A Windows XP help forum. PCbanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » PCbanter forum » Microsoft Windows 7 » Windows 7 Forum
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crash involving pedestrian



 
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #91  
Old March 23rd 18, 06:00 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crash involvingpedestrian

pyotr filipivich wrote:
"Mayayana" on Wed, 21 Mar 2018 22:38:16
-0400 typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
"Char Jackson" wrote
...

Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtTB8hTgHbM

Driver looking down. There was a second or two that
an actual driver would have at least slammed on
the brakes. They might not have ben able to avoid
hitting the woman, but they wouldn't have hit her
at 38 mph.


So what Uber has is not so much an "autonomous car" (Which can be
told "to the office" and it drives there) as an "enhanced autopilot
system" where the 'driver' still has to man the driver seat, prepared
at all times to resume actual operation of the vehicle.
I'll wait for the full "Johnny Cab" option.


Some of the companies involved, want a revenue stream
while they perfect the technology.

Engineering is hard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma...dge_%281940%29

As engineers (even electricals get to see the movie), we're shown
video of the Tacoma bridge disaster. Just as a reminder of how
conservative we have to be, when lives are on the line. Seeing
the Tacoma bridge movie, is as much about ethics, as about
bridge design.

Practice, practice, practice!

The next one will be perfect.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/21...m-highway.html

We had a small structure here, built by the city, where the
concrete pour was bad, materials not checked properly by
onsite supervisors, and the entire structure had to be
ripped down and started again. Nobody hurt. Just a waste of
money. Everything in life seems to be a "learning experience" :-/
It's as if we never learn anything.

Paul
Ads
  #92  
Old March 23rd 18, 06:12 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general
Gene Wirchenko[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 496
Default Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crash involving pedestrian

On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 10:46:56 -0400, Wolf K
wrote:

On 2018-03-22 22:19, Mayayana wrote:
"Wolf K" wrote

| Of course, she shouldn't have been crossing the road.
|

What if it were a moose? It might be the
moose at fault but that won't help the mashed
passengers in the robocar.

Jaywalking is not an excuse for hitting and
killing someone while not looking where you're
going.



Moose are almost impossible to see at night. Relevant anecdote:

Driving back from Edson, Alberta. Fall, about 7pm, early evening, rain.
On-coming traffic. IOW, pitch black out there. Doing under 50mph.
Suddenly,a a moose-shaped shadow blots out the lights of oncoming cars.
By the time I recognise it, it's crossed the road. A couple or three
seconds difference between a very scary sight and a lethal collision.

Had the whole family in the car, too. I occasionally wake up dreaming
about it. That was over 50 years ago.


Have you ever noticed that, of all the animals on road signs,
only deer look like lunatics? And they seem to act that way, too. I
was in the B.C. Rockies and a deer decided to cross the highway in
front of us. It could not have done a much better job of attempting
suicide. We just missed the deer and were the only car in possibly
miles on that highway. Its dancing about made it especially
"exciting".

At least a moose would keep on a fairly predictable path, I
think. (Do they?)

Sincerely,

Gene Wircheko
  #93  
Old March 23rd 18, 06:15 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general
Gene Wirchenko[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 496
Default Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crash involving pedestrian

On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 17:40:34 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 11:57:30 -0700, Gene Wirchenko
wrote:


[snip]

In British Columbia (and probably some other places), snow can
stick to signs to the point where the signs can not be read.


And?? If you're suggesting that snow-covered signs are a problem that
needs to be addressed, whether for humans or non-humans, we'll just have
to agree to disagree. I've seen a lot of snow-covered signs, and tree-
covered signs, and just plain missing signs, and so far none of those
situations has made it difficult to figure out what I should do. There


Not yet, but it has been close sometimes. I grant that I will
tend rate close calls as more dangerous than they actually are. This
is to balance out not thinking something is dangerous when it actually
is. I would rather be concerned about a close call and what I can do
about situations like it in the future than to ignore it.

are always other contextual clues, if you look for them.


The point being that you do have to look for those clues. I do,
you do, but does the self-driving car do so?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
  #94  
Old March 23rd 18, 06:17 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general
Gene Wirchenko[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 496
Default Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crash involving pedestrian

On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 22:06:24 -0400, Wolf K
wrote:

On 2018-03-22 14:57, Gene Wirchenko wrote:


[snip]

In British Columbia (and probably some other places), snow can
stick to signs to the point where the signs can not be read.


