Positioning the Windows Explorer windows

On Mon, 05 Mar 2018 17:44:11 -0600, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Mar 2018 12:10:23 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

What about the idea
of improving the documentation?



An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
think it highly unlikely that it will.

What about the idea of a video, or a series of short videos, that offers
to launch when the computer is new and can be accessed on demand later?
Instead of text-based Help, it would be video-based and possibly
interactive. For all I know, Cortana can already do that now.

Call it Welcome! or New Feature Tour or Get To Know Windows.

Printed documentation is expensive in multiple ways and large text files
will be too daunting for many users to delve into, but these days with
Youtube on every device almost everyone knows how to watch a video.

Possible topics:
Launch a program, resize its window, move the window to another part of
the screen, cut/paste some text, copy/paste other text, add/delete text,
close the program. Bonus topic: open two programs at once to show that
it's possible.

Launch Windows Explorer (we're in the Win 7 group) or File Explorer.
Demonstrate how to navigate, illustrate the differences between a folder
and a file, how to search, rename, delete, and use the Recycle Bin.

Advanced topics - installing more programs, basic (very basic)
networking, Internet access, how and where to download something, what
is email, etc. Data backups - who should do it and who needn't bother.

There could be a TOC or Index that loads in a browser, then you'd pick
the topic you want to see from there. People can't be bothered to read
these days, but they'll usually pause to watch a video if it's short
enough. Add a very small dose of humor or Easter Eggs to generate
discussion and participation. Too much will kill the experience.

That's just off the top of my head, so the whole idea is probably full
of holes.



I think it's an excellent idea. *If* it's done well (and that's a big
"if") it could be very useful, and it's much more likely to be watched
than printed documentation is to be read. And it could cost Microsoft
next to nothing to provide it to customers.

On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 02:05:25 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Char Jackson
writes:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2018 12:10:23 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

What about the idea
of improving the documentation?



An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
think it highly unlikely that it will.

What about the idea of a video, or a series of short videos, that offers
to launch when the computer is new and can be accessed on demand later?
Instead of text-based Help, it would be video-based and possibly
interactive. For all I know, Cortana can already do that now.

Call it Welcome! or New Feature Tour or Get To Know Windows.

Printed documentation is expensive in multiple ways and large text files
will be too daunting for many users to delve into, but these days with
Youtube on every device almost everyone knows how to watch a video.

Possible topics:
Launch a program, resize its window, move the window to another part of
the screen, cut/paste some text, copy/paste other text, add/delete text,

Those are really excellent ideas. (There probably _are_ such videos on
YouTube [everything else is there!]; it's just a matter of finding and
collating them.)


close the program. Bonus topic: open two programs at once to show that
it's possible.

And show switching between them (and possibly cutting and pasting
ditto), otherwise the _reason_ for doing so isn't obvious.


Launch Windows Explorer (we're in the Win 7 group) or File Explorer.
Demonstrate how to navigate, illustrate the differences between a folder
and a file, how to search, rename, delete, and use the Recycle Bin.
(How _would_ you demonstrate the differences between a folder and a
file?)

Advanced topics - installing more programs, basic (very basic)
networking, Internet access, how and where to download something, what
is email, etc. Data backups - who should do it and who needn't bother.
Who needn't bother?

There could be a TOC or Index that loads in a browser, then you'd pick
the topic you want to see from there. People can't be bothered to read
these days, but they'll usually pause to watch a video if it's short
enough. Add a very small dose of humor or Easter Eggs to generate
discussion and participation. Too much will kill the experience.

That's just off the top of my head, so the whole idea is probably full
of holes.

No, excellent idea IMO. Would even, IMO, be worth selling as a CD/DVD.
(If you made it right, it could play on both a PC and a home DVD player,
each with slightly different menus.)


Better than selling it as a DVD would be to provide it at no
additional charge with all new computers: a single sheet of paper with
nothing but the instruction "Go to this web site before using this
computer: http:..." in large letters. Or instead of a sheet of paper,
perhaps a sticker on the case that can be removed and thrown away
after you've gone to the site--similar to the "Call this number"
sticker that comes on credit cards.

Another choice is having the initial Windows setup program take you to
that site automatically.

J. P. ,

Though _ideally_ I'd like to get away from the idea of size altogether -
but there's nothing in the real world that does.

Yes, that was something going thru my mind too. Thats why I suggested
cardboard boxes, as they are quite common, already come in all kinds of
sizes, and are regarded as "just boxes" (read: fully interchangable, even
size wise).

Also, the "plain" was intentional (even if you're not using physical boxes):
when you cannot distinguish the "parent" box from the current one or from a
"child" box (other than by size perhaps) than they tend to blend together in
a persons mind as a single thing, just present multiple times.


