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#1
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Replacing thermal paste
Old computer, chapter 37.
I wanted to fill you in to how it's going, and ask some questions at the end here. I didn't do this earlier because things were piled on my Dell Optiplex 755 (iirc) including the laptop I am using, plugged in to various things. . But I've noticed that the computer will repeatedly run for 24 hours, including playing web radio and video, but some specific actions, opening Settings for example, makes the computer crash, and I'm thinking if each time it loads windows into the same parts of the RAM, maybe the exact same parts, whatever code is loaded to the bad part is what makes it crash, so it crashes from the same set of actions of mine. ???? I tried Prime and it crashed within 5 or 10 seconds. So I finally started testing the memory by removing parts of it. It has 4 2gig sticks in 4 slots. I removed two of them Unfortunately I removed sticks 3 and 4 and it wouldn't start. I'd forgotten what I knew 5 or 10 or 15 years ago. So I put back the one that had been in a white stick holder and removed the other one that was in a black stick holder, leaving sticks 1 and 3, both white. The computer crashed the first two time before fully loading windows, probably beforfe the PIN. So I took out the 2 sticks and put the other 2, that had been in 2 and 4, into instead 1 and 3. Again crashed quickly the first two times. . So neither pair of sticks seems good. Maybe I have two bad sticks, one per pair, and I will test one stick at a time if it will run that way, but I figured I didn't have 2 bad sticks and I put aside testing for that, ----- Because the computer crashes often even before I can put in the PIN and if not that, often before windows fully loads, I've figured it can't overheat that quickly if the thermal cement is at all good, so that means it's not the thermal paste. Fair conclusion???? ----- So then I went to replace the fan, something I tried years ago but I couldn't get the old fan out. I removed 2 screws holding on a cover and I gradually lifted up the cover, only to find it was attached to the CPU cooling fins. So I don't know if the thermal paste was in bad shape before or if I ruined it. I have a little syringe of Artic Silver 5 thermal paste. It's 5 or 10 or 15 years old, stored in a cool basement. I squeezed a bit out and it looks and seems the same as I remember it, grey, even colored, nice looking, like toothpaste but thicker. Too old??????? "The correct amount of thermal paste, which is roughly the size of a pea or a grain of rice." I think a pea is twice as big as a grain of rice!! unless they mean a cooked grain of rice but a pea is still. 50% bigger. ????? The online directions say not to let it squeeze out beyond the edge of the CPU. But because of the heat sink, I can't see if that has happened. What to do? |
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#2
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Replacing thermal paste
micky wrote:
Old computer, chapter 37. I wanted to fill you in to how it's going, and ask some questions at the end here. I didn't do this earlier because things were piled on my Dell Optiplex 755 (iirc) including the laptop I am using, plugged in to various things. . But I've noticed that the computer will repeatedly run for 24 hours, including playing web radio and video, but some specific actions, opening Settings for example, makes the computer crash, and I'm thinking if each time it loads windows into the same parts of the RAM, maybe the exact same parts, whatever code is loaded to the bad part is what makes it crash, so it crashes from the same set of actions of mine. ???? I tried Prime and it crashed within 5 or 10 seconds. So I finally started testing the memory by removing parts of it. It has 4 2gig sticks in 4 slots. I removed two of them Unfortunately I removed sticks 3 and 4 and it wouldn't start. I'd forgotten what I knew 5 or 10 or 15 years ago. So I put back the one that had been in a white stick holder and removed the other one that was in a black stick holder, leaving sticks 1 and 3, both white. The computer crashed the first two time before fully loading windows, probably beforfe the PIN. So I took out the 2 sticks and put the other 2, that had been in 2 and 4, into instead 1 and 3. Again crashed quickly the first two times. . So neither pair of sticks seems good. Maybe I have two bad sticks, one per pair, and I will test one stick at a time if it will run that way, but I figured I didn't have 2 bad sticks and I put aside testing for that, ----- Because the computer crashes often even before I can put in the PIN and if not that, often before windows fully loads, I've figured it can't overheat that quickly if the thermal cement is at all good, so that means it's not the thermal paste. Fair conclusion???? ----- So then I went to