Yeah, we see that here in NorOnt, too. Doesn't bother us. We know what
the shapes mean...

Hah!

:-)


We also have windy areas where the signs are designed to rotate
with the wind (or they could be bent or blown off). Occasionally, I
have seen signs nearly horizontal in the wind: a bit tough to read.

So many exceptional cases.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
  #95  
Old March 23rd 18, 06:22 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crash involving pedestrian

In message , Char Jackson
writes:
On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 15:49:56 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Char Jackson
writes:
On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 19:30:43 -0400, Paul wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:


If you have time to use the horn, you have time to avoid the accident.
It's not about being timid or aggressive or any of that hogwash.

What if there's a driver right on your rear bumper, there's no place to
back up to get away from a wild driver in front of you.

Slow down. Change lanes, if possible. Problem solved.


Two lanes of traffic. I'm in the faster one. There isn't an even-faster
one I can move into, nor any gap in the slower one I consider it would
be safe to move into.

Some idiot in the same lane as me has come up fairly close behind me.

Someone in the slower lane, but ahead of me, starts to pull out in front
of me, with sufficient combinations of relative speeds and positions
that _I_ deduce that, if I do nothing, I will hit him. If I brake, the
idiot behind will run into me. (Never mind that it would be his "fault",
I'd rather that didn't happen.)


Here's where we disagree. The "idiot behind" (now who's being
insulting?)

If someone's tailgating me, and I'm not going any slower than the
vehicle in front (just maintaining a larger distance), then I don't
think too highly of his intelligence.
can most likely see the car pulling out in front of you and
will typically proactively slow down in anticipation of you slowing
down. Even if they are oblivious to what's happening ahead of you, they
aren't likely to be oblivious to you slowing down. Unless this is the
very first time the "idiot behind" has decided to tailgate someone, he's
probably very aware that following closely will mean that he has to
brake suddenly from time to time.


1. I'm not convinced.
2. I'd rather not bank on it _not_ being his first time - or, that he's
intelligent enough to think ahead that far. There _are_ idiots out
there.

Perhaps the person pulling out hasn't seen me - I'm in his blind spot,
or something; or, perhaps, he's just not paying attention.

I honk. He notices me, and stops pulling out. Yes, it's not foolproof by
any means; certainly he has to decide that it's him I'm honking at. But
on the whole, someone undertaking such a manoeuvre is IMO more likely to
think it's him I'm honking at than the drivers of the other vehicles
around me who are maintaining lane and speed.

Longer term, yes, I would diddle my brakelights to tell the person
behind that I feel they are too close. But (ignoring the fact that they
probably wouldn't pull back anyway), that wouldn't help the situation
described - where using the horn has _some_ chance of averting an
accident, and not doing so has IMO less chance.

Yes, you can drive defensively, read situations before they happen,
and take measures. But once in a while, it's just "the enemy in
front of you" and a brick wall behind. And at that point,
it's horn time.


(In my case it was the barrier to the side and the idiot behind rather
than a brick wall, but yes.)

If I understand correctly, you sometimes use your horn to make yourself
feel better, not to actually accomplish anything useful with regards to
traffic conditions. It seems like you could find something more
productive.

You did not understand Paul correctly, and the above paragraph is rather
insulting.


In what way do you think I misunderstood what Paul said? I thought he
was pretty clear. He sometimes uses his horn because it makes him feel
better. I'm sure he's not the only one.

I didn't read anything Paul said that I could interpret as meaning that.
YM obviously does V.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Veni, Vidi, Vera (I came, I saw, we'll meet again) - Mik from S+AS Limited
), 1998
  #96  
Old March 23rd 18, 06:25 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crash involving pedestrian

In message , Gene Wirchenko
writes:
[]
We also have windy areas where the signs are designed to rotate
with the wind (or they could be bent or blown off). Occasionally, I
have seen signs nearly horizontal in the wind: a bit tough to read.

So many exceptional cases.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko


If it's that windy, should you be out driving anyway (-:?

(Whether you're a human or otherwise!)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Veni, Vidi, Vera (I came, I saw, we'll meet again) - Mik from S+AS Limited
), 1998
  #97  
Old March 23rd 18, 06:29 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general
Gene Wirchenko[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 496
Default Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crash involving pedestrian

On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 18:35:48 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

[snip]

Here in the US, especially in smaller towns, as you approach the town
you'll be likely to see two signs. The first might say, "Welcome to
Mayberry, birthplace of Andy Griffith. Population 367." The second sign
might say, "Speed Limit 25 MPH unless otherwise posted."