But if you want to circumvent the size problem altogether*, why not leave
the real world and enter a magical one ? One where a "bottomless" pouch
exists in which you can put gems (the files) and other pouches (the
folders) - which themselves are ofcourse bottomles too. Will probably go
down well with *at least* the harry potter crowd. :-) (might kick some
(deeply) religious ones against the shins though, so be carefull where you
use it).

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

In message , R.Wieser
writes:
J. P. ,

Though _ideally_ I'd like to get away from the idea of size altogether -
but there's nothing in the real world that does.

Yes, that was something going thru my mind too. Thats why I suggested
cardboard boxes, as they are quite common, already come in all kinds of
sizes, and are regarded as "just boxes" (read: fully interchangable, even
size wise).

Also, the "plain" was intentional (even if you're not using physical boxes):
when you cannot distinguish the "parent" box from the current one or from a
"child" box (other than by size perhaps) than they tend to blend together in
a persons mind as a single thing, just present multiple times.


But if you want to circumvent the size problem altogether*, why not leave
the real world and enter a magical one ? One where a "bottomless" pouch
exists in which you can put gems (the files) and other pouches (the
folders) - which themselves are ofcourse bottomles too. Will probably go
down well with *at least* the harry potter crowd. :-) (might kick some
(deeply) religious ones against the shins though, so be carefull where you
use it).

More good thoughts! And pouches within pouches is just as graspable.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser


Did the * after "altogether" link to something you forgot to add (-:?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I
have one. -Cato the Elder, statesman, soldier, and writer (234-149 BCE)

J.P. ,

Did the * after "altogether" link to something you forgot to add (-:?

More likely it got removed when I rewrote that sentence ... but forgot to
also remove the marker. :-(

Ah, now I remember. It was about needing to be carefull about your "no size
constraints" request, as most of the this-world storage media are in fact
really quite limited. :-p The cardboard boxes and a transport truck
analogy popped into my mind.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

On 3/5/18 12:10 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 3/2/18 9:31 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 12:08:33 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

You have pretty much mirrored my frustration with the lack of any
documentation being included with computers. It's no wonder people have
so little clue as to how to use a computer.


Although I somewhat share your frustration, at least in part, let me
make several comments disagreeing with you:

1. It costs considerably more to print documentation that it does to
create a Windows DVD. So the lack of documentation keeps the cost
down.

I see. So... It's all about the money, and nothing about the
investment in education for the future.


Yes. Whether that's good or bad is not my point. If a manufacturer can
keep the cost down and sell more of the product, he makes more money.
And my point is simply that that's why he does it.

Does he??? How much does he suffer in having a reputation that
diminishes sales? Maybe these folks believe in the "Ebeneezer Scrooge
School of Economics". :-)

People who feel like they have not been fairly treated usually go
somewhere else, unless things force them to stay where they are.



2. The lack of documentation *may* (see below) be an issue for some
people, but not for most of us with Windows experience. So as far as
I'm concerned, keeping the cost down by not having documentation is
good, not bad.

So, are you saying it's all about experienced users? Is the new user
supposed to go suck wind?


No, that's not my point at all. I was simply explaining why the
manufacturer's keeping the cost down is good for me and for other
experienced users. That's why I said "as far as I'm concerned."

And for less experienced users, see point 4.


This is one of the reasons most people I meet hate Windows 10. They
have no help using the new UI, and didn't have any help using previous
UIs either. Not all at much different than when MS introduced 8.x. I
maintain that, had they provided documentation about the new Start
Screen and how to use it, it would not have been the abject failure it
turned out to be.


I agree, at least in part, and even more for 8.x than for 10. A
printed manual wasn't necessary, but a small pamphlet explaining the
basics of how to use it should have been included.

I think I said this somewhere, but I think the W10 Start Menu is the
best one they've had. But, I don't think too many know how to configure
and use it.

But as far as I'm concerned, the main thing they should have done was
made that new UI optional. There should have been a choice between it
and the Windows 7 UI. Let those who know the Windows 7 UI stick with
it. Let those who like the new UI, or those who are adventurous and
want to learn it move to it.

Agreed. Especially 8.x. IMO, both 8.x and 10 are limited due to small
laptop screens.



3. Most people never look at whatever documentation they get with
their computers, cars, TV sets, or anything else. They put it away
somewhere, and usually can't remember where. Or maybe they throw it
away. They don't even look at it when it's a one or two page flyer
that came with the computer.

"You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink." Is that what
your saying? What if you take a herd of horses to water, and only a few
take a drink? What you are saying is, "Lets punish the horses that will
take a drink by not taking any of the horses to water."


No, I'm not saying like that at all. I don't want to punish anyone for
anything. I'm simply explaining why providing documentation isn't much
help to the great majority of users.

When the user has a choice of using documentation or not to use the
documentation, and they opt for the latter, that is their fault. But if
there is no or incomplete documentation, the manufacturer has removed
choice from the user.

