Surprise!

I was innocently doing some Google searching with the Srware Iron browser
and had just clicked on a Walmart site. While waiting for it to load I
looked away to do something else and when I looked back the computer was
booting!

I vaguely recall a similar reboot many many years ago but not again for
many years. Something to be concerned about or just a seldom-seen XP bug?

If it matters using Kaspersky virus protection.

XP Home with SP3

TIA

--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.

KenK wrote:
I was innocently doing some Google searching with the Srware Iron browser
and had just clicked on a Walmart site. While waiting for it to load I
looked away to do something else and when I looked back the computer was
booting!

I vaguely recall a similar reboot many many years ago but not again for
many years. Something to be concerned about or just a seldom-seen XP bug?

If it matters using Kaspersky virus protection.

XP Home with SP3

TIA


Does the Kaspersky have a log ?

Paul

Paul wrote in news
KenK wrote:
I was innocently doing some Google searching with the Srware Iron
browser and had just clicked on a Walmart site. While waiting for it
to load I looked away to do something else and when I looked back the
computer was booting!

I vaguely recall a similar reboot many many years ago but not again
for many years. Something to be concerned about or just a seldom-seen
XP bug?

If it matters using Kaspersky virus protection.

XP Home with SP3

TIA


Does the Kaspersky have a log ?

Yes, but the three threat logs are all empty. So evidently the boot was
not caused by a virus? I don't see any other applicable logs.


Paul




--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.

KenK wrote:
Paul wrote in news
KenK wrote:
I was innocently doing some Google searching with the Srware Iron
browser and had just clicked on a Walmart site. While waiting for it
to load I looked away to do something else and when I looked back the
computer was booting!

I vaguely recall a similar reboot many many years ago but not again
for many years. Something to be concerned about or just a seldom-seen
XP bug?

If it matters using Kaspersky virus protection.

XP Home with SP3

TIA

Does the Kaspersky have a log ?

Yes, but the three threat logs are all empty. So evidently the boot was
not caused by a virus? I don't see any other applicable logs.

Then you're off to Event Viewer for a look.

*******

Does the Walmart site allow third-party advertising ?
Like, with a Flash exploit in it ?

Paul

KenK wrote:

I was innocently doing some Google searching with the Srware Iron browser
and had just clicked on a Walmart site. While waiting for it to load I
looked away to do something else and when I looked back the computer was
booting!

I vaguely recall a similar reboot many many years ago but not again for
many years. Something to be concerned about or just a seldom-seen XP bug?

If it matters using Kaspersky virus protection.

XP Home with SP3

Sometimes you may not notice power glitches (outages). They are short
to you, maybe so short you won't see the lights flicker, especially if
it is daytime and you have no lights turned on, but the outage duration
is long enough that the capacitors in the power supply in the computer
cannot cover the flicker in power. 300 ms is too long for a PSU but
very short to you. Capacitors as well as everything else in a PSU will
age and not perform as well over time. Also, brownouts can cause the
PSU to shutdown and those can be momentary. Some UPSes will compensate
for brownouts (for awhile but not indefinitely) by supplanting battery
energy to what is obtained from the wall outlet. Some don't.

Do you have a UPS to which your computer is attached? If so, either it
is undersized or its battery is too old and needs to be replaced. If
not, you're exposed to those power flickers. Most, maybe all, UPSes
have software you install to control the power state of the computer and
communicate to the UPS. The point of a UPS is to prevent slamming down
the computer in a power outage but to shut it down gracefully. The UPS
software will keep the computer up but only for so long depending on the
remaining capacity and load on that is reported by the UPS. The
software will perform a shutdown when there is not enough remaining
run-time in the UPS. With an undersized UPS, its software client will
perform an almost immediate shutdown of Windows during a power outage.

Some software for UPSes will mention when they are correcting for a
power outage or brownout but not all do. If the remaining capacity for
the UPS is too low, there won't be any uptime left on the UPS so the
software has to perform an immediate graceful shutdown in an attempt to
preserve data integrity. A right-sized UPS is for data protection. An
oversized UPS is for convenience in keeping the gear up longer than
needed for data protection; i.e., for you to keep using the computer.
Alas, many users buy under-sized UPSes. Also, with age, the battery in
the UPS will have less capacity, so one that started oversized may
become undersized. I had a 2 kVA UPS that gave me 20 minutes of uptime
after a power outage (would've been longer with a smaller load). After
5 years, that was down to around 2 minutes. I replaced the batteries
(which constituted 60 pounds of the total 80 pounds of weight for the
UPS) and got back up to the full uptime.