That provides context for the "unless otherwise posted".

When I see such a sign with no context, what to do?

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
  #98  
Old March 23rd 18, 06:38 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crash involving pedestrian

In message , Paul
writes:
Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 3/23/2018 10:47 AM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-03-22 22:41, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

[]
If I passed a sign saying limit 25, I would assume the limit was 25
until I saw a sign saying otherwise. I would not _expect_ to see
signs repeating the 25. I do not see the need for the words "unless
otherwise posted".
[...]

What if you do not see a speed limit sign for the next 25 miles as
you drive through rural parts of the mid west and great plains.


The defaults are roughly


Presumably any sign - whether it has the words "unless otherwise posted"
- overrides the default.

I still haven't seen an answer to how you know, once you've passed an
explicit sign (with or without), that the limit has reverted to the
default (-:.

30mph 50kph City
80kph Secondary roads (two lane, no median, no shoulder)

(I take it "median" means "physical structure down the middle")
100kph 100-Class highway (i.e. Route 104)

[]
Ours (still all in MPH) a 30 in built-up areas (whatever the type of
road - unless otherwise posted!); outside built-up areas, 60 on
single-carriageway roads (two or more lanes, but nothing physical to
stop you driving on the other side), and 70 on dual carriageways. But in
practice the only ones that aren't explicitly signed are the 60 and 70,
and those _are_ sort of explicit in that there's a "national limits
apply" sign - white circle with black diagonal - on every exit from a
village or town. _Any_ other limit will be explicitly posted, at both
entrance and exit. Common ones a 20 in some residential areas (often
accompanied by speed bumps you'd not go over at above that anyway); 40
where a main road goes through a town or village; or 50 on motorway
roadworks. But these are all explicitly signed as such, at start and
end.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Veni, Vidi, Vera (I came, I saw, we'll meet again) - Mik from S+AS Limited
), 1998
  #99  
Old March 23rd 18, 06:40 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crash involving pedestrian

In message , Gene Wirchenko
writes:
On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 18:35:48 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

[snip]

Here in the US, especially in smaller towns, as you approach the town
you'll be likely to see two signs. The first might say, "Welcome to
Mayberry, birthplace of Andy Griffith. Population 367." The second sign
might say, "Speed Limit 25 MPH unless otherwise posted."


That provides context for the "unless otherwise posted".

When I see such a sign with no context, what to do?

[]
25 or less (-:

_Do_ such signs occur without such a context?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Veni, Vidi, Vera (I came, I saw, we'll meet again) - Mik from S+AS Limited
), 1998
  #100  
Old March 23rd 18, 09:10 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general
Frank Slootweg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,226
Default Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crash involving pedestrian

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:
In message , Gene Wirchenko
writes:
On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 18:35:48 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

[snip]

Here in the US, especially in smaller towns, as you approach the town
you'll be likely to see two signs. The first might say, "Welcome to
Mayberry, birthplace of Andy Griffith. Population 367." The second sign
might say, "Speed Limit 25 MPH unless otherwise posted."


That provides context for the "unless otherwise posted".

When I see such a sign with no context, what to do?

[]
25 or less (-:

_Do_ such signs occur without such a context?


Don't worry about it, John! It's just different. To us - Europeans -
it makes no sense and it doesn't save any signs, compared to 'our'
method.

I (from The Netherlands) sometimes see a bit of the same when driving
through some German towns and they *do* make me more alert, because I
think "What the fsck do they mean!". :-)
  #101  
Old March 23rd 18, 09:24 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general
Frank Slootweg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,226
Default Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crash involving pedestrian

Mayayana wrote:
[...]
I wondered whether that may have had an
effect on the Tempe police chief. His public
comment after viewing the video was that it
seemed no was was at fault. A driver kills a
woman crossing the road while paying no
attention at all to the road ahead, yet no
one is at fault! It was a ludicrous statement.


Yes, that struck me - being from the other side of the pond - as well.

