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#1
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Can you really 100% clean a compromised machine 100% of the time w
Ok here's the deal. I think the only way to "Certify 100% Clean" is to format
and re-install the OS...........period. The bottom line is I can save all of the customers data, do a fomat, re-install with all the updates and install anti-virus software in about 1½ hours. Plus setup file sharing, networking, and make many tweaks. Why even mess around trying to clean when most of the time it is just not going to work. I get $130.00 for each machine, flat rate. I usually do about 10 machines a month, so it makes for some nice pocket money. When the customer ruins their machine again I do it all over again and charge the same money. "Leythos" wrote: Most of us the worked on computers for a living have run across many compromised computers with many different types of malware. As people post with compromised machines we direct them to all of the tools that we know about in an effort to help them regain use of their machines in a malware free mode, or at least enough access to backup their documents and files to restore later. What is really at question is the ability of the current tools we have to clean 100% of the malware 100% of the time in the current and future environment for a givem machine at a given instant. This thread is not personal, about anyone's skills, about any individual, it's only about cleaning malware off machines to the point that we could state that 100% of all malware, known and unknown, is removed from the machine at the moment you finish cleaning it. Do you feel 100% certain that your tools and skills can clean a compromised machine, 100% of the time, without any malware, known or unknow, remaining on the machine - 100% of the time? Since I don't believe that any one can actually say "YES" without limitations, then how do we help all of these clueless users ensure their machines are clean? We all know that you can wipe/reboot/install from clean disks, in a clean environment, and the machine will be clean at that moment. We all know that it takes between 30~90 minutes to restore a machine from scratch (depending on the method, quicker for ghost images), and that it's time consuming to get everything back to normal for customers. We all know that no one wants to wipe/reinstall as it means lots of extra work. Now, we also know that removing the malware can take hours in some cases, most takes less. For some malware you have to boot to the recovery console and manually remove it. So, it comes down to this - clean their system enough to save files to CD/DVD, then wipe it to ensure that the malware is 100% removed and the system is clean enough to be certified as clean. While most of us will just clean a machine and reboot it several times, check the registry, tasks, netstat, etc.... then run the malware removal tools several times, etc... It just means that we're willing to take the level of risk for not having to put the time in to ensure that the system is 100% certified clean, which means we don't really want to reinstall everything again I know that some will claim they can perfectly clean a machine, but, if you're really that sure you can clean 100% of malware, 100% of the time, now and in the future, of known and unknown malware, without a wipe/reinstall, then I think you're just fooling yourself. Again, are we assuming that by providing "reactionary" tools and methods that don't wipe/reinstall, that we're doing visitors to this group (and others) justice and actually providing them with a 100% clean platform to continue with? -- remove 999 in order to email me |
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#2
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Can you really 100% clean a compromised machine 100% of the time w
Draino,
Well, for one reason, personally it takes me two full days to get my tweaks & settings back to where I want them (probably longer). I work with people who transfer files to different printers for document printing, they do this with a computer console. But have repair something using Windows XP and half of them are lost. It's safe to say you'll always be in business because of this. Drew "-Draino-" wrote in message ... Ok here's the deal. I think the only way to "Certify 100% Clean" is to format and re-install the OS...........period. The bottom line is I can save all of the customers data, do a fomat, re-install with all the updates and install anti-virus software in about 1½ hours. Plus setup file sharing, networking, and make many tweaks. Why even mess around trying to clean when most of the time it is just not going to work. I get $130.00 for each machine, flat rate. I usually do about 10 machines a month, so it makes for some nice pocket money. When the customer ruins their machine again I do it all over again and charge the same money. "Leythos" wrote: Most