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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist



 
 
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  #31  
Old December 27th 03, 02:09 PM
Lorne Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message
...
"Testy" wrote in message
.. .
Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and have

every
maker include a full CD.


Testy,

Is that just force the OEM to provide a full white box disk OEM CD ROM; or
end the whole program of OEM product requiring OEM support and actually

ship
a Retail CD?
If the later - would the market stand the increase in cost (passed onto

the
consumer) for the support of all those millions and millions of OEM
customers now having to come to Microsoft ?

If just force the OEM CD ROM in the package with the PC - then interesting
idea.
--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

I've suggest the latter before on several occaisions.... The lack of a
proper Windows disc from an OEM is a real pain in the @r$3

Lorne



Ads
  #32  
Old December 27th 03, 02:10 PM
Amethyst
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Will Denny wrote:
Hi Cass

I've stopped my attacks on MVPs - perhaps you could lower you
language a tad.

Will



Sorry Will? AFAIK, I wasn't attacking an MVP - I was attacking the moron who
sent the original rant (which didn't appear on my server) not Mike who's a
really good guy (rather like yourself) - there was no way I was attacking
him and I apologise to him unreservedly if he took it that way...



Cass

--
Cassandra
Card carrying member of the Fresh Start Club 'The Undead Are People
Too!'

Reply address is fake. Please send all praise, abuse, insults, bequests
of £1million to cassandra (at) craigy34 (dot) freeserve (dot) co (dot)
uk. Change the obvious to the obvious.
Private requests for assistance will not be acknowledged. Please post
all correspondence to the group so that all may benefit. Thank you.


  #33  
Old December 27th 03, 02:11 PM
Graham
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist


"Mister Charlie" wrote in message
...

"David Banks" wrote in message
...


I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own
Customer
Services Handbook:-

'Dear Neil

I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex

and
navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be

frustrating
but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the

answers to
your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope

that
we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very

frustrating
problem to you.
Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any

further
queries or problems.'

David

Let me assure you that that sort of prepackaged PR drivel is JUST as
frustrating as the runaround the OP describes.

Mike gave a direct answer to both the OP's hostility (understandable
given MS's and OEM's lack of any real help) and to his problems. Seems
like a perfectly good post to me.



It did not sound like a runaround from Microsoft, they ask for the serial
number, you give it, they say sorry, we do not support a product we did not
supply. Please go see the Original Equipment Manufacturer. This the reason
the OEM is $200 less than the retail version for home and $300 for pro.


  #34  
Old December 27th 03, 02:11 PM
Mike Brannigan [MSFT]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

I knew you weren't talkin' about me :-)

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups

"Amethyst" wrote in message
...
Will Denny wrote:
Hi Cass

I've stopped my attacks on MVPs - perhaps you could lower you
language a tad.

Will



Sorry Will? AFAIK, I wasn't attacking an MVP - I was attacking the moron

who
sent the original rant (which didn't appear on my server) not Mike who's a
really good guy (rather like yourself) - there was no way I was attacking
him and I apologise to him unreservedly if he took it that way...



Cass

--
Cassandra
Card carrying member of the Fresh Start Club 'The Undead Are People
Too!'

Reply address is fake. Please send all praise, abuse, insults, bequests
of £1million to cassandra (at) craigy34 (dot) freeserve (dot) co (dot)
uk. Change the obvious to the obvious.
Private requests for assistance will not be acknowledged. Please post
all correspondence to the group so that all may benefit. Thank you.




  #35  
Old December 27th 03, 02:12 PM
Gerry Cornell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Mike

Do some OEM suppliers remove components? If yes then they could run the =
risk of a claim for damages for misrepresentation if they call it =
Windows XP etc by customers and court actions initiated by Trading =
Standards.=20