replace the fan, something I tried years ago but I couldn't get the old fan out. I removed 2 screws holding on a cover and I gradually lifted up the cover, only to find it was attached to the CPU cooling fins. So I don't know if the thermal paste was in bad shape before or if I ruined it. I have a little syringe of Artic Silver 5 thermal paste. It's 5 or 10 or 15 years old, stored in a cool basement. I squeezed a bit out and it looks and seems the same as I remember it, grey, even colored, nice looking, like toothpaste but thicker. Too old??????? "The correct amount of thermal paste, which is roughly the size of a pea or a grain of rice." I think a pea is twice as big as a grain of rice!! unless they mean a cooked grain of rice but a pea is still. 50% bigger. ????? The online directions say not to let it squeeze out beyond the edge of the CPU. But because of the heat sink, I can't see if that has happened. What to do? Make sure all power is disconnected before starting work. 1) Wipe off paste on CPU and heatsink. 2) Put half-a-grain of thermal paste, and squash heatsink into it. Pull heatsink off again. Note diameter of "splotch". Since you did not put enough on (on purpose), the splotch should be smaller than the size needed to do the job. In your head, work out how much bigger the grain would have to be, for the splotch to fill out to the edge of the heatsink. Then, add a tiny bit more, so that the "edge" will be wetted. You need wetting, not because it helps the thing work, but because it allows step (4) to work. 3) Wipe heatsink and CPU clean again. Apply calibrated amount. Fasten heatsink with the same pressure as in (2). 4) Now, hold an inspection mirror to the *side* of the stack. I have that little dental mirror thing on a 45 degree angle, for inspections. You should be able to see the color of the paste that is wetting the area between the heatsink and CPU. It should wet the gap enough, to see the color, but without oozing out all over the place. Usually, you can feel by the texture while compressing the sink, whether there's way too much on there. To make it ooze out, you need oozing-force. When I first started applying paste, I was using the credit card method. But I couldn't really get good controlled results, because sometimes the spread material was a little too thick and it oozed out. Using the "grain-in-the-center-and-then-squash", cut down on some of the more annoying aspects of application. The above instructions are for typical Arctic Silver. There is one thermal paste material that is like "dry bread dough". It's miserable stuff. The squash technique won't work. You'll have to Google up an application method for that, if that happened to be all that came with a heatsink. I won't say the stuff is "crap", but it is a trifle consumer-unfriendly. Part of the TP business is making products that make your customers happy. Intel makes some stuff that "melts and flows" and that can't be easily reworked if you wanted to reuse it. Maybe if you were adept with a blow torch, you could fiddle with it, but I don't know how flammable it is. My practice here is to remove it after it's been used once, and replace with AS (whatever is lying around). I think I have a second tube here somewhere. I got a lot of mileage out of my syringe of AS3. Maybe it separates a bit with age (so the first little bit from the nozzle isn't uniform), but it's otherwise good. No complaints. By the way, I experiences a miracle the other day. I opened an old can of house paint, and the paint was in *perfect* condition. Oil based. No skin! Too bad we can't buy that paint any more. There's only a half cup left in the can. The paint is 15 years old (I write the date on each can). ******* The Q45 has Intel Management Engine. You're supposed to populate at least one particular RAM slot, so that the Management engine has some RAM to work with. Even though the Management engine on refurbs is (supposed to be) neutered. Later setups, the Management Engine RAM became even more flexible, such that sticks could be plugged in any order and it would all work properly. But some of the earlier Q chipsets, the RAM method was static and one slot would then be "blessed" with the duty of supporting Management Engine. Using that slot if necessary, test the sticks of RAM one at a time, to make it easier to weed out the stinkier sticks. If you can manage to find two good ones, test them in single channel mode. Apparently the BIOS screen can announce what RAM mode it detected, so if you need a way to verify mode, you can try the BIOS screen. A single stick would be single channel mode too. Just as you can place two sticks in the same channel and it is still single channel mode. | | Vet sticks one at a time stick XXX This is a single channel mode | | XXX XXX | | Single channel mode stick XXX (part of thorough memtest method) | | (swap the two sticks, to swap "high" and "low") stick XXX (swapping the sticks, tests the E810 locations) | | Dual channel mode stick stick (when error shows, which stick is bad???) | | (dual channel mode does not test E810 XXX XXX reserved addresses...) Paul |