Just a couple hours ago, I set up my new printer. Documentation? Say
What?!?!?! In trying to figure it out, I managed to get it discoed from
the network, and had to reset it. Not a thing about how to do that.
Fortunately, I knew how to find the info on the web. But, how many
thousands of new users, or even users that have had their computers for
awhile, and still don't know how to do that?

Before Christmas, I had to help a woman try to find a file on her
computer. I estimate the system was about 5 years old. She had never
discovered that you could save a file. Absolutely no clue.


You do know the old joke about the word "assume", do you not? It makes
an "Ass" of "U" and "Me".


An old joke that I hate. Assumptions are necessary for everything we
do in life. If I walk across the street on a green light, I assume the
car coming doesn't the street won't run the red light.

That would be one of your bad assumptions you mention below. I don't
even trust drivers to turn a corner when the turn signal is on.

There are good assumptions and bad ones. Avoiding them all is
impossible.

But you can avoid most of them.


You just assumed that *all* users know how to do this.


Of course I didn't. But if you buy a product that's new to you and
don't take the trouble to find out to properly use it, you run the
risk of screwing things up--sometimes of killing yourself, for example
with a power saw.

But if you buy a product like a power saw, that documentation on proper
use will be there. The manufacturer has a legal liability if it isn't
provided. But MS has no such liability.


4. In my experience, back in the days when documentation used to be
much more common with computers and software packages, it was
typically somewhere between mediocre and very poor. If you wanted good
documentation, you bought a third-party book.

I see... So, because it was between mediocre and poor, that's a good
justification for not providing any documentation?


I am *not* trying to justify that, or anything else. I am trying to
explain why things are as they are, at least in part.

And, so far, it seems as if the answer is how cheap can we make it, not
how good can we make it. :-)



What about the idea
of improving the documentation?



An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
think it highly unlikely that it will.

Down a few messages there's a discussion on that. I'm late getting
replies out to a lot of messages.


5. Those third-party books are still available. And since they are
almost always better than what used to come with the computer or
software, and probably cost less than the addition to the price that
would exist if they were included with it, that's what people should
get.

So, where do you go to see a book and make a judgement on the contents?
Borders is gone. I think Dalton's is too.


There are many reviews available on the Internet. I've written a few
of them myself.

I know. But here again, you are (sorry for this) assuming they know how
to do this. And the people who need this the most are the least likely
to know how. Refer to my reference above about the lady that didn't
know how to save a file.

Someone new to all of this also won't know how to tell or recognize if
the info is wrong. Torques my jaws when web pages don't post the date
the info was written.



6. Very few people buy those third-party books. They don't because
they don't want to take the time and trouble to read them any more
than they used to when they were included with the software packages.
Or in some cases because they can't afford them.

Yea, more "lets penalize everyone" because most do not take advantage of
the opportunity.


You keep interpreting everything I say as "let's" do this or that.
Once again, I was not suggesting that anyone do anything. I was trying
to explain why things are as they are.

And I keep asking, why do they have to be this way, other than to be cheap.



I was lucky, I didn't start out with Windows. My first windowing
computer was an Atari 1040ST. That manual DID tell you how to drag and
drop, and everything else. So when I was exposed to Windows, those
things I already knew how to do.


I didn't start out with Windows either. I started out with mainframe
computers (in 1962). When I started with PCs (in 1987), it was with on
an IBM clone running DOS (3.0). I started with Windows a few years
later (Windows 2.0, running under DOS), but didn't use it much. It was
just a way to learn something new (and something that I correctly
anticipated would take over) and get familiar with it.

Did you have documentation with that mainframe to refer to when needed?


Yes. Everybody did. Mainframes are completely different from personal
computers. Besides being more more complex, they are much more
expensive, so the manufacturers have no trouble with the costs of
printing.

And also note that a programmers working on a mainframe has been
educated in its use. He is very different from a home user.

To me, that's an even more important reason for the documentation.
Education of the users. Just like the programmer... If he didn't want
to study, even though he has the books, will he be successful?



Presuming you went to college to get an education about computers, did
you have books there?


I did not. I graduated from college (1959) well before colleges had
computer classes.

When I was in high school, they had a class called "Data Processing".
Guess I was too lazy or disinterested, but I never inquired as to what
that meant. Now that I think I know what it meant, I sometimes muse how
my life might have been different if I had taken the course.




I've run almost every version of Windows from 3.0 to 10 since then. I
learned it from my early experience with 2.0, from reading books
about it, from my son, who started with PCs before I did, from other
friends with more Windows experience that I had, from attending
meetings of the local PC Users Group, from my own trial, error, and
research, and from newsgroups.

I know, and you *are* very knowledgeable, which is why I read your posts.


Thank you. I appreciate that.

My point is that I made an effort to learn what I know. The person who
is not willing to make an effort is not going to know very much,
regardless of what documentation comes with his computer, TV set, car,
or anything else.

And we all do that. Which is why I "absconded" with a phrase a friend
told me a couple months ago: "Ignorance is a choice." Always has been,
always will be.