--=20

~~~~~~

Regards.

Gerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message =
...
"Testy" wrote in message
.. .
Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and =

have
every
maker include a full CD.

=20
Testy,
=20
Is that just force the OEM to provide a full white box disk OEM CD =

ROM; or
end the whole program of OEM product requiring OEM support and =

actually ship
a Retail CD?
If the later - would the market stand the increase in cost (passed =

onto the
consumer) for the support of all those millions and millions of OEM
customers now having to come to Microsoft ?
=20
If just force the OEM CD ROM in the package with the PC - then =

interesting
idea.
--=20
Regards,
=20
Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]
=20
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights
=20
Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these
newsgroups
=20
"Testy" wrote in message
.. .
Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and =

have
every
maker include a full CD.

Testy

"David Banks" wrote in message
...
Hi

Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was =

intended I
do
think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the =

Windows
product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM.

All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the =

basics
of
the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have =

never
yet
had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both

Microsoft
and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how

anybody
without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the =

'buck-passing'
atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.

There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will =

probably
turn
out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as =

has
been
done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib =

answers on
how
stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the =

response by
Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like =

it, you
know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, =

since
when
has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go

elsewhere'
to
the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a =

bit
'high
minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that =

the
public have of the organisation.

I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing =

out the
obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the =

message
'read
my
enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked'

A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and =

energy)
but
I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then.

Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup =

program is
not
included on the standard XP installation!!!!

I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my =

own
Customer
Services Handbook:-

'Dear Neil

I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the
information you require. The Windows operating system is very =

complex
and
navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be

frustrating
but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the =

answers
to
your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and =

hope
that
we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very

frustrating
problem to you.
Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any

further
queries or problems.'

David


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in =

message
=20
...
Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers =

no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use =

these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat" =

wrote
in
message =

48.16...
Hello, Microsoft.

I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the =

hell I
am
supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, =

worthless
products.


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in =

message
...
Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers =

no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use =

these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat" =

wrote
in
message =

48.16...
Hello, Microsoft.

I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the =

hell I
am
supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, =

worthless
products.


This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to =

provide
support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)

Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated

graphics
in
certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not =

be
saved
to
the selected location."

Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with.

Are you Save As. Web page complete.
This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are =

saving to
that
contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have =

permissions
to
creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving.

Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with =

all
the
content embedded.

On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file =

produced
better
results (
www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single =
file)

I have read the reason for this before, yet a
search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. =

I
looked
for
the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of =

what
the
error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked =

to
make
sure
I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be =

present
SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for =

Internet
Explorer
6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No =

such
luck.
Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your =

knowledge
base.
That would be helpful.


The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
If you go to the Knowledgebase at
http://support.microsoft.com/
Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge =

Base)
Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All =

Microsoft
Search
topics-
enter
"The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution

containing
and Using ... The exact phrase entered

Produces one result
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=3D235589

Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to =

you ??


Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The =

"selecte(oops,
hang
on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face =

WHILE I
WAS
IN
THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, =

Microsoft!)d
location"
has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to =

save the
page,
no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your =

knowledge
base,
unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an =

update
that
was
released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my =

original
question
was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? =

I
mean,
I
know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being =

able
to
save
the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. =

But it
doesn't
work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, =

having
broken
it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had

broken
it,
you were planning on doing anything about it.


Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB =

article I
found.

And then I tried to ask you that.

I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm =

supposed
to
get
to ask you a question. But as every single technical =

operative at
your
company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved

completely
impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine =

company.
But
because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the =

product. You
told
me to go to Dell. As it were.


The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM.
It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - =

it is
up
to
Dell to provide you with support.

Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? =

No,
Dell
did
not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask =

Dell?
Dell
doesn't know what you've done.


Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access =

to
technical
data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it =

is an
OEM
machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are =

the
only
ones who can provide the required support.
Dell do and can know "what we have done"

Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like =

Linux.
Other
people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? =

I
might've
liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or =

some
such
thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're =

the big
game
in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has =

a
deal
with
you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, =

but
something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. =

So if
I
buy
a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if =

I
would
like
Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that =

way, I
cannot
get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, =

here.


You can purchase a device from other vendors with other =

opertaing
systems
or
non at all.
You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on =

PCs
they
ship.
See comment above about OEM support.
If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements
(including)
choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.

I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. =

So I
decided
to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I

installed
it.
It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM =

version.
Meaning
it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. =

There
was
a
rebate. It was free, after the rebate.


Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product =3D support =

by OEM.

Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. =

At
this
point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any =

sense of
responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the =

world,
you
great
jolly megalith, you.

I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at =

yours
every
damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or =

occasionally
on
a
soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.



Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet

Explorer"
(wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead =

of
"Windows
XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, =

please)...you
don't
offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.

But...I bought it in this country.

Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked =

once
again.
Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country."

Okay.


Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you =

reside
?
Was
it a grey import ?
If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a

problem
(please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not =

state
where
you
are.)

I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I =

went
through
every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you =

on the
phone!
That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to =

go to
Dell
for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool.


Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their =

machines
and
possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support =

personnel
to
provide the necessary support on the product.
They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot =

resolve and
also
to raise bugs etc should that be needed.

But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your
"communities"
for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking =

page full
of
bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. =

Like
most
of
your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to =

submit
a
question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you =

can
figure
out the answer to that.

Do you mean here
http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
or
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx

Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.

I mean, there was a little bit of information on your =

newsgroups.
Ninety
trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, =

script-ridden,
cookie-
filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. =

Yessir,
doesn't
get much more modern than a newsgroup.

What would you prefer?
This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support =

community
that
the
technical community operate in.

Of course, fewer and fewer people
are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use
newsgroups.
But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't =

deserve
technical
help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, =

or
for
a
computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some =

of
your
software.


We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. =

OEMs
provide
support for their OEM supplied products.

There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as =

well as
advice on setting up real newsreader programs.

Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP =

Support
Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an =

hour
before.
Elegant.


Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other =

routes and
then
may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support =

services.
The
web is not a linear construct people enter from various =

directions.

And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped!

"Coming
Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains =

how
to
use
the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools =

to
protect
essential data." Well, that would have been useful before =

last
week,
when
the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south =

and
take
out
a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, =

irreplaceable
personal
information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I =

hadn't
even
planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't =

need
me
bothering you with my little problems.


If you have lost a significant amount of important data because =

you
made
no
effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software =

(backup
or
otherwise) - then this is not our fault.

(Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the =

drive
"is
not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's =

okay
because
I'm
smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like =

knowing
I
can
make my computer's life a little easier.)


ok

Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with =

questions, you
certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar
references
just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you =

won't
support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail

account
just
so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at =

the
useless
support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A =

Passport ID
which
is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. =

Thanks
for
that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of

"which
of
these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please =

tell
us
all
your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one =

with
"Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use =

that to
screw
people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my =

name
is
really William Gates, although surely there could only be one =

in the
whole
world. Let's hope, anyway.)

But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad =

you've
taken
such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have =

me
click
inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about =

the
intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. =

You
really
do
care!


Yes - we do.

Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very =

soul.

Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft?

Neil Obstat











---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 7/10/2003


=20

  #36  
Old December 27th 03, 02:13 PM
Graham
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist


"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
...
Mike

Do some OEM suppliers remove components? If yes then they could run the risk
of a claim for damages for misrepresentation if they call it Windows XP etc
by customers and court actions initiated by Trading Standards.

--

