Questions about the "end of Windows 7"

On Sat, 2 Mar 2019 12:43:01 -0700, "Bill in Co"
[email protected] wrote:

Ant wrote:

You can use Linux. It still has black text screen. In fact, I SSH to
Linux boxes to use text modem command lines and programs (e.g., tin for
usenet!) all the time. I'm old school.

I tried Linux (Cinnamon Mint, etc), but found it's just not worth all the
hassle, at least to me. Plus I've got way too much invested (program wise)
in Windows at this point.



That's also one of the reasons I have no interest in Linux. But there
are three other major reasons:

1. I've got way too much invested (*knowledge* wise) in Windows at
this point. I'm not interested in starting from scratch to learn
something new to me.

2. There are undoubtedly a number of programs that I run on it Windows
and are important to me that are not available for Linux. Quicken is
one, but other come to mind. (Yes, I know there are Linux alternatives
to Quicken, but I'm not interested in making the investment of time to
learn them and find whether they are just as good for me).

3. There is much more Windows software to choose from.


These are also the main reasons I'm not interested in Apples. I don't
claim that Windows is better. Might Linux or Apple Operating systems
be just as good as, or even better than Windows? I don't know. Maybe
they are. But I'm not going to take the time and trouble to find out.

Oh, one other reason I'm not interested in Apple. A Macintosh costs
much more than a Windows computer..

Ken Blake wrote:
On Sat, 2 Mar 2019 12:43:01 -0700, "Bill in Co"
[email protected] wrote:

Ant wrote:

You can use Linux. It still has black text screen. In fact, I SSH to
Linux boxes to use text modem command lines and programs (e.g., tin for
usenet!) all the time. I'm old school.

I tried Linux (Cinnamon Mint, etc), but found it's just not worth all the
hassle, at least to me. Plus I've got way too much invested (program
wise) in Windows at this point.



That's also one of the reasons I have no interest in Linux. But there
are three other major reasons:

1. I've got way too much invested (*knowledge* wise) in Windows at
this point. I'm not interested in starting from scratch to learn
something new to me.

2. There are undoubtedly a number of programs that I run on it Windows
and are important to me that are not available for Linux. Quicken is
one, but other come to mind. (Yes, I know there are Linux alternatives
to Quicken, but I'm not interested in making the investment of time to
learn them and find whether they are just as good for me).

3. There is much more Windows software to choose from.


These are also the main reasons I'm not interested in Apples. I don't
claim that Windows is better. Might Linux or Apple Operating systems
be just as good as, or even better than Windows? I don't know. Maybe
they are. But I'm not going to take the time and trouble to find out.

Oh, one other reason I'm not interested in Apple. A Macintosh costs
much more than a Windows computer..

Plus with Apple, you get locked in to a walled garden. And I suppose in
some ways that's nice, at least for some people, but it's not for me. I'd
rather have choices.

I agree with your Linux comments, and the knowledge component of managing
Linux is a bit time intensive, to put it mildly! But nonetheless, it was
an interesting journey, to at least get my feet wet in that atmosphere.

"Bill in Co" [email protected] wrote

| +1 for making the point. Even if there are only two of us in here that
| "get it". :-)
|
I've run into that same parochial mindset time
and again in programming groups. Programmers
who've lived in corporate settings think everyone
in the world uses MS Word, and think the only
way to use a computer is to use it as a corporate
workstation.

In that world it's not your computer and you
have no business doing much of anything other
than writing Word docs and saving them to your
docs folder.

The striking thing is that people get so accustomed
to that mindset that they're convinced it's actually
wrong to use a computer any other way. You're
not just different. You're just plain wrong.

I can't count how many times people have lectured
me on how unstable and unsafe my computer is,
despite knowing nothing of how I use it.