While some UPSes have an alarm that sounds when the UPS is supplying
power (whether for a full outage or to supplement during a brownout),
not all do. Even for those with alarms, users may configure the UPS or
the software to not sound off during a power event. The alarm on mine
was very loud so I put some tape over the speaker to muffle it a bit.

If you have a UPS, and if its software has logging and logging was
enabled, check that log to take note of power events (outages,
brownouts, etc). See if one of those power events coincides with when
your computer did a shutdown.

VanguardLH wrote:
KenK wrote:

I was innocently doing some Google searching with the Srware Iron browser
and had just clicked on a Walmart site. While waiting for it to load I
looked away to do something else and when I looked back the computer was
booting!

I vaguely recall a similar reboot many many years ago but not again for
many years. Something to be concerned about or just a seldom-seen XP bug?

If it matters using Kaspersky virus protection.

XP Home with SP3

Sometimes you may not notice power glitches (outages). They are short
to you, maybe so short you won't see the lights flicker, especially if
it is daytime and you have no lights turned on

ATX supplies have "holding time". This is listed in the specs.
Just grabbing a PSU at random from Newegg...

"Seasonic SSR-1000TD PRIME 1000W"

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...9SIA3AR5N20521

"Hold-up Time (20 ms)"

That's 20 ms when supplying 1000W of DC output power.
You don't normally run them flat-out like that.

Normally, the PC is running at a fraction of full load,
and you can easily get 10x the holding time in idle
desktop situations. So the supply can last for 200ms.

Now, when is this important ?

Take the situation when you own *two* PCs. The first PC is
running. The second PC is plugged into the same power strip.
You flip the switch to ON, on the back of the second PC.
Instantly, the AC is flattened for two or three AC power
cycles. If it wasn't for "holding time" imposed by the
capacitor on the ATX supply of the first PC, it would
have crashed! But it doesn't crash. The power surge caused
by charging the main cap on the second PC, doesn't
cause the first PC to reset or anything... Really
quite amazing.

So yes, a 1 second outage, the kind the power company likes
to make when doing things in the switch yard, the PC
can drop on one of those. You want a UPS to help you
withstand 1 second outages. For tiny load glitches,
the 200mS in that ATX capacitor can smooth things over.

But for transient power events, as long as the main cap
in the ATX supply doesn't run all the way down, the design
can handle that. That's why things in your computer room,
aren't quite as grim as they could be.

I've worked with gear that had abnormal holding time
characteristics, and I can tell you, it's hell. Any
burp or fart, and there's trouble. The ATX supply has
room for a good sized cap on the mains side.

C5 and C6 in this schematic, provide "hold-up" on the
primary side of the switcher. The 220K resistors next
to the caps, are the safety bleeder resistors.

http://www.pavouk.org/hw/en_atxps.html

Paul

Paul wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:
KenK wrote:

I was innocently doing some Google searching with the Srware Iron browser
and had just clicked on a Walmart site. While waiting for it to load I
looked away to do something else and when I looked back the computer was
booting!

I vaguely recall a similar reboot many many years ago but not again for
many years. Something to be concerned about or just a seldom-seen XP bug?

If it matters using Kaspersky virus protection.

XP Home with SP3

Sometimes you may not notice power glitches (outages). They are short
to you, maybe so short you won't see the lights flicker, especially if
it is daytime and you have no lights turned on

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...9SIA3AR5N20521

"Hold-up Time (20 ms)"

That's 20 ms when supplying 1000W of DC output power.
You don't normally run them flat-out like that.

Normally, the PC is running at a fraction of full load,
and you can easily get 10x the holding time in idle
desktop situations. So the supply can last for 200ms.

As I said, about 300 ms. I was being generous. Also the older the PSU,
the less holding time it will have for power flutters. That average
reaction time of a human is 750 ms, shorter when prepared. A 20 to 300
ms power flutter may not be noticed by a human, especially during
daytime hours when lights aren't on or washed out by daylight.

VanguardLH wrote:


As I said, about 300 ms. I was being generous. Also the older the PSU,
the less holding time it will have for power flutters. That average
reaction time of a human is 750 ms, shorter when prepared. A 20 to 300
ms power flutter may not be noticed by a human, especially during
daytime hours when lights aren't on or washed out by daylight.

I can see the three-cycle glitch caused by a PC
being switched on at the back. It's not that hard
to catch. I could see it, with an incandescent light
bulb in the overhead light fixture.

You can't see it with LED lighting, because of the regulated
nature of a lot of LED lights. (Only some of the cheaper
ones, use a capacitor to limit current flow, and those suck
because of their limited tolerance to electrical environment.)