~~~~~~

Regards.

Gerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Go here and read some before you make such asinine statements.
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/main.asp this allowed under the OEM program.


  #37  
Old December 27th 03, 02:14 PM
Kadaitcha Man
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Amethyst wrote:
Will Denny wrote:
Hi Cass

I've stopped my attacks on MVPs - perhaps you could lower you
language a tad.

Will



Sorry Will? AFAIK, I wasn't attacking an MVP - I was attacking the
moron who sent the original rant (which didn't appear on my server)
not Mike who's a really good guy (rather like yourself)


SUCK! SUCK! SUCK! SUCK! SUCK! SUCK!

- there was
no way I was attacking him and I apologise to him unreservedly if he
took it that way...


SUCK! SUCK! SUCK! SUCK! SUCK! SUCK!

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/
Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute




  #38  
Old December 27th 03, 02:14 PM
Kadaitcha Man
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:

We are not passing the
buck - you get an OEM Windows at a greatly reduce cost compared to
the retail product - due to the fact that you are directly supported
by Microsoft.


BWAGAGAGHAGHAGHAGAGHAGHAGHGHAGHA!!!!

Your brainwashing is total. "Please provide your credit card detials and be
prepared to part with your money. If WE think it's a bug with our product,
we might consider a refund."

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/
Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute


  #39  
Old December 27th 03, 02:14 PM
Kadaitcha Man
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Graham wrote:

It did not sound like a runaround from Microsoft, they ask for the
serial number, you give it, they say sorry, we do not support a
product we did not supply. Please go see the Original Equipment
Manufacturer. This the reason the OEM is $200 less than the retail
version for home and $300 for pro.


BWAHAHAHAH!! And when it a product they support, you get told "Please
provide your credit card detials and be prepared to part with your money. If
WE think it's a bug with our product, we might consider a refund."

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/
Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute


  #40  
Old December 27th 03, 02:14 PM
Kadaitcha Man
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Graham wrote:
"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
...
Mike

Do some OEM suppliers remove components? If yes then they could run
the risk of a claim for damages for misrepresentation if they call it
Windows XP etc by customers and court actions initiated by Trading
Standards.


Go here and read some before you make such asinine statements.
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/main.asp this allowed under the OEM
program.


BWAGAHGAHAGHAGHAGAGH!!! He was talking from a consumer legal persepective
and you ****ing well tell him to read some microsoft ****?
BWAGAHGAHAGHAGAH!!!! You complete and utter ****ing moron.

--
Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/
Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off.
MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute


  #41  
Old December 27th 03, 02:14 PM
Gerry Cornell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

I am not sure what bearing the content of the link has with regard to =
the law of misrepresentation. If a vendor advertises a Rolls Royce and =
sells you a Ford dressed up as a Rolls Royce then the customer has a =
viable legal action for damages. The law may vary from Country to =
Country but I would anticipate that the basis premise is true wherever =
you reside.

--=20
~~~~~~


Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please tell the newsgroup how any=20
suggested solution worked for you.
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



"Graham" wrote in message =
...
=20
"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
...
Mike
=20
Do some OEM suppliers remove components? If yes then they could run =

the risk
of a claim for damages for misrepresentation if they call it Windows =

XP etc
by customers and court actions initiated by Trading Standards.
=20
--
=20
~~~~~~
=20
Regards.
=20
Gerry
=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Go here and read some before you make such asinine statements.
http://www.microsoft.com/oem/main.asp this allowed under the OEM =

program.
=20

  #42  
Old December 27th 03, 02:14 PM
Jim Macklin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Microsoft put drivers for all brands and such on the retail
and their OEM install CDs. But hardware manufacturers such
as Dell have no reason to put drivers for Gateway, HP/Compaq
or ATI on their oem CDs because they don't have any reason
to support other hardware manufactures.