I now use the system that fits my needs for whatever. But overall, I
use the Mac. It just chugs along with almost no system updates, whereas
there are security updates left and right for my windows computers that
are still supported.



I've never used and know next to nothing about the Macintosh. I have
no interest in it. It may be great, it may even be better than
Windows; I don't know and don't care, and I'll stick with what I
know. I have neither the inclination nor the time to learn something
new (and I feel the same way about Linux).

Macs excel in some areas, Windows in some areas, and Linux in some
areas. At least in my opinion.


I won't use W10 either, not because I think it's crappy, or similar. I
actually think it's pretty good. I think the new Start Menu is a huge
improvement over the past, but if you don't know how to use it, it's
just as worthless as the predecessors. But again, constant updating,


Yes, and I agree with you that that's bad, not good. If it were
written better, it would need much less updating.

In some of the threads, even another one I started, it's mentioned about
how hard it is to find anything about how Windows works. I have to
wonder how much moola MS would save by just pausing and cleaning up the
mess.

Microsoft does many things well and many other things poorly. The need
for so many upgrades falls into the latter category


they can't leave the UI alone,


I agree again. Another thing they do poorly. It's OK to make some
changes, if they are clearly improvements, not just different things.
And changes should be made gradually, not dramatically all at once.
It's hard enough to learn one new thing; nobody should have to learn
many at the same time.

Some times it does feel like "change for change's sake". I think Apple
is the same way.

And both are removing visual hints, clues, and user available changes
that make it easier to use the computer for many users. I have to say,
the "Accessibility" option on a Mac is absolutely horrible. And Windows
is approaching that.


and most of all, those things many call
"spying". When you buy a system off the shelf, you should be allowed to
opt in for those features. And when presented with them, there needs to
be a truly adequate explanation. And, there isn't.


Another agreement from me. And not just as regards "spying"; there are
many places where they should provide choices and don't. Or if the
choice is there, it's buried so deeply that it's hard to find.

I use Spybot Anti-Beacon and turn off most of it. I don't mind sending
telemetry that reports a problem with the system, but my contacts list?
Do you think there's any user out their that checked with the user's
contacts to see if the contacts wanted their info in the hands of MS or
Apple? I suspect not.


A friend of mine recently made a very cogent comment... "Ignorance is a
choice." After he said that, I lost all sympathy for people having
computer issues. They can go out and find the answers, or live with the
problem.


Ignorance is only partly a choice. Many people don't know they can go
out and find the answers, or don't even know that they can do that.

Ignorance is *always* a choice. In your example, they choose NOT to
find out where they can get the answers.


No. They don't choose not to find out. They don't know they can, or
don't know how.

Everybody knows you can ask, but possibly they've been chided so often
for asking, they choose not to so they don't have to take the grief.

Almost no one I've talked to agrees with your perspective here.


And many people don't have the time to do it; it's usually a lot
quicker to ask a question and be told the answer than it is to search
for it, whether in books, on the web, or anywhere else.

This assumes you know where to ask the questions.


Yes. My point exactly. Read my previous point.



Everyone has the same number of hours in a day. It's how you choose to spend them.



No, we don't all have the same number of hours. Yes, there are 24
hours for all of us, but someone like me who is retired has many more
available hours than someone who is working.

We still have the same number of hours in a day. You may have 6 hours,
someone else has 2. It's up to that person to get what they can with
that 2 hours. If they did take those 2 hours to learn about ?????? and
become more efficient at ???????, they may end up having more than 2
hours since they may shave off the time they spend doing some other
activity during the day.



I have lots of sympathy for people with computer problems. That's why
I help many friend and relatives with their computer problems, and
it's also the reason I'm here in this newsgroup and others, and also
in the Microsoft Windows forums--to help when I can.

I have been severely disappointed in the MS forums.


As am I. I think they are terrible. I don't want to take the time to
go into details about why, but there are many thing about them that
are very badly done. Nevertheless, I participate because, bad as they
are, I am able to help a lot of people there.



Too many threads
get an answer from someone who is supposed to be knowledgeable via MS,
and when the poster says "It didn't work", that person never replies.


One of the many things that are bad about them is that they are not
like newsreaders, where you can see all the messages in a thread
including your own and any replies to it without clicking on any
message. And if you've replied to a message, when you later see
another message in the thread, you can't tell that it's one you've
replied to.

There are some forums that do offer a threaded view. Few and far
between, from what I can tell. Libre Office is one that does. In
addition, their forums are available via gmane.org and accessible via a
newsgroup reader.

When they first started with this, messages could be accessed either
via a browser on the web or via a newsreader. The web might be better
for people asking questions (most of whom probably don't even know
what a newsreader is), but as far as I'm concerned it's much worse for
those of us who are trying to help. Microsoft made a bad choice when
they opted only to satisfy those asking questions by turning off the
newsgroup mirror of the forums, and in the long run it hurts those
asking questions too.