That became an especially big problem post-XP.
Suddenly the lackey mode that was impossible to
enforce in 9x and wasn't normally enforced in XP
became the only "right way". Doing things like
storing settings under Program Files or writing
to HKLM were judged to have always been flawed
programming methods. The problem with that
logic, though, is that it allows no way for people
to smoothly use a SOHo computer. If you can't
write to HKLM or all-users app-data then you can't
set settings systemwide. So a boss can't set up
software for employees. Dad can't set up software
for the kids. And so on. Usually in SOHo there's only
one user, or there's one person who sets things up
for everyone else. But the corporate software
developers and IT people don't get that because
they've only worked in corporate, where the IT
dept does setup and no one is allowed to do anything
but their work on the workstation they use. It may
not even be assigned to them. They might log onto
different computers at different times.

There's also an insidious aspect to that scenario:
Microsoft have used security and corporate models
to justify their takeover. With Vista+ they're your
IT person. With 10 you're really a corporate lackey,
without even control over updates. Your only
right is to do your work and save to your documents
folder. And since MS is now your IT overlord, you
have no business expecting privacy.

I sometimes get around the problem of corporate
model with my own
software by creating folders in Program Files during
setup, removing all restrictions from those folders,
then using them for TEMP files and program settings
files. It's sort of like a portable approach but with
convenience of installed software. It allows for
centralized settings with no security risk.

But I'm writing software aimed at people who own
their own computer
and use it as they please. I find it's nearly impossible
to explain my method to the corporate types. They've
been trained to start screaming and call for backup
when they hear, "store under Program Files".

In message , Mayayana
writes:
[]
11 years. Almost every repair was to a sensor that
didn't exist in my earlier '86 pickup. And I actually
have a "lean and mean" pickup now. I was able
to get it with no electric windows or ignition. No
dashboard computer screen.

We're getting very close to, "I'm sorry, Dave. I
can't start until you attach your three seat belts
and check your helmet strap."

There's the fly sensor, as in one of the sketches in "Kentucky Fried
Movie" (IIRR) ... (-:
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

.... the closest thing the movies have ever got to a human special effect.
- Barry Norman on Arnold Schwarzenegger (RT 2014/9/27-10/3)

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote

| We're getting very close to, "I'm sorry, Dave. I
| can't start until you attach your three seat belts
| and check your helmet strap."
|
| There's the fly sensor, as in one of the sketches in "Kentucky Fried
| Movie" (IIRR) ... (-:

I haven't seen that. A sensor to sound an alarm
if a fly lands on your chicken?

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:
In message , Bill in Co
writes:
Mike wrote:
On 3/1/2019 12:39 PM, Bill in Co wrote:
[]
I'm guessing the day will come when I will have no choice but to go to
Windows 7, if for no other reason, due to the browsers not working

Same here, though it'll be 10 (or its successor - though maybe that'll
still be called 10). I'm on 7.

Have you guys considered dropping Windows and going to another OS like
Linux, mac OS, etc.?


....
I decided long ago, certainly in XP, to use a D: partition for all of my
data, organised completely how _I_ wanted, and to let the OS and
softwares have C: (kept small) for them to play with. I image C:
[Macrium] from time to time against disaster (either software or
hardware), but otherwise rarely look at C: in explorer. (Yes, I do back
up D: [synctoy] too.)

Me too! I don't trust any softwares and hardwares. Things can go bad! I
even use different disk clone softwares!

--
Quote of the Week: "There's an ant crawling up your back in the nighttime." --They Might Be Giants' Ant Song
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org /
/ /\ /\ \ http://antfarm.ma.cx. Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

Bill in Co [email protected] wrote:
....
Plus with Apple, you get locked in to a walled garden. And I suppose in
some ways that's nice, at least for some people, but it's not for me. I'd
rather have choices.

I agree with your Linux comments, and the knowledge component of managing
Linux is a bit time intensive, to put it mildly! But nonetheless, it was
an interesting journey, to at least get my feet wet in that atmosphere.

For me, I use all. I like having varities and not be stuck with one.
--
Quote of the Week: "There's an ant crawling up your back in the nighttime." --They Might Be Giants' Ant Song
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org /
/ /\ /\ \ http://antfarm.ma.cx. Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

In message , Ant
writes:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:
In message , Bill in Co
writes:
Mike wrote:
On 3/1/2019 12:39 PM, Bill in Co wrote:
[]
I'm guessing the day will come when I will have no choice but to go to
Windows 7, if for no other reason, due to the browsers not working

Same here, though it'll be 10 (or its successor - though maybe that'll
still be called 10). I'm on 7.

