netbooks

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 04:08:01 +0000, Jeffrey Kaplan wrote:

Linux is a power user/admin desktop. It is an OS designed to be used
as a server. Normal user desktop is almost an afterthought for it.

Linux is not a monolith. There are many distros tailored to the
desktop user, all of them much more configurable than Windows.
Unfortunately there are applications on Windows not available on
Linux.

(f/u trimmed)

On 2/16/2013 2:22 AM, BillW50 wrote:
All of my Linux machines can't do any heavy lifting. Just simple basic
tasks like browsing, email, and newsgroups and that is about it. Hell I
can't even use the cams since I have no Linux software that can use them.

I've never had that problem. One can do a lot more than what you just
listed with Linux.

--
Alias

BillW50 wrote on [Fri, 15 Feb 2013 19:22:52 -0600]:
Our business runs on a mix of Linux, AIX and WIndows, none of those are
PDA operating systems. The heavy lifting is AIX and Linux and the ones with
the most compatability and least problems run on AIX and Linux. So...

All of my Linux machines can't do any heavy lifting. Just simple basic
tasks like browsing, email, and newsgroups and that is about it. Hell I
can't even use the cams since I have no Linux software that can use them.

What's heavy lifting in your world?

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:31:45 +0000, Justin wrote:

BillW50 wrote on [Fri, 15 Feb 2013 19:22:52 -0600]:
Justin wrote:
Our business runs on a mix of Linux, AIX and WIndows, none of those
are PDA operating systems. The heavy lifting is AIX and Linux and the
ones with the most compatability and least problems run on AIX and
Linux. So...

All of my Linux machines can't do any heavy lifting. Just simple basic
tasks like browsing, email, and newsgroups and that is about it. Hell I
can't even use the cams since I have no Linux software that can use
them.

What's heavy lifting in your [BillW50's] world?

Apparently, anything that requires two or more of his synapses to fire at
the same time...

BillW50 wrote:


All of my Linux machines can't do any heavy lifting. Just simple basic
tasks like browsing, email, and newsgroups and that is about it. Hell I
can't even use the cams since I have no Linux software that can use them.


Come on. You're smarter than that.

The Linux kernel had web camera support built in, and a lot of drivers
were included. That should allow basic UVC support for example
(UVC being a standard for USB webcams). For cameras that are not standards
compliant, there is still hope. A few people worked hard to get
hundreds of those stupid non-standard things working. The hard
part with those, is the manufacturers can mix different sensors
with controllers, and it makes work for the Linux webcam developers
to reverse engineer what a Windows custom driver is doing to the camera.

If you're referring to SLR cameras (still pictures), you have the option
of transferring pictures via whatever removable memory card the camera has.
(Use a USB to SD, USB to Memory Card or whatever.) USB Mass Storage support
has been around for a while, so I wouldn't expect a problem using a transfer
method like that.

A still camera could use MTP or USB Mass Storage if it wanted. I expect Linux
has MTP, but I have nothing here to test with. All I've got is a webcam,
and it works.

The "Cheese" application allows you to take pictures with the webcam.
Look in the package manager for a tool like that and try it out.
The package manager allows you to easily add application support.
The kernels shipped with the distros usually have a maximum of drivers
boiled into them. You'd only need to rebuild a kernel, if you wanted
to speed up the boot process (by removing the drivers you don't need).
The Gentoo LiveCD I've got, takes about 4 minutes to boot, because it
has so many drivers it attempts to load. (Presumably, as a demonstration
of the driver prowess of Linux - having all those old RAID storage cards
supported for example.)

The very first release of kernel with the webcam drivers built in,
wasn't very good. I had a kernel crash when I tried that, on the
second attempt to use the camera. (A kernel crash is not likely to
happen, because the kernel people who supply kernels to the 500 different
distros take great care to test for it. But it happened when they
first boiled in the webcam support. I think they were a little too quick
releasing the first one.) But those teething pains were a
while back, and it's much better now. Any newer distros I've tried
since then, the webcam didn't cause a problem.

Paul

On 2/16/2013 1:27 PM, Paul wrote:
BillW50 wrote:


All of my Linux machines can't do any heavy lifting. Just simple basic
tasks like browsing, email, and newsgroups and that is about it. Hell
I can't even use the cams since I have no Linux software that can use
them.