of us the worked on computers for a living have run across many compromised computers with many different types of malware. As people post with compromised machines we direct them to all of the tools that we know about in an effort to help them regain use of their machines in a malware free mode, or at least enough access to backup their documents and files to restore later. What is really at question is the ability of the current tools we have to clean 100% of the malware 100% of the time in the current and future environment for a givem machine at a given instant. This thread is not personal, about anyone's skills, about any individual, it's only about cleaning malware off machines to the point that we could state that 100% of all malware, known and unknown, is removed from the machine at the moment you finish cleaning it. Do you feel 100% certain that your tools and skills can clean a compromised machine, 100% of the time, without any malware, known or unknow, remaining on the machine - 100% of the time? Since I don't believe that any one can actually say "YES" without limitations, then how do we help all of these clueless users ensure their machines are clean? We all know that you can wipe/reboot/install from clean disks, in a clean environment, and the machine will be clean at that moment. We all know that it takes between 30~90 minutes to restore a machine from scratch (depending on the method, quicker for ghost images), and that it's time consuming to get everything back to normal for customers. We all know that no one wants to wipe/reinstall as it means lots of extra work. Now, we also know that removing the malware can take hours in some cases, most takes less. For some malware you have to boot to the recovery console and manually remove it. So, it comes down to this - clean their system enough to save files to CD/DVD, then wipe it to ensure that the malware is 100% removed and the system is clean enough to be certified as clean. While most of us will just clean a machine and reboot it several times, check the registry, tasks, netstat, etc.... then run the malware removal tools several times, etc... It just means that we're willing to take the level of risk for not having to put the time in to ensure that the system is 100% certified clean, which means we don't really want to reinstall everything again I know that some will claim they can perfectly clean a machine, but, if you're really that sure you can clean 100% of malware, 100% of the time, now and in the future, of known and unknown malware, without a wipe/reinstall, then I think you're just fooling yourself. Again, are we assuming that by providing "reactionary" tools and methods that don't wipe/reinstall, that we're doing visitors to this group (and others) justice and actually providing them with a 100% clean platform to continue with? -- remove 999 in order to email me |
#3
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Can you really 100% clean a compromised machine 100% of the time w
"-Draino-" wrote in message ... Ok here's the deal. I think the only way to "Certify 100% Clean" is to format and re-install the OS...........period. The bottom line is I can save all of the customers data, do a fomat, re-install with all the updates and install anti-virus software in about 1½ hours. Plus setup file sharing, networking, and make many tweaks. Why even mess around trying to clean when most of the time it is just not going to work. I get $130.00 for each machine, flat rate. I usually do about 10 machines a month, so it makes for some nice pocket money. When the customer ruins their machine again I do it all over again and charge the same money. You must move at light speed, have a very fast Internet connection, some way of temporarily overclocking the customer's pc, and spend a lot of time maintaining a very large collection of drivers and slipstreamed Windows CD's. On a normal XP machine say a P4 2.0 GHz, 512 MB ram, PATA hard drive, ATI or Nvdia graphics it takes at least 1 1/2 hours just to install Windows, install the latest drivers, download Windows updates and install an antivirus. Add anything unusual or a lesser machine (say a Celeron or Duron with 256 MB) in the mix and it will take longer. This doesn't include backing up then restoring their data. A typical customer has at least 5 to 10 GB of data they want saved. To be safe you should actually take an image of their current system which is likely to be greater than 20 GB. If the pc doesn't have USB 2.0 or firewire the backup process will be slow. You would have to backup via LAN, USB 1.1 or open the case and install another drive. If they have Office or any other significant apps to reinstall it will take longer again. I charge two hours to do what you claim to do in 1 1/2. It usually takes around three to do it properly but two is the going rate. The saving grace is a lot of time while Windows is installing can be spent working on another machine. I'm not saying