Have you guys considered dropping Windows and going to another OS like
Linux, mac OS, etc.?

Yes, I've considered it. I used to consider it for a few minutes a year;
I think it's now several years since I considered it.

(As another has said - I'm not saying Linux, MacOS, or the other
alternatives are inferior - or superior - to Windows; I just think the
payback time for me learning it/them has now exceeded the time I'm
willing to spend.)
...
I decided long ago, certainly in XP, to use a D: partition for all of my
data, organised completely how _I_ wanted, and to let the OS and
softwares have C: (kept small) for them to play with. I image C:
[Macrium] from time to time against disaster (either software or
hardware), but otherwise rarely look at C: in explorer. (Yes, I do back
up D: [synctoy] too.)

Me too! I don't trust any softwares and hardwares. Things can go bad! I
even use different disk clone softwares!

I have two Macrium boot (mini-)CDs (-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

All I ask is to _prove_ that money can't make me happy.

Ant wrote:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:
In message , Bill in Co
writes:
Mike wrote:
On 3/1/2019 12:39 PM, Bill in Co wrote:
[]
I'm guessing the day will come when I will have no choice but to go to
Windows 7, if for no other reason, due to the browsers not working

Same here, though it'll be 10 (or its successor - though maybe that'll
still be called 10). I'm on 7.

Have you guys considered dropping Windows and going to another OS like
Linux, mac OS, etc.?

Yup, considered it. Spent "a bit" of time using Cinnamon Lint, but for me
it's just not worth all the hassle (like in getting and customizing the
programs, etc). Plus I expect most of us are already too heavily "invested"
in Windows, both program wise and knowledge wise. Mac is a closed off,
walled garden, and expensive, so that's out for me. I like more freedom of
choice. :-)

On 3/2/2019 8:07 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"Bill in Co" [email protected] wrote

We're getting very close to, "I'm sorry, Dave. I
can't start until you attach your three seat belts
and check your helmet strap."

I think Mike's comment is an indicator of the
typical logic that people adopt without realizing it:
Newer is better. Older is outdated. Microsoft depend
on that assumption for their marketing. By that logic,
anyone who doesn't keep their wallet open is a
cranky "holdout".


If I ever stated that windows 10 was better, I wish to
retract that!

My position has always been that stock windows 10 is intolerable, but
can now be made tolerable with a few tweaks. The ability to
block updates removed the major roadblock to implementation.
Time has provided solutions to many of the driver and old
software support. SSD prices have come down to the point
that the boot time problem is significantly reduced. And sleep
provides instant access. I have virtual machines and plugin
hard drives for infrequently used incompatible stuff.
I gave up on a media center replacement,
so my TV machine will stay win7 forever.

I don't recall stating that newer is better. It took me until 2019
to convert my primary machine to win 10.
I have stated that older no longer works, eventually.
XP has been inadequate for some time. The user interface is
irrelevant if the applications aren't supported. All my XP
systems were 32-bit. The bloated browsers like more memory
than you can get with 32-bits.

If XP works for you, by all means, keep using it.

Win10 is inevitable. Resistance is futile. You don't have to
like it, you WILL submit eventually.

In recognition of that, I installed 10 on all my machines as soon
as I could to get the free digital entitlement. Then most got immediately
reverted to win7. Over the last 3 years, most have been put back to
win10. NOT because it's better. Because it's inevitable...and it's
finally good enough. I rarely have to fire up win7 to get something
done. I can't remember the last time XP was required.

The user interface is a non-issue. You CAN learn the differences
and make 10 work. Yes, it's a PITA, get over it. There is no viable
alternative.

Summary: INEVITABLE


But I can't stick around talking about this. I need
to go buy some measuring cups. My ladyfriend
decided to throw out my old, "gross" ones and
bought me two new ones. But to save money, the
new ones are made of something like murky
polyethylene instead of clear, hard plastic. They
have no painted markings. And the faint grooved
markings are made to be fashionably inclusive.
Of 4 marking systems only one is ounces, and that's
only on one side. (Since when do Americans care
how many ml are in a recipe?) So now I have to
go find some measuring cups that are actually
usable.

