Win7 support:

Robert in CA wrote:
On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 12:21:36 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
Robert in CA wrote:

I don't think I have a Win7 Disk?

This is on my Patriot Key:

https://postimg.cc/hXM3bjJF

Windows 7 repair disk 10-17-13

https://postimg.cc/jLjrpGzr

Win 7 Pro Master

https://postimg.cc/CZ00Qd7c

Could I just use my present HD and clone the
blank spare via USB connection?

Robert
If you have a copy of Windows 7 with your
"preferred setup", you could clone that over.

That would include a C: partition small enough
to suit your purposes. If the C: partition on
such a disk was 1.8TB in size, that would be
a little bit on the big side.

It's always possible to change partition
sizes in Macrium, when cloning over a disk,
so you can make changes. But Macrium is not
the "perfect" partition management tool, and while
you can achieve a desired effect with it, it
isn't always that simple to do it. You can drag
and drop partitions, resize the partitions one
at a time while doing so, and "build" a disk image.
And then you might have to boot repair it before
using it. As an example.

But if you're happy with one of your Windows disk setups
as is, you can always just clone that over and use it.

*******

Using Windows Disk Management, you can shrink a
100GB partition to 50GB. That's about it.

If you had 30GB of data on a 1.8TB partition, and
used Macrium to clone it, you can use the alignment/size
dialog when setting up the transfer, to reduce the size
of C: . You could shrink (in Macrium), the partition
down to around, say, 35GB. Macrium is not limited in
the same way as Disk Management is. During cloning, it
can move the metadata out of the way, that blocks
Disk Management from making larger changes than it makes.

Paul



It's getting too confusing,..

I gave you pictures of images of all that
I had on disk and the flash drive which I
thought may be Win 7 but you didn't comment
on any of them or the possibility of using
my present HD to clone the blank HD. I believe
that is the way we did it before.

So if that's possible then lets just use my present
HD and paritions.

Robert

So can I use my present HD to create a clone
via USB?

Robert

You showed me some installer discs. That's not what I
had in mind.

The most direct method requires a little work
with the "Custom Install option. So I suggested this method.

Clean Install:

+-----+-----------------------------------------------------+
| MBR | New Seagate, data partition |
+-----+-----------------------------------------------------+

Remove Seagate partition, use Windows 10 DVD
to create a partition of desired size.

+-----+-----------------+--------------------+--------------+
| MBR | system reserved | C: partition 80GB | Unallocated |
+-----+-----------------+--------------------+--------------+
(created by (Defined by you, by
installer) "Custom" install)

*******

The other option, not requiring Custom install, starts with an
existing 2TB drive. You don't need to clone the "Backups"
partition, just the first two would do

Source hard drive (to be cloned via Macrium)
+-----+-----------------+----------------+-------------------+
| MBR | system reserved |W7 C: partition | Backups 1.8TB |
+-----+-----------------+----------------+-------------------+

Destination disk (the new Seagate), ends up like this.
(We use the W7 C: to do a W10-over-W7 install...)
+-----+-----------------+----------------+-------------------+
| MBR | system reserved |W7 C: partition | unallocated |
+-----+-----------------+----------------+-------------------+

Now, boot the destination disk by itself, insert the Win10 DVD
and execute "setup.exe" off the Win10 DVD. After lots of whirring
and grinding, the destination disk looks like this.

Destination disk (the new Seagate), becomes
+-----+-----------------+----------------+-------------------+
| MBR | system reserved |W10 C: partition| unallocated |
+-----+-----------------+----------------+-------------------+

And by doing it this way, your default programs are there on C: .
The added work, is cloning with Macrium.

HTH,
Paul

lished the "digital entitlement"
to "up"grade them to 10 in the future.

As such, by far the easiest way to restore them to 7 is to use the image
or clone you'd made - not install 7 from scratch, which is what you'd
need a 7 disk for.