Come on. You're smarter than that.

The Linux kernel had web camera support built in, and a lot of drivers
were included. That should allow basic UVC support for example
(UVC being a standard for USB webcams). For cameras that are not standards
compliant, there is still hope. A few people worked hard to get
hundreds of those stupid non-standard things working. The hard
part with those, is the manufacturers can mix different sensors
with controllers, and it makes work for the Linux webcam developers
to reverse engineer what a Windows custom driver is doing to the camera.

If you're referring to SLR cameras (still pictures), you have the option
of transferring pictures via whatever removable memory card the camera has.
(Use a USB to SD, USB to Memory Card or whatever.) USB Mass Storage support
has been around for a while, so I wouldn't expect a problem using a
transfer
method like that.

A still camera could use MTP or USB Mass Storage if it wanted. I expect
Linux
has MTP, but I have nothing here to test with. All I've got is a webcam,
and it works.

The "Cheese" application allows you to take pictures with the webcam.
Look in the package manager for a tool like that and try it out.
The package manager allows you to easily add application support.
The kernels shipped with the distros usually have a maximum of drivers
boiled into them. You'd only need to rebuild a kernel, if you wanted
to speed up the boot process (by removing the drivers you don't need).
The Gentoo LiveCD I've got, takes about 4 minutes to boot, because it
has so many drivers it attempts to load. (Presumably, as a demonstration
of the driver prowess of Linux - having all those old RAID storage cards
supported for example.)

The very first release of kernel with the webcam drivers built in,
wasn't very good. I had a kernel crash when I tried that, on the
second attempt to use the camera. (A kernel crash is not likely to
happen, because the kernel people who supply kernels to the 500 different
distros take great care to test for it. But it happened when they
first boiled in the webcam support. I think they were a little too quick
releasing the first one.) But those teething pains were a
while back, and it's much better now. Any newer distros I've tried
since then, the webcam didn't cause a problem.

Paul

Oh yes, Linux has webcam support built into the OS all right. That
wasn't the problem. The problem is Linux applications that supports a
webcam.

One of the big reason to have webcam isn't to take pictures or a video,
as cameras are better for this. But for instant messaging (IM). Back in
2008 with my first Linux machine with a webcam, there was nothing for
webcam support for IM. Yet Windows had it all.

Later I guess only Skype can under Linux. But that is it as far as I
know. Trillian is my favorite all around IM software. And you can
download it for Windows, Android, etc. but none for Linux. A Linux user
can use the web based version, but it is really stripped down version
and no webcam support. So Linux always seems to get it last if any at all.

--
Bill
Dell Latitude Slate Tablet 128GB SSD ('12 era) - Thunderbird v12
Intel Atom Z670 1.5GHz - 2GB - Windows 8 Professional

On 2/16/2013 12:31 PM, Justin wrote:
BillW50 wrote on [Fri, 15 Feb 2013 19:22:52 -0600]:
Our business runs on a mix of Linux, AIX and WIndows, none of those are
PDA operating systems. The heavy lifting is AIX and Linux and the ones with
the most compatability and least problems run on AIX and Linux. So...

All of my Linux machines can't do any heavy lifting. Just simple basic
tasks like browsing, email, and newsgroups and that is about it. Hell I
can't even use the cams since I have no Linux software that can use them.

What's heavy lifting in your world?

Oh lots of things like TV, gaming, utilities to take control and monitor
of your hardware, etc. And while I have tried StarOffice (I paid for
this one twice), OpenOffice, and LibreOffice, and none of those cut it
for me.

--
Bill
Dell Latitude Slate Tablet 128GB SSD ('12 era) - Thunderbird v12
Intel Atom Z670 1.5GHz - 2GB - Windows 8 Professional

BillW50 wrote:
On 2/16/2013 1:27 PM, Paul wrote:
BillW50 wrote:


All of my Linux machines can't do any heavy lifting. Just simple basic
tasks like browsing, email, and newsgroups and that is about it. Hell
I can't even use the cams since I have no Linux software that can use
them.


Come on. You're smarter than that.