In our country - The Netherlands - and probably in most of Europe, the
driver is liable by default, because the pedestrian is a 'vulnerable'
party. A vulnerable party is never *liable*. (S)He might have commited a
(traffic) *offense*, but is never liable, at least not to any large
percentage. So if the pedestrian survived, the driver could have been
liable for amounts into the millions and the pedestrian might have
gotten a fine. Since the pedestrian got killed, the amount of the
liablity would be less, but still very substantial.
  #102  
Old March 23rd 18, 10:19 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general
Lucifer Morningstar[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 368
Default Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crash involving pedestrian

On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 11:31:18 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

"Paul" wrote

| This is video from in-car. Released by the police. The player wrapper
| on the Verge seems to work, while trying the twitter one using that
| URL, didn't.
|

As I linked below, here's the original on
youtube that all these parasites are linking to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtTB8hTgHbM

| The woman hadn't just stepped off the media.
|
| She was out in the middle of the ****ing street when hit.
|

Yes. And there were almost 2 seconds of visibility.
Also, before she comes into the light there's a reflective
flash on the left, followed by visibility of her sneakers.
This wasn't an unusual situation for a human driver
to be able to stop or swerve.

This also highlights a problem with having a human in
a robot car. A driver will react in a split second. A human
in a robot car will probably take at least 1-2 seconds to
judge whether they need to take over. By then it's too late.


Driverless cars will never be legal on public roads.
The Google car crashed into a bus.
  #103  
Old March 23rd 18, 11:41 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general
pyotr filipivich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 752
Default Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crash involving pedestrian

Paul on Fri, 23 Mar 2018 13:00:55 -0400 typed
in alt.windows7.general the following:


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/21...m-highway.html

We had a small structure here, built by the city, where the
concrete pour was bad, materials not checked properly by
onsite supervisors, and the entire structure had to be
ripped down and started again. Nobody hurt. Just a waste of
money. Everything in life seems to be a "learning experience" :-/
It's as if we never learn anything.


Smart people learn from their mistakes.
Wise people, learn from other's mistakes.

And then there are "the other people".
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
  #104  
Old March 23rd 18, 11:45 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crash involving pedestrian

"Frank Slootweg" wrote

| In our country - The Netherlands - and probably in most of Europe, the
| driver is liable by default, because the pedestrian is a 'vulnerable'
| party. A vulnerable party is never *liable*. (S)He might have commited a
| (traffic) *offense*, but is never liable, at least not to any large
| percentage.

I think it's about the same here. In theory a
bicycle and a car have equal right of way, but
if a bicyclist slams into me or cuts in front of me
suddenly. I'll be the one who gets sued.

Given that, the police chief seems to be saying
that the driver in the robocar had no responsibility
as a driver but was instead just a passenger, with
no duty to watch the road. It'll be interesting to
see how it pans out.


  #105  
Old March 23rd 18, 11:49 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.windows7.general
Keith Nuttle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,844
Default Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crashinvolving pedestrian

On 3/23/2018 5:00 PM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-03-23 13:12, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 10:46:56 -0400, Wolf K
wrote:

On 2018-03-22 22:19, Mayayana wrote:
"Wolf K" wrote

| Of course, she shouldn't have been crossing the road.
|

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* What if it were a moose? It might be the
moose at fault but that won't help the mashed
passengers in the robocar.

Â*Â*Â* Jaywalking is not an excuse for hitting and
killing someone while not looking where you're
going.



Moose are almost impossible to see at night. Relevant anecdote:

Driving back from Edson, Alberta. Fall, about 7pm, early evening, rain.
On-coming traffic. IOW, pitch black out there. Doing under 50mph.
Suddenly,a a moose-shaped shadow blots out the lights of oncoming cars.
By the time I recognise it, it's crossed the road. A couple or three
seconds difference between a very scary sight and a lethal collision.

Had the whole family in the car, too. I occasionally wake up dreaming
about it. That wasÂ* over 50 years ago.


Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Have you ever noticed that, of all the animals on road signs,
only deer look like lunatics?Â* And they seem to act that way, too.Â* I
was in the B.C. Rockies and a deer decided to cross the highway in
front of us.Â* It could not have done a much better job of attempting
suicide.Â* We just missed the deer and were the only car in possibly
miles on that highway.Â* Its dancing about made it especially
"exciting".

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* At least a moose would keep on a fairly predictable path, I
think.Â* (Do they?)

Sincerely,

Gene Wircheko


Moose go where they want, when they want. They ignore just about
everything else. They do seem to have learned when it's hunting season,
though: I stopped to take a photo of one munching on something in a
roadside patch of swamp, by the time I'd stopped the car and started
backing up, it had disappeared.


Deer are similar, Here one minute, not here the next. Standing by the
side of the road one minute, and a second later standing in front of
your car.


--
2018: The year we learn to play the great game of Euchre
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off






All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 PCbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.