What is SP2 doing - apart from trashing everybody's PC??

Shenan Stanley wrote:

Herb Fritatta wrote:

Can you point me to a reference that categorically identifies *any*
piece of adware or spyware which is known to conflict with SP2 or
*known* to create installation problems? Now granted, common sense
tells us, or should tell us, that those are undesireable things, but
you are being nothing more than a parrot, and not a very bright one,
when you repeat the problems-are-caused-by-spyware mantra. I find it
very amusing that SP2 apologists like Carey and Jupiter are fond of
saying that MS couldn't possibly have tested SP2 on all possible
configurations, which is certainly true, but out of the other sides of
their mouths they tell us, as Carey does in this very thread, "A
well-maintained PC will install SP2 without any adverse installation
issues." But if MS didn't test all possible configurations, how does
he know that to be true? He doesn't.


First off, I do not appreciate the implication that I am not intelligent. I
presented you with an intelligent argument and essentially received the
response of "Bawk Bawk".

I have personally removed adware that was installed on the machines prior to
SP2's installation and SP2 had, in its ignorance of what the application
did, opened the appropriate holes in the firewall. I have also been to
machines where users installed applications known to contain spyware/malware
and because they wanted their Bonzi Buddy/Weatherbug/iWon/P2P crud to work,
they just answered "Yes, allow it" to whatever they saw - thus opening the
necessary ports to allow more spying/ads, etc - then wonder why they are
getting them.

I never stated that ALL well maintained PCs would install SP2 without
adverse effects - I did quite the obvious. I did state that the ratio is
far from 50/50 and closer to 80% good/20% bad with 75% of that 20% bad
being user controllable and 25% being either Microsoft's or some third party
application/hardware manufacturer's fault. (Just like when people started
going from Windows 98 to Windows XP and the Printer/Scanner manufacturers
did not put out drivers so that people would be (in essence) forced to buy
new compatible scanners/printers.)

I have seen SP2's firewall mess with HP printers, whose full drivers for
some reason want HP to send them data - what's up with that?!

Random find..
http://chris-cohen.blogspot.com/2004...ce-pack-2.html

As for what Carey or Jupiter or anyone else says - *shrug*, again - I
beleive someone should do their own research before doing anything,
especially something that is as large as a service pack where their computer
and all the information on it is concerned. Essentially, although I may
respect what you, Jupiter and/or Carey have to say - I will not blindly
follow the advice.

If you are going to quote me on the next post, quote this next paragraph:

I never said that all the problems were caused merely by spyware.. I said
that of the 20% bad that seem to be common, 75% of those could be fixed by a
user putting forth the effort to make sure their PC is ready for SP2 - it's
not a small upgrade, it's not a minor change - common sense says you don't
go buy a new couch for your home before you measure the door to make sure it
will fit. (Or make sure it goes with the decor, won't clash with your other
furniture, etc.) Spyware is ONE part, hardware drivers another, software
patches and looking to see if your current software has had problems with
SP2 (visit their web page - they usually have messages in their support
section if they have had issues), defragmenting your hard drive, backing up
important files and folders (again - MAJOR change here - don't be a moron
about it), checking to make sure even your system BIOS is compatible.

As with any system-wide upgrade; go in with a plan, don't go in blind.


The advice to be prepared is good and I have no argument with it. I
think I owe you at least a partial apology because I went off on you
(i.e., I responded directly to your post) when my indignation should
have been more diffusely aimed. That said, I still maintain that there's
far too much assumption that individual users must have done something
wrong when an SP2 install goes awry.

Where did I say something that means this:
"A well-maintained PC will install SP2 without any adverse
installation
issues."
You need to read my posts again if you think I said that.

I avoid such all encompassing statements for many reasons not the
least of which I have no control over your computer.
Preparation will reduce the chance of problems but the only thing
capable of promising no problems for you with your computer is boxing
it up and sending it away.

You say:
"Can you point me to a reference..."
Then you say:
"Now granted, common sense tells us, or should tell us"
You really answered your own question.
If you read all the posts in the forums, you will see some where
spyware viruses etc were the cause, they were removed, SP-2 now
installs properly.
There are not many but they are there.
I have seen it many times, so it is first hand and not a parrot as you
seem to think.
But then again as you said "common sense tells us"

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/


"Herb Fritatta" wrote in message
...
Can you point me to a reference that categorically identifies *any*
piece of adware or spyware which is known to conflict with SP2 or
*known* to create installation problems? Now granted, common sense
tells us, or should tell us, that those are undesireable things, but
you are being nothing more than a parrot, and not a very bright one,
when you repeat the problems-are-caused-by-spyware mantra. I find it
very amusing that SP2 apologists like Carey and Jupiter are fond of
saying that MS couldn't possibly have tested SP2 on all possible
configurations, which is certainly true, but out of the other sides
of their mouths they tell us, as Carey does in this very thread, "A
well-maintained PC will install SP2 without any adverse installation
issues." But if MS didn't test all possible configurations, how
does he know that to be true? He doesn't.