Or have you, during your various activities, lost the images (or clones)
you made?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Tact is the ability to describe others as they see themselves. -Abraham


That was my point,. I don't
want to have to install Win
7 Pro from the beginning. The
whole point of creating all
of this was to make this easier.


Robert

In message ,
Robert in CA writes:
lished the "digital entitlement"
to "up"grade them to 10 in the future.

As such, by far the easiest way to restore them to 7 is to use the image
or clone you'd made - not install 7 from scratch, which is what you'd
need a 7 disk for.

Or have you, during your various activities, lost the images (or clones)
you made?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Tact is the ability to describe others as they see themselves. -Abraham


That was my point,. I don't
want to have to install Win
7 Pro from the beginning. The
whole point of creating all
of this was to make this easier.


Robert


So, I repeat: have you lost the images or clones you made? (Maybe
because you hadn't enough spare HDs?)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

.... the pleasure of the mind is an amazing thing. My life has been driven by
the satisfaction of curiosity. - Jeremy Paxman (being interviewed by Anne
Widdecombe), Radio Times, 2-8 July 2011.

On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 5:59:26 PM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
Robert in CA wrote:
On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 12:21:36 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
Robert in CA wrote:

I don't think I have a Win7 Disk?

This is on my Patriot Key:

https://postimg.cc/hXM3bjJF

Windows 7 repair disk 10-17-13

https://postimg.cc/jLjrpGzr

Win 7 Pro Master

https://postimg.cc/CZ00Qd7c

Could I just use my present HD and clone the
blank spare via USB connection?

Robert
If you have a copy of Windows 7 with your
"preferred setup", you could clone that over.

That would include a C: partition small enough
to suit your purposes. If the C: partition on
such a disk was 1.8TB in size, that would be
a little bit on the big side.

It's always possible to change partition
sizes in Macrium, when cloning over a disk,
so you can make changes. But Macrium is not
the "perfect" partition management tool, and while
you can achieve a desired effect with it, it
isn't always that simple to do it. You can drag
and drop partitions, resize the partitions one
at a time while doing so, and "build" a disk image.
And then you might have to boot repair it before
using it. As an example.

But if you're happy with one of your Windows disk setups
as is, you can always just clone that over and use it.

*******

Using Windows Disk Management, you can shrink a
100GB partition to 50GB. That's about it.

If you had 30GB of data on a 1.8TB partition, and
used Macrium to clone it, you can use the alignment/size
dialog when setting up the transfer, to reduce the size
of C: . You could shrink (in Macrium), the partition
down to around, say, 35GB. Macrium is not limited in
the same way as Disk Management is. During cloning, it
can move the metadata out of the way, that blocks
Disk Management from making larger changes than it makes.

Paul



It's getting too confusing,..

I gave you pictures of images of all that
I had on disk and the flash drive which I
thought may be Win 7 but you didn't comment
on any of them or the possibility of using
my present HD to clone the blank HD. I believe
that is the way we did it before.

So if that's possible then lets just use my present
HD and paritions.

Robert

So can I use my present HD to create a clone
via USB?

Robert

You showed me some installer discs. That's not what I
had in mind.

The most direct method requires a little work
with the "Custom Install option. So I suggested this method.

Clean Install:

+-----+-----------------------------------------------------+
| MBR | New Seagate, data partition |
+-----+-----------------------------------------------------+

Remove Seagate partition, use Windows 10 DVD
to create a partition of desired size.