Usually, but not always, I find the answer somewhere on the web. But
it's rarely an answer from MS.



If by an answer from MS, you mean on the forums, I *strongly* agree
with you. Those people are mostly contractors, not actual employees,
are mostly in India, writing in poor English, and they often
completely misunderstand the question. Even if they understand the
question, they often provide wrong answers. They are mostly terrible.

Sorry for the lack of clarity, I was referring to the MS forums.

But fortunately there are also a lot of helpful knowledgeable people
on the forums, including many MVPs. As far as I'm concerned, it would
be a major improvement if Microsoft would dump all those contractors,
and rely on those of us who are helpful. And it would save them money.

Which leaves us wondering, how much money would they save in support
areas like the forums if that had some kind of documentation... :-)


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On 3/6/18 8:22 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 02:05:25 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Char Jackson
writes:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2018 12:10:23 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

What about the idea
of improving the documentation?



An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
think it highly unlikely that it will.

What about the idea of a video, or a series of short videos, that offers
to launch when the computer is new and can be accessed on demand later?
Instead of text-based Help, it would be video-based and possibly
interactive. For all I know, Cortana can already do that now.

Call it Welcome! or New Feature Tour or Get To Know Windows.

Printed documentation is expensive in multiple ways and large text files
will be too daunting for many users to delve into, but these days with
Youtube on every device almost everyone knows how to watch a video.

Possible topics:
Launch a program, resize its window, move the window to another part of
the screen, cut/paste some text, copy/paste other text, add/delete text,

Those are really excellent ideas. (There probably _are_ such videos on
YouTube [everything else is there!]; it's just a matter of finding and
collating them.)


close the program. Bonus topic: open two programs at once to show that
it's possible.

And show switching between them (and possibly cutting and pasting
ditto), otherwise the _reason_ for doing so isn't obvious.


Launch Windows Explorer (we're in the Win 7 group) or File Explorer.
Demonstrate how to navigate, illustrate the differences between a folder
and a file, how to search, rename, delete, and use the Recycle Bin.
(How _would_ you demonstrate the differences between a folder and a
file?)

Advanced topics - installing more programs, basic (very basic)
networking, Internet access, how and where to download something, what
is email, etc. Data backups - who should do it and who needn't bother.
Who needn't bother?

There could be a TOC or Index that loads in a browser, then you'd pick
the topic you want to see from there. People can't be bothered to read
these days, but they'll usually pause to watch a video if it's short
enough. Add a very small dose of humor or Easter Eggs to generate
discussion and participation. Too much will kill the experience.

That's just off the top of my head, so the whole idea is probably full
of holes.

No, excellent idea IMO. Would even, IMO, be worth selling as a CD/DVD.
(If you made it right, it could play on both a PC and a home DVD player,
each with slightly different menus.)


Better than selling it as a DVD would be to provide it at no
additional charge with all new computers: a single sheet of paper with
nothing but the instruction "Go to this web site before using this
computer: http:..." in large letters. Or instead of a sheet of paper,
perhaps a sticker on the case that can be removed and thrown away
after you've gone to the site--similar to the "Call this number"
sticker that comes on credit cards.

Another choice is having the initial Windows setup program take you to
that site automatically.

And both ideas work only if the new user knows what to do once past
reading the sheet of paper, or going to the website.

One thing I've noticed about techy/geeky types, they take if for granted
the reader understands what was just presented. They have forgotten how
to think like a true new user.


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On 3/6/18 1:54 AM, R.Wieser wrote:
J. P.

My problem - I think! - is conveying the concept of files and folders
within folders, especially the concept that *each level is the same*.

Would equating folders to plain cardboard boxes be something ? Those come
in all sizes and can be put inside each other, and binders* can be put
inside as well as next to them (folders containing files as well as other
folders).

*binders equating files, as they can contain any number of sheets - which
equate to sectors.

GMTA!!! I do a little tutoring on learning the basics of the computer,
and am putting together a "visual aid" for just this. But I'll just use
loose, stapled docs as files rather than having to deal with the bulk of
binders.


Regards,
Rudy Wieser



"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...
In message , Ken Springer
writes:
Sorry for the late replies to everyone. I use Albasani.net, and they've
been down for like 3 days.

Had withdrawal symptoms! LOL

I would too (-:

On 3/2/18 5:34 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Ken Springer
writes:
[]
Explaining things like this can be hard when the user is fixated on
doing a, b, c, d and has no interest in learning something else. The
Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders. He's more than once asked
me to go through downloading from his camera card - and he writes down
each stage/step. He just doesn't grasp the _concept_.

Exactly, grasping the concept is hard, and, IMO, none of the MS file
managers windows adequately as they don't display the very top level
correctly. That's why I created my own charts to show the very basic
hierarchy of the filesystem. I've done one for both Windows and Mac, and
would like to do one for Linux someday.

