Off the wall cloning question

Is it possible to just clone a single partition to another drive and
have it end up in the exact matching place on the new drive?

I've got a friend's system here with a dead HD. But I'd like to try to
at least save the recovery partition and see if the recovery partition
on the new drive will restore that drive.

It's possible the recovery partition can't be saved/rescued, just want
to try.



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 42.0
Thunderbird 38.0.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

| Is it possible to just clone a single partition to another drive and
| have it end up in the exact matching place on the new drive?
|
| I've got a friend's system here with a dead HD. But I'd like to try to
| at least save the recovery partition and see if the recovery partition
| on the new drive will restore that drive.
|
| It's possible the recovery partition can't be saved/rescued, just want
| to try.
|

You can copy partitions using any decent
partitioning program. This discussion has come
up before. I use BootIt and have no trouble
doing something like moving the partitions to
a new hard disk. I just plug in the new disk,
run BootIt from a CD, then copy as needed.
I did exactly what you're asking recently. I
think it was an HP or a Dell. I first reinstalled
the factory image, then made a disk image
backup, then copied both C drive and the restore
partition to a new hard disk. Then switched
out the hard disks. That really should be done
for any computer over about 5 years old. It's
not worth waiting for the hard disk to die.



There are a few caveats:

* You need a capable program, not just a disk
cloner or backup program.

* You'll need to be sure you've got the right
partition set active when you boot the new
disk.

* You'll also need to be sure that the boot files
are set up properly. (That shouldn't be an issue
if you copy the old partitions in the same order.)

* If the old disk is dying there's a possibility
that your copy will fail or be corrupt. If your
copy operation fails with something like an
"unable to read from disk" error then it may
be too late to save the old restore partition.

On 12/22/15 9:14 AM, Mayayana wrote:
| Is it possible to just clone a single partition to another drive and
| have it end up in the exact matching place on the new drive?
|
| I've got a friend's system here with a dead HD. But I'd like to try to
| at least save the recovery partition and see if the recovery partition
| on the new drive will restore that drive.
|
| It's possible the recovery partition can't be saved/rescued, just want
| to try.
|

You can copy partitions using any decent
partitioning program. This discussion has come
up before. I use BootIt and have no trouble
doing something like moving the partitions to
a new hard disk. I just plug in the new disk,
run BootIt from a CD, then copy as needed.
I did exactly what you're asking recently. I
think it was an HP or a Dell. I first reinstalled
the factory image, then made a disk image
backup, then copied both C drive and the restore
partition to a new hard disk. Then switched
out the hard disks. That really should be done
for any computer over about 5 years old. It's
not worth waiting for the hard disk to die.

Not quite what I need to do, unfortunately. The hard disk has already
died for all intents and purposes. I can't even do a factory recovery.
But I'm not sure that part of the drive is defective. I'm hoping I
can copy the recovery partition only, put it back in the same spot on a
new drive, then run the recovery and that will rebuild everything.

I still need to ask them if they made the recovery disks when they bough
the computer, but I doubt they did.

Right now, just looking at possible options, since no decision will be
made until after the holidays.



There are a few caveats:

* You need a capable program, not just a disk
cloner or backup program.

* You'll need to be sure you've got the right
partition set active when you boot the new
disk.

* You'll also need to be sure that the boot files
are set up properly. (That shouldn't be an issue
if you copy the old partitions in the same order.)

* If the old disk is dying there's a possibility
that your copy will fail or be corrupt. If your
copy operation fails with something like an
"unable to read from disk" error then it may
be too late to save the old restore partition.

This is what I actually expect to happen.



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 42.0
Thunderbird 38.0.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

|
| Not quite what I need to do, unfortunately. The hard disk has already
| died for all intents and purposes. I can't even do a factory recovery.
| But I'm not sure that part of the drive is defective.

It's still the same thing. If the recovery partition
is not corrupt then a partition program may be
able to copy it. If the disk is really dead -- not
spinning -- then you could only send it out to be
rebuilt, at best.

I was just giving an example of what I'd done.
You shouldn't need to do the restore on the old disk.
But you probably do want to replicate the layout
of partitions on the new disk. You should be able
to just create an empty primary partition as a
stand-in for C drive. The restore software would
then overwrite the dummy C drive with the restore.
(I don't know if I've ever actually done that, but
I can't think of any reason it wouldn't work.)

