What OS do most non-USA computers come with nowadays?

On Sat, 04 Feb 2017 17:35:15 -0000, Paul wrote:

James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Fri, 03 Feb 2017 23:17:44 -0000, Char Jackson wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2017 19:19:04 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2017 02:17:07 -0000, Mayayana
wrote:

Any
decent disk imaging software will copy C drive to
a compressed file and put it back on an empty drive.

I see no point in that. The point of me cloning it was I could
actually put the backup disk into the machine if the internal disks
had blown up, and it'd boot off it. If that's not possible, then
simply copying all the files using xxcopy is fine. What use is one
big image file to me?

You're not limited to clones OR images. If you have spare drives, you
can have one or more clones AND one or more images.

Clones have the advantage when you want to be able to replace a failed
drive by plugging in the clone, then boot and be on your way. That's
extremely comforting and I fully understand why you want that.

Images have the advantage in that a single drive, if it's big enough,
can hold lots of images, and any of those images can later be burned to
an empty drive, thus creating a 'clone' that's current as of the date
that the image was created.

Clones are more convenient and less efficient.
Images are more efficient and less convenient.
Take your pick, or choose a mix of both.

Whether you go with clones or images, it's easy to reach in and pull out
specific files, so that's a wash.

The trouble with image files, is you rely on having the software there
to read the file. And a corruption can lose the whole thing.

Maybe you could add some parity blocks to the archive (QuickPAR) ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quickpar

*******

I've had a couple Macrium .mrimg files, where I ran a "Verify"
over them, and they failed. The file in question, might have been
around 1TB or so (Macrium output can only go up to 2.2TB). So
damage does happen (even if I cannot figure out where the damage is).

VHD files can be read by multiple utilities, but I'm not
aware of any utility that offers "repair" for such. As far
as I know, that's just a block-level storage scheme (so the
blocks are in a way, independent of one another). There might
be some bad error multiplication, if a chunk of one of those was
bad.

The original Windows 7 System Image uses VHD. The same backup
feature on Windows 10, uses VHDX, and that format cannot be read
by 7ZIP. To convert VHDX to VHD, takes a Hyper-V installation
(as then, the utilities in Hyper-V would work for you). Macrium
has its own built-in converter, which converts a captured MRIMG
into a VHD file.

I have my own block compressor for sector-by-sector images,
but I cannot recommend that either. If my compression symbol
were to go missing in the stream, the result on the output
would be "huge" :-( My compressor comes with both input and
output checksum, which allows me to detect if anything has
changed, between backup and restore. I can run a restore process
to NUL if I want, and then just use it for "Verify", without
needing an actual verify command line option.

The bottom line - use a PAR scheme.

At least one of the PAR schemes, is not mathematically sound.
It could recover archives "most of the time", but because the
math wasn't robust, some people were occasionally finding situations
where it wasn't working (numerical sensitivity). You want to
review what's known about that, before selecting your flavor
of PAR. That was a long time ago, when it was screwing up,
and I haven't played with that in years.

I guess my solution, is to create more than one image. And use
"Full" rather than "Incremental Forever" or similar. It takes me
all day to do backups, so running a Full on everything, doesn't
happen that often.

Good luck with your PAR research.

Paul

I just copy them straight over, file by file. Takes a while, but it's not me doing it, it's the computer.

--
The cost of living hasn't affected its popularity.

On Sat, 04 Feb 2017 17:46:13 -0000, Char Jackson wrote:

On Sat, 04 Feb 2017 16:04:38 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2017 23:17:44 -0000, Char Jackson wrote:

Clones have the advantage when you want to be able to replace a failed
drive by plugging in the clone, then boot and be on your way. That's
extremely comforting and I fully understand why you want that.

Images have the advantage in that a single drive, if it's big enough,
can hold lots of images, and any of those images can later be burned to
an empty drive, thus creating a 'clone' that's current as of the date
that the image was created.

Clones are more convenient and less efficient.
Images are more efficient and less convenient.
Take your pick, or choose a mix of both.

Whether you go with clones or images, it's easy to reach in and pull out
specific files, so that's a wash.

I want the convenience of clones. And I can't find software (free) that will do that.

