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#61
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Window 8.1 tablets
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 11:54:56 +0100, mechanic
wrote: On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 07:45:03 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote: Alas, I *do* agree with that last statement. I think Microsoft has done a very poor job of making it clear that Windows 8 has two interfaces and you can use either or both. No I think they've made it clear that you can either login to the Desktop, or to a customisable Start screen. Why is that so hard to understand? Why? Because it's not true. Look at the *millions* of Windows 8 users who use the Metro/Modern interface all the time, and don't even realize they have a choice. |
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#62
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Window 8.1 tablets
Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 10/19/2014 7:58 AM, Neil Gould wrote: Bob Henson wrote: On 18/10/2014 8:57 PM, Neil wrote: On 10/18/2014 10:02 AM, Bob Henson wrote: On 18/10/2014 2:46 PM, Wolf K wrote: On 2014-10-18 5:07 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote: [...] If Windows 10 kills anything it will be my interest in using any Microsoft products at all. They*still* don't seem to have realised that whatever may or may not work with fat fingers on a tablet, millions of desktop users don't want a screenful of those tiles. [...] a) you don't have to use Metro if you don't want to; b) sales figures show that most of those desktop users are buying laptops as replacements. a) You *do* have to use Metro, unless you do a lot of modifying to make the desktop usable. There is no menu "out of the box" to use the desktop versions of programs, only the cut-down rubbish in Metro. A non-technical user would never find anything but the Metro apps. There are so many options to address this without "a lot of modifiying" that by now every Win8 user should know them, whether or not they are, like myself, completely uninterested in going that route. b) The same applies to laptops as desktops - they need the same extra programs like Classic Shell to make them usable. Metro only has any real value on a tablet computer or a phone. For those who want to use the same apps on their desktop, with data in sync via a cloud server, that notion is completely useless. So, you're betting on the Luddites, and I'm betting on the rest of the world. ;-) No, you're betting on what you would like to see - but it's not actually like that. What I see is that sales of iPads, Android tablets, and smart phones are trending upward, and sales of desktop PCs are tanking. I'm just not in denial about those facts, so I base my "bets" on the implication of those trends. It looks to me that MS is in agreement with that perspective. You are seeing the results of metoism. Once the fad changed from the cell phone, the numbers will become closer to the way things are in practice. The person who has bought every new apple phone skews the statistics. So, you're betting that desktop PCs are the wave of the future, once everyone has their smartphone? ROFL. People who use their computers for actual work are the ones not upgrading to the newest computer release and the newest operating system. You're disqualifying the "actual work" that people are doing on phones an tablets based on what empirical information??? Some people have been doing "real work" on tablets for decades, and from what I see, that trend is upward. When computers were new, the same group of people increase the sales numbers for new cell phones/tablets were the same people buying the next fastest processor as it was released. Metoism. There are others who don't "upgrade" ('sidegrade' is more like it) unless something useful is brought to the table. -- best regards, Neil |
#63
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/14 3:06 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 15:45:13 -0400, Neil wrote: We've still got those wretched tiles. It's possible to avoid them unless you accidentally select something wrong, then you stumble back into a screenful of them. And they're still there in Windows 10, in the Start menu. Microsoft seem determined at all costs to get us using tiles whether we want them or not. What's wrong with a list? Microsoft most likely doesn't care whether YOU use tiles or not. However, much of the world has changed the way it is working, and folks with phones and tablets have shown to be not the least bit interested in "lists" as a UI. Just ask Blackberry. Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same. I think this is exactly what you have with OS X and iOS. 2 different operating systems, but visually they closer and closer with each new version, and better integration. I don't own any iOS devices, so I'm not sure how well it actually works in practice if you start pushing the systems to the edges. Many of the same apps from Apple exist on both platforms, but the iOS versions lack some of the bells and whistles of he OS X version. The latest versions of Pages, Numbers, and Keynote for OS X have some of the power user features removed from the older versions of the software. It's just a personal suspicion, but possibly Apple is trying to get versions of the programs to a point where the same program runs on both OSes. Even as far back as the Palm OS, users have been pretty clear about their preferences for a GUI, and today, it's a no-brainer that it's the only thing that WILL sell. Thanks to the near monopoly position occupied by Microsoft, for many people in practice it's the only thing available. If it's the only thing selling, that's why. Luckily it's not the only thing selling on Ebay. Metro/Modern is the integrating UI for those devices and having "the app that you know" available on the desktop can't be that hard to understand, can it? I don't find it hard to understand that a phone works like a phone and a computer works like a computer. Trying to make them both work the same way seems pointless and can only end up with a compromise. I think it's a good thing that, even in 8.1, you can choose to use Tiles or avoid them entirely. While I had Windows 8.1 on my laptop, I tried to choose to avoid the tiles entirely, but it wasn't easy. I'd still occasionally stumble into a screenful of them, or some unfamiliar application that filled the screen and was difficult to discard. Rod. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.5 Firefox 25.0 Thunderbird 24.6.0 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
#64
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/14 6:06 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 10/19/2014 5:06 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote: On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 15:45:13 -0400, Neil wrote: We've still got those wretched tiles. It's possible to avoid them unless you accidentally select something wrong, then you stumble back into a screenful of them. And they're still there in Windows 10, in the Start menu. Microsoft seem determined at all costs to get us using tiles whether we want them or not. What's wrong with a list? Microsoft most likely doesn't care whether YOU use tiles or not. However, much of the world has changed the way it is working, and folks with phones and tablets have shown to be not the least bit interested in "lists" as a UI. Just ask Blackberry. Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same. Even as far back as the Palm OS, users have been pretty clear about their preferences for a GUI, and today, it's a no-brainer that it's the only thing that WILL sell. Thanks to the near monopoly position occupied by Microsoft, for many people in practice it's the only thing available. If it's the only thing selling, that's why. Luckily it's not the only thing selling on Ebay. Metro/Modern is the integrating UI for those devices and having "the app that you know" available on the desktop can't be that hard to understand, can it? I don't find it hard to understand that a phone works like a phone and a computer works like a computer. Trying to make them both work the same way seems pointless and can only end up with a compromise. I think it's a good thing that, even in 8.1, you can choose to use Tiles or avoid them entirely. While I had Windows 8.1 on my laptop, I tried to choose to avoid the tiles entirely, but it wasn't easy. I'd still occasionally stumble into a screenful of them, or some unfamiliar application that filled the screen and was difficult to discard. Rod. That is the biggest drawback to Windows 8.1. Once you open a Metro program in in nearly impossible to close that program. YES MS brought the Upper X to close the Window, but that does not close the program. Working with a mouse exclusively the only option is to kill it in the Task Manager. If you hit the Windows Key on the key board it will get you out of most Metro programs. Doesn't the Modern Mix utility solve this? I haven't installed it, so I've not used it. And what I've read in places about Windows 10, it runs Metro Apps in a window. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.5 Firefox 25.0 Thunderbird 24.6.0 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
#65
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/2014 07:00 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
snip What Menu System do you want. When you right click on the MS icon you get a complete menu of the computer functions. In the Control Panel if you click View By in the upper right corner and change to large/Small Icons, you have a screen quite similar to the one in Windows XP. In many of the screens from the Right Click MS Icon menu, have the ability to change the display to another view, Another eexample is Network Connections But the problem is most of us are so used to left clicking on the "start" button that we end up with the tiles (by mistake) from time to time. I find it annoying and all the people I need to deal with find it just plain frightening. No one has ever posted a way to get rid of that horrible annoyance other than by the use of a third party application such as Classic Shell. |
#66