Another thing you might try would be to copy
the restore partition -- or a Windows install --
from another, similar computer. I've never needed
to do that, but my impression is that Dell, for
example, uses the same BIOS-embedded activation
on all of their PCs. So a Dell version of Windows
may work on another Dell PC. (Not including
the hardware issues.)

A separate issue would be if the computer had a
separate boot partition that's now dead. That
should also be a surmountable problem, but a
further complication.

In article ,
says...

On 12/22/15 9:14 AM, Mayayana wrote:
| Is it possible to just clone a single partition to another drive and
| have it end up in the exact matching place on the new drive?
|
| I've got a friend's system here with a dead HD. But I'd like to try to
| at least save the recovery partition and see if the recovery partition
| on the new drive will restore that drive.
|
| It's possible the recovery partition can't be saved/rescued, just want
| to try.
|

You can copy partitions using any decent
partitioning program. This discussion has come
up before. I use BootIt and have no trouble
doing something like moving the partitions to
a new hard disk. I just plug in the new disk,
run BootIt from a CD, then copy as needed.
I did exactly what you're asking recently. I
think it was an HP or a Dell. I first reinstalled
the factory image, then made a disk image
backup, then copied both C drive and the restore
partition to a new hard disk. Then switched
out the hard disks. That really should be done
for any computer over about 5 years old. It's
not worth waiting for the hard disk to die.

Not quite what I need to do, unfortunately. The hard disk has already
died for all intents and purposes. I can't even do a factory recovery.
But I'm not sure that part of the drive is defective. I'm hoping I
can copy the recovery partition only, put it back in the same spot on a
new drive, then run the recovery and that will rebuild everything.

I still need to ask them if they made the recovery disks when they bough
the computer, but I doubt they did.

Right now, just looking at possible options, since no decision will be
made until after the holidays.



There are a few caveats:

* You need a capable program, not just a disk
cloner or backup program.

* You'll need to be sure you've got the right
partition set active when you boot the new
disk.

I suspect if you can't access the recovery partition in the machine as
it is now, taking it out and trying it in some enclosure likely won't
help any. If it don't power up enough to even be seen by the BIOS then
.... you've been around long enough to know

On 12/22/15 12:10 PM, pjp wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 12/22/15 9:14 AM, Mayayana wrote:
| Is it possible to just clone a single partition to another drive and
| have it end up in the exact matching place on the new drive?
|
| I've got a friend's system here with a dead HD. But I'd like to try to
| at least save the recovery partition and see if the recovery partition
| on the new drive will restore that drive.
|
| It's possible the recovery partition can't be saved/rescued, just want
| to try.
|

You can copy partitions using any decent
partitioning program. This discussion has come
up before. I use BootIt and have no trouble
doing something like moving the partitions to
a new hard disk. I just plug in the new disk,
run BootIt from a CD, then copy as needed.
I did exactly what you're asking recently. I
think it was an HP or a Dell. I first reinstalled
the factory image, then made a disk image
backup, then copied both C drive and the restore
partition to a new hard disk. Then switched
out the hard disks. That really should be done
for any computer over about 5 years old. It's
not worth waiting for the hard disk to die.

Not quite what I need to do, unfortunately. The hard disk has already
died for all intents and purposes. I can't even do a factory recovery.
But I'm not sure that part of the drive is defective. I'm hoping I
can copy the recovery partition only, put it back in the same spot on a
new drive, then run the recovery and that will rebuild everything.

I still need to ask them if they made the recovery disks when they bough
the computer, but I doubt they did.

Right now, just looking at possible options, since no decision will be
made until after the holidays.



There are a few caveats:

* You need a capable program, not just a disk
cloner or backup program.

* You'll need to be sure you've got the right
partition set active when you boot the new
disk.

I suspect if you can't access the recovery partition in the machine as
it is now, taking it out and trying it in some enclosure likely won't
help any. If it don't power up enough to even be seen by the BIOS then
... you've been around long enough to know

I'm not expecting it to work, but everything goes far enough that it's
worth a try to me. Normal boot up go as far as the Microsoft "flag" and
Starting Windows to appear, similar for Safe Mode. Booting into
recovery mode goes as far as the Loading Windows progress bar to get
about 2/3rds of the way across the screen.