it can't be done in 1 1/2 hours. I have done it on fairly simple configurations.I am saying it usually takes around double that to do the job properly. Some comments from others would be good. Maybe I'm being too picky and/or doing more work than normal. Kerry "Leythos" wrote: Most of us the worked on computers for a living have run across many compromised computers with many different types of malware. As people post with compromised machines we direct them to all of the tools that we know about in an effort to help them regain use of their machines in a malware free mode, or at least enough access to backup their documents and files to restore later. What is really at question is the ability of the current tools we have to clean 100% of the malware 100% of the time in the current and future environment for a givem machine at a given instant. This thread is not personal, about anyone's skills, about any individual, it's only about cleaning malware off machines to the point that we could state that 100% of all malware, known and unknown, is removed from the machine at the moment you finish cleaning it. Do you feel 100% certain that your tools and skills can clean a compromised machine, 100% of the time, without any malware, known or unknow, remaining on the machine - 100% of the time? Since I don't believe that any one can actually say "YES" without limitations, then how do we help all of these clueless users ensure their machines are clean? We all know that you can wipe/reboot/install from clean disks, in a clean environment, and the machine will be clean at that moment. We all know that it takes between 30~90 minutes to restore a machine from scratch (depending on the method, quicker for ghost images), and that it's time consuming to get everything back to normal for customers. We all know that no one wants to wipe/reinstall as it means lots of extra work. Now, we also know that removing the malware can take hours in some cases, most takes less. For some malware you have to boot to the recovery console and manually remove it. So, it comes down to this - clean their system enough to save files to CD/DVD, then wipe it to ensure that the malware is 100% removed and the system is clean enough to be certified as clean. While most of us will just clean a machine and reboot it several times, check the registry, tasks, netstat, etc.... then run the malware removal tools several times, etc... It just means that we're willing to take the level of risk for not having to put the time in to ensure that the system is 100% certified clean, which means we don't really want to reinstall everything again I know that some will claim they can perfectly clean a machine, but, if you're really that sure you can clean 100% of malware, 100% of the time, now and in the future, of known and unknown malware, without a wipe/reinstall, then I think you're just fooling yourself. Again, are we assuming that by providing "reactionary" tools and methods that don't wipe/reinstall, that we're doing visitors to this group (and others) justice and actually providing them with a 100% clean platform to continue with? -- remove 999 in order to email me |
#4
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Can you really 100% clean a compromised machine 100% of the time w
I think we are looking at a realistic time of about 3, or more, hours to do
what Draino says he does in 1 1/2 hours. -- Regards, Richard Urban Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User Quote from George Ankner: If you knew as much as you think you know, You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew! "Kerry Brown" *a*m wrote in message ... "-Draino-" wrote in message ... Ok here's the deal. I think the only way to "Certify 100% Clean" is to format and re-install the OS...........period. The bottom line is I can save all of the customers data, do a fomat, re-install with all the updates and install anti-virus software in about 1½ hours. Plus setup file sharing, networking, and make many tweaks. Why even mess around trying to clean when most of the time it is just not going to work. I get $130.00 for each machine, flat rate. I usually do about 10 machines a month, so it makes for some nice pocket money. When the customer ruins their machine again I do it all over again and charge the same money. You must move at light speed, have a very fast Internet connection, some way of temporarily overclocking the customer's pc, and spend a lot of time maintaining a very large collection of drivers and slipstreamed Windows CD's. On a normal XP machine say a P4 2.0 GHz, 512 MB ram, PATA hard drive, ATI or Nvdia graphics it takes at least 1 1/2 hours just to install Windows, install the latest drivers, download Windows updates and install an antivirus. Add anything unusual or a lesser machine (say a Celeron or Duron with 256 MB) in the mix and it will take longer. This doesn't include backing up then restoring their data. A typical customer has at least 