The Linux kernel had web camera support built in, and a lot of drivers
were included. That should allow basic UVC support for example
(UVC being a standard for USB webcams). For cameras that are not
standards
compliant, there is still hope. A few people worked hard to get
hundreds of those stupid non-standard things working. The hard
part with those, is the manufacturers can mix different sensors
with controllers, and it makes work for the Linux webcam developers
to reverse engineer what a Windows custom driver is doing to the camera.

If you're referring to SLR cameras (still pictures), you have the option
of transferring pictures via whatever removable memory card the camera
has.
(Use a USB to SD, USB to Memory Card or whatever.) USB Mass Storage
support
has been around for a while, so I wouldn't expect a problem using a
transfer
method like that.

A still camera could use MTP or USB Mass Storage if it wanted. I expect
Linux
has MTP, but I have nothing here to test with. All I've got is a webcam,
and it works.

The "Cheese" application allows you to take pictures with the webcam.
Look in the package manager for a tool like that and try it out.
The package manager allows you to easily add application support.
The kernels shipped with the distros usually have a maximum of drivers
boiled into them. You'd only need to rebuild a kernel, if you wanted
to speed up the boot process (by removing the drivers you don't need).
The Gentoo LiveCD I've got, takes about 4 minutes to boot, because it
has so many drivers it attempts to load. (Presumably, as a demonstration
of the driver prowess of Linux - having all those old RAID storage cards
supported for example.)

The very first release of kernel with the webcam drivers built in,
wasn't very good. I had a kernel crash when I tried that, on the
second attempt to use the camera. (A kernel crash is not likely to
happen, because the kernel people who supply kernels to the 500 different
distros take great care to test for it. But it happened when they
first boiled in the webcam support. I think they were a little too quick
releasing the first one.) But those teething pains were a
while back, and it's much better now. Any newer distros I've tried
since then, the webcam didn't cause a problem.

Paul

Oh yes, Linux has webcam support built into the OS all right. That
wasn't the problem. The problem is Linux applications that supports a
webcam.

One of the big reason to have webcam isn't to take pictures or a video,
as cameras are better for this. But for instant messaging (IM). Back in
2008 with my first Linux machine with a webcam, there was nothing for
webcam support for IM. Yet Windows had it all.

Later I guess only Skype can under Linux. But that is it as far as I
know. Trillian is my favorite all around IM software. And you can
download it for Windows, Android, etc. but none for Linux. A Linux user
can use the web based version, but it is really stripped down version
and no webcam support. So Linux always seems to get it last if any at all.


Even in the Windows world, the various suppliers of IM software
worked to make their product non-compatible with other Windows
IM programs. This means two people would need to use the same tools
to communicate.

You could have cross-platform tools, if the IM client was written
in Java. I don't know if anyone did that or not.

Did you try the package manager ? Were there any
instant messaging programs there ? I don't think
I've ever used IM, and have spent more time disabling
IM tools that function as malware vectors, than actually
trying to use one.

I see here, IM forms a "sparse matrix". But I can still
find instances of things with "Yes" in both column 1 (Windows)
and column 3 (Unix-like = Unix or Linux via X11).

(Unix-like)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ory-simple.svg

Paul

On 2/16/2013 3:37 PM, Paul wrote:
BillW50 wrote:
On 2/16/2013 1:27 PM, Paul wrote:
BillW50 wrote:


All of my Linux machines can't do any heavy lifting. Just simple basic
tasks like browsing, email, and newsgroups and that is about it. Hell
I can't even use the cams since I have no Linux software that can use
them.


Come on. You're smarter than that.

The Linux kernel had web camera support built in, and a lot of drivers
were included. That should allow basic UVC support for example
(UVC being a standard for USB webcams). For cameras that are not
standards
compliant, there is still hope. A few people worked hard to get
hundreds of those stupid non-standard things working. The hard
part with those, is the manufacturers can mix different sensors
with controllers, and it makes work for the Linux webcam developers
to reverse engineer what a Windows custom driver is doing to the camera.

If you're referring to SLR cameras (still pictures), you have the option
of transferring pictures via whatever removable memory card the
camera has.
(Use a USB to SD, USB to Memory Card or whatever.) USB Mass Storage
support
has been around for a while, so I wouldn't expect a problem using a
transfer
method like that.

