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On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 18:26:20 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote: In message , Ken Blake writes: On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:02:15 +0100, "NY" wrote: [] Yes, I'd pronounce "ewer" as YOU-er, whereas I'd pronounce "your", "yore" [long ago, in former times] and "Ure" [river in north Yorkshire] identically. Yes, same here. Two syllables to one. Using homonyms to define pronunciation is always a problem if people either do or don't pronounce the sample words the same, depending on accent. My parents have a dictionary which uses different phonetic symbols, with examples of their use in typical words. It uses different symbols for the (final) vowel sound in "fur", "fir" and "transfer", whereas I make no distinction between these; evidently the writers of the dictionary do. In England, it's roughly a north-south divide: in London, the leader of the city is pronounced the same as a female horse, To me, "mayor" has two syllables and "mare" has one. and the blooming part of a plant is pronounced the same as ground grain; in more northern towns and cities, these words - like your ewer - have a definite two syllables.ith a "you".) To me, both "flower" and "flour are also pronounced the same way, and both also have two syllables. I remember having a conversation years ago with a woman from North Carolina who I worked with. She kept talking about what sounded to me like "flahs." I didn't understand her and kept asking what she meant, and she got very insulted and thought I was making fun of her. But I wasn't; I really didn't understand that that was the way she pronounced "flowers." She was strongly non-rhotic and pronounced it as one syllable. |
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On 13/07/2018 18:26, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In England, it's roughly a north-south divide: in London, the leader of the city is pronounced the same as a female horse, and the blooming part of a plant is pronounced the same as ground grain; in more northern towns and cities, these words - like your ewer - have a definite two syllables. No, not at all. I was 'fraightfully' well bought up in the south of England, and to me 'mayor', 'ewer', and 'flower' are all audibly two syllables, 'mare' and 'your' certainly one, and 'flour' somewhere in between, but I'd say more one than two. |
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Java Jive wrote:
On 13/07/2018 18:26, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: In England, it's roughly a north-south divide: in London, the leader of the city is pronounced the same as a female horse, and the blooming part of a plant is pronounced the same as ground grain; in more northern towns and cities, these words - like your ewer - have a definite two syllables. No, not at all.* I was 'fraightfully' well bought up in the south of England, and to me 'mayor', 'ewer', and 'flower' are all audibly two syllables, 'mare' and 'your' certainly one, and 'flour' somewhere in between, but I'd say more one than two. I was brought up in the north of England, and I pronounce those words with exactly the syllable lengths you mention. 'mayor', 'ewer', and 'flower' are all audibly two syllables, 'mare' and 'your' certainly one, and 'flour' somewhere in between, but I'd say more one than two. Between 27 and 34 I lived and worked on the south coast in E Sussex, but I've been back up north ever since. Ed |
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In message , Java Jive
writes: On 13/07/2018 18:26, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: In England, it's roughly a north-south divide: in London, the leader of the city is pronounced the same as a female horse, and the blooming part of a plant is pronounced the same as ground grain; in more northern towns and cities, these words - like your ewer - have a definite two syllables. No, not at all. I was 'fraightfully' well bought up in the south of England, and to me 'mayor', 'ewer', and 'flower' are all audibly two syllables, 'mare' and 'your' certainly one, and 'flour' somewhere in between, but I'd say more one than two. Delighted to hear it. (And I'd agree about flour.) So the border is obviously very complex. Interesting to hear that it exists in the USA too. I was going to say maybe it's a class (or clarse, as some pronounce that word; I pronounce it to rhyme with lass) thing, but you say you were, as you put it, "fraightfully" well brought up and in the south, yet you pronounce as I do. Maybe it's (or started as) "affected" class. I think at least the areas (and perhaps classes?) where "flower" is a term of endearment - "that's all right, flower" - always pronounce it as two syllables. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf "Grammar is there to help, not hinder." -- Mark Wallace, APIHNA, 2nd December 2000 (quoted by John Flynn 2000-12-6) |