5 to 10 GB of data they want saved. To be safe you should actually take an image of their current system which is likely to be greater than 20 GB. If the pc doesn't have USB 2.0 or firewire the backup process will be slow. You would have to backup via LAN, USB 1.1 or open the case and install another drive. If they have Office or any other significant apps to reinstall it will take longer again. I charge two hours to do what you claim to do in 1 1/2. It usually takes around three to do it properly but two is the going rate. The saving grace is a lot of time while Windows is installing can be spent working on another machine. I'm not saying it can't be done in 1 1/2 hours. I have done it on fairly simple configurations.I am saying it usually takes around double that to do the job properly. Some comments from others would be good. Maybe I'm being too picky and/or doing more work than normal. Kerry "Leythos" wrote: Most of us the worked on computers for a living have run across many compromised computers with many different types of malware. As people post with compromised machines we direct them to all of the tools that we know about in an effort to help them regain use of their machines in a malware free mode, or at least enough access to backup their documents and files to restore later. What is really at question is the ability of the current tools we have to clean 100% of the malware 100% of the time in the current and future environment for a givem machine at a given instant. This thread is not personal, about anyone's skills, about any individual, it's only about cleaning malware off machines to the point that we could state that 100% of all malware, known and unknown, is removed from the machine at the moment you finish cleaning it. Do you feel 100% certain that your tools and skills can clean a compromised machine, 100% of the time, without any malware, known or unknow, remaining on the machine - 100% of the time? Since I don't believe that any one can actually say "YES" without limitations, then how do we help all of these clueless users ensure their machines are clean? We all know that you can wipe/reboot/install from clean disks, in a clean environment, and the machine will be clean at that moment. We all know that it takes between 30~90 minutes to restore a machine from scratch (depending on the method, quicker for ghost images), and that it's time consuming to get everything back to normal for customers. We all know that no one wants to wipe/reinstall as it means lots of extra work. Now, we also know that removing the malware can take hours in some cases, most takes less. For some malware you have to boot to the recovery console and manually remove it. So, it comes down to this - clean their system enough to save files to CD/DVD, then wipe it to ensure that the malware is 100% removed and the system is clean enough to be certified as clean. While most of us will just clean a machine and reboot it several times, check the registry, tasks, netstat, etc.... then run the malware removal tools several times, etc... It just means that we're willing to take the level of risk for not having to put the time in to ensure that the system is 100% certified clean, which means we don't really want to reinstall everything again I know that some will claim they can perfectly clean a machine, but, if you're really that sure you can clean 100% of malware, 100% of the time, now and in the future, of known and unknown malware, without a wipe/reinstall, then I think you're just fooling yourself. Again, are we assuming that by providing "reactionary" tools and methods that don't wipe/reinstall, that we're doing visitors to this group (and others) justice and actually providing them with a 100% clean platform to continue with? -- remove 999 in order to email me |
#5
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Can you really 100% clean a compromised machine 100% of the time w
-Draino- wrote:
Ok here's the deal. I think the only way to "Certify 100% Clean" is to format and re-install the OS...........period. The bottom line is I can save all of the customers data, do a fomat, re-install with all the updates and install anti-virus software in about 1½ hours. Plus setup file sharing, networking, and make many tweaks. Why even mess around trying to clean when most of the time it is just not going to work. I get $130.00 for each machine, flat rate. I usually do about 10 machines a month, so it makes for some nice pocket money. When the customer ruins their machine again I do it all over again and charge the same money. Kerry Brown wrote: You must move at light speed, have a very fast Internet connection, some way of temporarily overclocking the customer's pc, and spend a lot of time maintaining a very large collection of drivers and slipstreamed Windows CD's. On a normal XP machine say a P4 2.0 GHz, 512 MB ram, PATA hard drive, ATI or Nvdia graphics it takes at least 1 1/2 hours just to install