You can see the charts he
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1lrrman43ubk5m6/AAA-p4e6O7vkDo5akEaOcINFa?dl=0

For any reader that looks at the charts, feel free to download for your
own personal use. The goal was to make it as simple and self explanatory
as possible, and still be able to print on letter sized paper. I'd
appreciate comments and improvement suggestions if anyone has any.

Thanks. There are obviously lots of concepts we have difficulty in
conveying; your charts are (perhaps) good at conveying the top level,
which you say is what you were trying to convey.

My problem - I think! - is conveying the concept of files and folders
within folders, especially the concept that *each level is the same*.
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Look out for #1. Don't step in #2 either.




--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

"Ken Springer" wrote

| One thing I've noticed about techy/geeky types, they take if for granted
| the reader understands what was just presented. They have forgotten how
| to think like a true new user.
|

Oh, go on. All they have to do is to
leverage supported technologies across
the enterprise. The HTML help1 and HTML
help2 technologies have been architected
for end-user consumption using industry
standard XML technology in a solutionized,
cutting-edge, service implementation.

If that doesn't work then please contact
your OEM seller for further guidance. Microsoft
is not responsible for the Windows product
you purchased.

On 3/6/18 7:38 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"Ken Springer" wrote

| An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
| think it highly unlikely that it will.
|
| It's not that hard, *if* they are interested in doing it. But, I don't
| think they give a damn.
|
| Provide the new owner with a very easy to use means of feedback. And
| then, pay attention to it. How many times have we read in this and
| other newsgroups that MS doesn't care what the users think?
|
It should be noted that their customer is corporate.
That's not obvious, given that they sell so many licenses
in retail computers. And Bill Gates famously bragged to Warren
Buffett that he should invest in Microsoft because they
get a guaranteed "Windows tax" on nearly every PC sold.

(Buffett declined, saying he doesn't invest in things
he doesn't understand. But Berkshire Hathaway is
heavily invested in Apple, so maybe he was just being
diplomatic.

Back then, I suspect the Apple UI was much easier to pick up and learn
than it is now. I used to tell people that because of the UI, Macs were
easier to learn. I don't do that anymore.


The corporate world is very different. Microsoft have
them over a barrel and charge for seat licenses. They
also charge seat licenses for MS Office. Those two have
always been Microsoft's bread and butter. Everything
is catering to corporate. That's why software compatibility
is so much better than Macs. Corporate write their own
custom software and won't buy Windows if MS breaks
that software. It's also a big part of the reason that
Firefox floundered. It doesn't provide a good system
for allowing IT to control peoples' browsers. IE was
designed for that from the beginning.

Confused as to what you mean by "software compatibility".

I think that type of control is was Firefox doesn't want for the user.

Windows 10 is the first time MS have made a move to
milk the retail customer more, and even there Win10
"enterprise" version allows IT people to block updates.
They've forked Windows to some extent.
(Remember, the end of 9X was actually the end of
a SOHo version of Windows. Everyone had to switch
to a workstation OS.)

In the corporate world there will be training to use
the software. People won't really learn how to use
Windows. They'll learn how to do their job. (Actually,
most IT people don't even know Windows very well.
They just know how to run scripts to set up
workstations.)

That alone is a problem. I've got a friend who got a new position in
her company, and now is the "Queen" in the division because she knows
how to do thing in Windows other than just run software.

In some cases, she seems to know more than their IT people, and learned
long before the new job that IT didn't know squat about the software.

Another issue is that Microsoft actually don't want
people to be able to use their computer. That just
means more support costs. Nor do IT depts -- who
depend on ignorance for their income as well as for
system security -- want people to know what they're
doing.

I wonder if that played into the popularity of tablets.

Once one leaves the window of MS Word and starts
trying to manage the filesystem, install software, etc,
one enters a world where few venture. Much of what
one wants to do there is obfuscated and slathered
with unnecessary abstruseness. Before you know it
you're in the realm of secret Registry incantations.
Even the IT people can't keep up with those. That's
why they have Microsoft Management Console and
Group Policy Editor -- so that IT people can configure
systems without understanding the Registry, while
civilians can't do anything at all.

That's further into the system than I want to go. But you need to be
into the basics just to be efficient. The lady I mentioned earlier is a
case in point.

Many of the secret Registry tweaks are officially
documented, but not understandable or even
discoverable to most. The whole system is like that.
Try to block 3rd-party cookies in IE and you're faced
with an intimidating "Advanced" button to even find
the settings. That's if you even knew to look under
"Privacy" for those settings. That's already ruled out
99% of people from stopping the grossest level of
3rd-party tracking online. The adware/spyware business
model of Google and others online would collapse if
even half the public had the slightest idea of how
to set up their computer.

