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Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?



 
 
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  #61  
Old February 16th 17, 05:55 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
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Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

In article , Mayayana
wrote:


| this should clarify it:
|
| http://www.betterjpeg.com/lossless-rotation.htm

Interesting. I didn't know about that. Still a complex
operation, though, with possible problems.


it's not that complex, other than dealing with partial blocks.

it's also been done by others, so there's no need to reimplement it
again. use what's built into the os and/or a jpeg library.

It doesn't
seem like a rational way to deal with most images,
especially in this case, where the JPG is going to be
decompressed for further work anyway.


his changes are localized so it's possible to leave most of the image
lossless and only recompress the changed parts. some image editors do
that.

however, it's not worth the effort since there is no visible difference
between uncompressed and high quality jpegs. do a subtraction to see
what the loss actually is.
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  #62  
Old February 16th 17, 05:55 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
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Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

In article , Mayayana
wrote:

|
| Then you haven't found Apple's "Preview":
|
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/_DSF1344%20copyE2A.jpg
|

According to Wikipedia that's a Mac-only program.


note that he said 'apple's preview'.
  #63  
Old February 16th 17, 05:55 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
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Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

In article , Mayayana
wrote:


| This would make sense to do three operations:
| 1. Starting with the JPEG from my phone
|
| If you had an iPhone you could shoot RAW.
|

Then what free RAW program is he going to use to
batch-process those images? UFRaw? That's the only
one I know of and after trying it I bought Aftershot Pro.


no need to restrict oneself to free, especially since the apps are
typically a couple of bucks.

He's just taking lots of phone shots, editing them
and sharing them as greatly reduced JPGs. It seems
to me that starting with RAW would be a bit like
starting with fresh, organic oregano and adding that
to a bottle of Ragu. It started out top quality, but
it's unlikely anyone will taste the difference.
Plus there's the cost of the oregano.


raw is definitely overkill for photos posted to an email list, but the
point is that shooting raw eliminates any degradation entirely, up
until the very end.
  #64  
Old February 16th 17, 06:38 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Neil
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Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On 2/15/2017 10:46 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Stijn De Jong" wrote

| Here is where I get the word "canvas" from. | | When I need a
colored (usually white) area on the side (usually bottom) of | an
image for a caption, I can use either Irfanview or Paint.NET to
create | that white space, both of which refer to the white space as
a "canvas".

| Do you call it something else?

Canvas seems fine. I just never noticed the term before. If I'm
adding a white stripe I would paste the image onto a larger white
image and merge the two. If I need a white stripe in the existing
image I'd paint it with a shapes tool. I guess I've never
conceptually thought of the abstraction of a canvas that holds the
image. I'm always thinking in terms of a bitmap because in actual
practice that's what it always is. "Adding canvas" would be
accomplished by painting a bitmap onto a second larger bitmap, just
because that's how Windows graphics works.

It is not any more a Windows graphics convention than it is for any
other OS. The early digital "paint" programs (I'm referring to the
1970s) carried over many terms and concepts from physical painting
techniques, where artists often painted on "canvases", in order to help
them adapt to the tools used in those programs. It is in that same
context that "adding canvas" would mean increasing the overall pixel
grid size while retaining the original image dimensions.

--
best regards,

Neil
  #65  
Old February 16th 17, 06:52 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Tony Cooper[_2_]
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Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 12:38:04 -0500, Neil
wrote:

On 2/15/2017 10:46 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Stijn De Jong" wrote

| Here is where I get the word "canvas" from. | | When I need a
colored (usually white) area on the side (usually bottom) of | an
image for a caption, I can use either Irfanview or Paint.NET to
create | that white space, both of which refer to the white space as
a "canvas".

| Do you call it something else?

Canvas seems fine. I just never noticed the term before. If I'm
adding a white stripe I would paste the image onto a larger white
image and merge the two. If I need a white stripe in the existing
image I'd paint it with a shapes tool. I guess I've never
conceptually thought of the abstraction of a canvas that holds the
image. I'm always thinking in terms of a bitmap because in actual
practice that's what it always is. "Adding canvas" would be
accomplished by painting a bitmap onto a second larger bitmap, just
because that's how Windows graphics works.

It is not any more a Windows graphics convention than it is for any
other OS. The early digital "paint" programs (I'm referring to the
1970s) carried over many terms and concepts from physical painting
techniques, where artists often painted on "canvases", in order to help
them adapt to the tools used in those programs. It is in that same
context that "adding canvas" would mean increasing the overall pixel
grid size while retaining the original image dimensions.


