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#16
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Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
John Hasler wrote:
Andy Burns writes: I'm not clear why an oscillator would be "open" to the atmosphere, whereas a barometer would need to be. They weren't open. They were sealed, and most likely contained either a vacuum or a specific gas. However, helium diffuses through everything at an astounding rate, and something about these particular parts made them especially susceptible to small amounts of helium. It probably changed the velocity of sound inside the device just enough to screw it up. Other brands of oscillator might also have been affected but if they merely shifted off frequency a bit no one would have noticed. It's also possible that these oscillators didn't stop either, but shifted frequency enough to cause the operating system to become alarmed and/or confused. They're passivated with polysilicon on top. (There is mention of a 1000C annealing process.) And a thin coating of polymer over that. I was looking to see if it had a breather hole for pressure equalization, but it doesn't appear to have that. The dimensions of the device mean not a lot of material can be dedicated to a hermetic seal. It's like a speck of pepper, and the internal part might be the item at the bottom of this picture. 1.5 mm x 0.8 mm CSP 0.6 mm max height 0.3mm ball diameter (four electrical contacts) https://m.eet.com/images/eetimes/201...ime_MEMS_1.png Paul |
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#17
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Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Paul wrote:
John Hasler wrote: Andy Burns writes: I'm not clear why an oscillator would be "open" to the atmosphere They were sealed, and most likely contained either a vacuum or a specific gas.Â* However, helium diffuses through everything at an astounding rate They're passivated with polysilicon on top. (There is mention of a 1000C annealing process.) And a thin coating of polymer over that. Anyone would think crystal oscillators were hard to make :-P https://youtu.be/b--FKHCFjOM |
#18
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Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Andy Burns wrote:
Paul wrote: John Hasler wrote: Andy Burns writes: I'm not clear why an oscillator would be "open" to the atmosphere They were sealed, and most likely contained either a vacuum or a specific gas. However, helium diffuses through everything at an astounding rate They're passivated with polysilicon on top. (There is mention of a 1000C annealing process.) And a thin coating of polymer over that. Anyone would think crystal oscillators were hard to make :-P https://youtu.be/b--FKHCFjOM But are they really certain the frequency is correct ? Maybe they should check it one... more... time... :-) ******* And that was like, an elfen safety horror movie. Did you spot all the naughty things they did ? Doing Xray diffraction/crystallography with a fluoroscope ? Yikes. No pension benefits needed for that person. Of course, they also used to have shoe Xray machines in department stores. But this was back in the era when they didn't know any better. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe-fitting_fluoroscope Paul |
#19
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Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 01 Nov 2018 09:30:13 -0400, nospam wrote: In article , Paul wrote: there are seals for liquid incursion, so if you do drop it in the toilet (which *is* surprisingly common), it will not fail. there is no reason to seal a phone against helium. Besides, its almost impossible. For practical purposes helium is the ultimate leak-test fluid. I very much doubt that any phone would survive being dropped in liquid He. |
#20
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Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Paul writes:
They're passivated with polysilicon on top. (There is mention of a 1000C annealing process.) And a thin coating of polymer over that. Helium would go right through that. I was looking to see if it had a breather hole for pressure equalization, but it doesn't appear to have that. Neither necessary nor desireable. -- John Hasler Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI USA |
#21
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Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
Andy Burns writes:
Anyone would think crystal oscillators were hard to make :-P Quartz crystals are too big, and you can't simply scale them down. -- John Hasler Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI USA |
#22
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Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
On 11/2/18 1:20 AM, Paul wrote:
Andy Burns wrote: Paul wrote: John Hasler wrote: Andy Burns writes: I'm not clear why an oscillator would be "open" to the atmosphere They were sealed, and most likely contained either a vacuum or a specific gas.Â* However, helium diffuses through everything at an astounding rate They're passivated with polysilicon on top. (There is mention of a 1000C annealing process.) And a thin coating of polymer over that. Anyone would think crystal oscillators were hard to make :-P https://youtu.be/b--FKHCFjOM But are they really certain the frequency is correct ? Maybe they should check it one... more... time... :-) ******* And that was like, an elfen safety horror movie. Did you spot all the naughty things they did ? Doing Xray diffraction/crystallography with a fluoroscope ? Yikes. No pension benefits needed for that person. Of course, they also used to have shoe Xray machines in department stores. But this was back in the era when they didn't know any better. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe-fitting_fluoroscope Â*Â* Paul Well I was too young in the 1940s to know that wiggling my toes inside my new shoes was anything but fun watching them on the fluoroscope. Some adult always switched it off before I had seen enough. bliss -- bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com |
#23
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Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
On 2018-11-02, Chris wrote:
Eric Stevens wrote: On Thu, 01 Nov 2018 09:30:13 -0400, nospam wrote: In article , Paul wrote: there are seals for liquid incursion, so if you do drop it in the toilet (which *is* surprisingly common), it will not fail. there is no reason to seal a phone against helium. Besides, its almost impossible. For practical purposes helium is the ultimate leak-test fluid. I very much doubt that any phone would survive being dropped in liquid He. A gas is also a fluid. |