Here's my take on the matter, as I', one individual who will post the good
or positive on the upgrade. I have installed SP2 on 6 home computers since
it was released to the public and have yet experienced any problems. Call
me "Lucky", or maybe what most MVP's are telling the public is true.

1. Do your homework before installing, i.e.: drivers, software updates
2. BACKUP all important data
3. Keep your OS as clean as possible. i.e.: antivirus, spyware removal,
defrag
4. Use newsgroups, search for subjects that may pertain to your situation

I have too much hardware crap to list, so I'm going to spew on about that.
All I know is that I practice "safe" computing. I'm behind a hardware
firewall and have zonealarm on all my boxes. I'm not at all scared to dive
into the registry if needed. Followed all the Release Candidate posting by
people who knew what they were doing by installing SP2. Searched the
internet for more articles than I care to remember about the pitfalls of
SP2.

With all this in mind, I took the plunge and downloaded the entire SP,
burned to a disk and also stored on my server. 1 Computer was updated by
using the disk. 4 computers were updated with the file stored locally on
the HD. The last box, and probably the most important was my wife's work
system, which I updated using the auto-update feature. Any errors to that
one and my life becomes a living hell!!! I even let my wife perform this
one.

Sytems networked throughout the house:

Gateway laptop 1.8mhz Audio/Video connected to stereo
Sager laptop 2.4mhz my main box as desktop replacement
Gateway Desktop 1.8mhz wife main work
Intel Dual Xeon 600mhz file server
Gateway laptop 1.8mhz daughters school computer
AMD K6-500 dual boot w/ Linux

So Far, I have had only one issue with SP2, and that was because of some
screwey codecs after installng WMP10. Un-installed WMP, restored to an
eralier date and was fine afterwards.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that if more people would take the time
to do some research on this subject matter instead of just installing
because some friend said to, then maybe their computing experience would be
a bit better. SP2 really doesn't look like much of an upgrade from the
average person's view, but it is much more that that. most of the changes
were made at the OS Core level. Functioality hasn't really changed at all.

I'm by no means any authority on this matter, nor are my opinions meant to
be. I'm just an average user. I don't have an A+, MSCE, MVP, anything else
MS might think I need. I'm just someone who enjoys computers, likes to
tinker and experiment, but also understand the reality of the Internet world
and that people make it go 'round. Whenever there's a human element
involved...............

Thanks for Listening








"Hugh" wrote in message
...
Do I detect a thread here, lotsa people seem to be
updating to XP SP2 and then start losing things like
soundcards, lan ports, printers, scanners, drives,
removable drives

Is it me - am I paranoid or has MS screwed it up
completely???

Hugh

I have installed SP2 on three systems without a single glitch, and I
know of lots of others whose experiences have been similar. You hear
about the problems, not the "no problem"s.

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:40:59 -0700, "Hugh"
wrote:

Do I detect a thread here, lotsa people seem to be
updating to XP SP2 and then start losing things like
soundcards, lan ports, printers, scanners, drives,
removable drives

Is it me - am I paranoid or has MS screwed it up
completely???

Hugh


Please respond to the Newsgroup, so that others may benefit from the exchange.
Peter R. Fletcher

Hi:

First of all, I don't think Microsoft is so stupid that it wishes to screw
up everyone's system unless it wants to close down for good.

The intension is surly good and the problems are definitely exist.

I have never seen a single "perfect" product in any categories without any
problems. Please enlighten me, if you have seen a perfect product in the
world.

As a user who also knows a bit of computer, I can fully understand the
frustration when we encountered problems; sometime I just wished to kick
someone's butt.

There are many experts and reviews out there discussing if SP2 is truly
needed. Many think it's good and others think differently.

I do think MS is trying to "help" its customers and "do" its part of works
on more safe computing and using Internet technologies.

If we don't think that we need SP2, let's use other ways to solve the
problem.

If we think we need it, we just install it.

If we need helps from here, I ask and hope someone will be kind enough to
provide.

The point is, there has never been a perfect product in the world regardless
of it's a software, hardware, or even an airplane, and there will never be
one.