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 42.0
Thunderbird 38.0.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

Ken Springer wrote:
On 12/22/15 12:10 PM, pjp wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 12/22/15 9:14 AM, Mayayana wrote:
| Is it possible to just clone a single partition to another drive and
| have it end up in the exact matching place on the new drive?
|
| I've got a friend's system here with a dead HD. But I'd like to
try to
| at least save the recovery partition and see if the recovery
partition
| on the new drive will restore that drive.
|
| It's possible the recovery partition can't be saved/rescued, just
want
| to try.
|

You can copy partitions using any decent
partitioning program. This discussion has come
up before. I use BootIt and have no trouble
doing something like moving the partitions to
a new hard disk. I just plug in the new disk,
run BootIt from a CD, then copy as needed.
I did exactly what you're asking recently. I
think it was an HP or a Dell. I first reinstalled
the factory image, then made a disk image
backup, then copied both C drive and the restore
partition to a new hard disk. Then switched
out the hard disks. That really should be done
for any computer over about 5 years old. It's
not worth waiting for the hard disk to die.

Not quite what I need to do, unfortunately. The hard disk has already
died for all intents and purposes. I can't even do a factory recovery.
But I'm not sure that part of the drive is defective. I'm hoping I
can copy the recovery partition only, put it back in the same spot on a
new drive, then run the recovery and that will rebuild everything.

I still need to ask them if they made the recovery disks when they bough
the computer, but I doubt they did.

Right now, just looking at possible options, since no decision will be
made until after the holidays.



There are a few caveats:

* You need a capable program, not just a disk
cloner or backup program.

* You'll need to be sure you've got the right
partition set active when you boot the new
disk.

I suspect if you can't access the recovery partition in the machine as
it is now, taking it out and trying it in some enclosure likely won't
help any. If it don't power up enough to even be seen by the BIOS then
... you've been around long enough to know

I'm not expecting it to work, but everything goes far enough that it's
worth a try to me. Normal boot up go as far as the Microsoft "flag" and
Starting Windows to appear, similar for Safe Mode. Booting into
recovery mode goes as far as the Loading Windows progress bar to get
about 2/3rds of the way across the screen.

A backup program with cloning capability, can clone the MBR
(partition table) and as many partitions as you select.

A "Partition Manager", can also copy partitions from one
disk to another. I used to do that with Partition Magic,
before Macrium came along.

*******

When Partition Magic copies a boot partition, it preserved
the partition number. If a Windows partition is the third
partition on the original drive, Partition Magic will make
it the third partition on the empty disk. And it doesn't have
to leave any space in front of it either.

+-----+-------------+---------------+
| MBR | /dev/sda3 | unallocated |
+-----+-------------+---------------+

Now, if you then use Disk Management to create new partitions,
the partition table entries are not in the same order as
the spacial position of the partitions. This is not a
technical issue - as the first partition was placed there
so the ARC in boot.ini would remain correct. The utilities
of that era, do not like to "meddle" with the contents of the
partitions, and that's why it went as /dev/sda3. (They could
have edited the ARC in boot.ini and made it /dev/sda1
if they wanted.)

+-----+-------------+---------------+---------------+---
| MBR | /dev/sda3 | /dev/sda1 | /dev/sda2 | Unallocated
+-----+-------------+---------------+---------------+---

Modern utilities *do* adjust stuff. You may find that
Vista+ partitions have had the BCD corrected. As an example,
to prevent the cloned disk from ending up "offline", at
least one of the disk identifiers must be modified. If
they didn't do that, customers would complain like
crazy. So if you were wondering just how accurate
a clone is, well, not that accurate at all. The utilities
err on the side of convenience now, ensuring your stuff
works, rather than keeping a forensic investigator happy.

If you need true forensic copies, use dd.exe or
use the ddrescue (bad disk copier) programs. The second
one is a best effort copier, that will try repeatedly
to get a good read out of each sector. With some
luck, you may find ddrescue in the Cygwin collection.
The disk dump (dd) family, does not do partition
resizing and other stuff you might have come to
expect from your backup/cloning programs. The destination
disk would need to be the same size or larger than the
source disk, for simple-minded "dd" runs. But the
copy made, is exact.