+-----+-----------------+--------------------+--------------+
| MBR | system reserved | C: partition 80GB | Unallocated |
+-----+-----------------+--------------------+--------------+
(created by (Defined by you, by
installer) "Custom" install)

*******

The other option, not requiring Custom install, starts with an
existing 2TB drive. You don't need to clone the "Backups"
partition, just the first two would do

Source hard drive (to be cloned via Macrium)
+-----+-----------------+----------------+-------------------+
| MBR | system reserved |W7 C: partition | Backups 1.8TB |
+-----+-----------------+----------------+-------------------+

Destination disk (the new Seagate), ends up like this.
(We use the W7 C: to do a W10-over-W7 install...)
+-----+-----------------+----------------+-------------------+
| MBR | system reserved |W7 C: partition | unallocated |
+-----+-----------------+----------------+-------------------+

Now, boot the destination disk by itself, insert the Win10 DVD
and execute "setup.exe" off the Win10 DVD. After lots of whirring
and grinding, the destination disk looks like this.

Destination disk (the new Seagate), becomes
+-----+-----------------+----------------+-------------------+
| MBR | system reserved |W10 C: partition| unallocated |
+-----+-----------------+----------------+-------------------+

And by doing it this way, your default programs are there on C: .
The added work, is cloning with Macrium.

HTH,
Paul

So I

1) Clone an existing Win7 disk to the new blank disk, using Macrium.
2) Boot Windows 7, with *only* the new disk drive
present in the machine.
3) Insert the Windows 10 DVD disc.
4) Run setup.exe off the Windows 10 DVD.
It installs over Windows 7, keeping your programs and data.


I know you want me to do customizing but every
time we start talking about it it gets confusing
and you say Macrium isn't the best for this.

Should I just follow 1-4 like I did for the 780?

Robert

So I

1) Clone an existing Win7 disk to the new blank disk, using Macrium.
2) Boot Windows 7, with *only* the new disk drive
present in the machine.
3) Insert the Windows 10 DVD disc.
4) Run setup.exe off the Windows 10 DVD.
It installs over Windows 7, keeping your programs and data.


I know you want me to do customizing but every
time we start talking about it it gets confusing
and you say Macrium isn't the best for this.

Should I just follow 1-4 like I did for the 780?

Robert



During partitioning with Macrium do I
still reduce free space by zero? If
not please tell me what I should set
it at?

Thanks
Robert

During partitioning with Macrium do I
still reduce free space by zero? If
not please tell me what I should set
it at?

Thanks
Robert

I forgot to add the pic:

https://postimg.cc/xXfZSHy6

Robert in CA wrote:
During partitioning with Macrium do I
still reduce free space by zero? If
not please tell me what I should set
it at?

Thanks
Robert

I forgot to add the pic:

https://postimg.cc/xXfZSHy6

I don't know exactly what you've done there.

The value of 34.6GB is a bit tight for Windows 10,
only in the sense that the 1903 installer is doing
a poorer job of calculating its needs than some
of the earlier releases. I had one install attempt
that was "ruined", in that the OS was not able to
prepare a pagefile properly on its final reboot
and it conked out. I gave it a bit more space,
and it succeeded on a second attempt (this is one
reason for having backups and the like, for easy
do-overs). I've had some previous Windows 10, that
accepted the challenge of small C: partition and
handled it by dialing down the hiberfile and pagefile sizes.

A starting value of 80GB could be shrunk to 40GB
later, as an example.

Windows might need:

10GB for the current installed OS (yours is 6.84GB in the picture)
20GB for Windows.old
Memory * 1 for pagefile (4GB RAM = 4GB pagefile)
Memory times 0.75 for hiberfile (4GB RAM = 3GB hiberfile)
That would be 37GB approximately.

You can see that it's very close to working with
what you're showing me - then it's a question of
"would you be annoyed if it failed on such a tight install".

So an OS partition of 40GB would work, for a "maintenance"
OS that doesn't have a lot of user files stored in it.

You might want the partition to be a tiny bit bigger.

When I select a value of 80GB, that's to ensure "first time success"
on my test machine here. I can shrink it down later, if
I'm feeling brave.

There are some free partition management programs, but
like Macrium, they're chock full of controls and
more like flying a 747 than a Piper Cub. You can
do more disk editing with those, than you can
easily do with Macrium. But even so, the partition
managers can be very annoying at times (they do
a reboot and offline resize, they don't tell you
what they're doing, or whether they're having
trouble and so on).