Dell at least supplies a working oem CD...


"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
...
Mike

Do some OEM suppliers remove components? If yes then they
could run the risk of a claim for damages for
misrepresentation if they call it Windows XP etc by
customers and court actions initiated by Trading Standards.

--

~~~~~~

Regards.

Gerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]"
wrote in message
...
"Testy" wrote in message
.. .
Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM

program and have
every
maker include a full CD.


Testy,

Is that just force the OEM to provide a full white box

disk OEM CD ROM; or
end the whole program of OEM product requiring OEM support

and actually ship
a Retail CD?
If the later - would the market stand the increase in cost

(passed onto the
consumer) for the support of all those millions and

millions of OEM
customers now having to come to Microsoft ?

If just force the OEM CD ROM in the package with the PC -

then interesting
idea.
--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and

confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please

use these
newsgroups

"Testy" wrote in message
.. .
Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM

program and have
every
maker include a full CD.

Testy

"David Banks" wrote in message
...
Hi

Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour

that was intended I
do
think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who

has the Windows
product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from

an OEM.

All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only

know the basics
of
the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of

and I have never
yet
had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in

the UK. Both
Microsoft
and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar

to post, how
anybody
without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the

'buck-passing'
atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.

There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and

they will probably
turn
out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators

message (as has
been
done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving

smart, glib answers on
how
stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get

from the response by
Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you

don't like it, you
know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services

handbook, since
when
has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we

can 'go
elsewhere'
to
the average computer buyer with little knowledge of

computing is a bit
'high
minded' of you and again only reflects the general

perception that the
public have of the organisation.

I always get some smart person replying to my

enquiries pointing out the
obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them

with the message
'read
my
enquiry again, you have not answered the question I

asked'

A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your

time (and energy)
but
I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and

then.

Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the

backup program is
not
included on the standard XP installation!!!!

I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written

it using my own
Customer
Services Handbook:-

'Dear Neil

I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in

obtaining the
information you require. The Windows operating system

is very complex
and
navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can

sometimes be
frustrating
but please persevere. Here are the links where you

will find the answers
to
your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all

feedback and hope
that
we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously

a very
frustrating
problem to you.
Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if

you have any
further
queries or problems.'

David


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]"

wrote in message

...
Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties,

and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions,

please use these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat"

wrote
in
message

48.16...
Hello, Microsoft.

I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure

out how the hell I
am
supposed to ask you a question about one of your

filthy, worthless
products.


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]"

wrote in message
...
Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties,

and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions,

please use these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat"

wrote
in
message

48.16...
Hello, Microsoft.

I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure

out how the hell I
am
supposed to ask you a question about one of your

filthy, worthless
products.


This is not a statement that is condusive to those

who may to provide
support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)

Internet Explorer will not save a web page with

its associated
graphics
in
certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page

could not be
saved
to
the selected location."

Can you please supply which pages you are having

problems with.

Are you Save As. Web page complete.
This creates an addtional folder below the locvation

you are saving to
that
contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure

you have permissions
to
creat this addtional folder for the page you are

Saving.

Also try the Save As single file. This produces a

MHT file with all
the
content embedded.

On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single

file produced
better
results (
www.ibm.com was one test that worked better
as single file)

I have read the reason for this before, yet a
search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up

no results. I
looked
for
the phrase "to the selected location." I mean,

that's part of what
the
error message says. It uses those very words. I

even checked to
make
sure
I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text

would be present
SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the

section for Internet
Explorer
6, the program that gives me the error message.

Nope. No such
luck.
Apparently your error messages do not coordinate

with your knowledge
base.
That would be helpful.


The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
If you go to the Knowledgebase at
http://support.microsoft.com/
Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database

(Knowledge Base)
Just leave the Select your Product as the default -

All Microsoft
Search
topics-
enter
"The web page could not be saved to " in to the For

Solution
containing
and Using ... The exact phrase entered

Produces one result
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589

Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it

relevent to you ??


Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful.

The "selecte(oops,
hang
on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in

my face WHILE I
WAS
IN
THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do

that, Microsoft!)d
location"
has nothing to do with the error. No matter where

I try to save the
page,
no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from

your knowledge
base,
unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do

with an update
that
was
released at some point for Internet Explorer. I

guess my original
question
was, are you going to get around to fixing this at

any point? I
mean,
I
know you know the problem exists. It is a nice

feature, being able
to
save
the occasional web page, with its graphics intact

and all. But it
doesn't
work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to

know if, having
broken
it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged

that you had
broken
it,
you were planning on doing anything about it.


Which pages are problematic and are any releated to

the KB article I
found.

And then I tried to ask you that.

I went to your support page. I went to the part

where I'm supposed
to
get
to ask you a question. But as every single

technical operative at
your
company is more important than the Wizard of Oz,

this proved
completely
impossible. I bought my computer from Dell.

Dell's a fine company.
But
because I did that, you won't let me ask you about

the product. You
told
me to go to Dell. As it were.


The support for OEM products is the responsibility

of the OEM.
It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows

XP on it - it is
up
to
Dell to provide you with support.

Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending

program, did Dell? No,
Dell
did