A still camera could use MTP or USB Mass Storage if it wanted. I expect
Linux
has MTP, but I have nothing here to test with. All I've got is a webcam,
and it works.

The "Cheese" application allows you to take pictures with the webcam.
Look in the package manager for a tool like that and try it out.
The package manager allows you to easily add application support.
The kernels shipped with the distros usually have a maximum of drivers
boiled into them. You'd only need to rebuild a kernel, if you wanted
to speed up the boot process (by removing the drivers you don't need).
The Gentoo LiveCD I've got, takes about 4 minutes to boot, because it
has so many drivers it attempts to load. (Presumably, as a demonstration
of the driver prowess of Linux - having all those old RAID storage cards
supported for example.)

The very first release of kernel with the webcam drivers built in,
wasn't very good. I had a kernel crash when I tried that, on the
second attempt to use the camera. (A kernel crash is not likely to
happen, because the kernel people who supply kernels to the 500
different
distros take great care to test for it. But it happened when they
first boiled in the webcam support. I think they were a little too quick
releasing the first one.) But those teething pains were a
while back, and it's much better now. Any newer distros I've tried
since then, the webcam didn't cause a problem.

Paul

Oh yes, Linux has webcam support built into the OS all right. That
wasn't the problem. The problem is Linux applications that supports a
webcam.

One of the big reason to have webcam isn't to take pictures or a
video, as cameras are better for this. But for instant messaging (IM).
Back in 2008 with my first Linux machine with a webcam, there was
nothing for webcam support for IM. Yet Windows had it all.

Later I guess only Skype can under Linux. But that is it as far as I
know. Trillian is my favorite all around IM software. And you can
download it for Windows, Android, etc. but none for Linux. A Linux
user can use the web based version, but it is really stripped down
version and no webcam support. So Linux always seems to get it last if
any at all.

Even in the Windows world, the various suppliers of IM software
worked to make their product non-compatible with other Windows
IM programs. This means two people would need to use the same tools
to communicate.

You could have cross-platform tools, if the IM client was written
in Java. I don't know if anyone did that or not.

Did you try the package manager ? Were there any
instant messaging programs there ? I don't think
I've ever used IM, and have spent more time disabling
IM tools that function as malware vectors, than actually
trying to use one.

I see here, IM forms a "sparse matrix". But I can still
find instances of things with "Yes" in both column 1 (Windows)
and column 3 (Unix-like = Unix or Linux via X11).

(Unix-like)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ory-simple.svg

Paul

Anything regarding IM for Linux is really stripped down and isn't worth
much. The only thing for IM for Linux is somewhat respectable is Skype,
which I never used for Linux, but what I have heard. Everything else for
Linux is pretty much plain text and that is it.

Are there malware associated with IM software? Yes I have heard this
too. Although all of the attempts I have seen requires user interaction.
Like clicking on a link or something. I suppose this isn't always the
case, but I have never run across it yet.

Does the proprietary IM services foil to disable other third party IM
software? Yes indeed they do. While it has been done time and time
again, Trillian has a team that quickly patches theirs to work with the
changes. I don't know who all works with them, but they are indeed very
good. Others are not so lucky.

Java? Java is a malware magnetic. If that isn't bad enough, Java is very
slow. I guess for some, slow is ok. But I don't like slow coding. Plus
it is more difficult to protect against Java malware.

--
Bill
Dell Latitude Slate Tablet 128GB SSD ('12 era) - Thunderbird v12
Intel Atom Z670 1.5GHz - 2GB - Windows 8 Professional

On 2/16/2013 11:10 PM, BillW50 wrote:
On 2/16/2013 3:37 PM, Paul wrote:
BillW50 wrote:
On 2/16/2013 1:27 PM, Paul wrote:
BillW50 wrote:


All of my Linux machines can't do any heavy lifting. Just simple basic
tasks like browsing, email, and newsgroups and that is about it. Hell
I can't even use the cams since I have no Linux software that can use
them.


Come on. You're smarter than that.

The Linux kernel had web camera support built in, and a lot of drivers
were included. That should allow basic UVC support for example
(UVC being a standard for USB webcams). For cameras that are not
standards
compliant, there is still hope. A few people worked hard to get
hundreds of those stupid non-standard things working. The hard
part with those, is the manufacturers can mix different sensors
with controllers, and it makes work for the Linux webcam developers
to reverse engineer what a Windows custom driver is doing to the
camera.