Here are a few that are known to work well.

Macrium Reflect Free http://www.macrium.com/reflectfree.aspx
Paragon https://www.paragon-software.com/home/br-free/
EaseUS http://www.easeus.com/disk-copy/index.htm

Easeus was what I used before. It stopped working when I got a drive of a different sector size.

Apparently they've now made a version that will do it, but although it says free when you download it, it then changes to "trial" when you install it.

--
How much deeper would the ocean be if sponges didn't grow in it?

On Sat, 04 Feb 2017 18:33:23 -0000, Mayayana wrote:

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote

You really need to do some research and not
just expect software to do it all for you.

I can do it myself with xxcopy in a command line. If the software isn't better than that, it's useless.

If you're
trying to clone to USB sticks that might not work.

No.

If you just mean a USB-connected hard disk, that
should work.

Yes. 256GB SSD mirror and 3TB HDD mirror to 3TB HDD USB.

But you don't clone to a partition.
You clone to free space, which has no sector size.

It does. There's a physical parameter of the drive which recently changed from 512 to 4096 or something like that. Most cloning software can't handle that.

Cloning means copying the entire partition, bit for
bit, to another location and/or disk. (Usually it's
cloning for whole disks and copying for partitions,
but it boils down to the same thing.)

I know. I've done it since about 1995.

| The trouble with image files, is you rely on having the software there to
read the file. And a corruption can lose the whole thing.

Disk images are for OS backup. You get it all
set up, install the software, then make a disk
image. Then your backup only needs to be
data files that have changed. When you lose
Windows you restore a fresh image and put back
your data from backup. That way you never have
to slog through installing Windows again and don't
have to reinstall software. That's the point of my
analogy to a tractor trailer. With images you just
swap out the tractor and you're back on the road.
The cargo shouldn't be stored in the tractor (Data
should be on other partitions than C drive) if you
want disk imaging to be a good solution.

Too much hassle. I just backup everything every time. If the whole computer fails, I reinstall the OS, then copy things back from backup. More likely, some things got corrupted, and I just copy the damaged files back.

Some software now allows you to extract files
from images, but that's not really the point. If
you need to extract a file or two then you don't
have proper backup and, as you say, there's
little point in having the images. Constant syncing
also misses the point, as connected backup may
be destroyed when you lose Windows.

Your method of copying everything is wasteful
and clunky, but it's better backup than nothing.

The hard work is done by the computer, not me. And I can't miss anything.

Yet if you lose Windows your backup does little
to help.

The clone would, which is what I used to do. All I have to do now is reinstall. It's the data that's important. Reinstalling OS and programs is simple.

You'll still have to completely re-install
Windows and all of your software, because you
don't have disk images. If that's OK then go ahead
and use copying for backup, but there's no
point backing up Windows system or program
files.

There is, because there can be settings in there. And it's easier not to bother omitting things.

If you manage to actually do a partition
copy of C drive that's bootable then you have
pretty good backup there, though you'll still need
to back up changed files. And you don't want to keep
messing with your clone, or updating it, because
that risks corruption if the files you update it with
are corrupt. (That's another reason for disk images.
They represent a fresh install rather than yesterday's
setup.)

I used to alternate a few clones. Using an old clone with out of date everything is pointless.

I think part of the confusion is that disk utilities
have blended with backup products, creating
bloatware for people who don't know how to back
up *or* manage disk partitions. So you pay for
something like Acronis or EaseUs and end up with
an overblown system of images and synchronized
backup, which is still vulnerable to something like
a power surge. Those products do a lot of hand
holding but reduce efficiency in the process.

There is no correct way to do backup.

There are different approaches and to talk about
it you need to understand the differences. There's
also online backup.

Yeah, like I want my files under someone else's control....

I know a tech support person who
makes all his customers pay something like $70/year
for Aconite. Aconite backs up all their file changes
remotely. That's an easy solution if you don't want
to deal with the details. If Windows gets lost you
just restore from the Aconite server. It's also easy
for tech support. He doesn't have to make an emergency
visit to restore his customers Windows install. He
just runs Aconite. Maybe he can even do that remotely.
The disadvantages are cost, loss of privacy, and the
fact that you're depending on a commercial entity to
protect your data. They could go out of business and
leave you with no access. It's a solution that's mostly
just good for tech support, because they can't get
away with charging for $800 labor to restore a computer
worth $300.

