I really don't like the fact that all my emails are held in a single monolithic file of a bespoke proprietary format and encryption. For one thing, if it gets corrupted, it could prove very challenging to retrieve anything useful from it. For another, if you want to clean out old mails, you can't just delete them as individual files from your hard drive, but leave them on your backup server in case of need, instead you have to backup the entire file to a new name, and then delete the emails from the originally named file, because otherwise when you next back up to the server, it'll overwrite the version of the file with the old mails in it. Even now that you've backed up the old version of the file with the old mails to a suitable back up name, you've still got a devil of a job to find one particular old mail which you now find that you need to refer to - is it in the current file, last year's back up, just how many years' back up files are you going to have to search to find it? I'd rather mails were kept as individual files, so that if one gets corrupted, only one email is lost, and in a format that is open source, though obviously it still needs to be encrypted. That helps guard against corruption, but you'd still need some method of searching a back-up directory on a server from within your usual email client. AFAIK, no email client can do this. |
#21
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"Maybe all those people clinging to Windows 7 are on to something after all."
"Java Jive" wrote in message
news Yes, AFAICR the evolution of the Outlook species between 2000 & 2010 was roughly ... 2000: Kept all the contacts, calendar, mails, notes in a monolithic *.pst file - I think it held everything *except* the account details, which were held in the registry - hence the need to transfer them by exporting and importing *.iaf files. If you had more than email account, they'd all be in the one file. 2010: Everything, including the account details, is now in the *.pst iles - note the plural, if you have more than one email account, you now have more than one *.pst file. There is nothing wrong with the new arrangement of keeping the account details in *.pst files, but FFS why is it that 2010 can import older *.pst files but not the corresponding *.iaf files? I could import all my old emails from 2000, but not the corresponding account details! Duh! But, while I used Outlook 2000 for many years and 2010 for a while, I think there are major problems with both versions ... I really don't like the fact that all my emails are held in a single monolithic file of a bespoke proprietary format and encryption. For one thing, if it gets corrupted, it could prove very challenging to retrieve anything useful from it. For another, if you want to clean out old mails, you can't just delete them as individual files from your hard drive, but leave them on your backup server in case of need, instead you have to backup the entire file to a new name, and then delete the emails from the originally named file, because otherwise when you next back up to the server, it'll overwrite the version of the file with the old mails in it. Even now that you've backed up the old version of the file with the old mails to a suitable back up name, you've still got a devil of a job to find one particular old mail which you now find that you need to refer o - is it in the current file, last year's back up, just how many years' back up files are you going to have to search to find it? I'd rather mails were kept as individual files, so that if one gets corrupted, only one email is lost, and in a format that is open source, though obviously it still needs to be encrypted. That helps guard against corruption, but you'd still need some method of searching a back-up directory on a server from within your usual email client. AFAIK, no email client can do this. I prefer this approach too. And for another reason as well: if you take frequent backups of your email folders, you only have to back up the new or changed .eml files with WM or WLM. With OE, which stored all the emails in an email folder in a single .dbx file, you'd have to back up that whole file if there were any changes to emails in the email folder. With Outlook, you have to backup the whole .pst file (and I've seen some which are a couple of GB) for *any* change in *any* of the email folders. If a backup takes a long time, people will not do it as frequently. |
#22
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"Maybe all those people clinging to Windows 7 are on to something after all."
In message , Java Jive
writes: [] I really don't like the fact that all my emails are held in a single monolithic file of a bespoke proprietary format and encryption. For one thing, if it gets corrupted, it could prove very challenging to retrieve anything useful from it. For another, if you want to clean AFAIK, all - Windows, anyway - do that. (The degree of proprietariness - and encryption - varying.) [] I'd rather mails were kept as individual files, so that if one gets So would I, but I'm unaware of any Windows client that does it that way. I think the original reason was speed and storage - when they started doing it, most emails were probably a few hundred bytes but would use (say) 4k if stored as a file, which could build up, as well as perhaps speed problems in accessing such files. And for whatever reason they've never changed. corrupted, only one email is lost, and in a format that is open source, Berkeley, I think it's called. though obviously it still needs to be encrypted. That helps guard For private single-user use, not even that, necessarily! (If nothing else, any such encryption means you couldn't use any sort of search mechanism outside the email client.) I accept you might want it for security, especially in a multi-user system. against corruption, but you'd still need some method of searching a back-up directory on a server from within your usual email client. AFAIK, no email client can do this. I don't K of one either. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf As individuals, politicians are usually quite charming, so it is quite hard to dislike them, but in most cases, it is worth making the effort. - Mark Williams (UMRA), 2013-4-26 |
#23
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"Maybe all those people clinging to Windows 7 are on to something after all."