Paul

| I'm not expecting it to work, but everything goes far enough that it's
| worth a try to me. Normal boot up go as far as the Microsoft "flag" and
| Starting Windows to appear, similar for Safe Mode. Booting into
| recovery mode goes as far as the Loading Windows progress bar to get
| about 2/3rds of the way across the screen.
|

Are you sure it's the disk? It could be. On the
other hand, I've seen faulty restore in the past.
If you had faulty restore and just happened to
get Windows corrupt then it might seem like
the disk was bad.

(I have a Dell laptop with Vista that wouldn't
restore. I've forgotten the exact details. Some
EXE was supposed to kick off some other EXE
and wasn't. I had to rig it to kick off EXE #2
and then the restore worked.)

In any case, if you just get some kind of decent
partition manager software on a bootable CD you
can try copying the restore partition, and you
may be able to run a disk analyzer from something
like UBCD. There are various versions of boot disk
ISOs that can provide usable software on a bootable
Windows or Linux OS. They can be handy, though
they also tend to be loaded with a lot of half-useful
freebies and OSS. Or maybe someone else here
knows of a bootable program, like memtest for RAM,
that can analyze disks.

In message , Mayayana
writes:

[Ken Springer asked, BUT MAYAYANA DELETED THAT FACT AS ALWAYS:]

| Is it possible to just clone a single partition to another drive and
| have it end up in the exact matching place on the new drive?
|
| I've got a friend's system here with a dead HD. But I'd like to try to
| at least save the recovery partition and see if the recovery partition
| on the new drive will restore that drive.
|
| It's possible the recovery partition can't be saved/rescued, just want
| to try.
|

You can copy partitions using any decent
partitioning program. This discussion has come
up before. I use BootIt and have no trouble
[]
Although subsequent text _may_ have answered the question, and others'
responses (especially Paul's of course) almost certainly have, the first
sentence above does not answer the question asked, which was is it
possible to copy a partition _to the same place_ as it was.

(Like one of the other respondents, I am wondering if it actually is a
disc fault, rather than just the corruption of an important file, going
from the description given of what happens. Not that backing up
shouldn't be done of course!)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"That was a great speech. Every thinking American will vote for you."
"That's not enough. I need a majority." - Mo Udall

| A few years ago, I tried to restore the second partition in an image
| file ( C:,D with Acronis. It overwrote C:
| So now I image the whole disk.
|

If you only image OSs/partitions then you
have a lot more flexibility. On a multi-partition
disk there's no reason to be stuck linking all
partitions together in a disk clone.
When you need to restore D you can then
restore only D, from a D disk image. I've never
used Acronis, but any decent imaging-
partitioning software should be able to handle
that.

Ken1943 wrote:


A few years ago, I tried to restore the second partition in an image
file ( C:,D with Acronis. It overwrote C:
So now I image the whole disk.

Maybe I did something wrong or that is the way it works.

Slot numbers on an MBR disk, are only important
if a boot OS references partitions using the slot
number. (Linux currently doesn't do that, and Linux
doesn't even need nor reference the boot flag on an
MBR disk. Windows still uses the boot flag, but
has other identifiers in the BCD file for determining
what is going on.)

On WinXP for example, the boot.ini has a line that
specifies the OS partition. That is called an ARC path.
If you backed up from the third partition in the partition
table, on a restore, it will try to restore to the
same slot number. It doesn't have to be at the same
spatial offset, unless it is Win98 FAT or something.

If the backup tool has the capability to edit boot.ini
or edit BCD and fix stuff, then there should be more
flexibility in these things. I've seen some messages
in Macrium, where it appears to be modifying the BCD
so there won't be surprises. The BCD doesn't work
the same way as boot.ini, and there is no ARC in
the BCD. But there are still identifiers, and they
have to be clean to work properly (not get you tangled
up with something on the source disk).

Macrium *warns* you on partition overwrite. Are you
saying Acronis did this with absolutely no prompt
at all ? That would be a horrible interface, if so.