Windows, install the latest drivers, download Windows updates and install an antivirus. Add anything unusual or a lesser machine (say a Celeron or Duron with 256 MB) in the mix and it will take longer. This doesn't include backing up then restoring their data. A typical customer has at least 5 to 10 GB of data they want saved. To be safe you should actually take an image of their current system which is likely to be greater than 20 GB. If the pc doesn't have USB 2.0 or firewire the backup process will be slow. You would have to backup via LAN, USB 1.1 or open the case and install another drive. If they have Office or any other significant apps to reinstall it will take longer again. I charge two hours to do what you claim to do in 1 1/2. It usually takes around three to do it properly but two is the going rate. The saving grace is a lot of time while Windows is installing can be spent working on another machine. I'm not saying it can't be done in 1 1/2 hours. I have done it on fairly simple configurations.I am saying it usually takes around double that to do the job properly. Some comments from others would be good. Maybe I'm being too picky and/or doing more work than normal. Richard Urban wrote: I think we are looking at a realistic time of about 3, or more, hours to do what Draino says he does in 1 1/2 hours. Let's see.. I have done what was described MANY times. If you have, say, a 2GHz machine, 512MB RAM.. 40GB hard drive 1/2 full.. And if you: - make a list of all applications installed and users on the machine - export the users email/contacts/favorites to a network location(easier now.) - image the machine (to a network location) to guarantee you miss nothing - download/locate any unusual software/drivers while it images - have an unattended process in place (like http://unattended.sourceforge.net) and redo the machine from scratch (using the customer's keys of course - but installing all the free plugins/antispyware/utilities you know they should have as well) (this part also includes installing those "weird apps" you invariably find) - tweak and create a default user profile and all users from the list you made - log in as the main user (now - this assumes you have agreed not to recreate all userrs - just one.) - copy their data files from the backups and image file to their machine (as well as you can) - burn the image to a CD/DVD (multiple usually) as backup. - test and return machine to user.. We are talking a minimum of 4 hours and I am sure I am leaving out things I normally do. While it is true a full reinstall of: - Windows XP - all patches/tweaks/neededd drivers - MS Office - Quicktime - K-Lite Codec Pack (Basic) - Real Alternative - Adobe Acrobat Reader - Some Antivirus - AdAware, Spybot, Bazooka, SpywareBlaster, IE-SpyAd - Firefox - Some CD/DVD burning software - etc. Will take about an hour and half to do - it's not the time consuming part. Neither is the ghost backup (10 to 60 minutes dependent on amount of data.) The time consuming parts are the parts where we decide to mess with the users stuff - recreate it as best as we can so they are comfortable with their computer. Good choice? maybe not. If all you did was backup and reinstall - maybe 2 to 2½ hours. With the extra effort - 3 to 5 hours. If you can get them to buy your imaging product so they can have the image reader - maybe you could get away with just giving them their image to sort through on their own. heh -- Shenan Stanley MS-MVP -- How To Ask Questions The Smart Way http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html |
#6
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Can you really 100% clean a compromised machine 100% of the time w
"Shenan Stanley" wrote in message ... snipped Will take about an hour and half to do - it's not the time consuming part. Neither is the ghost backup (10 to 60 minutes dependent on amount of data.) The time consuming parts are the parts where we decide to mess with the users stuff - recreate it as best as we can so they are comfortable with their computer. Good choice? maybe not. If all you did was backup and Definately a good choice if you want repeat customers. reinstall - maybe 2 to 2½ hours. With the extra effort - 3 to 5 hours. If you can get them to buy your imaging product so they can have the image reader - maybe you could get away with just giving them their image to sort through on their own. heh -- Shenan Stanley MS-MVP -- Thank you Shenan and Richard. I think it's good to review your business procedures once in a while. You've reinforced my belief that doing it right is worth it. Kerry |
#7
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OT question about OE addin
Are you using an addin for OE? I like the way who said what is separated out
in your replies. Kerry |
#8
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Can you really 100% clean a compromised machine 100% of the ti
First of all everone here had to understand the issue here......"TIME vs.