If you're referring to SLR cameras (still pictures), you have the
option
of transferring pictures via whatever removable memory card the
camera has.
(Use a USB to SD, USB to Memory Card or whatever.) USB Mass Storage
support
has been around for a while, so I wouldn't expect a problem using a
transfer
method like that.

A still camera could use MTP or USB Mass Storage if it wanted. I expect
Linux
has MTP, but I have nothing here to test with. All I've got is a
webcam,
and it works.

The "Cheese" application allows you to take pictures with the webcam.
Look in the package manager for a tool like that and try it out.
The package manager allows you to easily add application support.
The kernels shipped with the distros usually have a maximum of drivers
boiled into them. You'd only need to rebuild a kernel, if you wanted
to speed up the boot process (by removing the drivers you don't need).
The Gentoo LiveCD I've got, takes about 4 minutes to boot, because it
has so many drivers it attempts to load. (Presumably, as a
demonstration
of the driver prowess of Linux - having all those old RAID storage
cards
supported for example.)

The very first release of kernel with the webcam drivers built in,
wasn't very good. I had a kernel crash when I tried that, on the
second attempt to use the camera. (A kernel crash is not likely to
happen, because the kernel people who supply kernels to the 500
different
distros take great care to test for it. But it happened when they
first boiled in the webcam support. I think they were a little too
quick
releasing the first one.) But those teething pains were a
while back, and it's much better now. Any newer distros I've tried
since then, the webcam didn't cause a problem.

Paul

Oh yes, Linux has webcam support built into the OS all right. That
wasn't the problem. The problem is Linux applications that supports a
webcam.

One of the big reason to have webcam isn't to take pictures or a
video, as cameras are better for this. But for instant messaging (IM).
Back in 2008 with my first Linux machine with a webcam, there was
nothing for webcam support for IM. Yet Windows had it all.

Later I guess only Skype can under Linux. But that is it as far as I
know. Trillian is my favorite all around IM software. And you can
download it for Windows, Android, etc. but none for Linux. A Linux
user can use the web based version, but it is really stripped down
version and no webcam support. So Linux always seems to get it last if
any at all.

Even in the Windows world, the various suppliers of IM software
worked to make their product non-compatible with other Windows
IM programs. This means two people would need to use the same tools
to communicate.

You could have cross-platform tools, if the IM client was written
in Java. I don't know if anyone did that or not.

Did you try the package manager ? Were there any
instant messaging programs there ? I don't think
I've ever used IM, and have spent more time disabling
IM tools that function as malware vectors, than actually
trying to use one.

I see here, IM forms a "sparse matrix". But I can still
find instances of things with "Yes" in both column 1 (Windows)
and column 3 (Unix-like = Unix or Linux via X11).

(Unix-like)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ory-simple.svg


Paul

Anything regarding IM for Linux is really stripped down and isn't worth
much. The only thing for IM for Linux is somewhat respectable is Skype,
which I never used for Linux, but what I have heard. Everything else for
Linux is pretty much plain text and that is it.

Are there malware associated with IM software? Yes I have heard this
too. Although all of the attempts I have seen requires user interaction.
Like clicking on a link or something. I suppose this isn't always the
case, but I have never run across it yet.

Does the proprietary IM services foil to disable other third party IM
software? Yes indeed they do. While it has been done time and time
again, Trillian has a team that quickly patches theirs to work with the
changes. I don't know who all works with them, but they are indeed very
good. Others are not so lucky.

Java? Java is a malware magnetic. If that isn't bad enough, Java is very
slow. I guess for some, slow is ok. But I don't like slow coding. Plus
it is more difficult to protect against Java malware.


You can use Google and Skype for video conferencing in Linux. You can
use Cheese for making your own videos and taking still photos. You can
use Pidgin to have all the IMs in one program. There are other programs
that can do that too. Stick to Windows where you can do what you do
best: defrag, reboot, don't update some, update others, buy ten more
tablets and come here and brag about it. Tell people how cool you are
and how long you've been an expert computer guy ad nauseum.