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 19/10/2014 1:06 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 10/19/2014 5:06 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote: On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 15:45:13 -0400, Neil wrote: We've still got those wretched tiles. It's possible to avoid them unless you accidentally select something wrong, then you stumble back into a screenful of them. And they're still there in Windows 10, in the Start menu. Microsoft seem determined at all costs to get us using tiles whether we want them or not. What's wrong with a list? Microsoft most likely doesn't care whether YOU use tiles or not. However, much of the world has changed the way it is working, and folks with phones and tablets have shown to be not the least bit interested in "lists" as a UI. Just ask Blackberry. Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same. Even as far back as the Palm OS, users have been pretty clear about their preferences for a GUI, and today, it's a no-brainer that it's the only thing that WILL sell. Thanks to the near monopoly position occupied by Microsoft, for many people in practice it's the only thing available. If it's the only thing selling, that's why. Luckily it's not the only thing selling on Ebay. Metro/Modern is the integrating UI for those devices and having "the app that you know" available on the desktop can't be that hard to understand, can it? I don't find it hard to understand that a phone works like a phone and a computer works like a computer. Trying to make them both work the same way seems pointless and can only end up with a compromise. I think it's a good thing that, even in 8.1, you can choose to use Tiles or avoid them entirely. While I had Windows 8.1 on my laptop, I tried to choose to avoid the tiles entirely, but it wasn't easy. I'd still occasionally stumble into a screenful of them, or some unfamiliar application that filled the screen and was difficult to discard. Rod. That is the biggest drawback to Windows 8.1. Once you open a Metro program in in nearly impossible to close that program. YES MS brought the Upper X to close the Window, but that does not close the program. Working with a mouse exclusively the only option is to kill it in the Task Manager. If you hit the Windows Key on the key board it will get you out of most Metro programs. Doesn't ALT-F4 close them? -- Bob Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK Did you hear about the cow that liked jazz? It mooed indigo. |
#67
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/14 8:27 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote: On 10/19/2014 7:53 AM, Neil Gould wrote: Caver1 wrote: On 10/18/2014 03:57 PM, Neil wrote: snip When working on the net I have my browser and email programs open so I can see them in different parts of the screen, you can not do the well on a tablet. That is a personal preference, and it just may be that your personal preferences aren't well-suited to "the new ways", but that doesn't invalidate the new ways! ;-) But, in some ways, these "new ways" seem to be a return to the old ways. I.E. working on a 12" monochrome monitor when it comes to the information visible to the user, at a reasonable text size for reading. It looks like I'm like Keith in this regard. I learned a long time ago, the bigger the monitor with as high a resolution as my eyes could see, the more productive I was, as well as a higher level of enjoying whatever it was I was trying to accomplish. It's like having a major paper to write, or project you're working on. You can spread all your information around on a card table (12" 4:3 monitor) or a large dinner table (24" 16:9 or 16:10 monitor). Which is going to give you the quickest access to the resource you need at the moment? For the same reasons, I find using virtual desktops to be easier for me. And I rarely run any window maximized. An exception to this maximized idea has just popped up for me in the last week. And that is creating a simple macro to do some repetitive work that will involve mouse movements and mouse clicks. To do this, I will have to ensure the appropriate mouse button is always in the same spot for the macro to run to completion. snip -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.5 Firefox 25.0 Thunderbird 24.6.0 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
#68
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/14 8:36 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote: On 10/19/2014 7:58 AM, Neil Gould wrote: Bob Henson wrote: On 18/10/2014 8:57 PM, Neil wrote: On 10/18/2014 10:02 AM, Bob Henson wrote: On 18/10/2014 2:46 PM, Wolf K wrote: On 2014-10-18 5:07 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote: snip People who use their computers for actual work are the ones not upgrading to the newest computer release and the newest operating system. You're disqualifying the "actual work" that people are doing on phones an tablets based on what empirical information??? Some people have been doing "real work" on tablets for decades, and from what I see, that trend is upward. Don't we have to define what "actual work"/"real work" is? If what you are doing is simply posting family photos to Facebook, or something like that, it would qualify as "real work" to you, and tablets and phones are just fine. But, if the work you're doing is War and Peace Part 2, or designing the next passenger airliner, that "real work" isn't going to be done a tablet or smart phone. snip -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.5 Firefox 25.0 Thunderbird 24.6.0 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