I think it's too bad, in 2019, that some of these
necessary functions aren't built into the OS.

Summary: Based on that one picture, that looks a bit
tight. I would not make that smaller, that's for sure.

Since your new hard drive makes this "safe" to do,
if you want to give it a stab at that size, all
a failed install would do, is waste your time.
While you're installing, the source drive will be
disconnected, and just the new drive will be in the
computer. So if the new drive doesn't boot properly,
none of your other assets are affected by it.

Paul

I don't know exactly what you've done there.

The value of 34.6GB is a bit tight for Windows 10,
only in the sense that the 1903 installer is doing
a poorer job of calculating its needs than some
of the earlier releases. I had one install attempt
that was "ruined", in that the OS was not able to
prepare a pagefile properly on its final reboot
and it conked out. I gave it a bit more space,
and it succeeded on a second attempt (this is one
reason for having backups and the like, for easy
do-overs). I've had some previous Windows 10, that
accepted the challenge of small C: partition and
handled it by dialing down the hiberfile and pagefile sizes.

A starting value of 80GB could be shrunk to 40GB
later, as an example.

Windows might need:

10GB for the current installed OS (yours is 6.84GB in the picture)
20GB for Windows.old
Memory * 1 for pagefile (4GB RAM = 4GB pagefile)
Memory times 0.75 for hiberfile (4GB RAM = 3GB hiberfile)
That would be 37GB approximately.

You can see that it's very close to working with
what you're showing me - then it's a question of
"would you be annoyed if it failed on such a tight install".

So an OS partition of 40GB would work, for a "maintenance"
OS that doesn't have a lot of user files stored in it.

You might want the partition to be a tiny bit bigger.

When I select a value of 80GB, that's to ensure "first time success"
on my test machine here. I can shrink it down later, if
I'm feeling brave.

There are some free partition...


I was showing you the step 7 picture
of the instructions you gave to me. I
haven't done anything so far because I
want to understand it before I start and
my HD is 2TB.

So are you saying to increase the partition
size in the step 7 to 80GB and do not worry
about reducing the free space size?

Here are the steps you gave me for cloning:

https://postimg.cc/ZvrdJVMt

https://postimg.cc/McNMRCkJ

https://postimg.cc/ZvFCG0WJ

https://postimg.cc/v1JTD59Q

https://postimg.cc/gXbhQCgq

https://postimg.cc/r0TdQSpf

https://postimg.cc/4myYL4JR

https://postimg.cc/KKS48ntm

https://postimg.cc/8j7CdyH1

https://postimg.cc/4KgNgXTd

https://postimg.cc/K4HGYPyC

https://postimg.cc/ns2Zf7kR

Robert

Robert in CA wrote:
I don't know exactly what you've done there.

The value of 34.6GB is a bit tight for Windows 10,
only in the sense that the 1903 installer is doing
a poorer job of calculating its needs than some
of the earlier releases. I had one install attempt
that was "ruined", in that the OS was not able to
prepare a pagefile properly on its final reboot
and it conked out. I gave it a bit more space,
and it succeeded on a second attempt (this is one
reason for having backups and the like, for easy
do-overs). I've had some previous Windows 10, that
accepted the challenge of small C: partition and
handled it by dialing down the hiberfile and pagefile sizes.

A starting value of 80GB could be shrunk to 40GB
later, as an example.

Windows might need:

10GB for the current installed OS (yours is 6.84GB in the picture)
20GB for Windows.old
Memory * 1 for pagefile (4GB RAM = 4GB pagefile)
Memory times 0.75 for hiberfile (4GB RAM = 3GB hiberfile)
That would be 37GB approximately.

You can see that it's very close to working with
what you're showing me - then it's a question of
"would you be annoyed if it failed on such a tight install".