#3
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Replacing thermal paste
On Wed, 09 Sep 2020 06:07:13 -0400, micky
wrote: So then I went to replace the fan, something I tried years ago but I couldn't get the old fan out. I removed 2 screws holding on a cover and I gradually lifted up the cover, only to find it was attached to the CPU cooling fins. So I don't know if the thermal paste was in bad shape before or if I ruined it. Always listen to Paul, because he knows all the stuff we've forgotten and all the stuff that we never knew. But I'll tell you my experience that was caused by a past problem.Just like yours actually so I won't bother you with the details but it turns out that when I'd attached the fan during an upgrade a few months ago I'd disturbed the paste and it was contiguous across the cpu surface. Never got this wrong before, in 30+ years of assembling PCs. Determined that I wasn't going to repeat the experience I applied the paste to the cpu (credit card method) and also to the fan (also cc method). Don't know if any squeezed out because it's impossible to see the join with the fan in place and I never thought to fetch the dental mirror that I have upstairs. No problems since though. |
#4
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Replacing thermal paste
In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Wed, 09 Sep 2020 19:01:36 +0100, Peter
Johnson wrote: On Wed, 09 Sep 2020 06:07:13 -0400, micky wrote: So then I went to replace the fan, something I tried years ago but I couldn't get the old fan out. I removed 2 screws holding on a cover and I gradually lifted up the cover, only to find it was attached to the CPU cooling fins. So I don't know if the thermal paste was in bad shape before or if I ruined it. Always listen to Paul, because he knows all the stuff we've forgotten and all the stuff that we never knew. But I'll tell you my experience that was caused by a past problem.Just like yours actually so I won't bother you with the details but it turns out that when I'd attached the fan during an upgrade a few months ago I'd disturbed the paste and it was contiguous across the cpu surface. Never got this wrong before, in 30+ years of assembling PCs. Determined that I wasn't going to repeat the experience I applied the paste to the cpu (credit card method) and also to the fan (also cc method). Don't know if any squeezed out because it's impossible to see the join with the fan in place and I never thought to fetch the dental mirror that I have upstairs. No problems since though. Just FTR, my fan is not mounted on the CPU. It's a 3" fan that sits in front of the CPU, (in a black plastic frame. I still can't figure out what holds it in). But I understood everything you said. Thanks and thanks, Paul. When I get the heat sink back on I'll test one stick at a time. |
#5
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Replacing thermal paste
In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Wed, 09 Sep 2020 06:07:13 -0400, micky
wrote: Old computer, chapter 37. I wanted to fill you in to how it's going, and ask some questions at the end here. I didn't do this earlier because things were piled on my Dell Optiplex 755 (iirc) including the laptop I am using, plugged in to various things. . But I've noticed that the computer will repeatedly run for 24 hours, including playing web radio and video, but some specific actions, opening Settings for example, makes the computer crash, and I'm thinking if each time it loads windows into the same parts of the RAM, maybe the exact same parts, whatever code is loaded to the bad part is what makes it crash, so it crashes from the same set of actions of mine. ???? I tried Prime and it crashed within 5 or 10 seconds. So I finally started testing the memory by removing parts of it. It has 4 2gig sticks in 4 slots. I removed two of them Unfortunately I removed sticks 3 and 4 and it wouldn't start. I'd forgotten what I knew 5 or 10 or 15 years ago. So I put back the one that had been in a white stick holder and removed the other one that was in a black stick holder, leaving sticks 1 and 3, both white. The computer crashed the first two time before fully loading windows, probably beforfe the PIN. So I took out the 2 sticks and put the other 2, that had been in 2 and 4, into instead 1 and 3. Again crashed quickly the first two times. . So neither pair of sticks seems good. Maybe I have two bad sticks, one per pair, and I will test one stick at a time if it will run that way, but I figured I didn't have 2 bad sticks and I put aside testing for that, ----- Because the computer crashes often even before I can put in the PIN and if not that, often before windows fully loads, I've figured it