There is not need to use limited facts to argue about if SP2 is good or bad.

The choice is ours, right? It has been always like that



--
Business executive who believes technology but don't want to be messed
around.
"Peter R. Fletcher" pfletch(at)fletchers(hyphen)uk.com
...
I have installed SP2 on three systems without a single glitch, and I
know of lots of others whose experiences have been similar. You hear
about the problems, not the "no problem"s.

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:40:59 -0700, "Hugh"
wrote:

Do I detect a thread here, lotsa people seem to be
updating to XP SP2 and then start losing things like
soundcards, lan ports, printers, scanners, drives,
removable drives

Is it me - am I paranoid or has MS screwed it up
completely???

Hugh


Please respond to the Newsgroup, so that others may benefit from the
exchange.
Peter R. Fletcher

-----Original Message-----
This is a Microsoft "help"newsgroup.
Why bother posting here if you cannot
ask an intelligent question that could
possibly lead to a solution to a problem
you have with the Windows XP operating
system or installing SP2?

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows XP - Shell/User

Be Smart! Protect Your PC!
http://www.microsoft.com/athome/secu...tect/default.a
spx

Please show us where in this thread you posted an
intelligent *answer* "...that could possibly lead to a
solution..."

I think that you intended to reply to the root of this thread - I
certainly don't disagree with you.

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:16:45 +0800, "xfile"
wrote:

Hi:

First of all, I don't think Microsoft is so stupid that it wishes to screw
up everyone's system unless it wants to close down for good.

The intension is surly good and the problems are definitely exist.

I have never seen a single "perfect" product in any categories without any
problems. Please enlighten me, if you have seen a perfect product in the
world.

As a user who also knows a bit of computer, I can fully understand the
frustration when we encountered problems; sometime I just wished to kick
someone's butt.

There are many experts and reviews out there discussing if SP2 is truly
needed. Many think it's good and others think differently.

I do think MS is trying to "help" its customers and "do" its part of works
on more safe computing and using Internet technologies.

If we don't think that we need SP2, let's use other ways to solve the
problem.

If we think we need it, we just install it.

If we need helps from here, I ask and hope someone will be kind enough to
provide.

The point is, there has never been a perfect product in the world regardless
of it's a software, hardware, or even an airplane, and there will never be
one.

There is not need to use limited facts to argue about if SP2 is good or bad.

The choice is ours, right? It has been always like that


Please respond to the Newsgroup, so that others may benefit from the exchange.
Peter R. Fletcher

Carey the Parrot made that statement, and one from blind MS zealotry, =
not of one from any techincal experience.


"Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote in message =
...
Where did I say something that means this:
"A well-maintained PC will install SP2 without any adverse=20
installation
issues."
You need to read my posts again if you think I said that.
=20
I avoid such all encompassing statements for many reasons not the=20
least of which I have no control over your computer.
Preparation will reduce the chance of problems but the only thing=20
capable of promising no problems for you with your computer is boxing=20
it up and sending it away.
=20
You say:
"Can you point me to a reference..."
Then you say:
"Now granted, common sense tells us, or should tell us"
You really answered your own question.
If you read all the posts in the forums, you will see some where=20
spyware viruses etc were the cause, they were removed, SP-2 now=20
installs properly.
There are not many but they are there.
I have seen it many times, so it is first hand and not a parrot as you =

seem to think.
But then again as you said "common sense tells us"
=20
--=20
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar/
=20
=20
"Herb Fritatta" wrote in message=20
...
Can you point me to a reference that categorically identifies *any*=20
piece of adware or spyware which is known to conflict with SP2 or=20
*known* to create installation problems? Now granted, common sense=20
tells us, or should tell us, that those are undesireable things, but=20
you are being nothing more than a parrot, and not a very bright one,=20
when you repeat the problems-are-caused-by-spyware mantra. I find it=20
very amusing that SP2 apologists like Carey and Jupiter are fond of=20
saying that MS couldn't possibly have tested SP2 on all possible=20
configurations, which is certainly true, but out of the other sides=20
of their mouths they tell us, as Carey does in this very thread, "A=20
well-maintained PC will install SP2 without any adverse installation=20
issues." But if MS didn't test all possible configurations, how=20
does he know that to be true? He doesn't.=20
=20

Herb Fritatta wrote:
Can you point me to a reference that categorically identifies *any*
piece of adware or spyware which is known to conflict with SP2 or
*known* to create installation problems?