I have one PC, where the transient from the power switch
is so bad, it causes a reaction from the UPS. The UPS appears
to be approaching overload. My UPS doesn't have an LCD panel,
as those have more informative displays to tell you what
just happened.

Anandtech did a recent review (last six months) of a
1000W supply, and when it switched on, the transient
tripped a breaker. The claim was, the design was missing
the inrush limiter feature on the Active PFC circuit.
On 80+ supplies, the Active PFC can perform two useful
functions. It brings the power factor back to unity,
and during startup, it acts as an "RC" circuit in terms
of draw from the mains. And that particular supply under
review, the PFC implementation didn't have
the inrush feature in it.

Normally, cheap supplies (ones without active PFC), they
use a NTC resistor to limit startup current. That would be
NTCR1 in the upper left. The resistance is zero, when NTCR1
has heated up (it stays warm the whole time the PC is on).
The resistance is high, when NTCR1 is cold. You should wait
30 seconds after turning off a PC at the back, before flipping
it back on at the back. So NTCR1 can be cold again, and limit
the inrush.

http://www.pavouk.org/hw/en_atxps.html

We had a product at work, where NTCR1 started burning
out on units in the field. I've not heard of that
problem for a couple decades now, so I guess whoever
designs supplies, figured that one out. That's one of the
reasons I "harbor suspicions" about that way of doing it.

Paul

In message , Paul
writes:
[]
So yes, a 1 second outage, the kind the power company likes
to make when doing things in the switch yard, the PC
can drop on one of those. You want a UPS to help you
withstand 1 second outages. For tiny load glitches,
the 200mS in that ATX capacitor can smooth things over.
[]
I find laptops/netbooks survive such things no problem (-:. Of course,
using them on the mains all the time will/won't eventually knacker the
battery, or at least severely reduce its capacity, depending who you ask
and what sort of battery (and charging circuit) it is; however, for most
people who use them on the mains all the time, the battery will retain
enough capacity to certainly get over power glitches, and usually even
to carry the PC to another room, for longer than the computer lasts.

(I have _one_ elderly Toshiba [Compaq Armada 1750] where the battery has
completely died, but that machine came [second-hand] with '98 installed,
and I think actually predates that as it doesn't have Window keys. It is
virtually unique among laptops that I've encountered in having the power
supply built in, i. e. the mains lead [US: line cord] is just that, a
lead; I'd far prefer that on any machine, but the craze for quoting the
weight of laptops killed the idea. [Though with modern machines and
power supplies they could re-address it.])
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

You can tell that you are getting old when typing VCR into a document [results
that the spell checker] wants to change it to Vicar.
- Brian Gaff in uk.tech.broadcast, 2016-3-6

Paul wrote in news
KenK wrote:
Paul wrote in news
KenK wrote:
I was innocently doing some Google searching with the Srware Iron
browser and had just clicked on a Walmart site. While waiting for it
to load I looked away to do something else and when I looked back
the
computer was booting!

I vaguely recall a similar reboot many many years ago but not again
for many years. Something to be concerned about or just a seldom-
seen
XP bug?

If it matters using Kaspersky virus protection.

XP Home with SP3

TIA

Does the Kaspersky have a log ?

Yes, but the three threat logs are all empty. So evidently the boot
was
not caused by a virus? I don't see any other applicable logs.

Then you're off to Event Viewer for a look.

Event Viewer?
*******

Does the Walmart site allow third-party advertising ?
Like, with a Flash exploit in it ?

I don't know. Not familiar with Flask exploit.


Paul




--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.

KenK wrote:


Event Viewer?

Control Panel : Administrative Tools : Event Viewer

When things break, there can be a log entry.

If the error was an actual BSOD, and you have
automatic restart enabled, then when you come back
the machine might already have finished rebooting.
On an actual BSOD, no item need be written into Event
Viewer (because it crashed).

It's on a more "controlled" error condition, that there is a
possibility of a "hint" in the Event Viewer, somewhere.


I don't know. Not familiar with Flash exploit.

Flash is more than movies. It has a programming
language. The programming language is probably
why Flash keeps getting patches for security issues.

Major websites, sometimes sell advertising space.
It's a commodity kind of thing, kinda like selling
cattle. It's sold in droves. Hardly anyone checks
advertisements, to make sure there is nothing nasty
in them.

The "bad guys", they like to buy advertising on
Yahoo, and gain access to the largest number of viewers
possible. Then, they insert a Flash-based advertisement,
that breaks out of any "box" put around the Flash
plugin, and infects the machine.

That's what the exploit is. It's an attack against
the exposed surface of the Flash programming language.

