Keyboard problem

Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver. Buy a
different one? Ay ideas making this one work?

The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick
worse.

TIA


--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.

In message , KenK
writes:
Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver. Buy a
different one? Ay ideas making this one work?

The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick
worse.

TIA


What's special about this "Ideas in Motion" keyboard - multimedia (or
other extra) keys?

Is it PS/2 or USB? Is it wireless? Does it work as a basic keyboard (i.
e. the normal keys), with just the special keys not working, or does it
not work at all?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

You can believe it if it helps you to sleep. - Quoted by Tom Lehrer (on
religion, in passing), April 2013.

On 06/12/2017 18:07, KenK wrote:
Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver. Buy a
different one? Ay ideas making this one work?

The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick
worse.

TIA



Please go and buy a new keyboard and stop wasting time trying to fix
it. You will find $10 spent on a new KB is worth it.

Good luck and keep us posted.


--
With over 600 million devices now running Windows 10, customer
satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.

KenK wrote:
Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver. Buy a
different one? Ay ideas making this one work?

The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick
worse.

TIA

A keyboard should declare itself as a HID device in the
Plug and Play information it presents.

This causes the in-box HID driver to be used. The OS
has HID keyboard and HID mouse drivers.

That means *every* keyboard, whether PS/2 or USB,
works out of the box. At least, as long as they align
with some standards for such things. There are occasional
problems (like I think Win10 botched something with
regard to keyboards at some point).

Exceptions include bindings for "multimedia keys".
If a keyboard has those (the keyboard I'm typing on
right now does), the driver for those keys is separate.
I don't have that driver installed, and the "basic"
keyboard matrix is working just fine.

And a lot of HID notions work like that. For example,
on a mouse, the three standard buttons are recognized
by the OS. However, if you have additional "side" buttons
on a mouse, those need a separate driver (as such buttons
are then considered "custom" and an added driver is a
filter driver and detects the "unknown" codes).

The multimedia buttons on my keyboard, aren't keyboard keys,
they're "gum" buttons, dome style, labeled

Volume- Volume+
Internet Email Search Mute

The separate software controls the binding between
the button and some command. And the separate software
is needed, because they're not ordinary letters, and
they're not Fkeys either.

Keyboards come in a couple standard matrix sizes,
which is why the in-box driver can work with them.
To reduce the pin count on the keyboard chips,
the chip uses a 7x17 switch closure matrix. There
are 24 pins, one set of pins sends signals, the
other set of pins listens for them. And that gives
the possibility of 109 keys. As an example. There
is at least a matrix for standard sized keyboards,
as well as compact (no F-key keyboards). There are
web pages with more details (too complicated for
me to even begin to repeat...).

When you have an electronics failure in a keyboard,
a "group" of keys fail, and that "group" of keys
corresponds to the wiring of the 7x17 matrix.
So you find maybe 7 keys failing at the same time,
that sort of thing. And that means some aspect of
one of the wires is "jammed".

*******

I can't find a URL for your keyboard, so cannot determine
whether there is anything unique or non-standard about
it or not.

And keyboards and mice work in parallel, so you are allowed
to have two or more keyboards plugged in at the same time.
As long as there are physical ports for them of course.
You can even have a PS/2 keyboard and a USB keyboard
at the same time. The only trouble-maker, is Windows 10,
which has some crazy notions of "first-detected" devices,
that varies with Windows 10 release number.

On modern computers, some PS/2 connectors come with "bi-colors".
There are sufficient pins on the miniDIN connector in such
cases, to support two electrical interfaces. If a device
doesn't work when plugged into such a thing, then you
have to track down the details of whether the design
requires some sort of adapter or not (if you want to use
both interfaces at the same time or not).

The keyboard uses 1,3,4,5. If a Y adapter is used, it
wires 2 from the computer to 1 on the mouse. And it
wires 6 on the computer, to 5 on the mouse. The keyboard
works by default when plugged into the computer, but the
mouse would only work if connected via the Y adapter.
And there are some variants on this, as there also
seem to be cases where it's "dual personality", and
either device works when plugged in, without an adapter,
and it's just the Y cabling and two device usage
that isn't supported.

This diagram shows the six pin connector, has enough
pins to drive a mouse and keyboard at the same time.