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote
| I really don't like the fact that all my emails are held in a single | monolithic file of a bespoke proprietary format and encryption. For | one thing, if it gets corrupted, it could prove very challenging to | retrieve anything useful from it. For another, if you want to clean | | AFAIK, all - Windows, anyway - do that. (The degree of proprietariness - | and encryption - varying.) I have TBird and OE. Both store in a "flat file" with minimal structure and no encryption. (Though some emails these days are actually sent with Base-64 encoding of the text. Email clients decode that so it's not visible in general usage. It doesn't constitute encryption. I don't know why they do it. Usually Base-64 is just used to transport binary files as text.) There's a program called undbx that can convert an OE DBX to single email files. TBird email storage can be parsed directly. I wrote my own utility awhile back: www.jsware.net/jsware/msicode.php5#msiebase It's an HTA interface (local webpage) powered by VBScript and MSI database files. I use it to back up years worth of email in a manner that can be easily searched. (MSI search is very fast.) There's Base-64 decoding built-in for things like attachments, though I haven't been saving large attachments in the database. |
#24
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"Maybe all those people clinging to Windows 7 are on to somethingafter all."
On 09/15/2018 04:09 AM, T wrote:
On 09/14/2018 11:53 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote: I do too (run Linux). I do have a few programs that require Windows, and I use 7 for them. I put my Windows in a virtual machines.Â* W7 runs okay; W-Nein (w10) os a dog. Same here. -- 101 days until the winter celebration (Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:00:00 AM for 1 day). Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ "No god ever gave any man anything, nor ever answered any prayer at any time -nor ever will." [Madelyn O'Hair, "An Atheist Epic"] |
#25
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"Maybe all those people clinging to Windows 7 are on to somethingafter all."
On 09/15/2018 04:10 AM, NY wrote:
[snip] By the way, what were MS smoking when they decided to use the same name Outlook both for their Office email program and also their mail domain. The possibilities for confusion are notorious. and Outlook Express, which many call "Outlook". Like Java / JavaScript, they benefit from user confusion. It makes them more dependent on the corporation. I once saw a documentary that said that corporations are essentially psychopaths (not caring about anything but profit). Makes sense. |
#26
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"Maybe all those people clinging to Windows 7 are on to somethingafter all."
On 09/15/2018 07:52 AM, Wolf K wrote:
[snip] Er, all email clients save account details, etc. They just do it differently. In Tbird, it's all stored in a folder labeled "Profiles". Which can store two or more different profiles, each with its own accounts, etc. Profiles can be reused not only in different instances of TB, and on different PCs, they can be reused on TB running on different operating systems. Best, I have successfully copied Thunderbird and Firefox profiles between Windows and Linux. That's one way TB is better than some programs, all the data is in one obvious place. -- 101 days until the winter celebration (Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:00:00 AM for 1 day). Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ "No god ever gave any man anything, nor ever answered any prayer at any time -nor ever will." [Madelyn O'Hair, "An Atheist Epic"] |
#27
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"Maybe all those people clinging to Windows 7 are on to something after all."
NY wrote:
[...] It's a shame that more email programs don't do what OE/WM/WLM do and save the email account details (POP/SMTP server, username/password, ports) to a config file which can easily be imported to another instance of the program on another PC so you don't have to copy all the details out and have the dreaded "now WTF is the password" problem. Even Outlook doesn't have that - it's only the non-Office email programs that do it. With the 'ImportExportTools' Extension, you can export and import TB profiles. Without Extensions or/and Plugins, Thunderbird's functionality can be rather limited, compared to MUAs such as OE/WM/WLM. So when something seems to be missing', it's worth your while to have a look on what's available via the 'Add-ons manager'. For example, I needed the 'ImportExportTools' Extension to import messages from Windows Mail and the 'Change quote and reply format' Extension in order to be able to reply to mail in a sane (plain) text format. |
#28
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"Maybe all those people clinging to Windows 7 are on to something after all."
notX wrote:
.... I once saw a documentary that said that corporations are essentially psychopaths (not caring about anything but profit). Makes sense. Which documentary was that? I'd like to see it. -- Quote of the Week: "Number fourteen. The naughty bits of an ant." --Monty Python's Flying Circus Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly. /\___/\Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org / http://antfarm.ma.cx / /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit- | |o o| | ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and URL/link. \ _ / ( ) |
#29
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"Maybe all those people clinging to Windows 7 are on to something after all."
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 18:24:43 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Frank Slootweg writes: [quoted text muted] *am* clinging to Windows 8.1, even while Windows 10 was *supposed* to be better than 8.1 (Yeah, RIGHT! :-(). [1] Went from (XP to) Vista to 8.1, just before 10 broke out. I like "broke out". Makes it sound like an epidemic (which is probably what you intended, and arguably it is one). +1 For the first year, roughly, it was spread like malware (or a PUP, if you want to be mealymouthed). -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://BrownMath.com/ http://OakRoadSystems.com/ Shikata ga nai... |
#30
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"Maybe all those people clinging to Windows 7 are on to something after all."
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 13:53:59 -0500, Mark Lloyd wrote:
I tried the Win 8 preview. The first thing I thought when it installed was how I really don't want an iPhone (since that's what it looked like, not like Windows). Too late now, I guess, but Windows key + D gets you back to the normal desktop, and there's a setting to boot into the desktop at login, instead of the default Fisher-Price interface. But I couldn't get around the missing Start Menu. I tried for over a year on my Win 8 laptop, and finally, with a sigh of relief, installed Classic Shell. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://BrownMath.com/ http://OakRoadSystems.com/ Shikata ga nai... |
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