Intel junk...Kernel-memory-leaking Intel processor design flaw forcesLinux, Windows redesign

On 01/08/2018 03:57 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Doomsdrzej wrote:

Yes, the fact that Chrysler ends up on the very bottom of all
reliability lists by experts must all be coincidence too. It's
probably best that I ignore that and listen to some random person on
Usenet.

As a former Lada owner, I have to say that no matter how bad you think a
car can be, it can be worse.
--scott


I'll see your Lada and raise you one Skoda.
Never owned one but often heard them described in Europe as
farm tractors with a radio.

bill

chrisv wrote:
DaveFroble wrote:

chrisv wrote:
for a gas powered vehicle, the engine must be running.

not true for an electric vehicle.
Very interesting to know, thanks.
Well, duh. The heater's not working off from engine coolant...
Think about this. That waste heat wasn't free. It's unused energy. That means
you've had to put much more potential into the gasoline engine to get what you
need. With electric, less energy is required. Of course, the heat is nice when
it's cold. Still, from an energy perspective, the gasoline engine is rather
wasteful.

That's a shift of the subject, which was range under worst-case
conditions.

Since you bring-up efficiency, I wonder what the total efficiency of
the electric system is. Waste in the generation process. Waste in
the distribution process. Waste in the charging and discharging of
the batteries. Waste in the electric motor.


The sorry thing about this is that some people are dragging me down to their
level, and observers won't be able to tell us apart ....

Refining the gas, transporting the gas, pumping the gas, etc.

I wasn't aware there was a subject in this thread.

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail:
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

Bill Gunshannon wrote:
On 01/08/2018 11:48 AM, DaveFroble wrote:
chrisv wrote:
Doomsdrzej, AKA "Slimer", wrote:

nospam wrote:
the batteries are heated and shortly before leaving, you can preheat
the cabin via a smartphone app.
_How_ are they heated?
via a heater module on the batteries.

Which is fine, if you're plugged-in. Otherwise, you're sucking
battery power.

Pre-heating the cabin essentially means that you've turned on the car
remotely. However, this is only possible if the car starts which, of
course, often requires the batteries to be heated.
for a gas powered vehicle, the engine must be running.

not true for an electric vehicle.
Very interesting to know, thanks.

Well, duh. The heater's not working off from engine coolant...


Think about this. That waste heat wasn't free. It's unused energy.
That means you've had to put much more potential into the gasoline
engine to get what you need. With electric, less energy is required.
Of course, the heat is nice when it's cold. Still, from an energy
perspective, the gasoline engine is rather wasteful.


Try tracing the power from the battery in the car all the way back
to it's origination. Take all the "efficiencies" into consideration.
Now tell me how wasteful the gasoline engine really is.

bill


Gasoline is one of the most dense and portable sources of energy we use. It's
also a bit dirty. No one good answer here. But electricity is improving.

Should we discuss that recent collision of a freighter and tanker?

--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail:
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
Den 2018-01-08 kl. 20:22, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
On 01/08/2018 11:48 AM, DaveFroble wrote:
chrisv wrote:
Doomsdrzej, AKA "Slimer", wrote:

nospam wrote:
the batteries are heated and shortly before leaving, you can
preheat
the cabin via a smartphone app.
_How_ are they heated?
via a heater module on the batteries.

Which is fine, if you're plugged-in. Otherwise, you're sucking
battery power.

Pre-heating the cabin essentially means that you've turned on the
car
remotely. However, this is only possible if the car starts which, of
course, often requires the batteries to be heated.
for a gas powered vehicle, the engine must be running.

not true for an electric vehicle.
Very interesting to know, thanks.

Well, duh. The heater's not working off from engine coolant...


Think about this. That waste heat wasn't free. It's unused energy.
That means you've had to put much more potential into the gasoline
engine to get what you need. With electric, less energy is required.
Of course, the heat is nice when it's cold. Still, from an energy
perspective, the gasoline engine is rather wasteful.


Try tracing the power from the battery in the car all the way back
to it's origination. Take all the "efficiencies" into consideration.
Now tell me how wasteful the gasoline engine really is.

bill


The problem is not efficient of the engine is as such. The problem is
that it in most cases is burning fosile fules and releasing CO2 that
was "in the loop" millions of years ago.