Pin 1 Data_keyboard
Pin 2 (Data_mouse on bicolor)
Pin 3 GND
Pin 4 VCC+5
Pin 5 Clock_keyboard
Pin 6 (Clock_mouse on bicolor)

The ascii art diagram for the multiplexed bi-color
connector looks like this.

http://www.burtonsys.com/PS2_keyboar...r_pinouts.html

Computer (M)
Keyboard (F) -- End Of Y -- Mouse (F)
------------ ------------ ------------
pin function pin function pin function

1=data ---------- 1=data +--- 1=data
2 n.c. 2 -----------+ 2 n.c.
3=gnd ----------- 3=gnd ----------- 3=gnd
4=+5v ----------- 4=+5v ----------- 4=+5v
5=clock --------- 5=clock +------ 5=clock
6 n.c. 6 --------+ 6 n.c.

HTH,
Paul

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in
:

In message , KenK
writes:
Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver.
Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work?

The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys stick
worse.

TIA


What's special about this "Ideas in Motion" keyboard - multimedia (or
other extra) keys?

Don't remember. I bought it a year or so ago. Likely just cheap.

Is it PS/2 or USB?

USB

Is it wireless?

No

Does it work as a basic keyboard
(i. e. the normal keys), with just the special keys not working, or
does it not work at all?

I just tried the regular keys. Didn't work at all.


--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.

Good Guy wrote in
news
On 06/12/2017 18:07, KenK wrote:
Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver.
Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work?

The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys
stick worse.

TIA



Please go and buy a new keyboard and stop wasting time trying to fix
it. You will find $10 spent on a new KB is worth it.

Good luck and keep us posted.


Qestion is what to look for. New one I bought should have worked.



--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.

On 07/12/2017 13:54, KenK wrote:


Qestion is what to look for. New one I bought should have worked.




for an XP machine, you need a very basic keyboard because you are not
likely to get new drivers for XP machine but generic Microsoft drivers
will always work. So buy a basic USB keyboard and your problem is
solved overnight.

Mr thinks so anyway.


--
With over 600 million devices now running Windows 10, customer
satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.

KenK wrote:
Good Guy wrote in
news
On 06/12/2017 18:07, KenK wrote:
Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver.
Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work?

The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys
stick worse.

TIA


Please go and buy a new keyboard and stop wasting time trying to fix
it. You will find $10 spent on a new KB is worth it.

Good luck and keep us posted.


Qestion is what to look for. New one I bought should have worked.

Since it's USB, use the USB Device Tree Viewer
to example the keyboard you just plugged in.

The downloads are near the bottom of the page.

http://www.uwe-sieber.de/usbtreeview_e.html

It should declare itself as a HID.

If it doesn't cause "Endpoints" to form, then the
system cannot talk to it.

Paul

Paul wrote in news
KenK wrote:
Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver.
Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work?

The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys
stick worse.

TIA

A keyboard should declare itself as a HID device in the
Plug and Play information it presents.

This causes the in-box HID driver to be used. The OS
has HID keyboard and HID mouse drivers.

That means *every* keyboard, whether PS/2 or USB,
works out of the box. At least, as long as they align
with some standards for such things. There are occasional
problems (like I think Win10 botched something with
regard to keyboards at some point).

Exceptions include bindings for "multimedia keys".
If a keyboard has those (the keyboard I'm typing on
right now does), the driver for those keys is separate.
I don't have that driver installed, and the "basic"
keyboard matrix is working just fine.

Nope, this one is normal.

And a lot of HID notions work like that. For example,
on a mouse, the three standard buttons are recognized
by the OS. However, if you have additional "side" buttons
on a mouse, those need a separate driver (as such buttons
are then considered "custom" and an added driver is a
filter driver and detects the "unknown" codes).

The multimedia buttons on my keyboard, aren't keyboard keys,
they're "gum" buttons, dome style, labeled

Volume- Volume+
Internet Email Search Mute

The separate software controls the binding between
the button and some command. And the separate software
is needed, because they're not ordinary letters, and
they're not Fkeys either.

Keyboards come in a couple standard matrix sizes,
which is why the in-box driver can work with them.
To reduce the pin count on the keyboard chips,
the chip uses a 7x17 switch closure matrix. There
are 24 pins, one set of pins sends signals, the
other set of pins listens for them. And that gives
the possibility of 109 keys. As an example. There
is at least a matrix for standard sized keyboards,
as well as compact (no F-key keyboards). There are
web pages with more details (too complicated for
me to even begin to repeat...).

When you have an electronics failure in a keyboard,
a "group" of keys fail, and that "group" of keys
corresponds to the wiring of the 7x17 matrix.
So you find maybe 7 keys failing at the same time,
that sort of thing. And that means some aspect of
one of the wires is "jammed".

*******

I can't find a URL for your keyboard, so cannot determine
whether there is anything unique or non-standard about
it or not.