On 3/2/2019 1:23 PM, Ant wrote:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:
In message , Bill in Co
writes:
Mike wrote:
On 3/1/2019 12:39 PM, Bill in Co wrote:
[]
I'm guessing the day will come when I will have no choice but to go to
Windows 7, if for no other reason, due to the browsers not working

Same here, though it'll be 10 (or its successor - though maybe that'll
still be called 10). I'm on 7.

Have you guys considered dropping Windows and going to another OS like
Linux, mac OS, etc.?

My first home desktop computer was a UNIX system.
I've got a stack of linux PC install disks back to the days when there
was no GUI.
It's a great hobby if that's your thing.
It's a great appliance if you need only what's in the distro.
It's a great server or supercomputer appliance managed by gurus.
It's a great tablet/phone OS.
It is not a windows alternative single-user desktop computing platform
installed, maintained by an ordinary human with other life objectives.

The linux biosphere is (UN)managed by people who think that if you're
too stupid to learn the command line, good riddance. And we complied
by continuing to use windows.

I have had a few Apple computers over the years. I'm glad they were free
because they were too restrained by Apple. The notable exception is
that iPhones make great music players.


...
I decided long ago, certainly in XP, to use a D: partition for all of my
data, organised completely how _I_ wanted, and to let the OS and
softwares have C: (kept small) for them to play with. I image C:
[Macrium] from time to time against disaster (either software or
hardware), but otherwise rarely look at C: in explorer. (Yes, I do back
up D: [synctoy] too.)

Me too! I don't trust any softwares and hardwares. Things can go bad! I
even use different disk clone softwares!

Bill in Co wrote:


Oh please, say it isn't so!! I forgot about that one. Damn! Well, at
least the more basic one called TaxAct still works on XP. I'm sure the
major players have already dropped XP, and added more program bloat in the
process, to boot. Every year it seems they want to keep adding more bells
and whistles in the name of "attractability". Bah. The concept of Less
is More is lost on the newage generations - plus it doesn't make them as
much money, of course.

It's got nothing to do with newage or millenials.

Engineering of mature products has always involved
"tick boxes". You get promoted for "tick boxes". That's
how the woman at Microsoft got to go up on stage at
a BUILD conference, because she invented the Ribbon.
That was a Big Tick Box on a number of products.

Let's say I'm making backup software. These
are some features.

Full backup.
Differential backup.
Incremental backup.

Now, Windows already has a Full Backup in the Control Panels.
So that is "table stakes". To enter the market, you have
to have that box ticked, to be a "player". And, since the OS
gives away Full Backups for free, so must you.

Next, you're sitting in the Marketing meeting room with
a bunch of weasels. A guy in a suit says "how many man
years of work is it to add Differentials?". And now we're
working on our next tick box.

So when you see stuff being added, and that stuff doesn't seem to
have a customer focus, remember that the people in the
marketing room are staring at the navels of their competitors.
They don't give a rats ass about what customers actually want.

I remember some of the products at work, the tick box list
was four pages of paper, or about 200 items with a tick
box next to them. And the marketing team might not even
bother putting a column on the paper, for our competitor
(because the less said about them, the better). It was up
to the buyer to hold all the sheets side by side and compare.

If you add 200 items to something, of course it's
going to be bloated.

Paul

On Sat, 2 Mar 2019 21:53:33 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Ant
writes:
"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote:
In message , Bill in Co
writes:
Mike wrote:
On 3/1/2019 12:39 PM, Bill in Co wrote:
[]
I'm guessing the day will come when I will have no choice but to go to
Windows 7, if for no other reason, due to the browsers not working

Same here, though it'll be 10 (or its successor - though maybe that'll
still be called 10). I'm on 7.

Have you guys considered dropping Windows and going to another OS like
Linux, mac OS, etc.?

Yes, I've considered it. I used to consider it for a few minutes a year;
I think it's now several years since I considered it.

