good surge protector?

On Tue, 6 Mar 2012 14:38:17 -0800 (PST), w_tom wrote:

On Mar 6, 3:53 pm, Char Jackson wrote:
Seems like you're jumping back and forth between telco and power.

The OP's modem (and most everything else in the house) is connected
to one or both. If either is a reason for modem damage, then all
require a well proven solution. ... Some of the well
proven solutions are already installed, for free, at every home.

What are some examples of well proven solutions that are already
installed at every house, are free, and cover both electrical and
telco lines? You've mentioned them several times, so I think it's time
to let us (me, anyway) know what they are so I can take advantage.

Well proven solution costs less than
what was paid for a typical power strip protector.

You say some of the well proven solutions are free, so yeah, free is
less than not free.

Nobody said a consumer need build a protector. A best solution may
even be installed by the girl who reads electric meter. One of many
well proven options.

That's not free where I live now, nor where I've lived in the past,
assuming you're referring to 'whole house protection' from the power
company and installed at the electrical demarc. Do you mean something
else?

The OP has numerous solutions. One fact we do know. A protector
does nothing for power outages.

I think that's obvious with respect to outages, but it's commonly
thought that other types of power problems frequently accompany
outages. Don't get stuck on the outage aspect. That's clearly not what
"surge protectors" are marketed for.

Jo-Anne wrote:
"Char Jackson" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Mar 2012 18:40:17 -0600, "Jo-Anne"
wrote:

"Paul" wrote in message
...
I use the dime-a-dozen variety myself, but for an install back home,
I used one of these. I used this, so all the gear could be turned off
at once. This box has room for mounting screws, and I mounted it on the
side of the desk.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16842111078

It has a pair of RJ-11 jacks on the side, for "passthru" protection of
a phone line. But on the home setup, all we had was dialup, and
I don't know whether this protection upsets ADSL frequencies or
not. But this might clip garbage coming in over a phone line.
(At the demarcation point in the basement, the phone line likely
has some of its own protection.)

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/42-111-078-Z03?$S640W$

In my ADSL setup here, I use a dime-a-dozen protector, with the
same style passthru RJ-11 protection, and it doesn't seem to affect
the ADSL at all. The protector was designed, before ADSL came along,
which is why I was a bit worried about it.

That Tripplite box has a 90 degree AC plug, for flush mount
behind furniture. Which can be a blessing or a curse, depending
on your setup.

Thank you, Paul! I plug my laptop, fax machine, and printer into the
4-outlet Tripp-Lite model just like the 6-outlet one you linked to at
Newegg. I've had it for at least a few years. No problems so far. So maybe
I
should splurge and get another one for the modem/router and phone and a
cheapie for the netbook.
Keep in mind that the dime a dozen units typically get their
protection by using MOV's, Metal Oxide Varistors, and the MOV's
primarily provide protection from noise and spikes by absorbing it.
Thus, they get damaged over time, some quicker than others, depending
on what they've been subjected to. A unit that's a few years old may
be little more than an outlet strip by now, providing little or no
protection.



Is there a way to tell if a surge protector is still protecting? My
Tripp-Lite is not a dime-a-dozen unit, but I've used it for several years. I
also have (but am not currently using) an old, rather expensive APC UPS. A
few years ago, when I thought it was still functional, a power surge
destroyed the fax machine and damaged the desktop computer plugged into it.
I replaced the batteries in the UPS, but I've been afraid to use it.

Jo-Anne

All the surge protectors I have here, have a status LED. It's supposed
to provide a check that the protection devices are still present. It
does not do any sort of "capability" check, like check that it can handle
X number of joules. It's basically a check to see if it has been blown
clear and is no longer in the circuit.

The MOV can explode, and the bits can fly around inside the strip or
box. And I think that's the only case the LED on my surge protectors
would handle. If the thing is weak, and only has "half a lightning
bolt" left in it, I'd never know. The status LED would say everything
was "A-OK".

You can see the guts of this one, and a green status LED near the top of it.

http://img.tfd.com/cde/_MOV.GIF

On this surge protector, the status LED is the one on the left,
labeled "Protection Present".

http://codinghorror.typepad.com/.a/6...86d5ac3970b-pi

This is a good MOV.

http://www.beananimal.com/media/9612...5D_250x329.jpg

A partially cooked MOV.

http://www.beananimal.com/media/9607...5D_250x187.jpg

A burned MOV.

http://www.beananimal.com/media/9617...00p%5B1%5D.jpg

Side blown off an MOV.

http://www.sellcom.com/images/nofail2.gif

And this used to be a power strip (probably overloaded, not an MOV fault :-) )
Some of the Chinese strips wouldn't even pass any kind of inspection
or check, if you opened them up for a look. This strip was probably
something bought at the "dollar store". But because it's no longer
recognizable as a strip, there's no way to tell what brand it was.

http://www.obri.net/eeh/images/SurgeProFire2Jan03.JPG

Paul

On Mar 6, 7:04 pm, Paul wrote:
And I've never lost a dialupmodem, or an ADSLmodem, and I've been here for
twenty years, so something must be protecting me.

Destructive transients are typically once every seven years. A
number that varies significantly even within the same town.