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"NY" on Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:25:01 +0100 typed in
alt.windows7.general the following: "pyotr filipivich" wrote in message .. . "Merry Mary is soon to marry." For me, merry, mary and marry have three different vowels. "My Aunt is afraid of ants." Both the same. If I had to distinguish, maybe I would length the vowel in aunt *very* slightly. "A bison is what you worsh yer face in." I might say all this in a fake Cockney accent, as spoken by Arthur Mullard, or by Warren Mitchell as Alf Garnett in Till Death Us Do Part :-) Or regional US/Australian. I read somewhere of the phrase that was taught to aspiring debutantes at "finishing school" who wanted to lose their provincial accents and acquire an RP (Received Pronunciation - BBC) accent: Pass me a glass - I want to have a bath. The implication is that all the A sounds should be long, as in "ar", but I lost it at the logic of the sentence - I've a mental image of a nubile lass trying to shrink herself so she is small enough to have a bath in a glass :-) Or "if you think I'm going to take a bath sober ... pass me a glass." I recall reading that the English language has some 2300 expressions to describe the intoxicated state. (e.G., "Tired and emotional", "a wee bit unmindful", three sheets, ****ed, and so forth) I informed by then girlfriend of this factoid, and her response was "Yes, and the Esquimoux have 32 words for 'snow'." I cracked up.) -- pyotr filipivich Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing? |
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"J. P. Gilliver (John)" on Sat, 14 Jul 2018
13:14:32 +0100 typed in alt.windows7.general the following: In message , Java Jive writes: On 13/07/2018 18:26, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: In England, it's roughly a north-south divide: in London, the leader of the city is pronounced the same as a female horse, and the blooming part of a plant is pronounced the same as ground grain; in more northern towns and cities, these words - like your ewer - have a definite two syllables. No, not at all. I was 'fraightfully' well bought up in the south of England, and to me 'mayor', 'ewer', and 'flower' are all audibly two syllables, 'mare' and 'your' certainly one, and 'flour' somewhere in between, but I'd say more one than two. Delighted to hear it. (And I'd agree about flour.) So the border is obviously very complex. Interesting to hear that it exists in the USA too. I was going to say maybe it's a class (or clarse, as some pronounce that word; I pronounce it to rhyme with lass) thing, but you say you were, as you put it, "fraightfully" well brought up and in the south, yet you pronounce as I do. Maybe it's (or started as) "affected" class. and "class" started as "regional dialect". E.G., The Kings English, because that's the dialect of London. I ran into this a bit, what Spanish I knew came with the Madrid Accent I sound "odd" to American ears. (I also recall a ferfluffle about a Spanish language 'Life of Jesus'. The settle on giving Jesus the Proper Madrid /Castilian accent, while the disciples had various "rustic" accents.) I think at least the areas (and perhaps classes?) where "flower" is a term of endearment - "that's all right, flower" - always pronounce it as two syllables. What was it Shaw wrote "It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him." (Although I like the phrasing from "My Fair Lady.") -- pyotr filipivich Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing? |
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On 7/6/2018 11:25 PM, freface wrote:
Win 7 Pro.* All updates. C:\ is full. Deleted obvious stuff but only got 200MB freed. Googled and got confused. WinSxS has 13G in the folder. Do you have an C:\Windows.Old folder? -- @~@ Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch! Live long and prosper!! / v \ Simplicity is Beauty! /( _ )\ May the Force and farces be with you! ^ ^ (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10) Linux 2.6.39.3 不借貸! 不詐騙! 不*錢! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 不求神! 請考慮綜援 (CSSA): http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_...sub_addressesa |
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"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