Just as it's recommended not to keep Java from Sun/Oracle
installed on a computer (because it has a few holes in it),
the same goes for Flash. This is why at least one browser,
keeps track of the exploit-able state of Flash, and
puts up a cross-hatched box instead of your movie,
as a warning that Adobe has determined version X-1
is under attack, and you should update to version X
to protect yourself.

In your case, I expect it's the reverse situation. The
latest version of PPAPI flash for Iron, has a bug in it.
And it makes "ugly" movies on my machine. Parts of the
video surface are messed up. It could be, that the
latest Flash on your machine, is doing more than
what happened on mine, and it's actually causing a
crash. I can't remember the last time I had trouble
like this with Flash. It's been good for a couple years
at least.

Flash is "a rock and a hard place".

1) Can't roll back to the last version, as it
has a security hole.

2) No new version available... yet.

3) Can't remove it, because stupid sites still use it.
My Canadian news web site still uses it.

Paul

Paul wrote in news
KenK wrote:


Event Viewer?

Control Panel : Administrative Tools : Event Viewer

When things break, there can be a log entry.

I'm going to have to do some research to discover what the codes and
names mean in these listings. However, I didn't see anything at the event
time that was different from other times. Hebe to look more carefully.

If the error was an actual BSOD, and you have
automatic restart enabled, then when you come back
the machine might already have finished rebooting.
On an actual BSOD, no item need be written into Event
Viewer (because it crashed).

It's on a more "controlled" error condition, that there is a
possibility of a "hint" in the Event Viewer, somewhere.


I don't know. Not familiar with Flash exploit.

Flash is more than movies. It has a programming
language. The programming language is probably
why Flash keeps getting patches for security issues.

Major websites, sometimes sell advertising space.
It's a commodity kind of thing, kinda like selling
cattle. It's sold in droves. Hardly anyone checks
advertisements, to make sure there is nothing nasty
in them.

The "bad guys", they like to buy advertising on
Yahoo, and gain access to the largest number of viewers
possible. Then, they insert a Flash-based advertisement,
that breaks out of any "box" put around the Flash
plugin, and infects the machine.

That's what the exploit is. It's an attack against
the exposed surface of the Flash programming language.

Just as it's recommended not to keep Java from Sun/Oracle
installed on a computer (because it has a few holes in it),
the same goes for Flash. This is why at least one browser,
keeps track of the exploit-able state of Flash, and
puts up a cross-hatched box instead of your movie,
as a warning that Adobe has determined version X-1
is under attack, and you should update to version X
to protect yourself.

In your case, I expect it's the reverse situation. The
latest version of PPAPI flash for Iron, has a bug in it.
And it makes "ugly" movies on my machine. Parts of the
video surface are messed up. It could be, that the
latest Flash on your machine, is doing more than
what happened on mine, and it's actually causing a
crash. I can't remember the last time I had trouble
like this with Flash. It's been good for a couple years
at least.

Flash is "a rock and a hard place".

1) Can't roll back to the last version, as it
has a security hole.

2) No new version available... yet.

3) Can't remove it, because stupid sites still use it.
My Canadian news web site still uses it.

Paul




--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.

VanguardLH wrote in :

KenK wrote:

I was innocently doing some Google searching with the Srware Iron
browser and had just clicked on a Walmart site. While waiting for it
to load I looked away to do something else and when I looked back the
computer was booting!

I vaguely recall a similar reboot many many years ago but not again
for many years. Something to be concerned about or just a seldom-seen
XP bug?

If it matters using Kaspersky virus protection.

XP Home with SP3

Sometimes you may not notice power glitches (outages). They are short
to you, maybe so short you won't see the lights flicker, especially if
it is daytime and you have no lights turned on, but the outage
duration is long enough that the capacitors in the power supply in the
computer cannot cover the flicker in power. 300 ms is too long for a
PSU but very short to you. Capacitors as well as everything else in a
PSU will age and not perform as well over time. Also, brownouts can
cause the PSU to shutdown and those can be momentary. Some UPSes will
compensate for brownouts (for awhile but not indefinitely) by
supplanting battery energy to what is obtained from the wall outlet.
Some don't.

Do you have a UPS to which your computer is attached?

Yes.

If so, either
it is undersized or its battery is too old and needs to be replaced.
If not, you're exposed to those power flickers. Most, maybe all,
UPSes have software you install to control the power state of the
computer and communicate to the UPS. The point of a UPS is to prevent
slamming down the computer in a power outage but to shut it down
gracefully. The UPS software will keep the computer up but only for
so long depending on the remaining capacity and load on that is
reported by the UPS. The software will perform a shutdown when there
is not enough remaining run-time in the UPS. With an undersized UPS,
its software client will perform an almost immediate shutdown of
Windows during a power outage.