Adobe Photoshop has a drop-down that allows the user to adjust the
"Canvas Size". I see nothing wrong or unusual about using the word
"Canvas" to describe the overall image.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
  #66  
Old February 16th 17, 07:02 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
PeterN[_2_]
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Posts: 22
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On 2/15/2017 9:43 PM, Stijn De Jong wrote:
On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 18:10:49 -0500, PeterN wrote:

Common use for method of of adding canvas, in Photoshop.

https://sites.lsa.umich.edu/bluecorps/2015/11/12/adding-more-space-to-your-photoshop-canvas/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zhrQ1EyoTY


Here is an example of an original file, and then the file with a canvas
batch added automatically by Irvanview, and then that file annotated in
three ways in Paint.NET (which does those three annotations better than any
other free program alive that I know of).

Please note I'm explaining below all the steps I do with batches of files
that contain hundreds upon hundreds of files - but in this particular case,
we're only working on a single file.

STARTING POINT:
1,439 KB file that was 1,661x2,142 pixels.
http://hips.htvapps.com/htv-prod-med...1486597218.jpg


1. This is the original 1,439KB photo that I saved from the above URL:
http://i.cubeupload.com/DAZw1N.jpg
a. Irfanview: File Open fname.jpg
b. Irfanview: File Thumbnails
c. Thumbnails: Options Select all
d. Thumbnails: File JPG Lossless Operations Lossless rotation with
selected files
e. Irfanview: File Start batch dialog with selected files
f. In the batch dialog, I set the "Options" to resize to 800x600 and to
save at 80% Quality (and nothing else). I also set the "Advanced" options
to add a white canvas to the bottom. If I want, I can set a trillion other
options, but I won't bother explaining them here.
Here is a screenshot of the Irfanview "Options":
http://i.cubeupload.com/l6gNYt.jpg

Here is a screenshot of the Irfanview "Advanced" options:
http://i.cubeupload.com/sz8Zar.jpg

2. This is the photo after Irfanview 80% batch resized it to 800x600 &
Irfanview added a white canvas to the bottom:
http://i.cubeupload.com/qfcHIm.jpg
It is now 149 KB.

3. This is the photo after annotating with Paint.NET:
http://i.cubeupload.com/wpMEIS.jpg
It is now 187 KB.

4. This is the photo re-re-sized by Irfanview at 80% Quality:
http://i.cubeupload.com/tYHmt8.jpg
It is now 184 KB.

Hmmm... again, it didn't show the almost doubling of size I normally see.

I think the starting point photo is the difference, since I normally start
with my own photos from my own camera, and not with photos from the web!

I need to do the test again, but with my own photos!



I have never used the freeware programs for processing and cannot
compare them to PS. I have changed the canvas size many times in PS, and
find it trivial to extend the canvas, on any side. As in many other
objectives, there are several methods to extend the canvas. For my
purposes a simple resize works just fine.



--
PeterN
  #67  
Old February 16th 17, 07:11 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
PeterN[_2_]
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Posts: 22
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On 2/15/2017 8:48 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:


snip


What was twisted?


Do you mean his twisted mind has been cured?


--
PeterN
  #68  
Old February 16th 17, 07:49 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Neil
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Posts: 714
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On 2/16/2017 12:52 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 12:38:04 -0500, Neil
wrote:

On 2/15/2017 10:46 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Stijn De Jong" wrote

| Here is where I get the word "canvas" from. | | When I need a
colored (usually white) area on the side (usually bottom) of | an
image for a caption, I can use either Irfanview or Paint.NET to
create | that white space, both of which refer to the white space as
a "canvas".

| Do you call it something else?

Canvas seems fine. I just never noticed the term before. If I'm
adding a white stripe I would paste the image onto a larger white
image and merge the two. If I need a white stripe in the existing
image I'd paint it with a shapes tool. I guess I've never
conceptually thought of the abstraction of a canvas that holds the
image. I'm always thinking in terms of a bitmap because in actual
practice that's what it always is. "Adding canvas" would be
accomplished by painting a bitmap onto a second larger bitmap, just
because that's how Windows graphics works.

It is not any more a Windows graphics convention than it is for any
other OS. The early digital "paint" programs (I'm referring to the
1970s) carried over many terms and concepts from physical painting
techniques, where artists often painted on "canvases", in order to help
them adapt to the tools used in those programs. It is in that same
context that "adding canvas" would mean increasing the overall pixel
grid size while retaining the original image dimensions.


Adobe Photoshop has a drop-down that allows the user to adjust the
"Canvas Size". I see nothing wrong or unusual about using the word
"Canvas" to describe the overall image.