--
Alias

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 16:10:47 -0600, BillW50 wrote:


Anything regarding IM for Linux is really stripped down and isn't worth
much. The only thing for IM for Linux is somewhat respectable is Skype,
which I never used for Linux, but what I have heard. Everything else for
Linux is pretty much plain text and that is it.



you like to get nekkid and show yer junk on that there video skyp?

BillW50 wrote:
On 2/16/2013 3:37 PM, Paul wrote:


(Unix-like)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ory-simple.svg


Paul

Anything regarding IM for Linux is really stripped down and isn't worth
much. The only thing for IM for Linux is somewhat respectable is Skype,
which I never used for Linux, but what I have heard. Everything else for
Linux is pretty much plain text and that is it.

Are there malware associated with IM software? Yes I have heard this
too. Although all of the attempts I have seen requires user interaction.
Like clicking on a link or something. I suppose this isn't always the
case, but I have never run across it yet.

Does the proprietary IM services foil to disable other third party IM
software? Yes indeed they do. While it has been done time and time
again, Trillian has a team that quickly patches theirs to work with the
changes. I don't know who all works with them, but they are indeed very
good. Others are not so lucky.

Java? Java is a malware magnetic. If that isn't bad enough, Java is very
slow. I guess for some, slow is ok. But I don't like slow coding. Plus
it is more difficult to protect against Java malware.

I see I forgot to paste the other link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...saging_clients

That has some useful tables in it.

Paul

BillW50 wrote on [Sat, 16 Feb 2013 16:10:47 -0600]:

Anything regarding IM for Linux is really stripped down and isn't worth
much. The only thing for IM for Linux is somewhat respectable is Skype,
which I never used for Linux, but what I have heard. Everything else for
Linux is pretty much plain text and that is it.

That's what IM is, plain text.

BillW50 wrote on [Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:13:02 -0600]:
On 2/16/2013 12:31 PM, Justin wrote:
BillW50 wrote on [Fri, 15 Feb 2013 19:22:52 -0600]:
Our business runs on a mix of Linux, AIX and WIndows, none of those are
PDA operating systems. The heavy lifting is AIX and Linux and the ones with
the most compatability and least problems run on AIX and Linux. So...

All of my Linux machines can't do any heavy lifting. Just simple basic
tasks like browsing, email, and newsgroups and that is about it. Hell I
can't even use the cams since I have no Linux software that can use them.

What's heavy lifting in your world?

Oh lots of things like TV, gaming, utilities to take control and monitor
of your hardware, etc. And while I have tried StarOffice (I paid for
this one twice), OpenOffice, and LibreOffice, and none of those cut it
for me.

Utilities to take control of hardware. Like what?
Hardware monitoring runs just fine on Linux and all the major system and
application performance and assurance tools seem to work just fine on
Linux, AIX, SOlaris, HPUX, you name it.

Gaming? Funny you should mention that...
http://steamforlinux.com/

On 2/17/2013 7:33 AM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
In ,
wrote:

On 2/16/2013 12:31 PM, Justin wrote:
BillW50 wrote on [Fri, 15 Feb 2013 19:22:52 -0600]:
Our business runs on a mix of Linux, AIX and WIndows, none of those are
PDA operating systems. The heavy lifting is AIX and Linux and the ones
with
the most compatability and least problems run on AIX and Linux. So...

All of my Linux machines can't do any heavy lifting. Just simple basic
tasks like browsing, email, and newsgroups and that is about it. Hell I
can't even use the cams since I have no Linux software that can use them.

What's heavy lifting in your world?

Oh lots of things like TV, gaming, utilities to take control and monitor
of your hardware, etc. And while I have tried StarOffice (I paid for
this one twice), OpenOffice, and LibreOffice, and none of those cut it
for me.

Oh they will, as they become more mature and as Microsoft tries to get
out of the retail market:

http://www.computerworld.com/s/artic...retail_licensi
ng_change_ties_suite_to_specific_PC_forever

I have been waiting for Linux to catch up since '95. Sadly Linus
Torvalds, his father, and his sister even uses Windows. Only Linus'
mother uses Linux. That should tell you something right there.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Thunderbird v12
Centrino Core2 Duo T7400 2.16 GHz - 4GB - Windows 8 Pro w/Media Center