So an OS partition of 40GB would work, for a "maintenance"
OS that doesn't have a lot of user files stored in it.

You might want the partition to be a tiny bit bigger.

When I select a value of 80GB, that's to ensure "first time success"
on my test machine here. I can shrink it down later, if
I'm feeling brave.

There are some free partition...


I was showing you the step 7 picture
of the instructions you gave to me. I
haven't done anything so far because I
want to understand it before I start and
my HD is 2TB.

So are you saying to increase the partition
size in the step 7 to 80GB and do not worry
about reducing the free space size?

Here are the steps you gave me for cloning:

https://postimg.cc/ZvrdJVMt

https://postimg.cc/McNMRCkJ

https://postimg.cc/ZvFCG0WJ

https://postimg.cc/v1JTD59Q

https://postimg.cc/gXbhQCgq

https://postimg.cc/r0TdQSpf

https://postimg.cc/4myYL4JR

https://postimg.cc/KKS48ntm

https://postimg.cc/8j7CdyH1

https://postimg.cc/4KgNgXTd

https://postimg.cc/K4HGYPyC

https://postimg.cc/ns2Zf7kR

Robert

That was an example of making the partition a
big larger, to use unallocated space to the right
of the partition. The partition started at 33.58GB
and by adjusting the end value, it became 34.627GB.
There was only about 1GB of unused space on the end
to play with there, so as resize operations go, it
wasn't a very adventurous example.

https://postimg.cc/r0TdQSpf

What you want to do, when copying a working OS,
is copy the parts that make it boot. If the install
had a System Reserved and a C: partition, you would
copy those. If the C: partition is to the right of the
System Reserved partition, you should be able to resize
it to some desired value.

The value you select as the final size for the Win7
partition, has to leave room for the Windows 10 install
procedure.

About 28GB of that partition isn't used, which should be
sufficient for Windows 10 to install. Even if the slack
space was only 20GB, it should be OK. This assumes
the pagefile and hiberfile are already in the root of
C: with those other files. The 6.84GB of files on the
original C: would (partially) become C:\windows.old for
example. And the slack space then needs to be big enough
for Windows 10 C:\windows which is 10-12GB or so. A value
of 20GB of slack space, is bigger than 10-12GB and leaves
a bit of room.

Paul

What you want to do, when copying a working OS,
is copy the parts that make it boot. If the install
had a System Reserved and a C: partition, you would
copy those. If the C: partition is to the right of the
System Reserved partition, you should be able to resize
it to some desired value.

The value you select as the final size for the Win7
partition, has to leave room for the Windows 10 install
procedure.

About 28GB of that partition isn't used, which should be
sufficient for Windows 10 to install. Even if the slack
space was only 20GB, it should be OK. This assumes
the pagefile and hiberfile are already in the root of
C: with those other files. The 6.84GB of files on the
original C: would (partially) become C:\windows.old for
example. And the slack space then needs to be big enough
for Windows 10 C:\windows which is 10-12GB or so. A value
of 20GB of slack space, is bigger than 10-12GB and leaves
a bit of room.

Paul



All the technical stuff is confusing me.

It seems to me that what your saying is to increase the
C: partition to allow room for Win 10 to write over win7,
is this correct?

So do I increase the space by moving the settings and making
the free space zero or until the partition reaches 80GB? Is
that how I do it and watch the counter until it reaches 80GB
on top of what's already there?

Robert

Robert in CA wrote:

What you want to do, when copying a working OS,
is copy the parts that make it boot. If the install
had a System Reserved and a C: partition, you would
copy those. If the C: partition is to the right of the
System Reserved partition, you should be able to resize
it to some desired value.

The value you select as the final size for the Win7
partition, has to leave room for the Windows 10 install
procedure.