--
I never wanted to believe that my Dad was stealing from his job as a road worker. But when I got home, all the signs were there.

On 1/30/17 1:13 PM, Ann Dunham wrote:
Ken Springer replied:

In the usa, in a big box store, it's Windows or Windows.

Not technically true. :-)

Best Buy has a Mac section, and sells Chromebooks, which is based on Linux.

Microcenter stores, at least the one in Denver, Colorado, USA, has a Mac
section.

Just an FYI.

Yes. I know. I didn't have the legal words to caveat out the fact that
there are Apple devices (which, of course, come with another OS) and there
are Google devices (which come with a different OS).

But if it's a "PC", it really "can" come with one of three realistic OSs:
1. Windows (usually the latest at the time of manufacture)
2. Nothing (this is what I'd prefer, personally)
3. Linux (of which there are many, but Ubuntu would likely be #1)

I wonder how many people remember that "PC" started out meaning
"Personal Computer", the OS didn't mean anything. That's the primary
way I still use PC. If I want to be specific, I say Windows. :-)

I wish X86/X64 PCs came with nothing, personally.
That would drop the cost by (I don't know) maybe 100 bucks (I don't know
what the cost of the operating system is when done this way though).

And, for the thirty-cent price of a Ubuntu Linux ISO dvd disc, I could save
that hundred bucks (or whatever) and load the Linux on there.

At this point, Linux does everything that Windows does, within reason, in
that the only thing that won't work native on Linux that you really need is
Microsoft Office. (Yes, I'm completely aware of all the office
alternatives, but you have to interact with the rest of the world also, who
uses Microsoft Office. And, yes, I'm completely aware of Windows emulation
such as Wine and Windows VMs such as VMware although I've never used them
myself).

Or, you could move on from Office formats and use the PDF format. Then,
for the most part, it doesn't matter what word processor, spreadsheet,
etc., that you use. Access would be a hiccup unless you are just
sharing reports.

Granted, there will be times when Office is needed, but it's no longer a
given if you are willing to move forward and change.


So, I would just like to save my hundred bucks and install Linux off a
thirty-cent disc, and I'd have a perfectly good operating system, without
all that Windows 10 touchscreen crapware just making a mess of things.

One thing I'm considering for this, is a visit to a local pawn shop.
Personally, I don't need to own a brand new machine.

PS: I probably should not have said the above in this ng, so, please don't
respond viscously. I apologize in advance for my hatred of the Windows 10
menus.



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 49.0.1
Thunderbird 45.7.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote

| But you don't clone to a partition.
| You clone to free space, which has no sector size.
|
| It does. There's a physical parameter of the drive which recently changed
from 512 to 4096 or something like that. Most cloning software can't
handle that.
|

I see what you're saying. I've never run into that
before. (I only use external drives occasionally,
never for disk work, and just hook up an IDE/SATA
via adapter when I do. I bought the adapter
mainly for helping others, but it's occasionally
handy to do mass file backup to extra hard disks
for good measure.)
It seems your USB case is the problem. I have a
Sabrent IDE/SATA adapter. Pretty cheap. But I don't
know whether that would solve the problem. I wonder
if it's a USB limitation. Or use the method that I think
Paul suggested: Run SATA and power connectors
outside the case to hook up directly. That would be
faster, too.
There are also "hot swap" carriages. I've
never actually used one, but I once knew a programmer
who used them to switch OSs. Apparently he'd just
pull out one encased disk from a special 5.25 bay
fitting and slide in another, during reboot. There are
also all sorts of cheap plastic cases that one could
use to protect a hard disk for use with external
SATA connections. (I know that because I recently
built a new box for someone else and accidentally
ordered an SSD as a card instead of a mountable case.
I had to find something I could screw the card to in
order to mount it in a drive bay. It turned out
Microcenter had a whole section of such things.
Some are just cheap plastic and very adaptable.)

| Disk images are for OS backup. You get it all
| set up, install the software, then make a disk
| image. Then your backup only needs to be
| data files that have changed.

| Too much hassle. I just backup everything every time. If the whole
computer fails, I reinstall the OS, then copy things back from backup. More
likely, some things got corrupted, and I just copy the damaged files back.
|

It sounds to me like you're creating your own
hassle, with a cloning strategy that simply doesn't
work and a backup strategy of just mass file
copying. But, to each their own. At least you've
got external copies of your files.