#69
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 10/19/14 2:46 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 18/10/2014 9:14 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote: On 10/18/2014 10:53 AM, philo wrote: On 10/18/2014 09:03 AM, Bob Henson wrote: That's correct and exactly the reason I think Microsoft got it wrong. Too many people just knows computers by rote and to even figure out how to switch from Metro to Classic is beyond their capability. I upgraded to 8.1 from 8.0, and it defaulted to the desktop, not Metro. I think I read somewhere that 8.1 checks to see if you have a touch screen. If so, it defaults to Metro. If not, it defaults to the desktop. You can *make* 8.1 default to the desktop, but as installed it defaults to Metro. True, but what I found annoying is that if one hits the wrong key somewhere, it pops back over to Metro. Installing a 3rd party program such as Classic Shell fixes that. You do not need a 3rd party program to make these fixes. Most can be done from the Properties Navigation tab on the Desktop. The rest can be changed by right clicking on the MS Icon on the Desktop Toolbar, and selecting Control Panel. Many are in the Appearance and Personalization section. How do you add back a working menu system without a third party program? Off on to a slightly different but related tangent, in all the discussions about making Win 8.x look like Win 7 and before by restoring a more traditional Start Menu, no one ever mentions the Quick Launch bar that's in XP and Vista. To me, that's the same function as pinning an app to the taskbar in 7 & 8. But the pinned icons are large than the icons in the Quick Launch bar, taking up more space. I've restored the Quick Launch bar in my 7 & 8 systems. So apps that would be pinned to the task bar are now in the Quick Launch bar, and take up less room in the taskbar overall. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.5 Firefox 25.0 Thunderbird 24.6.0 "My brain is like lightning, a quick flash and it's gone!" |
#70
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 14-10-19 12:47 PM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2014-10-19 12:31 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 10/19/14 8:36 AM, Neil Gould wrote: Keith Nuttle wrote: On 10/19/2014 7:58 AM, Neil Gould wrote: Bob Henson wrote: On 18/10/2014 8:57 PM, Neil wrote: On 10/18/2014 10:02 AM, Bob Henson wrote: On 18/10/2014 2:46 PM, Wolf K wrote: On 2014-10-18 5:07 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote: snip People who use their computers for actual work are the ones not upgrading to the newest computer release and the newest operating system. You're disqualifying the "actual work" that people are doing on phones an tablets based on what empirical information??? Some people have been doing "real work" on tablets for decades, and from what I see, that trend is upward. Don't we have to define what "actual work"/"real work" is? If what you are doing is simply posting family photos to Facebook, or something like that, it would qualify as "real work" to you, and tablets and phones are just fine. But, if the work you're doing is War and Peace Part 2, or designing the next passenger airliner, that "real work" isn't going to be done a tablet or smart phone. snip Yup, and there are thousands, thousands I tell you, of people writing War and Peace and designing passenger airliners. :-) I love his statement and your response. The sad part is that of the say 100% of people in the world using computers, perhaps 5% of them actually need one for their work. The rest use them for entertainment. That 95% market of people using their computers for entertainment are the ones that manufacturers will be catering to in producing new tablets, ultrabooks and smartphones. The technology is incredibly advanced and used to distract the populace rather than to help them produce anything of worth. -- Silver Slimer OpenMedia Supporter www.silverlips.ca Recipient of overwhelmingly positive reviews among the GNU/Linux advocates: - "Low life at its best. But thats what you are. Worth a lot less than stinking contaminated dirt" - Peter Köhlmann - "He's a rotten POS." - Chris Ahlstrom - "He's a troll, that's his stock and trade." - RonB |
#71
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Window 8.1 tablets
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 08:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote: Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same. I think this is exactly what you have with OS X and iOS. 2 different operating systems, but visually they closer and closer with each new version, and better integration. It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem before, so why is it suddenly a problem now? Rod. |
#72
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Window 8.1 tablets
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 11:19:02 -0400, Wolf K