not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it.

So why ask Dell?
Dell
doesn't know what you've done.


Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and

have access to
technical
data that Microsoft support personnel do. In

addition since it is an
OEM
machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and

as such are the
only
ones who can provide the required support.
Dell do and can know "what we have done"

Do you know, I might've liked to have tried

something like Linux.
Other
people do still make operating systems out there,

don't they? I
might've
liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or

a Unix or some
such
thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and

since you're the big
game
in town I have to buy your software with the

system. Dell has a
deal
with
you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe

not retail, but
something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me

for nothing. So if
I
buy
a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm

not asked if I
would
like
Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy

Windows that way, I
cannot
get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite

screwed, here.


You can purchase a device from other vendors with

other opertaing
systems
or
non at all.
You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM

product on PCs
they
ship.
See comment above about OEM support.
If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your

requirements
(including)
choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.

I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to

go to Dell. So I
decided
to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of

Encarta, and I
installed
it.
It's the only software of yours I have that isn't

an OEM version.
Meaning
it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN

to purchase. There
was
a
rebate. It was free, after the rebate.


Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product

= support by OEM.

Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product

ID from that. At
this
point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your

company had any sense of
responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrough

t on the world,
you
great
jolly megalith, you.

I want you to have to read my words, because I

have to look at yours
every
damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog.

Or occasionally
on
a
soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.



Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of

"Internet
Explorer"
(wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I

mean instead of
"Windows
XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told

(drumroll, please)...you
don't
offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.

But...I bought it in this country.

Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had.

Checked once
again.
Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in

this country."
Okay.


Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country

where you reside
?
Was
it a grey import ?
If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we

may have a
problem
(please note the use of USA is just an example,as

you do not state
where
you
are.)

I could bore you with all the details of what I

tried then. I went
through
every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I

can call you on the
phone!
That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you

tell me to go to
Dell
for support on a product YOU wrote and published.

Cool.


Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM

onto their machines
and
possibly modify or augment. They then trained the

support personnel
to
provide the necessary support on the product.
They also have routes back into us for issues they

cannot resolve and
also
to raise bugs etc should that be needed.

But I'll skip right to the part where I went to

one of your
"communities"
for support. That's where I found a really neat-o

looking page full
of
bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an

advertisement. Like
most
of
your products do, these days. Did I see any place

for me to submit
a
question for the consideration of the "community?"

I bet you can
figure
out the answer to that.

Do you mean here
http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
or
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx

Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.

I mean, there was a little bit of information on

your newsgroups.
Ninety
trillion dollars you must've spent on that

bloated, script-ridden,
cookie-
filled web page, and you send people to the

newsgroups. Yessir,
doesn't
get much more modern than a newsgroup.

What would you prefer?
This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer

support community
that
the
technical community operate in.

Of course, fewer and fewer people
are familiar with the technology and etiquette

required to use
newsgroups.
But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons

don't deserve
technical
help, do they? They only shelled out money for

your software, or
for
a
computer which came with mandatorily-installed

copies of some of
your
software.


We offer technical support as detailed for retail

customers. OEMs
provide
support for their OEM supplied products.

There is no technology required - we offer a Web

interface; as well as
advice on setting up real newsreader programs.

Also on the "communities" page was a link called

"Windows XP Support
Center," which lead right back to where I had

started from an hour
before.
Elegant.


Yes - since some people arrive at the communities

via other routes and
then
may want to search the knowledgebase or access other

support services.
The
web is not a linear construct people enter from

various directions.

And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article

being hyped!
"Coming
Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed

Bott explains how
to
use
the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party

back up tools to
protect
essential data." Well, that would have been

useful before last
week,
when
the partition table on my main data drive decided

to go south and
take
out
a year's worth of projects for school and some

nice, irreplaceable
personal
information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I

mean, I hadn't
even
planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy,

and you don't need
me
bothering you with my little problems.


If you have lost a significant amount of important

data because you
made
no
effort to protect it through the use of appropriate

software (backup
or
otherwise) - then this is not our fault.

(Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever

since that the drive
"is
not formatted," which is not strictly accurate,

but that's okay
because
I'm
smart enough to figure out the real problem

myself. I like knowing
I
can
make my computer's life a little easier.)


ok

Of course, while you may not need me bugging you

with questions, you
certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood

and 35 stellar
references
just so I can get to the point of typing in a

Product ID you won't
support...in this country. I had to create a

stinking Hotmail
account
just
so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even

take a look at the
useless
support page that wound up helping me not one

whit. (A Passport ID
which
is now linked to my user account on this computer.

Super. Thanks
for
that.) That, of course, involved trudging through

15 pages of
"which
of
these newsletters would you like to subscribe to"

and "please tell
us
all
your hobbies." So I can get an email account.

(But not one with
"Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I

could use that to
screw
people, and that job's been filled already. That,

or else my name
is
really William Gates, although surely there could

only be one in the
whole
world. Let's hope, anyway.)

But, the delay of wading through those forms

aside, I'm glad you've
taken
such a profound interest in me as a person that

you would have me
click
inside little square boxes in order that you may

learn about the
intricacies that make up my fascinating and

variegated life. You
really
do
care!


Yes - we do.

Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to

steal my very soul.

Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you,

Microsoft?

Neil Obstat











---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system

(http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date:

7/10/2003






  #43  
Old December 27th 03, 02:15 PM
Gerry Cornell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Jim

Thanks for a non-asinine reply!

--=20