Interesting Article:
http://www.onlinepcfix.com/spyware/cnn1.htm

--
- Shenan -
--
The information is provided "as is", it is suggested you research for
yourself before you take any advice - you are the one ultimately
responsible for your actions/problems/solutions. Know what you are
getting into before you jump in with both feet.

Well I certainly touched a few nerves there!!

I like to think I am very careful: Norton firewall and
AV, update all the time from Windows update, regularly
use AdAware and SpyBot, back up my data, including
mailboxes and address books, If you don't believe the
last I can show you the DVDs!

To be doubly sure, because I had a hardware problem prior
to it (power supply died and MoBo was rather ancient)I
installed the new hardware (ASUS MoBO - A7N8X with an
Athlon 2400XP processor 512 mb RAM) and then I went for a
completely clean install of XP (reformatted HD), updated
as required by the Windows Update site and then
downloaded SP2. So apart from the aforementioned Norton
there was nothing on the HD apart from Win XP.

I posted the below on the newsgroup too and then read
other people's posts about probs they were having.

Still can't see the WinXP supported (yes I looked at all
the SP2 documentation on the site and checked
compatablities) AC97 sound chip nor the on board RJ45
10/100 Ethernet port. Made sure I got the latest drivers
from Windows etc. My BIOS reports both chips but Win XP
does not see them.

So I installed a stand alone PCI LAN Card, having first
disabled the RJ45 on-board in BIOS, WInXP sees it,
installs drivers and then "hides" it so it doesn't appear
in Netwrok Connections and I can't set up my network!

Sense my frustration yet?

Hugh





-----Original Message-----
Do I detect a thread here, lotsa people seem to be
updating to XP SP2 and then start losing things like
soundcards, lan ports, printers, scanners, drives,
removable drives

Is it me - am I paranoid or has MS screwed it up
completely???

Hugh
.

Shenan Stanley wrote:
Herb Fritatta wrote:

Can you point me to a reference that categorically identifies *any*
piece of adware or spyware which is known to conflict with SP2 or
*known* to create installation problems?


Interesting Article:
http://www.onlinepcfix.com/spyware/cnn1.htm


A great source for tech info--the Associated Press. And it still doesn't
answer the question.

Hi:

Just a thought. One of my home systems using Asus P4P800 with onboard LAN,
which according to technician, the LAN chip has never failed even when some
MBs are dead.

Well, it just happened a few days after I installed SP2 and switched MB with
another system without any reasons. BIOS can detect but Win XP cannot, and
there is no such green light on after the system boot.

So I just sent it back to Asus for a complete check up. Could it be also a
MB problem for your case?

Anyway, just a thought.

Good luck.

--
Business executive who believes technology but don't want to be messed
around.
"Hugh"
...
Well I certainly touched a few nerves there!!

I like to think I am very careful: Norton firewall and
AV, update all the time from Windows update, regularly
use AdAware and SpyBot, back up my data, including
mailboxes and address books, If you don't believe the
last I can show you the DVDs!

To be doubly sure, because I had a hardware problem prior
to it (power supply died and MoBo was rather ancient)I
installed the new hardware (ASUS MoBO - A7N8X with an
Athlon 2400XP processor 512 mb RAM) and then I went for a
completely clean install of XP (reformatted HD), updated
as required by the Windows Update site and then
downloaded SP2. So apart from the aforementioned Norton
there was nothing on the HD apart from Win XP.

I posted the below on the newsgroup too and then read
other people's posts about probs they were having.

Still can't see the WinXP supported (yes I looked at all
the SP2 documentation on the site and checked
compatablities) AC97 sound chip nor the on board RJ45
10/100 Ethernet port. Made sure I got the latest drivers
from Windows etc. My BIOS reports both chips but Win XP
does not see them.

So I installed a stand alone PCI LAN Card, having first
disabled the RJ45 on-board in BIOS, WInXP sees it,
installs drivers and then "hides" it so it doesn't appear
in Netwrok Connections and I can't set up my network!

Sense my frustration yet?

Hugh





-----Original Message-----
Do I detect a thread here, lotsa people seem to be
updating to XP SP2 and then start losing things like
soundcards, lan ports, printers, scanners, drives,
removable drives

Is it me - am I paranoid or has MS screwed it up
completely???

Hugh
.

Herb Fritatta wrote:
Can you point me to a reference that categorically identifies *any*
piece of adware or spyware which is known to conflict with SP2 or
*known* to create installation problems?

Shenan Stanley wrote:
Interesting Article:
http://www.onlinepcfix.com/spyware/cnn1.htm


Herb Fritatta wrote:
A great source for tech info--the Associated Press. And it still
doesn't answer the question.