And keyboards and mice work in parallel, so you are allowed
to have two or more keyboards plugged in at the same time.
As long as there are physical ports for them of course.
You can even have a PS/2 keyboard and a USB keyboard
at the same time. The only trouble-maker, is Windows 10,
which has some crazy notions of "first-detected" devices,
that varies with Windows 10 release number.

On modern computers, some PS/2 connectors come with "bi-colors".
There are sufficient pins on the miniDIN connector in such
cases, to support two electrical interfaces. If a device
doesn't work when plugged into such a thing, then you
have to track down the details of whether the design
requires some sort of adapter or not (if you want to use
both interfaces at the same time or not).

The keyboard uses 1,3,4,5. If a Y adapter is used, it
wires 2 from the computer to 1 on the mouse. And it
wires 6 on the computer, to 5 on the mouse. The keyboard
works by default when plugged into the computer, but the
mouse would only work if connected via the Y adapter.
And there are some variants on this, as there also
seem to be cases where it's "dual personality", and
either device works when plugged in, without an adapter,
and it's just the Y cabling and two device usage
that isn't supported.

This diagram shows the six pin connector, has enough
pins to drive a mouse and keyboard at the same time.

Pin 1 Data_keyboard
Pin 2 (Data_mouse on bicolor)
Pin 3 GND
Pin 4 VCC+5
Pin 5 Clock_keyboard
Pin 6 (Clock_mouse on bicolor)

The ascii art diagram for the multiplexed bi-color
connector looks like this.

http://www.burtonsys.com/PS2_keyboar...6_connector_pi
nouts.html

Computer (M)
Keyboard (F) -- End Of Y -- Mouse (F)
------------ ------------ ------------
pin function pin function pin function

1=data ---------- 1=data +--- 1=data
2 n.c. 2 -----------+ 2 n.c.
3=gnd ----------- 3=gnd ----------- 3=gnd
4=+5v ----------- 4=+5v ----------- 4=+5v
5=clock --------- 5=clock +------ 5=clock
6 n.c. 6 --------+ 6 n.c.

HTH,
Paul


Thanks.

Found a couple of old PS/s (the new on is USB) with two old pre-XP
systems (can't recall Win O/S name). My Emachine hsa PS/2 socket. I'll
shut off and try one aftr I go off line this morning. Hope it works. This
one is a royal pain to use. Have to press some keys VERY hard!




--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.

KenK wrote in
:

Paul wrote in news
KenK wrote:
Can't install a new Ideas in Motion keyboard - XP can't find driver.
Buy a different one? Ay ideas making this one work?

The old keyboard is full of dust and cleaning it just makes keys
stick worse.

TIA

A keyboard should declare itself as a HID device in the
Plug and Play information it presents.

This causes the in-box HID driver to be used. The OS
has HID keyboard and HID mouse drivers.

That means *every* keyboard, whether PS/2 or USB,
works out of the box. At least, as long as they align
with some standards for such things. There are occasional
problems (like I think Win10 botched something with
regard to keyboards at some point).

Exceptions include bindings for "multimedia keys".
If a keyboard has those (the keyboard I'm typing on
right now does), the driver for those keys is separate.
I don't have that driver installed, and the "basic"
keyboard matrix is working just fine.

Nope, this one is normal.

And a lot of HID notions work like that. For example,
on a mouse, the three standard buttons are recognized
by the OS. However, if you have additional "side" buttons
on a mouse, those need a separate driver (as such buttons
are then considered "custom" and an added driver is a
filter driver and detects the "unknown" codes).

The multimedia buttons on my keyboard, aren't keyboard keys,
they're "gum" buttons, dome style, labeled

Volume- Volume+
Internet Email Search Mute

The separate software controls the binding between
the button and some command. And the separate software
is needed, because they're not ordinary letters, and
they're not Fkeys either.

Keyboards come in a couple standard matrix sizes,
which is why the in-box driver can work with them.
To reduce the pin count on the keyboard chips,
the chip uses a 7x17 switch closure matrix. There
are 24 pins, one set of pins sends signals, the
other set of pins listens for them. And that gives
the possibility of 109 keys. As an example. There
is at least a matrix for standard sized keyboards,
as well as compact (no F-key keyboards). There are
web pages with more details (too complicated for
me to even begin to repeat...).

When you have an electronics failure in a keyboard,
a "group" of keys fail, and that "group" of keys
corresponds to the wiring of the 7x17 matrix.
So you find maybe 7 keys failing at the same time,
that sort of thing. And that means some aspect of
one of the wires is "jammed".

*******

I can't find a URL for your keyboard, so cannot determine
whether there is anything unique or non-standard about
it or not.