Then wander over to IE Security.... 5 categories of
settings... 50+ settings in each. Those are reflected
multiple times in the Registry, for a total thousands of
settings. And some of them you can't see or set
yourself. But what about the ones that you can set?
How many people know what it means to "Allow
webpages to use restricted protocols for active
content"? It's not in the help. The help reads like an
advertising flyer, or like the first 3 pages of your
toaster oven manual:

"Care for your wonderful Acme Toaster Oven by
wiping the shiny exterior periodically with Acme (R)
brand soft cloths."

Ken Blake made the point that MS can save money
by not distributing paper. But it's more complicated
than that. They save money on support costs by
keeping people in the dark. They also have corporate
buddies to think about. (Why else would 3rd-party cookies,
spyware by definition, be enabled by default while the
settings are hidden?)

So there's the public, most of whom don't want to
learn this stuff. There's corporate/IT, who don't want
people using their computers except for assigned
work. And there's Microsoft, who want to help corporate,
IT, and partners, while keeping support costs down.
Finally there's the tech ecosystem -- MS and their
partners -- who cooperate to milk the public. No one
in that group benefits from people controlling their
computers.

Sadly, you're right, no one wants to learn. That unwillingness overall,
is not good for the fut
Apropos of that is the trend toward kiddifying
obfuscation. Cute buttons, shopping icons, hidden
settings. Like Apple. If you make it seem simple and
lock it down then most people will think it's more fun
and more stable.... Hey, kids, let's go shopping!

(In the digital photo group there are
lots of Mac users always talking about "asset
management", which is a fancy term for, "I have
no idea where my files are. Is Picassa what I need?
Help!!" They work with Photoshop but need special
software just to tell them where their photos are.
A file system for the file system.)

Those cute icons are butt ugly, anymore.


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

"Ken Springer" wrote

| Everything
| is catering to corporate. That's why software compatibility
| is so much better than Macs. Corporate write their own
| custom software and won't buy Windows if MS breaks
| that software. It's also a big part of the reason that
| Firefox floundered. It doesn't provide a good system
| for allowing IT to control peoples' browsers. IE was
| designed for that from the beginning.
|
| Confused as to what you mean by "software compatibility".
|
I can write software that will run without special
treament or support libraries on Win98 to Win10.
corporate does things like building their own custom
database. Whether they do that in C++, VB, .Net,
whatever, they expect it to run on Windows. If
the next version breaks their software then they
won't buy it.
As a result, microsoft have bent over backward to
maintain backward compatibility. The API from Win95
is still there in Win10. Each update adds new functionality,
but it's never broken.

By contrast, Apple break things regularly. Only two versions
back (2-3 years) is expected to support new software.

Linux typically has a 6-16 month support cycle. Everything
is constantly updating. You get Acme Editor 2.332.123.435
and then it needs abc.lib 3.5432.76.12.1. 3.5432.12.0 just
won't cut it.

| I think that type of control is was Firefox doesn't want for the user.
|
Yes. They go out of their way to hide things and make
it confusing. I knew it was the beginning of the end when
they removed the option to block 3rd-party images (which
were all ads at that time) AND changed the pref setting
for it.

But what I was talking about was control by IT. IE
was made from the start to be used in corporate, not
controlled by the user but easily controlled by IT staff.

On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 15:04:37 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 3/6/18 8:22 AM, Ken Blake wrote:

Better than selling it as a DVD would be to provide it at no
additional charge with all new computers: a single sheet of paper with
nothing but the instruction "Go to this web site before using this
computer: http:..." in large letters. Or instead of a sheet of paper,
perhaps a sticker on the case that can be removed and thrown away
after you've gone to the site--similar to the "Call this number"
sticker that comes on credit cards.

Another choice is having the initial Windows setup program take you to
that site automatically.

And both ideas work only if the new user knows what to do once past
reading the sheet of paper, or going to the website.

One thing I've noticed about techy/geeky types, they take if for granted
the reader understands what was just presented. They have forgotten how
to think like a true new user.



I completely disagree with that. It ha nothing to do with taking
anything for granted. How well the reader understands depends on how
good the presentation is. Do a good job of it, and most readers will
understand; do a poor job and they won't.

This an area in which Microsoft has traditionally done a poor job. If
they were to do what Char suggested and do a much better job than they
have at such things in the past, it's a great idea. Do it the same
way as they mostly have in the past, and it's next to useless.

On 3/7/18 4:42 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 15:04:37 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 3/6/18 8:22 AM, Ken Blake wrote:

Better than selling it as a DVD would be to provide it at no
additional charge with all new computers: a single sheet of paper with
nothing but the instruction "Go to this web site before using this
computer: http:..." in large letters. Or instead of a sheet of paper,
perhaps a sticker on the case that can be removed and thrown away
after you've gone to the site--similar to the "Call this number"
sticker that comes on credit cards.

Another choice is having the initial Windows setup program take you to
that site automatically.

And both ideas work only if the new user knows what to do once past
reading the sheet of paper, or going to the website.