See, here is the point I am trying to make - again - if you read the
article, it does not just have to do with Spyware - they suggest (as I do)
to PREPARE your system for SP2. They do make reference to scanning your
system for spyware, but they also suggest upgrading and patching and general
safety precautions...

The point of all these articles are the same - the information is out
there - if someone is foolish enough not to look at the paint before they
put it on the wall, then they deserve the hunter orange/puke green bedroom.

http://www.halifaxlive.com/windows_x...62004_7854.php

Read this, he actually recommends against SP2.
http://channels.lockergnome.com/news...ding_sp2.phtml

No - I don't CARE if they ever mention a specific piece of spyware - it's
all trash, it should all be killed. The impression I am getting here is
that you think everyone is just jumping on the bandwagon that Spyware is the
reason all SP2 installs have gone wrong and that with a perfectly maintained
system, SP2 would work everytime. I see that there will be people unable to
install SP2. It's a fact - I accept it and I see nothing wrong with it. To
me SP2 was never a minor upgrade, I mean it is huge, it obviously changes a
lot of the playing field. It's like getting the next version of Windows but
not having to pay.

Maybe Microsoft should have taken the Macintosh approach, introduced 130
fixes rolled up in a "new OS" for $129 (less than $1 per "feature"!)
*shrug* I don't care. I just want to make sure that the point is out there
that although 2% to 5% of users out there will have legitimate gripes, the
rest probably just need to be sure they are ready to upgrade before they do.

And I see nothing wrong with NOT listing a specific piece of spyware and
telling people to get rid of it before they install SP2. "Common Sense"
tells you that getting rid of trash is a good thing.

--
- Shenan -
--
The information is provided "as is", it is suggested you research for
yourself before you take any advice - you are the one ultimately
responsible for your actions/problems/solutions. Know what you are
getting into before you jump in with both feet.

Hugh! There's your problem. You did all that to your "clean" computer. That
is, a computer without the requisite latest M/B drivers having been
installed. I own 3 Asus A7N8X Deluxe 2.0 M/B's, so I think I know.

You need the chipset drivers installed! Load the O/S. Then install the
latest version of Directx (you need this to install the chipset drivers).
Then, install the M/B drivers. Suggest Nvidia version 5.10 (although ver.
4.27 are stable also)! Then, update to your hearts content!

--

Regards:

Richard Urban

aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)

"Hugh" wrote in message
...
Well I certainly touched a few nerves there!!

I like to think I am very careful: Norton firewall and
AV, update all the time from Windows update, regularly
use AdAware and SpyBot, back up my data, including
mailboxes and address books, If you don't believe the
last I can show you the DVDs!

To be doubly sure, because I had a hardware problem prior
to it (power supply died and MoBo was rather ancient)I
installed the new hardware (ASUS MoBO - A7N8X with an
Athlon 2400XP processor 512 mb RAM) and then I went for a
completely clean install of XP (reformatted HD), updated
as required by the Windows Update site and then
downloaded SP2. So apart from the aforementioned Norton
there was nothing on the HD apart from Win XP.

I posted the below on the newsgroup too and then read
other people's posts about probs they were having.

Still can't see the WinXP supported (yes I looked at all
the SP2 documentation on the site and checked
compatablities) AC97 sound chip nor the on board RJ45
10/100 Ethernet port. Made sure I got the latest drivers
from Windows etc. My BIOS reports both chips but Win XP
does not see them.

So I installed a stand alone PCI LAN Card, having first
disabled the RJ45 on-board in BIOS, WInXP sees it,
installs drivers and then "hides" it so it doesn't appear
in Netwrok Connections and I can't set up my network!

Sense my frustration yet?

Hugh





-----Original Message-----
Do I detect a thread here, lotsa people seem to be
updating to XP SP2 and then start losing things like
soundcards, lan ports, printers, scanners, drives,
removable drives

Is it me - am I paranoid or has MS screwed it up
completely???

Hugh
.

"Hugh" wrote in message
...
Do I detect a thread here, lotsa people seem to be
updating to XP SP2 and then start losing things like
soundcards, lan ports, printers, scanners, drives,
removable drives

Is it me - am I paranoid or has MS screwed it up
completely???

Hugh


How about all of you that complain or have issues switch to Linux.
I'm sure everything would work great for you. You may have to write your own
drivers,
compile software before you can install it (all with Unix commands) and
other Linux related crap.
Just remember one thing, there is no perfect OS. Windows or Linux have so
many hardware/software possibilities,
there is no way to make it perfect. Someone will always have problems.
Just ask here for help.