can't overheat that quickly if the thermal cement is at all good, so that means it's not the thermal paste. Fair conclusion???? ----- So then I went to replace the fan, something I tried years ago but I couldn't get the old fan out. I removed 2 screws holding on a cover and I gradually lifted up the cover, only to find it was attached to the CPU cooling fins. So I don't know if the thermal paste was in bad shape before or if I ruined it. I have a little syringe of Artic Silver 5 thermal paste. It's 5 or 10 or 15 years old, stored in a cool basement. I squeezed a bit out and it looks and seems the same as I remember it, grey, even colored, nice looking, like toothpaste but thicker. Too old??????? "The correct amount of thermal paste, which is roughly the size of a pea or a grain of rice." I think a pea is twice as big as a grain of rice!! unless they mean a cooked grain of rice but a pea is still. 50% bigger. ????? The online directions say not to let it squeeze out beyond the edge of the CPU. But because of the heat sink, I can't see if that has happened. What to do? This is only for discussion. My plan hasn't change and that is to do it the way Paul suggested and two earlier webpages had said that the dot was the best way (and one or two said the credit card was a bad way). But while I was googling, I found the Artic Silver page. Surely they should know. They have different instructions for different processors and I spent 2 days trying to find out what I had in my Dell Optiplexx 755. I couldn't find out but I read the page anyhow. Even if I knew if I had an i5 or i7, I woudln't know what generation I have.(although further down I figured it out.) Do people keep track of their generation? http://www.arcticsilver.com/intel_ap...n_method.html# What 's most ilnteresting is that the dot method is the he 2nd least often recommended, maybe tied with surface spread. Least often is the horizontal line, and most often, that is for the most differenct processors is vertical line. Aha, I did find my processor, Core 2 Duo, which is only listed under Previous Generations and since it's not a laptop (all of which as far as I noticed have Surface Spread recommeded), it's got Vertical Line recmmended. They have 8 pages about Vertical Line. I'm sure that 7 pages are the same but still, that 1 page makes the difference. So why doesn't Artic Silver sagree with the others. (Even for vertical line, they suggest the credit card for "tinting" the heatsink and metal cap!!!) So I"m reading about Vertical Line, http://www.arcticsilver.com/pdf/appm..._line_v1.1.pdf don't know what the others say, but picture QP4 is related to the paste going over the edge. "Applying Thermal Compound:With the triangle mark on the substrate pointing down and to the left," In the picture it's very little. It also says "Once the heatsink is properly mounted, grasp the heatsink and very gently twist it slightly clockwise and counterclockwise one time each if possible (Just one or two degrees or so if possible). " but an unrelate set of instructions said not to twist it. Air bubbles. And it must be hard to twist only 1 or 2 degrees " Please note that some heatsinks cannot be twisted once mounted" Mine can't so I no longer have to think about this. The break-in period for Arctic Silver 5 is 200 hours. !!!!! Can be 400+ hours, but doesn't say when. Here are the instructions for the center dot. Like the other 3 methods, at the start of the pdf, they list what cpus should use it, and I think they are all old. "the middle dot method is applicable with any thermal compound used with the following CPU: Pentium® 4 Or Legacy Single Core with Metal Cap Celeron® D or Legacy Single Core with Metal Cap Xeon® Series: Legacy Core with Metal Cap" http://www.arcticsilver.com/pdf/appm...e_dot_v1.1.pdf |
#6
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Replacing thermal paste
micky wrote:
In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Wed, 09 Sep 2020 06:07:13 -0400, micky wrote: Old computer, chapter 37. I wanted to fill you in to how it's going, and ask some questions at the end here. I didn't do this earlier because things were piled on my Dell Optiplex 755 (iirc) including the laptop I am using, plugged in to various things. . But I've noticed that the computer will repeatedly run for 24 hours, including playing web radio and video, but some specific actions, opening Settings for example, makes the computer crash, and I'm thinking if each time it loads windows into the same parts of the RAM, maybe the exact same parts, whatever code is loaded to the bad part is what makes it crash, so it crashes from the same set of actions of mine. ???? I tried Prime and it crashed within 5 or 10 seconds. So I finally started testing the memory by removing parts of it. It has 4 2gig sticks in 4 slots. I removed two of them Unfortunately I removed sticks 3 and 4 and it wouldn't start. I'd forgotten what I knew 5 or 