And keyboards and mice work in parallel, so you are allowed
to have two or more keyboards plugged in at the same time.
As long as there are physical ports for them of course.
You can even have a PS/2 keyboard and a USB keyboard
at the same time. The only trouble-maker, is Windows 10,
which has some crazy notions of "first-detected" devices,
that varies with Windows 10 release number.

On modern computers, some PS/2 connectors come with "bi-colors".
There are sufficient pins on the miniDIN connector in such
cases, to support two electrical interfaces. If a device
doesn't work when plugged into such a thing, then you
have to track down the details of whether the design
requires some sort of adapter or not (if you want to use
both interfaces at the same time or not).

The keyboard uses 1,3,4,5. If a Y adapter is used, it
wires 2 from the computer to 1 on the mouse. And it
wires 6 on the computer, to 5 on the mouse. The keyboard
works by default when plugged into the computer, but the
mouse would only work if connected via the Y adapter.
And there are some variants on this, as there also
seem to be cases where it's "dual personality", and
either device works when plugged in, without an adapter,
and it's just the Y cabling and two device usage
that isn't supported.

This diagram shows the six pin connector, has enough
pins to drive a mouse and keyboard at the same time.

Pin 1 Data_keyboard
Pin 2 (Data_mouse on bicolor)
Pin 3 GND
Pin 4 VCC+5
Pin 5 Clock_keyboard
Pin 6 (Clock_mouse on bicolor)

The ascii art diagram for the multiplexed bi-color
connector looks like this.

http://www.burtonsys.com/PS2_keyboar...-6_connector_p
i nouts.html

Computer (M)
Keyboard (F) -- End Of Y -- Mouse (F)
------------ ------------ ------------
pin function pin function pin function

1=data ---------- 1=data +--- 1=data
2 n.c. 2 -----------+ 2 n.c.
3=gnd ----------- 3=gnd ----------- 3=gnd
4=+5v ----------- 4=+5v ----------- 4=+5v
5=clock --------- 5=clock +------ 5=clock
6 n.c. 6 --------+ 6 n.c.

HTH,
Paul


Thanks.

Found a couple of old PS/s (the new on is USB) with two old pre-XP
systems (can't recall Win O/S name). My Emachine hsa PS/2 socket. I'll
shut off and try one aftr I go off line this morning. Hope it works.
This one is a royal pain to use. Have to press some keys VERY hard!




Nope. Didn't work. System said no keyboard found when booting and mouse
pointer was frozen when system started. sigh I was hoping...



--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.

KenK wrote:

Nope. Didn't work. System said no keyboard found when booting and mouse
pointer was frozen when system started. sigh I was hoping...

OK, next question. Do any of these
subsystems (PS/2 or USB) light up any LEDs ?

Some of the cheaper motherboards, skimp on fuses
for the +5V supply.

A "good design" assigns one Polyfuse per two USB headers.

A "good design" assigns a Polyfuse for the parallel (printer) port (+5V).

And the PS/2 ports may have their own fuse too.

However, some try to run the whole works, off one fuse.

A traditional Polyfuse is green in color, and has
a "notch" in the end of it. These examples might
be rated for 1.4 amps (for two USB ports of 500mA each).
The green-ness, and the notch, help them stand out
when inspecting a PCB.

http://i.imgur.com/GuxsJ.png

*******

A Polyfuse is a polycrystalline device. The active
material "melts" if too much current is drawn.
When the power is off again, the material cools
off and goes back to crystal form (where the crystal
conducts electricity).

This means that normally the fuse resets itself.
There is nothing to replace (normally).

You can check your ports with a multimeter, but
this is difficult to do without some deal of care
so you don't short something out while working on it.
An easier check, is to check fpr +5V on either side
of the fuse, while the keyboard is connected, proving
the fuse is still closed.

A USB device with a LED on it, like a USB reading lamp,
a device that has no "USB state" but just draws power
from VCC, is a good means to verify power is present.

I suspect you may have a power problem, and the above
is a hint about what to look for.

A failed Polyfuse doesn't normally burn to a crisp,
so you won't likely get a hint that way. You could
ohm it out, with your multimeter, as it should have
a decently low resistance across the terminals when
cold. I'd do it with all power off on the PC, just
to make the results more predictable.

(There is a capacitor on the output side of the fuse,
which provides holdup of the +5V rail voltage against
inrush current. USB peripherals are only allowed to
use capacitors around 1/10th the size, so that when
a USB device is plugged in, the rail voltage doesn't
sag too much. So there is electrical circuitry on
either side of the fuse, which could influence a reading.)