It's no more wrong than referring to "brushes", "paint bucket", "eraser"
or any of the other tools that have no real connection to physical world
objects of the same name.

--
best regards,

Neil
  #69  
Old February 16th 17, 08:02 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
android
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Posts: 15
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

Follow-up-To: rec.photo.digital

In article , Neil
wrote:

On 2/16/2017 12:52 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 12:38:04 -0500, Neil
wrote:

On 2/15/2017 10:46 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Stijn De Jong" wrote

| Here is where I get the word "canvas" from. | | When I need a
colored (usually white) area on the side (usually bottom) of | an
image for a caption, I can use either Irfanview or Paint.NET to
create | that white space, both of which refer to the white space as
a "canvas".

| Do you call it something else?

Canvas seems fine. I just never noticed the term before. If I'm
adding a white stripe I would paste the image onto a larger white
image and merge the two. If I need a white stripe in the existing
image I'd paint it with a shapes tool. I guess I've never
conceptually thought of the abstraction of a canvas that holds the
image. I'm always thinking in terms of a bitmap because in actual
practice that's what it always is. "Adding canvas" would be
accomplished by painting a bitmap onto a second larger bitmap, just
because that's how Windows graphics works.

It is not any more a Windows graphics convention than it is for any
other OS. The early digital "paint" programs (I'm referring to the
1970s) carried over many terms and concepts from physical painting
techniques, where artists often painted on "canvases", in order to help
them adapt to the tools used in those programs. It is in that same
context that "adding canvas" would mean increasing the overall pixel
grid size while retaining the original image dimensions.


Adobe Photoshop has a drop-down that allows the user to adjust the
"Canvas Size". I see nothing wrong or unusual about using the word
"Canvas" to describe the overall image.

It's no more wrong than referring to "brushes", "paint bucket", "eraser"
or any of the other tools that have no real connection to physical world
objects of the same name.


Oki... So this is a Microsoft project that wants donations...

"It started development as an undergraduate college senior design
project mentored by Microsoft, and is currently being maintained by some
of the alumni that originally worked on it. Originally intended as a
free replacement for the Microsoft Paint software that comes with
Windows..."

http://www.getpaint.net/donate.html
--
teleportation kills
  #70  
Old February 16th 17, 08:48 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Stijn De Jong
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Posts: 76
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 09:04:21 -0500, Mayayana wrote:

The method sounds handy insofar as that IV can
do a batch operation, but you end up damaging the
images more than necessary. As noted earlier, if you
first resave as BMP or TIF the result will be better
and IV should be able to batch-process those. The
only reason for JPG at all is to be able to send a
small file.


On Linux I batch Imagemagick commands which do all the same things (using
Kolourpaint freeware to perform the manual task of adding text, curved
arrows, and bounding boxes).

Kolourpaint is not as good as is Paint.NET for those three basic tasks:
1. Curved arrows
2. Bounding boxes
3. Text captions

But it is the best I could find on Linux.

Luckily, on Linux, I can move the rotation commands to the top, so,
converting to TIF is something that can put in the first few lines of the
shell script; but when batching in Irfanview on Windows, I don't know what
order Irfanviews uses for a conversion process.
  #71  
Old February 16th 17, 08:48 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Stijn De Jong
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Posts: 76
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 09:31:31 -0500, Mayayana wrote:

Almost. Convert to TIF or BMP would be the
first step. You want to avoid any operations
on the JPG. Don't do *anything* with the image
until you convert it to a lossless format.


Thanks for that clarification to *first* convert to one of the many
lossless formats. That's trivially easy to do in batch with Irfanview, so,
that's a great suggestion.

Since I email the annotated shrunken results out to a list, I eventually
must shrink them (generally to 800x600 or to 640x480 if there are more than
25 or so).

In general, I snap each day about 100 pictures (rough estimate as the
number changes depending on the topic, where sometimes it's upwards of a
few hundred pictures and other times it's as low as a few dozen).

Then I copy them over to the computer and operate on them on the computer
(either Linux or Windows).

The captioning is the time-consuming part because it can't be automated.
Each picture has unique captions, arrows, circles, etc., similar to the
examples already previously shown.

While I have scripts on Linux which use ImageMagick commands to do all the
things (and more) that Irfanview does, what I love about Irfanview is that
I can just click buttons to do all the batch commands (so Irfanview is, in
effect, easier than Imagemagick batch scripts).

The only thing I don't know about Irfanview is what *order* it batches
things, so, for example, if I click the buttons to both crop and convert
the JPG to TIF, I don't know the order that Irfanview does that set of
operations.