~~~~~~

Regards.

Gerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"Jim Macklin" wrote in message =
...
Microsoft put drivers for all brands and such on the retail
and their OEM install CDs. But hardware manufacturers such
as Dell have no reason to put drivers for Gateway, HP/Compaq
or ATI on their oem CDs because they don't have any reason
to support other hardware manufactures.
=20
Dell at least supplies a working oem CD...
=20
=20
"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
...
Mike
=20
Do some OEM suppliers remove components? If yes then they
could run the risk of a claim for damages for
misrepresentation if they call it Windows XP etc by
customers and court actions initiated by Trading Standards.
=20
--=20
=20
~~~~~~
=20
Regards.
=20
Gerry
=20
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=20
"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]"
wrote in message
...
"Testy" wrote in message
.. .
Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM

program and have
every
maker include a full CD.


Testy,

Is that just force the OEM to provide a full white box

disk OEM CD ROM; or
end the whole program of OEM product requiring OEM support

and actually ship
a Retail CD?
If the later - would the market stand the increase in cost

(passed onto the
consumer) for the support of all those millions and

millions of OEM
customers now having to come to Microsoft ?

If just force the OEM CD ROM in the package with the PC -

then interesting
idea.
--=20
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and

confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please

use these
newsgroups

"Testy" wrote in message
.. .
Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM

program and have
every
maker include a full CD.

Testy

"David Banks" wrote in message
...
Hi

Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour

that was intended I
do
think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who

has the Windows
product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from

an OEM.

All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only

know the basics
of
the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of

and I have never
yet
had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in

the UK. Both
Microsoft
and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar

to post, how
anybody
without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the

'buck-passing'
atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me.

There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and

they will probably
turn
out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators

message (as has
been
done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving

smart, glib answers on
how
stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get

from the response by
Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you

don't like it, you
know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services

handbook, since
when
has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we

can 'go
elsewhere'
to
the average computer buyer with little knowledge of

computing is a bit
'high
minded' of you and again only reflects the general

perception that the
public have of the organisation.

I always get some smart person replying to my

enquiries pointing out the
obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them

with the message
'read
my
enquiry again, you have not answered the question I

asked'

A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your

time (and energy)
but
I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and

then.

Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the

backup program is
not
included on the standard XP installation!!!!

I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written

it using my own
Customer
Services Handbook:-

'Dear Neil

I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in

obtaining the
information you require. The Windows operating system

is very complex
and
navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can

sometimes be
frustrating
but please persevere. Here are the links where you

will find the answers
to
your questions:- links blah blah blah etc.
Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all

feedback and hope
that
we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously

a very
frustrating
problem to you.
Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if

you have any
further
queries or problems.'

David


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]"

wrote in message

...
Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties,

and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions,

please use these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat"

wrote
in
message

48.16...
Hello, Microsoft.

I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure

out how the hell I
am
supposed to ask you a question about one of your

filthy, worthless
products.


"Mike Brannigan [MSFT]"

wrote in message
...
Neil,

Comments inline

--
Regards,

Mike
--
Mike Brannigan [Microsoft]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties,

and confers no
rights

Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions,

please use these
newsgroups

"Neil Obstat"

wrote
in
message

48.16...
Hello, Microsoft.

I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure

out how the hell I
am
supposed to ask you a question about one of your

filthy, worthless
products.


This is not a statement that is condusive to those

who may to provide
support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff)

Internet Explorer will not save a web page with

its associated
graphics
in
certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page

could not be
saved
to
the selected location."

Can you please supply which pages you are having

problems with.

Are you Save As. Web page complete.
This creates an addtional folder below the locvation

you are saving to
that
contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure

you have permissions
to
creat this addtional folder for the page you are

Saving.

Also try the Save As single file. This produces a

MHT file with all
the
content embedded.

On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single

file produced
better
results (
www.ibm.com was one test that worked better
as single file)

I have read the reason for this before, yet a
search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up

no results. I
looked
for
the phrase "to the selected location." I mean,

that's part of what
the
error message says. It uses those very words. I

even checked to
make
sure
I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text

would be present
SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the

section for Internet
Explorer
6, the program that gives me the error message.

Nope. No such
luck.
Apparently your error messages do not coordinate

with your knowledge
base.
That would be helpful.


The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase.
If you go to the Knowledgebase at
http://support.microsoft.com/
Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database

(Knowledge Base)
Just leave the Select your Product as the default -

All Microsoft
Search
topics-
enter
"The web page could not be saved to " in to the For

Solution
containing
and Using ... The exact phrase entered

Produces one result
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=3D235589

Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it

relevent to you ??


Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful.

The "selecte(oops,
hang
on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in

my face WHILE I
WAS
IN
THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do

that, Microsoft!)d
location"
has nothing to do with the error. No matter where

I try to save the
page,
no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from

your knowledge
base,
unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do

with an update
that
was
released at some point for Internet Explorer. I

guess my original
question
was, are you going to get around to fixing this at

any point? I
mean,
I
know you know the problem exists. It is a nice

feature, being able
to
save
the occasional web page, with its graphics intact

and all. But it
doesn't
work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to

know if, having
broken
it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged

that you had
broken
it,
you were planning on doing anything about it.


Which pages are problematic and are any releated to

the KB article I
found.

And then I tried to ask you that.

I went to your support page. I went to the part

where I'm supposed
to
get
to ask you a question. But as every single

technical operative at
your
company is more important than the Wizard of Oz,

this proved
completely
impossible. I bought my computer from Dell.

Dell's a fine company.
But
because I did that, you won't let me ask you about

the product. You
told
me to go to Dell. As it were.


The support for OEM products is the responsibility

of the OEM.
It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows

XP on it - it is
up
to
Dell to provide you with support.

Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending

program, did Dell? No,
Dell
did
not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it.

So why ask Dell?
Dell
doesn't know what you've done.


Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and

have access to
technical
data that Microsoft support personnel do. In

addition since it is an
OEM
machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and

as such are the
only
ones who can provide the required support.
Dell do and can know "what we have done"

Do you know, I might've liked to have tried

something like Linux.
Other
people do still make operating systems out there,

don't they? I
might've
liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or

a Unix or some
such
thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and

since you're the big
game
in town I have to buy your software with the

system. Dell has a
deal
with
you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe

not retail, but
something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me

for nothing. So if
I
buy
a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm

not asked if I
would
like
Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy

Windows that way, I
cannot
get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite

screwed, here.


You can purchase a device from other vendors with

other opertaing
systems
or
non at all.
You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM

product on PCs
they
ship.
See comment above about OEM support.
If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your

requirements
(including)
choice of OS then you can go elsewhere.

I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to

go to Dell. So I
decided
to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of

Encarta, and I
installed
it.
It's the only software of yours I have that isn't

an OEM version.
Meaning
it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN

to purchase. There
was
a
rebate. It was free, after the rebate.


Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product

=3D support by OEM.

Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product

ID from that. At
this
point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your

company had any sense of
responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrough

t on the world,
you
great
jolly megalith, you.

I want you to have to read my words, because I

have to look at yours
every
damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog.

Or occasionally
on
a
soothing screen painted all in deepest blue.



Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of

"Internet
Explorer"
(wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I

mean instead of
"Windows
XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told

(drumroll, please)...you
don't
offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID.

But...I bought it in this country.

Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had.

Checked once
again.
Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in

this country."
Okay.


Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country

where you reside
?
Was
it a grey import ?
If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we

may have a
problem
(please note the use of USA is just an example,as

you do not state
where
you
are.)

I could bore you with all the details of what I

tried then. I went
through
every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I

can call you on the
phone!
That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you

tell me to go to
Dell
for support on a product YOU wrote and published.

Cool.


Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM

onto their machines
and
possibly modify or augment. They then trained the

support personnel
to
provide the necessary support on the product.
They also have routes back into us for issues they

cannot resolve and
also
to raise bugs etc should that be needed.

But I'll skip right to the part where I went to

one of your
"communities"
for support. That's where I found a really neat-o

looking page full
of
bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an

advertisement. Like
most
of
your products do, these days. Did I see any place

for me to submit
a
question for the consideration of the "community?"

I bet you can
figure
out the answer to that.

Do you mean here
http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx
or
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx

Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups.

I mean, there was a little bit of information on

your newsgroups.
Ninety
trillion dollars you must've spent on that

bloated, script-ridden,
cookie-
filled web page, and you send people to the

newsgroups. Yessir,
doesn't
get much more modern than a newsgroup.

What would you prefer?
This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer

support community
that
the
technical community operate in.

Of course, fewer and fewer people
are familiar with the technology and etiquette

required to use
newsgroups.
But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons

don't deserve
technical
help, do they? They only shelled out money for

your software, or
for
a
computer which came with mandatorily-installed

copies of some of
your
software.


We offer technical support as detailed for retail

customers. OEMs
provide
support for their OEM supplied products.

There is no technology required - we offer a Web

interface; as well as
advice on setting up real newsreader programs.

Also on the "communities" page was a link called

"Windows XP Support
Center," which lead right back to where I had

started from an hour
before.
Elegant.


Yes - since some people arrive at the communities

via other routes and
then
may want to search the knowledgebase or access other

support services.
The
web is not a linear construct people enter from

various directions.

And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article

being hyped!
"Coming
Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed

Bott explains how
to
use
the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party

back up tools to
protect
essential data." Well, that would have been

useful before last
week,
when
the partition table on my main data drive decided

to go south and
take
out
a year's worth of projects for school and some

nice, irreplaceable
personal
information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I

mean, I hadn't
even
planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy,

and you don't need
me
bothering you with my little problems.


If you have lost a significant amount of important

data because you
made
no
effort to protect it through the use of appropriate

software (backup
or
otherwise) - then this is not our fault.

(Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever

since that the drive
"is
not formatted," which is not strictly accurate,

but that's okay
because
I'm
smart enough to figure out the real problem

myself. I like knowing
I
can
make my computer's life a little easier.)


ok

Of course, while you may not need me bugging you

with questions, you
certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood

and 35 stellar
references
just so I can get to the point of typing in a

Product ID you won't
support...in this country. I had to create a

stinking Hotmail
account
just
so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even

take a look at the
useless
support page that wound up helping me not one

whit. (A Passport ID
which
is now linked to my user account on this computer.

Super. Thanks
for
that.) That, of course, involved trudging through

15 pages of
"which
of
these newsletters would you like to subscribe to"

and "please tell
us
all
your hobbies." So I can get an email account.

(But not one with
"Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I

could use that to
screw
people, and that job's been filled already. That,

or else my name
is
really William Gates, although surely there could

only be one in the
whole
world. Let's hope, anyway.)

But, the delay of wading through those forms

aside, I'm glad you've
taken
such a profound interest in me as a person that

you would have me
click
inside little square boxes in order that you may

learn about the
intricacies that make up my fascinating and

variegated life. You
really
do
care!


Yes - we do.

Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to

steal my very soul.

Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you,

Microsoft?

Neil Obstat











---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system

(http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date:

7/10/2003




=20

  #44  
Old December 27th 03, 02:15 PM
Graham
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist


"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
...
I am not sure what bearing the content of the link has with regard to the
law of misrepresentation. If a vendor advertises a Rolls Royce and sells you
a Ford dressed up as a Rolls Royce then the customer has a viable legal
action for damages. The law may vary from Country to Country but I would
anticipate that the basis premise is true wherever you reside.

--
~~~~~~