On Sat, 4 Feb 2017 19:23:01 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:


I wonder how many people remember that "PC" started out meaning
"Personal Computer", the OS didn't mean anything. That's the primary
way I still use PC. If I want to be specific, I say Windows. :-)



That's what "PC" has *always* meant to me. Does it mean something
different to some people now? What?

On Sun, 05 Feb 2017 07:27:53 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Sat, 4 Feb 2017 19:23:01 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:


I wonder how many people remember that "PC" started out meaning
"Personal Computer", the OS didn't mean anything. That's the primary
way I still use PC. If I want to be specific, I say Windows. :-)



That's what "PC" has *always* meant to me. Does it mean something
different to some people now? What?

Before the Personal Computer PC was already used to mean Police
Constable and Politically Correct

Steve

--
Neural Network Software for Windows http://www.npsnn.com

On Sun, 05 Feb 2017 14:24:38 -0000, Mayayana wrote:

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote

| But you don't clone to a partition.
| You clone to free space, which has no sector size.
|
| It does. There's a physical parameter of the drive which recently changed
from 512 to 4096 or something like that. Most cloning software can't
handle that.
|

I see what you're saying. I've never run into that
before. (I only use external drives occasionally,
never for disk work, and just hook up an IDE/SATA
via adapter when I do. I bought the adapter
mainly for helping others, but it's occasionally
handy to do mass file backup to extra hard disks
for good measure.)
It seems your USB case is the problem. I have a
Sabrent IDE/SATA adapter. Pretty cheap. But I don't
know whether that would solve the problem. I wonder
if it's a USB limitation. Or use the method that I think
Paul suggested: Run SATA and power connectors
outside the case to hook up directly. That would be
faster, too.

I think actually it's my system SSD that's different. It's 256GB, and the backup disk (aswell as the main D: drive internally) are 3TB. I think the 3TB ones have the larger sector size. All the drives were bought around the same time.

There are also "hot swap" carriages. I've
never actually used one, but I once knew a programmer
who used them to switch OSs. Apparently he'd just
pull out one encased disk from a special 5.25 bay
fitting and slide in another, during reboot.

I used to use those, can't remember what for. I think it was backup. And when a colleague saw it he bought one for dual booting linux and windows.

There are
also all sorts of cheap plastic cases that one could
use to protect a hard disk for use with external
SATA connections. (I know that because I recently
built a new box for someone else and accidentally
ordered an SSD as a card instead of a mountable case.
I had to find something I could screw the card to in
order to mount it in a drive bay. It turned out
Microcenter had a whole section of such things.
Some are just cheap plastic and very adaptable.)

I tried that once. I've never managed to get a drive to be detected on ESATA. Presumably ESATA is not the same electrically as SATA. I bought an ESATA to SATA cable, and the drive was not seen, even though the ESATA socket was on the same controller as the internal SATA sockets which detected the drive fine.

| Disk images are for OS backup. You get it all
| set up, install the software, then make a disk
| image. Then your backup only needs to be
| data files that have changed.

| Too much hassle. I just backup everything every time. If the whole
computer fails, I reinstall the OS, then copy things back from backup. More
likely, some things got corrupted, and I just copy the damaged files back.

It sounds to me like you're creating your own
hassle, with a cloning strategy that simply doesn't
work and a backup strategy of just mass file
copying. But, to each their own. At least you've
got external copies of your files.

Restoring is seldom done. All I want is a guarantee that everything is there if I need it. A clone was simplest, it was fast and I could theoretically insert the backup drive in place of the system drive if everything went tits up. I could also access it and retrieve odd files from it I'd corrupted or deleted by mistake.

--
Circular Definition: see Definition, Circular.