If you run the gasoline engine on bio-fuels produced from plants
growing *today*, there is no issue with the C02 emissions.



Actually, yes, there is. We've already caused the problems, and we have to do
better than "just even" to attempt to reverse some things.


--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail:
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486

Den 2018-01-08 kl. 21:05, skrev chrisv:
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

Think about this.* That waste heat wasn't free.* It's unused energy. That
means you've had to put much more potential into the gasoline engine to
get what you need.* With electric, less energy is required. Of course,
the heat is nice when it's cold.* Still, from an energy perspective, the
gasoline engine is rather wasteful.

Try tracing the power from the battery in the car all the way back
to it's origination.* Take all the "efficiencies" into consideration.
Now tell me how wasteful the gasoline engine really is.

The problem is not efficient of the engine is as such. The problem is
that it in most cases is burning fosile fules and releasing CO2 that
was "in the loop" millions of years ago.

Yet another subject shift.

Much of our electricity comes from burning coal or natural gas, BTW.


With “our” I guess you are talking of the world at large, right? How
electricity is produced is highly depending on where you live. But, of
course, the electricity generation must also switch to renewable sources.
There is no difference in electricity generation from driving combustion
engines in that regard. It has both to minimize the use of fossil fuels.

But there are also a lot of other things that has to be done. Such us
moving the real short distances work travels to cycling, where that
works, or to community transportation. And of course a continued move
of the car fleet to smaller and less gasoline hungry models. The most
environment friendly mile is the mile that was never travelled.

Den 2018-01-08 kl. 21:56, skrev Scott Dorsey:
Bill Gunshannon wrote:


Try tracing the power from the battery in the car all the way back
to it's origination. Take all the "efficiencies" into consideration.
Now tell me how wasteful the gasoline engine really is.

It's not bad. Depending on where you are, you can figure the overall
loss between the plant and your doorstep to be between 10% and 15%.
(Mind you if you live in some place like Hawaii where the grid is rather
small, it can be better than that).

Efficiency of the power plant itself isn't so good, it's on the order
of a 35% loss on the average.

A water powered electrical station has an average loss of 10%.
A coal powered electrical station has an everage loss of approx 60%.

Can be better in some places, worse in others
but that's about typical for coal or gas fired systems. (Now, if you live
in someplace like Hawaii it's worse than that because you have to take into
account the waste in getting the coal out to you which is pretty substantial
in such places.)

Efficiency of the motors is very close to 100%. I don't know what the
efficiency of the battery is and that could be a big issue although that's
a thing that is still improving.

Figure typical gasoline engines have maybe 10% to 30% efficiency. Again that
is a ballpark number... you can guarantee that an Olds 442 in stop and go
traffic isn't going to get anything like that, and you might do better than
that on the highway with a small modern engine.

But I'm thinking if you did the math more precisely it would tend to be a
tossup.
--scott

Den 2018-01-08 kl. 22:02, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
On 01/08/2018 02:59 PM, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
Den 2018-01-08 kl. 20:22, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
On 01/08/2018 11:48 AM, DaveFroble wrote:
chrisv wrote:
Doomsdrzej, AKA "Slimer", wrote:

nospam wrote:
the batteries are heated and shortly before leaving, you can preheat
the cabin via a smartphone app.
_How_ are they heated?
via a heater module on the batteries.

Which is fine, if you're plugged-in.Â* Otherwise, you're sucking
battery power.

Pre-heating the cabin essentially means that you've turned on the car
remotely. However, this is only possible if the car starts which, of
course, often requires the batteries to be heated.
for a gas powered vehicle, the engine must be running.

not true for an electric vehicle.
Very interesting to know, thanks.

Well, duh.Â* The heater's not working off from engine coolant...


Think about this.Â* That waste heat wasn't free.Â* It's unused energy.
That means you've had to put much more potential into the gasoline
engine to get what you need.Â* With electric, less energy is required.
Of course, the heat is nice when it's cold.Â* Still, from an energy
perspective, the gasoline engine is rather wasteful.


Try tracing the power from the battery in the car all the way back
to it's origination.Â* Take all the "efficiencies" into consideration.
Now tell me how wasteful the gasoline engine really is.

bill


The problem is not efficient of the engine is as such. The problem is
that it in most cases is burning fosile fules and releasing CO2 that
was "in the loop" millions of years ago.