On Linux, I would just move the Imagemagick conversion of JPG to TIF to the
top of the batch file so I'd be sure of the order of operations.
  #72  
Old February 16th 17, 08:48 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Stijn De Jong
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Posts: 76
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 21:13:27 -0800, Savageduck wrote:

Then you haven't found Apple's "Preview":
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/_DSF1344%20copyE2A.jpg


Oh, I've found Apple's Preview; but it has been a long time since I last
used Preview to create arrows (where it failed miserably to do the simplest
of things).

Newsgroup: comp.sys.mac.apps

Date: October 3, 2014

Subject: What is a good app for editing screenshots that does the
3 critical things well?

Link:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ocbY%5B1-25%5D

Body:
Quote:
What is a good app for editing screenshots that does the 3 critical
things well?

1. Crop and size the screenshot
2. Text the screenshot (with and without underlying white space)
3. Easily circle and arrow as needed to highlight sections

All I want to know is what's the most basic screenshot editor that does
those three things.
  #73  
Old February 16th 17, 08:48 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Stijn De Jong
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Posts: 76
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 09:09:49 -0500, Mayayana wrote:

According to Wikipedia that's a Mac-only program.


We already tested Preview in detail for this exact purpose way back in 2014
and it failed to do simple screenshot editing tasks.

Subject: What is a good app for editing screenshots that does the
3 critical things well? (date October 3, 2014)

The long gory detailed thread is he
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!to...ocbY%5B1-25%5D

The thread simply asked for the best freebie program on the Mac that did
the basic screenshot editing tasks well, and it tenably concluded (after
almost a thousand posts) that none exist that did basic editing tasks as
well as does Paint.NET on Windows.

In that thread, the one-to-one comparison of steps and results was made,
where you'd be utterly shocked at what Mac users put up with, at least in
their freeware options for basic screenshot editing.

The mac users gave tons of excuses but the question was a fair question,
and the results were tenably definitive. No sense rehashing that out here,
unless Apple substantially (and I mean very substantially) improved the
basic editing features of Apple's Preview in the interim.
  #74  
Old February 16th 17, 08:48 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Stijn De Jong
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Posts: 76
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On Thu, 16 Feb 2017 13:02:48 -0500, PeterN wrote:

I have never used the freeware programs for processing and cannot
compare them to PS. I have changed the canvas size many times in PS, and
find it trivial to extend the canvas, on any side. As in many other
objectives, there are several methods to extend the canvas. For my
purposes a simple resize works just fine.


I don't generally work on photographs so much as screenshots, so the basic
freeware combination of Irfanview for what it does best, and Paint.NET for
what it does best, is what I use mostly.

Since I don't use the payware stuff you use, I can't say the next sentence
with certain assurances; but having used freebie editing programs for
decades, I can say with reasonable confidence the following two sentences:

1. Nothing on Windows is faster (nor simpler) than Irfanview, for viewing
images, setting up basic batch processing of those images, and for cropping
and adding a set-sized canvas to all the photos to be batch resized,
converted and renamed.

Howeever, Irfanview positively sucks in the things that Paint.NET excels
in.

2. Nothing on Windows is both easier for a suite of basic curved arrows
than the way the arrow features of Paint.NET was designed. The feature to
add captions is pretty good, as is the feature that circles things with
boxes and elipses, but the real beauty of Paint.NET is how it does
arrowing.

The portable editor with the most promise, is Pinta:
http://pinta.en.softonic.com/mac

In my humble opinion, any engineers who are designing a new paint program,
should first try out these two sets of features for basic screenshot
editing. They use the fewest steps possible and cover a wide range of basic
options.

As an example of how to add text wrong, with Paint.NET you just click once
and start typing. If you want to change fonts or colors or position, you
can do that at any time, but it's just point and type to start. In many
other programs, you have to draw a bounding box first, which is just crazy
to add an unnecessary step that adds no initial value.

Likewise, for arrowing, in Paint.NET you just click on the start point
(which sets the direction) and then you click on the ending point. The line
you drew is "alive" in that you can change the shape, curves, width, color,
dottedness, arrows, endshapes, etc., at any time.

That's how adding text and arrowing should work, IMHO.
Any other way is too many unnecessary steps, AFAIK.
  #75  
Old February 16th 17, 08:51 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
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Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

In article , Stijn De Jong
wrote:


We already tested Preview in detail for this exact purpose way back in 2014
and it failed to do simple screenshot editing tasks.


*you* failed. the app did not fail.

preview is a very capable tool to make simple edits (and even not so
simple), the types of things you've described. it's one of the more
underrated apps on a mac.
 




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