About 28GB of that partition isn't used, which should be
sufficient for Windows 10 to install. Even if the slack
space was only 20GB, it should be OK. This assumes
the pagefile and hiberfile are already in the root of
C: with those other files. The 6.84GB of files on the
original C: would (partially) become C:\windows.old for
example. And the slack space then needs to be big enough
for Windows 10 C:\windows which is 10-12GB or so. A value
of 20GB of slack space, is bigger than 10-12GB and leaves
a bit of room.

Paul



All the technical stuff is confusing me.

It seems to me that what your saying is to increase the
C: partition to allow room for Win 10 to write over win7,
is this correct?

So do I increase the space by moving the settings and making
the free space zero or until the partition reaches 80GB? Is
that how I do it and watch the counter until it reaches 80GB
on top of what's already there?

Robert



Graphically, you can pull the gray triangle on the right,
to resize the partition. The numbers should twirl as you
move the end of the partition to the right. If you want to
use 80GB, then stop when "Partition Size" hits 80GB.

This is the resize dialog picture you posted, and there
will be "more room to move to the right" on your setup.

https://postimg.cc/4myYL4JR

Paul

I put the blank HD in a external case and
connected it to the 8500 via USB. I hear it
connect but the 8500 doesn't recognize it
and there's no icon to remove device safely.
I just restarted the computer to remove it.
What am I doing wrong?


Robert

Robert in CA wrote:
I put the blank HD in a external case and
connected it to the 8500 via USB. I hear it
connect but the 8500 doesn't recognize it
and there's no icon to remove device safely.
I just restarted the computer to remove it.
What am I doing wrong?


Robert

Power switched on ?

Drive properly seated in enclosure ?

Do you hear any "sound effects" coming from the enclosure ?

Check in Device Manager, for a new entry.

Even if the MBR does not contain a valid
signature, the "item" should still show up
in Disk Management (so that a valid MBR can
be assigned to it, as an option).

On a decent computer, the popup boot menu
could have an entry with the Disk Name
showing up, as proof it's there. On
some, the USB setup page in the BIOS,
will list connected/alive devices.

Paul

In message , Paul
writes:
Robert in CA wrote:
I put the blank HD in a external case and connected it to the 8500
via USB. I hear it connect but the 8500 doesn't recognize it and
there's no icon to remove device safely.
I just restarted the computer to remove it. What am I doing wrong?
Robert

If there are no partitions on it, or they aren't formatted, then it
won't show up _in Windows Explorer_; it will in Disk Management, though.
(Type parti into the search box; it shows as "Create and format hard
disk partitions".)

Power switched on ?

Drive properly seated in enclosure ?

Do you hear any "sound effects" coming from the enclosure ?

Check in Device Manager, for a new entry.

Even if the MBR does not contain a valid
signature, the "item" should still show up
in Disk Management (so that a valid MBR can
be assigned to it, as an option).

On a decent computer, the popup boot menu
could have an entry with the Disk Name
showing up, as proof it's there. On
some, the USB setup page in the BIOS,
will list connected/alive devices.

Paul
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush.
It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment.
-Robert Maynard Hutchins, educator (1899-1977)

On Sunday, October 6, 2019 at 6:54:29 PM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
Robert in CA wrote:
I put the blank HD in a external case and
connected it to the 8500 via USB. I hear it
connect but the 8500 doesn't recognize it
and there's no icon to remove device safely.
I just restarted the computer to remove it.
What am I doing wrong?


Robert

Power switched on ?

Drive properly seated in enclosure ?

Do you hear any "sound effects" coming from the enclosure ?

Check in Device Manager, for a new entry.

Even if the MBR does not contain a valid
signature, the "item" should still show up
in Disk Management (so that a valid MBR can
be assigned to it, as an option).

On a decent computer, the popup boot menu
could have an entry with the Disk Name
showing up, as proof it's there. On
some, the USB setup page in the BIOS,
will list connected/alive devices.

Paul



I will re-check everything and try again.

Robert