How do you think they generated the electricity to charge your
car?

Water power stations, to the largest part.

With inefficiencies on the generating end as well as the
using end.

Water power stations has the lowest losses of all types.

Den 2018-01-08 kl. 22:53, skrev Tim Streater:
In article , Jan-Erik Soderholm
wrote:

If you run the gasoline engine on bio-fuels produced from plants
growing *today*, there is no issue with the C02 emissions.

Except that takes huge amounts of land.


Yes, will not work withot a huge reduction in the amount of
traditional car travels. And that will happen in a decade or two.

Den 2018-01-08 kl. 22:56, skrev DaveFroble:
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
Den 2018-01-08 kl. 20:22, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
On 01/08/2018 11:48 AM, DaveFroble wrote:
chrisv wrote:
Doomsdrzej, AKA "Slimer", wrote:

nospam wrote:
the batteries are heated and shortly before leaving, you can preheat
the cabin via a smartphone app.
_How_ are they heated?
via a heater module on the batteries.

Which is fine, if you're plugged-in.Â* Otherwise, you're sucking
battery power.

Pre-heating the cabin essentially means that you've turned on the car
remotely. However, this is only possible if the car starts which, of
course, often requires the batteries to be heated.
for a gas powered vehicle, the engine must be running.

not true for an electric vehicle.
Very interesting to know, thanks.

Well, duh.Â* The heater's not working off from engine coolant...


Think about this.Â* That waste heat wasn't free.Â* It's unused energy.
That means you've had to put much more potential into the gasoline
engine to get what you need.Â* With electric, less energy is required.
Of course, the heat is nice when it's cold.Â* Still, from an energy
perspective, the gasoline engine is rather wasteful.


Try tracing the power from the battery in the car all the way back
to it's origination.Â* Take all the "efficiencies" into consideration.
Now tell me how wasteful the gasoline engine really is.

bill


The problem is not efficient of the engine is as such. The problem is
that it in most cases is burning fosile fules and releasing CO2 that
was "in the loop" millions of years ago.

If you run the gasoline engine on bio-fuels produced from plants
growing *today*, there is no issue with the C02 emissions.



Actually, yes, there is.Â* We've already caused the problems, and we have to
do better than "just even" to attempt to reverse some things.



Burning bio-fuels has an zero impact on the CO2 levels. There is exactly
the same amount of CO2 released as was bound in the plats while thay grow.

On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 20:56:16 +0100, Jan-Erik Soderholm
wrote:

Den 2018-01-08 kl. 19:10, skrev Doomsdrzej:
On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 12:11:20 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Doomsdrzej
wrote:


If you buy a Chrysler, you can expect a problem every 500 miles.

nonsense.

I speak as someone who actually owned a Chrysler and know just how
awful they are.


To juge a whole car brand from one single car is just as trying to
juge the Global Warming from the amount of snow on ones own backyard.

You're right. I should have bought another Jeep after the awful
experience with my Patriot just to make sure that they're not all bad.
What a moron I was to complement my super-reliable BMW 428i with an
Infiniti QX30 when I could have gotten a Dodge Caravan!

Seriously though, Chrysler and its subsidiaries are at the bottom of
*every* reliability list. In fact, I bought the Jeep to prove to
myself and the world that the brand WASN'T bad and that it was merely
soiled by the fact that its owners took poor care of the vehicles.
Seven years of misery and repairs later and I will never touch another
Chrysler again. I might give GM a chance one day but I doubt it.

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 21:55:47 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , Bill Gunshannon
wrote:

On 01/08/2018 02:59 PM, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

If you run the gasoline engine on bio-fuels produced from plants
growing *today*, there is no issue with the C02 emissions.

Funny, Europe seems to have changed their tune on that one lately.

Well the stupid Germans shut down a lot of their non-polluting nukes,
in favour of old power stations burning lignite (the worst possible
fuel you could use). That's what happens with their stupid political
system.

The same political system that assumed that importing a million
low-IQ, rapey and murdery Muslim negroes from Africa was going to be a
great idea?

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 21:56:56 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , Doomsdrzej
wrote:

On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 13:26:43 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Doomsdrzej
wrote:


If you buy a Chrysler, you can expect a problem every 500 miles.

nonsense.