10 or 15 years ago. So I put back the one that had been in a white stick holder and removed the other one that was in a black stick holder, leaving sticks 1 and 3, both white. The computer crashed the first two time before fully loading windows, probably beforfe the PIN. So I took out the 2 sticks and put the other 2, that had been in 2 and 4, into instead 1 and 3. Again crashed quickly the first two times. . So neither pair of sticks seems good. Maybe I have two bad sticks, one per pair, and I will test one stick at a time if it will run that way, but I figured I didn't have 2 bad sticks and I put aside testing for that, ----- Because the computer crashes often even before I can put in the PIN and if not that, often before windows fully loads, I've figured it can't overheat that quickly if the thermal cement is at all good, so that means it's not the thermal paste. Fair conclusion???? ----- So then I went to replace the fan, something I tried years ago but I couldn't get the old fan out. I removed 2 screws holding on a cover and I gradually lifted up the cover, only to find it was attached to the CPU cooling fins. So I don't know if the thermal paste was in bad shape before or if I ruined it. I have a little syringe of Artic Silver 5 thermal paste. It's 5 or 10 or 15 years old, stored in a cool basement. I squeezed a bit out and it looks and seems the same as I remember it, grey, even colored, nice looking, like toothpaste but thicker. Too old??????? "The correct amount of thermal paste, which is roughly the size of a pea or a grain of rice." I think a pea is twice as big as a grain of rice!! unless they mean a cooked grain of rice but a pea is still. 50% bigger. ????? The online directions say not to let it squeeze out beyond the edge of the CPU. But because of the heat sink, I can't see if that has happened. What to do? This is only for discussion. My plan hasn't change and that is to do it the way Paul suggested and two earlier webpages had said that the dot was the best way (and one or two said the credit card was a bad way). But while I was googling, I found the Artic Silver page. Surely they should know. They have different instructions for different processors and I spent 2 days trying to find out what I had in my Dell Optiplexx 755. I couldn't find out but I read the page anyhow. Even if I knew if I had an i5 or i7, I woudln't know what generation I have.(although further down I figured it out.) Do people keep track of their generation? http://www.arcticsilver.com/intel_ap...n_method.html# What 's most ilnteresting is that the dot method is the he 2nd least often recommended, maybe tied with surface spread. Least often is the horizontal line, and most often, that is for the most differenct processors is vertical line. Aha, I did find my processor, Core 2 Duo, which is only listed under Previous Generations and since it's not a laptop (all of which as far as I noticed have Surface Spread recommeded), it's got Vertical Line recmmended. They have 8 pages about Vertical Line. I'm sure that 7 pages are the same but still, that 1 page makes the difference. So why doesn't Artic Silver sagree with the others. (Even for vertical line, they suggest the credit card for "tinting" the heatsink and metal cap!!!) So I"m reading about Vertical Line, http://www.arcticsilver.com/pdf/appm..._line_v1.1.pdf don't know what the others say, but picture QP4 is related to the paste going over the edge. "Applying Thermal Compound:With the triangle mark on the substrate pointing down and to the left," In the picture it's very little. It also says "Once the heatsink is properly mounted, grasp the heatsink and very gently twist it slightly clockwise and counterclockwise one time each if possible (Just one or two degrees or so if possible). " but an unrelate set of instructions said not to twist it. Air bubbles. And it must be hard to twist only 1 or 2 degrees " Please note that some heatsinks cannot be twisted once mounted" Mine can't so I no longer have to think about this. The break-in period for Arctic Silver 5 is 200 hours. !!!!! Can be 400+ hours, but doesn't say when. Here are the instructions for the center dot. Like the other 3 methods, at the start of the pdf, they list what cpus should use it, and I think they are all old. "the middle dot method is applicable with any thermal compound used with the following CPU: Pentium® 4 Or Legacy Single Core with Metal Cap Celeron® D or Legacy Single Core with Metal Cap Xeon® Series: Legacy Core with Metal Cap" http://www.arcticsilver.com/pdf/appm...e_dot_v1.1.pdf I'll have to say their method is imaginative. You can tint a heatsink with a credit card, as the heatsink is milled flat. No attempt is made to shape a heatsink as such. Tinting the heatsink is when no material of any kind was applied, and you want to make sure that any material that goes in voids, is a ceramic particle (boron nitride etc). The Core2 Duo uses