One thing I've noticed about techy/geeky types, they take if for granted
the reader understands what was just presented. They have forgotten how
to think like a true new user.



I completely disagree with that. It ha nothing to do with taking
anything for granted. How well the reader understands depends on how
good the presentation is. Do a good job of it, and most readers will
understand; do a poor job and they won't.

For a year and a half, I worked in a repair shop. Often the tech would
be trying to explain something to a customer, and the customer didn't
understand. The tech simply didn't know how to communicate with someone
that had little to know experiences with the terminology. That is why I
try to stay away from what I call "geek speak", and use terms and a
vocabulary that lets them relate the tech parts of computers to things
they know in their real life.

In fact, I had a conversation about this very thing with a tutoring
customer today.

This an area in which Microsoft has traditionally done a poor job. If
they were to do what Char suggested and do a much better job than they
have at such things in the past, it's a great idea. Do it the same
way as they mostly have in the past, and it's next to useless.

And yet, they never learn, do they...



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On 3/7/18 4:27 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Ken Springer" wrote

| Everything
| is catering to corporate. That's why software compatibility
| is so much better than Macs. Corporate write their own
| custom software and won't buy Windows if MS breaks
| that software. It's also a big part of the reason that
| Firefox floundered. It doesn't provide a good system
| for allowing IT to control peoples' browsers. IE was
| designed for that from the beginning.
|
| Confused as to what you mean by "software compatibility".
|
I can write software that will run without special
treament or support libraries on Win98 to Win10.
corporate does things like building their own custom
database. Whether they do that in C++, VB, .Net,
whatever, they expect it to run on Windows. If
the next version breaks their software then they
won't buy it.
As a result, microsoft have bent over backward to
maintain backward compatibility. The API from Win95
is still there in Win10. Each update adds new functionality,
but it's never broken.

I thought this is what you meant, but wanted to be sure.

By contrast, Apple break things regularly. Only two versions
back (2-3 years) is expected to support new software.

That is a problem, but Apple doesn't really go for the business user
from what I've read.

Linux typically has a 6-16 month support cycle. Everything
is constantly updating. You get Acme Editor 2.332.123.435
and then it needs abc.lib 3.5432.76.12.1. 3.5432.12.0 just
won't cut it.

Would/could this be due to the Linux community trying to play catchup?
Get done in 2 years what it took MS and Apple 20 years to do? (Numbers
just for explanation.)

| I think that type of control is was Firefox doesn't want for the user.
|
Yes. They go out of their way to hide things and make
it confusing. I knew it was the beginning of the end when
they removed the option to block 3rd-party images (which
were all ads at that time) AND changed the pref setting
for it.

I get tired of being told you have to go to about:config in order to
make so many changes. A long time ago there were discussions in the FF
newsgroup about making those settings easier for the average person to
change. Never happened.

But what I was talking about was control by IT. IE
was made from the start to be used in corporate, not
controlled by the user but easily controlled by IT staff.


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

"Ken Springer" wrote

| Linux typically has a 6-16 month support cycle. Everything
| is constantly updating. You get Acme Editor 2.332.123.435
| and then it needs abc.lib 3.5432.76.12.1. 3.5432.12.0 just
| won't cut it.
|
| Would/could this be due to the Linux community trying to play catchup?
| Get done in 2 years what it took MS and Apple 20 years to do? (Numbers
| just for explanation.)
|
Not in my experience. I've tried Linux off and on
since the late 90s. To me the best analogy is the
greasemonkey who's always working on his car,
which is always on the front lawn, never has a finish
coat of paint, and is rarely driven. The Linux crowd
do it as a hobby.

Many of the programs even reflect that. It's
fashionable to never get to v. 1. If I remember
correctly, WINE took 20 years to reach v. 1.0,
yet it's updated *every 10 days*. It's a beta
orgy, not a product.

| I get tired of being told you have to go to about:config in order to
| make so many changes. A long time ago there were discussions in the FF
| newsgroup about making those settings easier for the average person to
| change. Never happened.
|

No, and as you implied, it's getting worse. Less and
less settings in the GUI. More and more settings
added to about:config. There's still no comprehensive
list of what they all mean. Often when I look one up
the only info I can find is bug discussions among
Mozilla programmers. I finally wrote my own help
file so I wouldn't have to keep looking things up.
But then they add new stuff.

geo-enabled: Do you want to let them track your location?

dom.webnotifications.enabled: Do you want to let FF
regularly call home to pick up commercial spam for
you?

services.push.enabled: Would you like for
websites to be able to keep a hidden, open
page in FF at all times so that they can
send you messages at any time?

experiments.enabled: Would you like to allow
the willy nilly download of experimental
extensions as part of Mozilla's telemetry
spyware ....

Every version brings new complications,
intrusions and security risks. Though Mozilla is
not alone. Turning the Internet into interactive
TV and services is the trend. It's not about
webpages anymore. It's about software programs
running through a portal, which is the browser.