... In message , Java Jive writes: On 13/07/2018 18:26, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: In England, it's roughly a north-south divide: in London, the leader of the city is pronounced the same as a female horse, and the blooming part of a plant is pronounced the same as ground grain; in more northern towns and cities, these words - like your ewer - have a definite two syllables. No, not at all. I was 'fraightfully' well bought up in the south of England, and to me 'mayor', 'ewer', and 'flower' are all audibly two syllables, 'mare' and 'your' certainly one, and 'flour' somewhere in between, but I'd say more one than two. I think JJ might be referring to inner-London accents (formerly Cockney, now Estuary English), as opposed to all south-of-England accents. Delighted to hear it. (And I'd agree about flour.) So the border is obviously very complex. Interesting to hear that it exists in the USA too. I was going to say maybe it's a class (or clarse, as some pronounce that word; I pronounce it to rhyme with lass) thing, but you say you were, as you put it, "fraightfully" well brought up and in the south, yet you pronounce as I do. Maybe it's (or started as) "affected" class. I think at least the areas (and perhaps classes?) where "flower" is a term of endearment - "that's all right, flower" - always pronounce it as two syllables. Yes I always try to make a distinction between near-homonyms like flower/flour, to avoid confusion. My mum, who is from the north side of Leeds (think of an Alan Bennett accent!) leaned some strange pronunciations, probably from her social-climbing father - for example, she pronounces invalid (disabled person, as opposed to not-valid) as invaleed with a long I sound. At my infant/junior school in the same part of Leeds, which was where I grew up as well, the headmistress tried to instil in us "proper" pronunciation, and insisted on "syoot" for suit, "lunch-ee-on" instead of "lunch'n" or (heaven forbid) "lunch", and "hwite" (white) with a very definite H sound at the beginning. I think she was fighting a losing battle because most of us had normal middle-class-Leeds accents without any of her pretentious pronunciation. I remember one of my teachers, who was probably more a rebel than the others, always referred to the head as Mrs HHHHHHHHHHwhite with a very exaggerated, heavily aspirated H; even at at six I realised that she was taking the ****. :-) There is nothing funnier than a person who is trying (and failing spectacularly) to put on a more refayned accent. My other grandpa was a headmaster (with a short A, not headmarster) and spoke with an educated but unashamed West Riding (of Yorkshire) accent, and he wouldn't change it. Except in one situation, he had to... In the 1950s he was asked to give some talks on the Home Service "Children's Hour" radio programme about his pet subject: steam railways. He was told to tone down his native accent and was even given some elocution lessons. Caught between the devil and the deep blue sea (he wouldn't willing change his accent but realised that he might otherwise lose the chance to appear on The Wireless) he treated the lessons with the contempt that they deserved, and hammed it up and over-acted terribly. How do I know? Because they gave him a recording, on a shellac-on-aluminium 78 rpm record, of one of his talks. The timbre of his voice is recognisable, as is the occasional moment when his real accent shows through, but otherwise he sounds like Bob Danvers-Walker (who voiced a lot of the post-war newsreels) or Harry Enfield's character Mr Chomondley-Warner. At one point in his talk he says "and by now the smoke is coming out of the chimney like a bullet from a gun" - except he pronounces it "the smaoke is caming aout of the chimney laike a ballit fram a gan". I remember he had me in stitches when he first played me the recording when I was a child. He described the elocution teacher as "a reet wazzock" - which is not a compliment :-) |
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In message , Java Jive
writes On 10/07/2018 12:41, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: Kohl is also charcoal - I think it is even used in English in that sense in the context of (especially stage) make-up. So I would imagine Kohlschreiber is more likely to mean pencil or crayon than cabbagewriter (-: Aw, now you've gone an ruined a perfectly good joke! I understand that many Belgians (and Dutch) have silly names. A Belgian works colleague (whose surname was Pannekoeke (Pancake) (the aforementioned Berliner Pfannkuche in German?) told me that this dates back to the days of Spanish occupation. Other Belgians with silly names I came across were Pee and Vlug (Quick). When stopped and asked for their names, the locals would often give something false and comical, Their oppressors (of course) didn't know any better - but the names stuck. -- Ian |