I speak as someone who actually owned a Chrysler and know just how
awful they are.

myself and family members have owned several chrysler vehicles and
found them to be exceptionally reliable, to the tune of over 200k
miles.

you must have had a lemon.

Yes, the fact that Chrysler ends up on the very bottom of all
reliability lists by experts must all be coincidence too. It's
probably best that I ignore that and listen to some random person on
Usenet.

Well you're a very random person on Usenet. Remind me to ignore
everything you say.

I'll try to handle the humiliation!

Den 2018-01-08 kl. 23:42, skrev Doomsdrzej:
On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 20:56:16 +0100, Jan-Erik Soderholm
wrote:

Den 2018-01-08 kl. 19:10, skrev Doomsdrzej:
On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 12:11:20 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Doomsdrzej
wrote:


If you buy a Chrysler, you can expect a problem every 500 miles.

nonsense.

I speak as someone who actually owned a Chrysler and know just how
awful they are.


To juge a whole car brand from one single car is just as trying to
juge the Global Warming from the amount of snow on ones own backyard.

You're right. I should have bought another Jeep after the awful
experience with my Patriot just to make sure that they're not all bad.
What a moron I was to complement my super-reliable BMW 428i with an
Infiniti QX30 when I could have gotten a Dodge Caravan!

Seriously though, Chrysler and its subsidiaries are at the bottom of
*every* reliability list. In fact, I bought the Jeep to prove to
myself and the world that the brand WASN'T bad and that it was merely
soiled by the fact that its owners took poor care of the vehicles.
Seven years of misery and repairs later and I will never touch another
Chrysler again. I might give GM a chance one day but I doubt it.


OK.

Not that it matters a bit (single instances are not proof of anyway)
but we have had our Chrysler Voyager -03 since it was brand new. Has
worked just fine with very few issues. Now it's is time to switch to
something less fuel hungry, but that is another story...

Just as little as our Voyager is a proof of the high reliability of Chrysler
as a brand, is the Chryslers that you happened to have any proof of
the low high reliability of Chrysler as a brand. It might just as well be
that we was lucky and you were not. That happens.

Den 2018-01-08 kl. 23:47, skrev Doomsdrzej:
On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 21:55:47 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote:

In article , Bill Gunshannon
wrote:

On 01/08/2018 02:59 PM, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

If you run the gasoline engine on bio-fuels produced from plants
growing *today*, there is no issue with the C02 emissions.

Funny, Europe seems to have changed their tune on that one lately.

Well the stupid Germans shut down a lot of their non-polluting nukes,
in favour of old power stations burning lignite (the worst possible
fuel you could use). That's what happens with their stupid political
system.

The same political system that assumed that importing a million
low-IQ, rapey and murdery Muslim negroes from Africa was going to be a
great idea?


Those that thought so has left the government. This has nothing to
do with any "politcal system"...

On 01/08/2018 4:42 PM, Doomsdrzej wrote:
On Mon, 8 Jan 2018 20:56:16 +0100, Jan-Erik Soderholm
wrote:

Den 2018-01-08 kl. 19:10, skrev Doomsdrzej:
On Mon, 08 Jan 2018 12:11:20 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Doomsdrzej
wrote:


If you buy a Chrysler, you can expect a problem every 500 miles.

nonsense.

I speak as someone who actually owned a Chrysler and know just how
awful they are.


To juge a whole car brand from one single car is just as trying to
juge the Global Warming from the amount of snow on ones own backyard.

You're right. I should have bought another Jeep after the awful
experience with my Patriot just to make sure that they're not all bad.
What a moron I was to complement my super-reliable BMW 428i with an
Infiniti QX30 when I could have gotten a Dodge Caravan!

Seriously though, Chrysler and its subsidiaries are at the bottom of
*every* reliability list. In fact, I bought the Jeep to prove to
myself and the world that the brand WASN'T bad and that it was merely
soiled by the fact that its owners took poor care of the vehicles.
Seven years of misery and repairs later and I will never touch another
Chrysler again. I might give GM a chance one day but I doubt it.


The Jeeps I have worked on over the years where all junk.
The Gm Silverdos trucks were all pretty good.
The Caravans where super scrap material.

Rene