#24
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Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
On 2018-11-02, Andy Burns wrote:
Paul wrote: John Hasler wrote: Andy Burns writes: I'm not clear why an oscillator would be "open" to the atmosphere They were sealed, and most likely contained either a vacuum or a specific gas.Â* However, helium diffuses through everything at an astounding rate They're passivated with polysilicon on top. (There is mention of a 1000C annealing process.) And a thin coating of polymer over that. Anyone would think crystal oscillators were hard to make :-P They are hard to make very very small. https://youtu.be/b--FKHCFjOM |
#25
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Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
On 02/11/2018 12:51, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
On 11/2/18 1:20 AM, Paul wrote: But this was back in the era when they didn't know any better. Back in the days when they knew better ITYM Current Elfin Safety on radiation is probably about 1000 times overcautious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe-fitting_fluoroscope Â*Â*Â* Paul Â*Â*Â*Â*Well I was too young in the 1940s to know that wiggling my toes inside my new shoes was anything but fun watching them on the fluoroscope.Â* Some adult always switched it off before I had seen enough. Indeed. I had a cat scan last month. Probably enough radiation to set every alarm bell ringing in a nuclear power station. Certainly more than a year living in Fukushima or Chernobyl exclusions zones. https://xkcd.com/radiation/ -- The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with what it actually is. |
#26
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Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
On 02/11/2018 20:31, Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-11-02 15:47, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 02/11/2018 12:51, Bobbie Sellers wrote: On 11/2/18 1:20 AM, Paul wrote: But this was back in the era when they didn't know any better. Back in the days when they knew better ITYM Current Elfin Safety on radiation is probably about 1000 times overcautious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe-fitting_fluoroscope Â*Â*Â* Paul Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Well I was too young in the 1940s to know that wiggling my toes inside my new shoes was anything but fun watching them on the fluoroscope.Â* Some adult always switched it off before I had seen enough. Indeed. I had a cat scan last month. Probably enough radiation to set every alarm bell ringing in a nuclear power station. Certainly more than a year living in Fukushima or Chernobyl exclusions zones. https://xkcd.com/radiation/ CAT machines use sensors, not film, hence don't require nearly as much radiation as film needed. But I don't know how much less, sorry. That link says how much they generate. more . TONS more. Because they take a complete picture of your insides which is seconds of radiation. 10mSv says this article https://www.radiologyinfo.org/en/inf...pg=safety-xray Now if you look at Fukushima exclusion, that’s at around 2mSv/year Well below background on e.g. Dartmoor UK (up to 10msV/yr) or indeed Ramsar in Iran (up to 200msV/yr) If I can find this out so too could you have done. Best, -- It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled. Mark Twain |
#27
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Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
On Fri, 2 Nov 2018 08:42:27 -0000 (UTC), Chris
wrote: Eric Stevens wrote: On Thu, 01 Nov 2018 09:30:13 -0400, nospam wrote: In article , Paul wrote: there are seals for liquid incursion, so if you do drop it in the toilet (which *is* surprisingly common), it will not fail. there is no reason to seal a phone against helium. Besides, its almost impossible. For practical purposes helium is the ultimate leak-test fluid. I very much doubt that any phone would survive being dropped in liquid He. I wasn't suggesting that! :-) Many years ago I used to be involved in vacuum-insulated pressure vessels - like a large thermos bottle. It's very difficult to get absolutely leak-proof welds in steel and the way the vacuum jackets on the vessels were tested was by filling them with helium gas. We would then go round with sniffers looking for traces of leaks. Hydrogen is the only thing better able to find leaks than helium. Under the right circumstances, hydrogen can even permeate its way through solid steel. -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#28
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Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 10:06:47 +0100 (CET), Nomen Nescio
wrote: In article Nomen Nescio wrote: After serious thinking John Hasler wrote : Andy Burns writes: I'm not clear why an oscillator would be "open" to the atmosphere, whereas a barometer would need to be. They weren't open. They were sealed, and most likely contained either a vacuum or a specific gas. However, helium diffuses through everything at an astounding rate, and something about these particular parts made them especially susceptible to small amounts of helium. It probably changed the velocity of sound inside the device just enough to screw it up. Other brands of oscillator might also have been affected but if they merely shifted off frequency a bit no one would have noticed. It's also possible that these oscillators didn't stop either, but shifted frequency enough to cause the operating system to become alarmed and/or confused. I wonder how many Apple people have followed their bad oscillator apps off a cliff so far? This brings up an idea for a new hack. Get in front of a self driving car and open up a helium bottle. helium rises... Helium plumbate? -- Regards, Eric Stevens |
#29
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Here you go, Apple lovers! Eat this!
William Unruh wrote:
Nomen Nescio wrote: Why a Helium Leak Disabled Every iPhone in a Medical Facility https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/gye4aw/why-a-helium-leak-disabled-every-iphone-in-a-medical-facility That is just silly. To change the velocity of sound (which is what the chipmunk voice is due to) requires a substantial fraction of the air be Helium. Ben Kraznow's take is that it takes a 2% helium atmosphere to kill MEMS devices ... https://youtu.be/vvzWaVvB908 |
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