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"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
... In message , Java Jive writes On 10/07/2018 12:41, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: Kohl is also charcoal - I think it is even used in English in that sense in the context of (especially stage) make-up. So I would imagine Kohlschreiber is more likely to mean pencil or crayon than cabbagewriter (-: Aw, now you've gone an ruined a perfectly good joke! I understand that many Belgians (and Dutch) have silly names. A Belgian works colleague (whose surname was Pannekoeke (Pancake) (the aforementioned Berliner Pfannkuche in German?) told me that this dates back to the days of Spanish occupation. Other Belgians with silly names I came across were Pee and Vlug (Quick). When stopped and asked for their names, the locals would often give something false and comical, Their oppressors (of course) didn't know any better - but the names stuck. That is similar to the situation with place names in the UK. Apparently when the Ordnance Survey surveyors came round to small rural communities and asked "what's that hill called?" or "what's that valley called", the locals, who were probably being asked these questions in the pub after consuming many pints, responded with made-up ribald names. It is alleged that near Todmorden (stress on first and third syllables) in West Yorkshire (or Lancashire - it's changed sides a few times over the years) there are features marked on a map which have names ****en Clough and ****ten Clough (a clough - pronounced cluff - is a ravine). Kudos to anyone who finds these on a map (current or historical) because I can't. |
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On 14/07/2018 19:51, NY wrote:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message ... In message , Java Jive writes: On 13/07/2018 18:26, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: In England, it's roughly a north-south divide: in London, the leader of the city is pronounced the same as a female horse, and the blooming part of a plant is pronounced the same as ground grain; in more northern towns and cities, these words - like your ewer - have a definite two syllables. No, not at all.* I was 'fraightfully' well bought up in the south of England, and to me 'mayor', 'ewer', and 'flower' are all audibly two syllables, 'mare' and 'your' certainly one, and 'flour' somewhere in between, but I'd say more one than two. I think JJ might be referring to inner-London accents (formerly Cockney, now Estuary English), as opposed to all south-of-England accents. No, you've completely misunderstood me - I mean that I was brought up in what was then termed, and perhaps still is now however much I may dislike such stereotyping, an upper-middle class family, with minor aristocratic connections. I went to a 'good' school and learnt to speak 'The Queen's English' which the BBC would call 'Received Pronunciation' or RP. However, in my middle to late teens I refused to go back to that school, which I hated, and instead went to what we'd now call a 6th form college in SE London, and that was when my accent, not to mention vernacular vocabulary, started to diversify! My accent now has smatterings of RP, Scots both because my mother's family were from up here and I now live here, SE 'Lunnon', and almost everywhere else that I've lived, such as 'Brissol', Cambridge, etc. However, the words we were discussing, I still pronounce essentially the same way as I was brought up to do, just, hopefully, in a more everyday and less noticeably upper class twittish sort of way. Thus I was refuting J P Gilliver's assertion that in the south mayor = mare, etc. There are noticeable differences between northern and southern accents, but I never met anyone who pronounces 'mayor' as 'mare'. There may well be such people, but I've lived around a good few places around the south, and cannot recall hearing this, so I doubt if it can be very common. Delighted to hear it. (And I'd agree about flour.) So the border is obviously very complex. Interesting to hear that it exists in the USA too. I was going to say maybe it's a class (or clarse, as some pronounce that word; I pronounce it to rhyme with lass) thing, but you say you were, as you put it, "fraightfully" well brought up and in the south, yet you pronounce as I do. Maybe it's (or started as) "affected" class. I think at least the areas (and perhaps classes?) where "flower" is a term of endearment - "that's all right, flower" - always pronounce it as two syllables. There is nothing funnier than a person who is trying (and failing spectacularly) to put on a more refayned accent. Or the other way around ... My mother, like some other Scots people, had the unconscious habit of mimicking those they were talking to. Once my stepfather's star research graduate rang up, and although she never spoke his name, I could tell immediately from her unconscious mimicry of him exactly who it was - he was from India - and I was sent out of the room because I near fell off my chair laughing. And also ... http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Re...s/Accents.html |