It's always worked in the past but as you say, could be the batteries.
However, the UPS warning lights have always signaled worn out batteries
in the past. I've had it for a looong time.

Some software for UPSes will mention when they are correcting for a
power outage or brownout but not all do. If the remaining capacity
for the UPS is too low, there won't be any uptime left on the UPS so
the software has to perform an immediate graceful shutdown in an
attempt to preserve data integrity. A right-sized UPS is for data
protection. An oversized UPS is for convenience in keeping the gear
up longer than needed for data protection; i.e., for you to keep using
the computer. Alas, many users buy under-sized UPSes. Also, with age,
the battery in the UPS will have less capacity, so one that started
oversized may become undersized. I had a 2 kVA UPS that gave me 20
minutes of uptime after a power outage (would've been longer with a
smaller load). After 5 years, that was down to around 2 minutes. I
replaced the batteries (which constituted 60 pounds of the total 80
pounds of weight for the UPS) and got back up to the full uptime.

While some UPSes have an alarm that sounds when the UPS is supplying
power (whether for a full outage or to supplement during a brownout),
not all do. Even for those with alarms, users may configure the UPS
or the software to not sound off during a power event. The alarm on
mine was very loud so I put some tape over the speaker to muffle it a
bit.

If you have a UPS, and if its software has logging and logging was
enabled, check that log to take note of power events (outages,
brownouts, etc). See if one of those power events coincides with when
your computer did a shutdown.

Either it didn't have software or I've not installed it.




--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.

KenK wrote:

If you have a UPS, and if its software has logging and logging was
enabled, check that log to take note of power events (outages,
brownouts, etc). See if one of those power events coincides with when
your computer did a shutdown.

Either it didn't have software or I've not installed it.

Maybe you could check if the sofware is still around or maybe what they
offer will still support your old UPS. The logging is helpful. It also
is what provides a graceful shutdown of the computer instead of slamming
it off when the UPS runs out of power during an outage; i.e., without
the software, you've delayed when the computer gets slammed off. The
software monitors the run-time reported by the UPS so it knows to
perform a shutdown operation when there is, say, less than 2 to 5
minutes of run-time left (to provide sufficient time to do a graceful
shutdown). Some UPSes are supported by Windows, like APC, but might not
has all the same features (I've never setup a UPS using the Windows
function).

https://www.microsoft.com/resources/....mspx?mfr=true
http://tenholder.net/tenWare2/tenHsP.../ApcUpsWin.pdf

What old UPS brand and model do you have? Does it use USB or a serial
port to connect to the PC? I've had some that used a serial port but
you could not use a standard RS-232 cable. Instead the UPS maker
switched some of the pins so you had to use their matching serial cable
(one end was marked "UPS").

If you don't have any software installed for the UPS then the shutdown
you experienced (where you saw a shutdown message and not just the
computer slamming off) was not due to a power or UPS problem.

VanguardLH wrote in :

KenK wrote:

If you have a UPS, and if its software has logging and logging was
enabled, check that log to take note of power events (outages,
brownouts, etc). See if one of those power events coincides with
when your computer did a shutdown.

Either it didn't have software or I've not installed it.

Maybe you could check if the sofware is still around or maybe what
they offer will still support your old UPS. The logging is helpful.
It also is what provides a graceful shutdown of the computer instead
of slamming it off when the UPS runs out of power during an outage;
i.e., without the software, you've delayed when the computer gets
slammed off. The software monitors the run-time reported by the UPS
so it knows to perform a shutdown operation when there is, say, less
than 2 to 5 minutes of run-time left (to provide sufficient time to do
a graceful shutdown). Some UPSes are supported by Windows, like APC,
but might not has all the same features (I've never setup a UPS using
the Windows function).

https://www.microsoft.com/resources/.../xp/all/proddo
cs/en-us/pwrmn_ups_configure_ups.mspx?mfr=true
http://tenholder.net/tenWare2/tenHsP.../ApcUpsWin.pdf

What old UPS brand and model do you have?

Emerson UPS 600

Does it use USB or a serial
port to connect to the PC?

No connection. Just the A/C power cord.

I've had some that used a serial port but
you could not use a standard RS-232 cable. Instead the UPS maker
switched some of the pins so you had to use their matching serial
cable (one end was marked "UPS").

If you don't have any software installed for the UPS then the shutdown
you experienced (where you saw a shutdown message and not just the
computer slamming off) was not due to a power or UPS problem.




--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.