Hope this helps.

Gerry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please tell the newsgroup how any
suggested solution worked for you.
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Did you go and read the supplied info at the link I posted. It clearly
states what can and cannot be done with an OEM disc. It is not
misrepresentation to add or remove some parts of the OS. I have never used
an HP pc supplied with XP, but am pretty sure it includes their imaging
software and not Microsoft's. Plus as the older ones used the HP jukebox and
not media player, it is a good bet this is also different. Does this mean
you would sue them?


  #45  
Old December 27th 03, 02:16 PM
Gerry Cornell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist

Graham

It would take hours to read the link, even then a lot of it is virtually =
incomprehensible legalistic jargon. The substance of what you buy must =
equate to the claims made by those advertising their product. Minor =
variations may be acceptable but not a lower standard product!=20


~~~~~~

Regards.

Gerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




"Graham" wrote in message =
...
=20
"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
...
I am not sure what bearing the content of the link has with regard to =

the
law of misrepresentation. If a vendor advertises a Rolls Royce and =

sells you
a Ford dressed up as a Rolls Royce then the customer has a viable =

legal
action for damages. The law may vary from Country to Country but I =

would
anticipate that the basis premise is true wherever you reside.
=20
--
~~~~~~
=20
=20
Hope this helps.
=20
Gerry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FCA

Stourport, Worcs, England
Enquire, plan and execute.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please tell the newsgroup how any
suggested solution worked for you.
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=20
Did you go and read the supplied info at the link I posted. It clearly
states what can and cannot be done with an OEM disc. It is not
misrepresentation to add or remove some parts of the OS. I have never =

used
an HP pc supplied with XP, but am pretty sure it includes their =

imaging
software and not Microsoft's. Plus as the older ones used the HP =

jukebox and
not media player, it is a good bet this is also different. Does this =

mean
you would sue them?
=20

 




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