DC paths are obviously irrelevant. Critical is a 'low impedance'
connection to earth. Direct Current and low impedance define two
different conditions. Why must a telco installed protector must be
connected 'less than 10 feet' to the single point earth ground? Every
word in that sentence has serious technical significance.

All electronics contain serious protection. For example, an
Ethernet port on that DSL modem is rated at least 2000 volts. The OP
and others are reminded: any subjective recommendation (no numbers) is
best considered erroneous or deceptive. Anyone who recommends
protection should even know that 2000 volt number. No numbers quickly
separates myths from science.

Meanwhile, the topic is damage created by a power “outage”. A
solution designed for 'thousands of volt' transients does nothing when
AC electric drops to zero volts. Other anomalies might explain modem
damage should the OP desire solutions. That power strip is not a
useful solution.

On Mar 6, 7:30*pm, Paul wrote:
And this used to be a power strip (probably overloaded, not an MOV fault :-) )
...
http://www.obri.net/eeh/images/SurgeProFire2Jan03.JPG

An NC fire marshal describes why such events happen:
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol entitled "Surge Suppressor Fires" or
http://www.esdjournal.com/techpapr/P...OR%20FIRES.doc

... when one such fire occurred in a fire station.

Each had failed, the one caught on fire, ...

... most surge suppressors house MOVs and other components
inside plastic housings that ignite and contribute to fire
development.

Alternatively, fire investigators m[a]y correctly determine the
suppressor was involved in ignition but improperly categorize
the cause as overloading or other related failure initiated by
the user.

To avert fire, a grossly undersized protector must disconnect that
MOV as fast as possible. Sometimes that thermal fuse does not
disconnect fast enough. Then a house fire may occur.

.."Jo-Anne" wrote in message
...

I realize that I should have had the modem/router plugged into a surge
protector (the one I use for the laptop and printer is too far away from
the router). I also need to plug the netbook into a surge protector;
it's far
away from everything else. . . .
There are so many to choose from. I guess I can go by reviews to some
degree, especially when there are lots of them and they're almost all
positive.

The two desktops networked here (where power outages
are frequent, almost one a month for the last couple of years)
are a Belkin UPS/surge protector upstairs, with the wireless
modem (about $50) and a large APC unit downstairs (because
I was given it by a friend and the battery has not yet died), both
satisfactory for 3 or 4 years.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa Canada)

"Don Phillipson" wrote in message
...
."Jo-Anne" wrote in message
...

I realize that I should have had the modem/router plugged into a surge
protector (the one I use for the laptop and printer is too far away
from the router). I also need to plug the netbook into a surge
protector; it's far
away from everything else. . . .
There are so many to choose from. I guess I can go by reviews to some
degree, especially when there are lots of them and they're almost all
positive.

The two desktops networked here (where power outages
are frequent, almost one a month for the last couple of years)
are a Belkin UPS/surge protector upstairs, with the wireless
modem (about $50) and a large APC unit downstairs (because
I was given it by a friend and the battery has not yet died), both
satisfactory for 3 or 4 years.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa Canada)



Thank you, Don! One thing I found discouraging from other responses is that
it appears you can't really tell if you're being protected until something
happens...

Jo-Anne

On Mar 16, 9:40 pm, "Jo-Anne" wrote:
One thing I found discouraging from other responses is that
it appears you can't really tell if you're being protected until something
happens...

Read spec numbers on that Belkin. It does not even claim to
protect hardware. We all learned in elementary school science about
conclusions based in observation. Fill the lake and life
spontaneously appears. That proves spontaneous reproduction? Or
maggots created by moldy bread? Both conclusions based only in
observation are called junk science. Nobody can say anything about
appliance protection only from observation. Especially when power
outages do not harm electronics. Junk science reasoning proves a
Belkin product did protection when even Belkin will not claim that
protection.

If an outage caused hardware damage, then all other unprotected
appliance were also damaged. How much to replace the stove, furnace,
clocks, TV, smoke detectors and bathroom GFCI. All not on
protectors. Using your reasoning, they must have been damaged.
Reality: all appliances already contain superior protection. You had
damage for other reasons. Observation has only resulted in erroneous
conclusions.

No facts support Don's conclusions. To be valid, he must list other
damaged appliances (clocks, door bell, TV, smoke detectors) that
failed due to no protection. Those were not damaged because outages
do not harm hardware. Ignoring other undamaged appliances justifies an
erroneous conclusion.

So, if your surge protectors did something, then how much did it
cost to replace the stove, dishwasher, smoke detectors, and furnace?
None of them had surge protectors. Using your reasoning, those must
be damaged. Those power strip protectors did nothing. Superior
protection in adjacent appliances did the protection. Read numbers on
your surge protector. It does not even claim to do the protection you
have only assumed.

Other more obvious reasons explain your damage. AT&T provides a
superb description of why DSL modems fail. Knowledge that comes from
spec numbers and from 100 years of science and experience.

In an early post, you suggested you should have had phone line
protection. But you did. It was installed for free. Another fact
you had to know before making conclusions. Any magic box adjacent to
an appliance does not do and does not claim to do relevant
protection. Even Don's Belkin does not do what he has only hoped it
would do. You know when you are protected by learning facts and
numbers. Start by asking. By defining what currently exists. By
listing from a protector you believe does protection. And asking what
is necessary to provide well proven (100+ year old) solutions.

Conclusions only from observation and without numbers are classic
junk science.