wrote: [...] Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same. [...] Agreed, but they should look and function the same, allowing for differences such as screen size/orientation, touch, etc. Why?!! Who says so? What on earth is wrong with different gadgets looking like what they are and behaving differently because they are different? The controls on my TV don't look like the ones on my washing machine, and none of them look like the controls on the microwave, but it's never been a problem, and I can't imagine how any attempt to harmonise them would improve anything. Rod. |
#73
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Window 8.1 tablets
On 19/10/2014 6:33 PM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 11:19:02 -0400, Wolf K wrote: [...] Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same. [...] Agreed, but they should look and function the same, allowing for differences such as screen size/orientation, touch, etc. Why?!! Who says so? What on earth is wrong with different gadgets looking like what they are and behaving differently because they are different? The controls on my TV don't look like the ones on my washing machine, and none of them look like the controls on the microwave, but it's never been a problem, and I can't imagine how any attempt to harmonise them would improve anything. Rod. Neither can I. My computers and laptop run Windows 7 but my phones runs Android - which knocks the spots of Windows on a phone. My other half has a tablet that runs Android - they all talk to one another just fine. -- Bob Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK A hangover is the wrath of grapes. |
#74
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Window 8.1 tablets
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 11:54:56 +0100, mechanic
wrote: Alas, I *do* agree with that last statement. I think Microsoft has done a very poor job of making it clear that Windows 8 has two interfaces and you can use either or both. No I think they've made it clear that you can either login to the Desktop, or to a customisable Start screen. Why is that so hard to understand? Windows 8/8.1 doesn't make anything very clear at all. For example, you have to try to install it a few times before you even realise that it's possible to install it without creating a Microsoft account. I don't want a Microsoft account, just a computer that works. There is a point where you have to click a button to say yes to the creation of an online account (because there is no other option if you want to proceed) knowing from previous experience that the *next* page will allow you to bypass this and simply install the system. Rod. |
#75
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Window 8.1 tablets
Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 2:46 AM, Bob Henson wrote: On 18/10/2014 9:14 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote: On 10/18/2014 10:53 AM, philo wrote: On 10/18/2014 09:03 AM, Bob Henson wrote: That's correct and exactly the reason I think Microsoft got it wrong. Too many people just knows computers by rote and to even figure out how to switch from Metro to Classic is beyond their capability. I upgraded to 8.1 from 8.0, and it defaulted to the desktop, not Metro. I think I read somewhere that 8.1 checks to see if you have a touch screen. If so, it defaults to Metro. If not, it defaults to the desktop. You can *make* 8.1 default to the desktop, but as installed it defaults to Metro. True, but what I found annoying is that if one hits the wrong key somewhere, it pops back over to Metro. Installing a 3rd party program such as Classic Shell fixes that. You do not need a 3rd party program to make these fixes. Most can be done from the Properties Navigation tab on the Desktop. The rest can be changed by right clicking on the MS Icon on the Desktop Toolbar, and selecting Control Panel. Many are in the Appearance and Personalization section. How do you add back a working menu system without a third party program? Off on to a slightly different but related tangent, in all the discussions about making Win 8.x look like Win 7 and before by restoring a more traditional Start Menu, no one ever mentions the Quick Launch bar that's in XP and Vista. To me, that's the same function as pinning an app to the taskbar in 7 & 8. But the pinned icons are large than the icons in the Quick Launch bar, taking up more space. I've restored the Quick Launch bar in my 7 & 8 systems. So apps that would be pinned to the task bar are now in the Quick Launch bar, and take up less room in the taskbar overall. +1 I've commented numerous times on the the ability to add the Quick Launch Tool Bar. I rarely ever use/used the Start since Win98SE. Just about every program I use/need is added (in a common sequence since XP release over 10 yrs ago) to the QLTB with a few select items on the default Task Bar to take advantage of pinned and recent items. I also have a Windows Search icon on the Task Bar. I also like the ability to flip to the Modern UI (cleaned of unnecessary apps and programs though still retaining tiles for my most used applications) for select apps Many of those who complain about the Modern UI presence whether used or not (and quite often recommending a design return to an obsolete o/s feature) are the same people with the skills to adapt to or modify Win8x (and probably Win10) to whatever mode or combination of modes they prefer (Modern UI, Desktop, 3rd party)... -- ....winston msft mvp consumer apps |
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