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On 14/07/2018 23:01, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Java Jive Aw, now you've gone an' ruined a perfectly good joke! I understand that many Belgians (and Dutch) have silly names. A Belgian works colleague (whose surname was Pannekoeke (Pancake) (the aforementioned Berliner Pfannkuche in German?) told me that this dates back to the days of Spanish occupation. Other Belgians with silly names I came across were Pee and Vlug (Quick). When stopped and asked for their names, the locals would often give something false and comical, Their oppressors (of course) didn't know any better -* but the names stuck. Likewise when Gaelic was banned in Ireland and Scotland. The Clancy Brothers & Tommy Makem used to perform this, and used to say when introducing it: "It wasn't written so much as to show the great love between the Irish and the Jews, as much as it was to show the stupidity of the British!" ... http://www.irishsongs.com/lyrics.php...ew&Song_id=245 (BTW, IIRC Briscoe mentioned in the song was a Jewish Lord Mayor of Dublin.) |
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"NY" on Sun, 15 Jul 2018 12:21:27 +0100 typed in
alt.windows7.general the following: "Ian Jackson" wrote in message ... In message , Java Jive writes On 10/07/2018 12:41, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote: Kohl is also charcoal - I think it is even used in English in that sense in the context of (especially stage) make-up. So I would imagine Kohlschreiber is more likely to mean pencil or crayon than cabbagewriter (-: Aw, now you've gone an ruined a perfectly good joke! I understand that many Belgians (and Dutch) have silly names. A Belgian works colleague (whose surname was Pannekoeke (Pancake) (the aforementioned Berliner Pfannkuche in German?) told me that this dates back to the days of Spanish occupation. Other Belgians with silly names I came across were Pee and Vlug (Quick). When stopped and asked for their names, the locals would often give something false and comical, Their oppressors (of course) didn't know any better - but the names stuck. That is similar to the situation with place names in the UK. Apparently when the Ordnance Survey surveyors came round to small rural communities and asked "what's that hill called?" or "what's that valley called", the locals, who were probably being asked these questions in the pub after consuming many pints, responded with made-up ribald names. It is alleged that near Todmorden (stress on first and third syllables) in West Yorkshire (or Lancashire - it's changed sides a few times over the years) there are features marked on a map which have names ****en Clough and ****ten Clough (a clough - pronounced cluff - is a ravine). Flucked Again Lake - supposedly the sanitized version of the surveyors notes as they came over the ridge and were "flucked again" by the lake being where they needed to make their measurements. Kudos to anyone who finds these on a map (current or historical) because I can't. -- pyotr filipivich Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing? |
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Java Jive on Mon, 9 Jul 2018 18:05:15 +0100
typed in alt.windows7.general the following: On 09/07/2018 17:32, NY wrote: My basic O-level German So how does Michaela Kirkgasser's name translate? I thought that perhaps kirk was church, as in lowland scots, but online translaters recognise neither that nor gasser. One thing to keep in mind - the name as it is, may or may not have gotten "fixed" at some point. A perfectly good "German Name" gets written down in English and nobody pays attention till later, if at all. I Knew a guy who's cousin was Fritz Mondale - the VP candidate. When their families came to the US and bought farms, Mr Mundale's name was spelled "Mondale". Easier to adopt the "official" spelling. Much as Dad's buddy who took flak from his father for entering Seminary "to avoid the draft". "No Frimoth ever evaded military service!" "That's right! Grandpa wasn't a Frimoth when he left Denmark to avoid the Danish draft." {sf/x: rimshot!} tschus pyotr -- pyotr filipivich Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing? |
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