Some of this is addressed in this document, written
by Intel to help motherboard designers during
the USB2 era.

https://web.archive.org/web/20060626...therboards.pdf

Anyway, most of that is for fun, and if you can get
any sort of LED to confirm it's got power, that's
good enough at this point.

For example, this USB desk lamp, draws 5V @ 400mA,
just under the 500mA limit for a USB2 port. So this
would be a good test for power availability. A typical
ATX power supply, can only run about five of these,
as the +5VSB rail used on modern designs, has a
2A limit. I don't know if you'd find these at a
Walmart or not.

http://www.mobisun.com/en/mobisun-le...light-usb.html

Paul

KenK wrote:

Nope. Didn't work. System said no keyboard found when booting and mouse
pointer was frozen when system started. sigh I was hoping...

And one other thing to look at, on an older motherboard,
is "USBPWR" headers. These can be 1x3 or 2x3 arrays of
pins. Each 1x3 group, must have a jumper plug between
two of the pins. Like this.

+---+
| |
X X X
+5V . +5VSB

In message , KenK
writes:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in
:
[]
Don't remember. I bought it a year or so ago. Likely just cheap.

Is it PS/2 or USB?

USB

Is it wireless?

No

Does it work as a basic keyboard
(i. e. the normal keys), with just the special keys not working, or
does it not work at all?

I just tried the regular keys. Didn't work at all.


I think it's a dud then. Try it on another computer. It should work,
without drivers, as a normal keyboard.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Advertising is legalized lying. - H.G. Wells

In message , KenK
writes:
KenK wrote in
[]
Found a couple of old PS/s (the new on is USB) with two old pre-XP
systems (can't recall Win O/S name). My Emachine hsa PS/2 socket. I'll
shut off and try one aftr I go off line this morning. Hope it works.
This one is a royal pain to use. Have to press some keys VERY hard!

I was going to say if they don't have Windows keys, remember Ctrl-Esc
does the same as pressing the Windows key (though I'm not sure about
combinations like Win+E), but ...



Nope. Didn't work. System said no keyboard found when booting and mouse
pointer was frozen when system started. sigh I was hoping...

.... that doesn't sound too promising.


When you say mouse pointer is frozen, do you mean the arrow appears, but
doesn't move? Had this with my blind friend's machine (with a touch
pad), under Windows 10. He (we) could get it back for one boot, but it
would then disappear again (still showing the pointer, but immovable) on
next reboot. We did solve it eventually - I forget how, I think it was
by downloading the default Synaptics touchpad driver, or the one from
the laptop manufacturer (which I think was/is the own-brand make of DSG
[Dixons Store Group - Dixons, PC World, etc.] - I forget the "make", but
I think it begins with A). [If you're wondering: no, my blind friend
doesn't use the mouse/touchpad, but I do when I'm trying to sort things
out for him - and he was surprisingly keen that it should work anyway!]

We didn't have any problem with the keyboard, though. But there may well
be some interaction between the two.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Advertising is legalized lying. - H.G. Wells

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in
:

In message , KenK
writes:
KenK wrote in
[]
Found a couple of old PS/s (the new on is USB) with two old pre-XP
systems (can't recall Win O/S name). My Emachine hsa PS/2 socket.
I'll
shut off and try one aftr I go off line this morning. Hope it works.
This one is a royal pain to use. Have to press some keys VERY hard!

I was going to say if they don't have Windows keys, remember Ctrl-Esc
does the same as pressing the Windows key (though I'm not sure about
combinations like Win+E), but ...



Nope. Didn't work. System said no keyboard found when booting and mouse
pointer was frozen when system started. sigh I was hoping...

... that doesn't sound too promising.


When you say mouse pointer is frozen, do you mean the arrow appears,
but
doesn't move?

Yes.

Had this with my blind friend's machine (with a touch
pad), under Windows 10. He (we) could get it back for one boot, but it
would then disappear again (still showing the pointer, but immovable)
on
next reboot. We did solve it eventually - I forget how, I think it was
by downloading the default Synaptics touchpad driver, or the one from
the laptop manufacturer (which I think was/is the own-brand make of DSG
[Dixons Store Group - Dixons, PC World, etc.] - I forget the "make",
but
I think it begins with A). [If you're wondering: no, my blind friend
doesn't use the mouse/touchpad, but I do when I'm trying to sort things
out for him - and he was surprisingly keen that it should work anyway!]

We didn't have any problem with the keyboard, though. But there may
well
be some interaction between the two.

I'm going to forgot about that problem - for now anyway. The PS/2
keyboards are very old and I just wanted something to use until I could
buy a new one. Hopefuly one that works!

--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.