Paul

On 12/22/15 10:43 AM, Mayayana wrote:
|
| Not quite what I need to do, unfortunately. The hard disk has already
| died for all intents and purposes. I can't even do a factory recovery.
| But I'm not sure that part of the drive is defective.

It's still the same thing. If the recovery partition
is not corrupt then a partition program may be
able to copy it. If the disk is really dead -- not
spinning -- then you could only send it out to be
rebuilt, at best.

Took a holiday week off. :-)

Running the latest version of HD Tune at the moment, and so far the
tests are all good for the area of the drive where the Recovery
partition is. So "Confidence is High" I'll be able to get the recovery
partition on a new drive and do a factory restore, once the requisite
software and knowledge is in my possession.

I was just giving an example of what I'd done.
You shouldn't need to do the restore on the old disk.
But you probably do want to replicate the layout
of partitions on the new disk. You should be able
to just create an empty primary partition as a
stand-in for C drive. The restore software would
then overwrite the dummy C drive with the restore.
(I don't know if I've ever actually done that, but
I can't think of any reason it wouldn't work.)

That's the plan.

Another thing you might try would be to copy
the restore partition -- or a Windows install --
from another, similar computer. I've never needed
to do that, but my impression is that Dell, for
example, uses the same BIOS-embedded activation
on all of their PCs. So a Dell version of Windows
may work on another Dell PC. (Not including
the hardware issues.)

When the drive was in the computer, and I tried to do a factory restore,
the system hung. This morning, I put the drive in the dock, booted my
computer. Darned if it didn't boot straight into the HP recovery
system, easy as pie.

A separate issue would be if the computer had a
separate boot partition that's now dead. That
should also be a surmountable problem, but a
further complication.




--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 42.0
Thunderbird 38.0.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On 12/23/15 8:26 AM, Mayayana wrote:
| I'm not expecting it to work, but everything goes far enough that it's
| worth a try to me. Normal boot up go as far as the Microsoft "flag" and
| Starting Windows to appear, similar for Safe Mode. Booting into
| recovery mode goes as far as the Loading Windows progress bar to get
| about 2/3rds of the way across the screen.
|

Are you sure it's the disk? It could be. On the
other hand, I've seen faulty restore in the past.
If you had faulty restore and just happened to
get Windows corrupt then it might seem like
the disk was bad.

Definitely the drive and not a faulty restore. HD Tune 5.xx has a lot
of red squares indicating damage of some type.

I was able to get some of the data off using Linux. I don't know of a
program in the Windows world that would have let me do that. But the
filesystem is definitely scrambled for one reason or another. Due to
the damaged areas, I suspect.

(I have a Dell laptop with Vista that wouldn't
restore. I've forgotten the exact details. Some
EXE was supposed to kick off some other EXE
and wasn't. I had to rig it to kick off EXE #2
and then the restore worked.)

I bought a Dell restore disk on eBay one time. Wouldn't boot. I don't
remember the details, but a file was missing from the disk. Extracted
the files from the disk, added the missing file, and made a new disk.
Worked fine.

In any case, if you just get some kind of decent
partition manager software on a bootable CD you
can try copying the restore partition, and you
may be able to run a disk analyzer from something
like UBCD. There are various versions of boot disk
ISOs that can provide usable software on a bootable
Windows or Linux OS. They can be handy, though
they also tend to be loaded with a lot of half-useful
freebies and OSS. Or maybe someone else here
knows of a bootable program, like memtest for RAM,
that can analyze disks.

The system is going to sit until the owners decide how they want to
proceed. It could be just getting the data I could will be as far as
they want to go.


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 42.0
Thunderbird 38.0.1
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

| The system is going to sit until the owners decide how they want to
| proceed. It could be just getting the data I could will be as far as
| they want to go.

Did you ever try just copying the restore partition
to a new disk? You didn't mention that, though you
did say that that section seems to be intact. It
may be corrupt, but worth a try if they want to
save the machine. I don't think you ever mentioned
the age of the computer. Most can last a lot longer
if the system is backed up, so that the disk can be
replaced.

Ken Springer wrote:


Definitely the drive and not a faulty restore. HD Tune 5.xx has a lot
of red squares indicating damage of some type.


Some day, you'll get to play with this.

ddrescue

http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/Damaged_Hard_Disk

Paul