a compressive cap which is soldered in place. If you turn the CPU upside down, slice around the outside edge so there is no additional material to hold it in place, then heat the cpu until the low-temperature solder between the lid and the silicon die releases, you would hear a "pop" sound and the lid falls on the floor. The CPU being upside-down and suspended in your work vice so the lid can fall away when heated. The "pop" could imply a bit of stress being released. The lid could have fallen away almost silently if no stresses were being relieved. I've never seen any information on how Intel puts the lid on, so can't conclude much from what happens there. Notice that the cap is not perfectly flat. The cap is symmetric, in the sense that it's square, and as far as I know, the pre-stress pattern is a circle within that square. That would apply to a single die Core2 duo at least. A Core2 quad consisted of two Core2 duo placed inside the same CPU package. The two chips share an FSB as if they were on a dual socket Pentium motherboard of long ago. They take turns being bus master or whatever. One processor listens to what the other processor is doing, and "cache coherency protocol" ensures both processors know where cache lines are stored, which cache line needs to be evicted on a particular operation and so on. Sharing an FSB results in some performance loss (cache coherency costs you, and when done on the FSB like that, is not free). Now, perhaps the pre-stress pattern is different on a quad, but I don't own any quads to know that. The photos in Google aren't conclusive - you can see there is a reflection off the "edges" implying some sort of slight curvature. The dot will still work. The dot should spread out in some pattern when you squash it. https://5.imimg.com/data5/VC/UA/MY-1...or-500x500.png Heat transfer works best, if the entire heat-spreader surface is engaged. Placing a line along the axis of the two dies of a quad, that ensures the area above the two dies has paste, but it does not guarantee the spreading pattern. You still have to look at the squash pattern and figure out for yourself, how to compensate for the pattern you see. If any direction does *not* have wide spreading, that implies more material must be placed along that axis to get it to spread. If the surface is curved, then the areas where the paste is thicker won't cool as well. The paste will be thin where most of the mechanical pressure is resting. The purpose of paste is to exclude air voids, *not* make Oreo cookies. For example, if you use gallium liquid metal as a TIM, the layer can be very thin since that one involves no suspension of solids in a carrier. Areas where the paste is thicker, won't contribute as much to the cooling process. They will have a slightly higher thermal resistance. But it's better to have that material present, than to have an air gap. Putting a curved CPU together dry, would be a disaster (small single-point-of-contact). But you still want to encourage good cooling over the entire surface. If the lid is symmetric about the central point, then a dot gives a good pattern with respect to that detail. If the lid isn't symmetric about the central axis, then use your best judgment. Doing the squash test is meant to "inform you" about what the best pattern might be. If you saw an ellipse, you'd say to yourself "golly, what does this mean???". Newer processors vary in terms of internal TIM solution. Some processors use cookie dough inside, and the lid on those can be dead-flat because the lid does not need to be prestressed with cookie dough. Cookie dough has voids, and both companies have made processors where the material choice inside (Poppin Fresh) kinda sucks. Intel switched away from soldering because the low temperature solder was a "conflict mineral", perhaps some part mined in the Congo or something. But once enthusiasts started complaining about the usage of Poppin Fresh, they've alternated from time to time with solder or dough. And each requires a different solution for the lid, as perhaps prestressing is required as some part of designing for mechanical stresses on top of the CPU. Intel are geniuses at engineering for stress (unlike some heatsink companies where the arms holding the cooler, snap on them). Haswell might have been a departure point for lid fastening, since the FIVR power regulator was under the lid with the CPU. After Haswell, they got rid of FIVR, so it was a short term dalliance. Your CPU comes before Haswell, has just silicon underneath, and is most likely to have a soldered lid. The solder melts at a lower temperature than tin/lead. The lid may have a curvature, and not be as mirror-flat as a modern CPU where Poppin Fresh was used instead of solder. I got my practices partially by reading those docs. I didn't ignore them. They've re-written them a couple times. Paul |
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