(As another has said - I'm not saying Linux, MacOS, or the other
alternatives are inferior - or superior - to Windows; I just think the
payback time for me learning it/them has now exceeded the time I'm
willing to spend.)


Those aren't my words, but I said much the same thing in another
message in this thread a short while ago.

Paul wrote:
Bill in Co wrote:


Oh please, say it isn't so!! I forgot about that one. Damn! Well, at
least the more basic one called TaxAct still works on XP. I'm sure the
major players have already dropped XP, and added more program bloat in
the process, to boot. Every year it seems they want to keep adding more
bells and whistles in the name of "attractability". Bah. The concept
of Less is More is lost on the newage generations - plus it doesn't make
them as much money, of course.

It's got nothing to do with newage or millenials.

Engineering of mature products has always involved
"tick boxes". You get promoted for "tick boxes". That's
how the woman at Microsoft got to go up on stage at
a BUILD conference, because she invented the Ribbon.
That was a Big Tick Box on a number of products.

Let's say I'm making backup software. These
are some features.

Full backup.
Differential backup.
Incremental backup.

Now, Windows already has a Full Backup in the Control Panels.
So that is "table stakes". To enter the market, you have
to have that box ticked, to be a "player". And, since the OS
gives away Full Backups for free, so must you.

Next, you're sitting in the Marketing meeting room with
a bunch of weasels. A guy in a suit says "how many man
years of work is it to add Differentials?". And now we're
working on our next tick box.

So when you see stuff being added, and that stuff doesn't seem to
have a customer focus, remember that the people in the
marketing room are staring at the navels of their competitors.
They don't give a rats ass about what customers actually want.

Which is why I'm staying with Windows XP as long as I can, before I'm forced
into Windows 7 or later. Becauae *this customer* cares what he gets, and
has no interest in the other fluff and bloat that gets added. At least we
have a choice - for now.

Mike wrote:
On 3/2/2019 8:07 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"Bill in Co" [email protected] wrote

We're getting very close to, "I'm sorry, Dave. I
can't start until you attach your three seat belts
and check your helmet strap."

I think Mike's comment is an indicator of the
typical logic that people adopt without realizing it:
Newer is better. Older is outdated. Microsoft depend
on that assumption for their marketing. By that logic,
anyone who doesn't keep their wallet open is a
cranky "holdout".


If I ever stated that windows 10 was better, I wish to
retract that!

My position has always been that stock windows 10 is intolerable, but
can now be made tolerable with a few tweaks. The ability to
block updates removed the major roadblock to implementation.
Time has provided solutions to many of the driver and old
software support. SSD prices have come down to the point
that the boot time problem is significantly reduced. And sleep
provides instant access. I have virtual machines and plugin
hard drives for infrequently used incompatible stuff.
I gave up on a media center replacement,
so my TV machine will stay win7 forever.

I don't recall stating that newer is better. It took me until 2019
to convert my primary machine to win 10.
I have stated that older no longer works, eventually.
XP has been inadequate for some time. The user interface is
irrelevant if the applications aren't supported. All my XP
systems were 32-bit. The bloated browsers like more memory
than you can get with 32-bits.

If XP works for you, by all means, keep using it.

Well, IF (and only if) *your* applications are no longer supported, you may
not have a choice. (That probably applies to some in here, but not me).
And it might someday, but so far, I'm managing just fine. :-)

Win10 is inevitable. Resistance is futile. You don't have to
like it, you WILL submit eventually.

We'll have to see. The Borg aren't here yet.

In recognition of that, I installed 10 on all my machines as soon
as I could to get the free digital entitlement. Then most got immediately
reverted to win7. Over the last 3 years, most have been put back to
win10. NOT because it's better. Because it's inevitable...and it's
finally good enough. I rarely have to fire up win7 to get something
done. I can't remember the last time XP was required.

The user interface is a non-issue. You CAN learn the differences
and make 10 work. Yes, it's a PITA, get over it. There is no viable
alternative.

There is for me.

Summary: INEVITABLE

Perhaps. Time will tell.