MONEY" A brand new machine will only cost $350.00 dollars from DELL. So with that in mind you MUST come in at no more than $150.00 or most people won't spend the money or they will just get a new machine, at least that's their logic. Assymilating a machine into my network takes 2 minutes. A copy backup of the MY DOCUMENTS folder take about 5 minutes at most. A machine designed for XP will install in 39 minutes (XPSP2 intergrated with all updates). So now we are at about 44 minutes. I install Norton 2005 on all XP machines, Microsoft Anit Spyware Beta, Ad-Aware and Spybot Search & Destroy. So add 30 minutes for that and that's my 1½. I don't install and/or configure any Office programs or configure any e-mail programs......they did it once they can do it again. I will install a print driver for them. At least that way they can print when they hook up their computer. 95% of all clients don't have anything they want saved anyway.. OK so real world about 2 hours MAX. Nothing ever goes as planned -D- "Kerry Brown" wrote: "-Draino-" wrote in message ... Ok here's the deal. I think the only way to "Certify 100% Clean" is to format and re-install the OS...........period. The bottom line is I can save all of the customers data, do a fomat, re-install with all the updates and install anti-virus software in about 1½ hours. Plus setup file sharing, networking, and make many tweaks. Why even mess around trying to clean when most of the time it is just not going to work. I get $130.00 for each machine, flat rate. I usually do about 10 machines a month, so it makes for some nice pocket money. When the customer ruins their machine again I do it all over again and charge the same money. You must move at light speed, have a very fast Internet connection, some way of temporarily overclocking the customer's pc, and spend a lot of time maintaining a very large collection of drivers and slipstreamed Windows CD's. On a normal XP machine say a P4 2.0 GHz, 512 MB ram, PATA hard drive, ATI or Nvdia graphics it takes at least 1 1/2 hours just to install Windows, install the latest drivers, download Windows updates and install an antivirus. Add anything unusual or a lesser machine (say a Celeron or Duron with 256 MB) in the mix and it will take longer. This doesn't include backing up then restoring their data. A typical customer has at least 5 to 10 GB of data they want saved. To be safe you should actually take an image of their current system which is likely to be greater than 20 GB. If the pc doesn't have USB 2.0 or firewire the backup process will be slow. You would have to backup via LAN, USB 1.1 or open the case and install another drive. If they have Office or any other significant apps to reinstall it will take longer again. I charge two hours to do what you claim to do in 1 1/2. It usually takes around three to do it properly but two is the going rate. The saving grace is a lot of time while Windows is installing can be spent working on another machine. I'm not saying it can't be done in 1 1/2 hours. I have done it on fairly simple configurations.I am saying it usually takes around double that to do the job properly. Some comments from others would be good. Maybe I'm being too picky and/or doing more work than normal. Kerry "Leythos" wrote: Most of us the worked on computers for a living have run across many compromised computers with many different types of malware. As people post with compromised machines we direct them to all of the tools that we know about in an effort to help them regain use of their machines in a malware free mode, or at least enough access to backup their documents and files to restore later. What is really at question is the ability of the current tools we have to clean 100% of the malware 100% of the time in the current and future environment for a givem machine at a given instant. This thread is not personal, about anyone's skills, about any individual, it's only about cleaning malware off machines to the point that we could state that 100% of all malware, known and unknown, is removed from the machine at the moment you finish cleaning it. Do you feel 100% certain that your tools and skills can clean a compromised machine, 100% of the time, without any malware, known or unknow, remaining on the machine - 100% of the time? Since I don't believe that any one can actually say "YES" without limitations, then how do we help all of these clueless users ensure their machines are clean? We all know that you can wipe/reboot/install from clean disks, in a clean environment, and the machine will be clean at that moment. We all know that it takes between 30~90 minutes to restore a machine from scratch (depending on the method, quicker for ghost images), and that it's time consuming to get everything back to normal for customers. We all know that no one wants to wipe/reinstall as it means lots of extra work. Now, we also know that removing the malware can take hours in some cases, most takes less. For some malware you have to boot to the recovery console and manually remove it. So, it comes down to this - clean their system enough to save files to CD/DVD, then wipe it to ensure that the malware is 100% removed and the system is clean enough to be certified as clean. While most of us will just clean a machine and reboot it several times, check the registry, tasks, netstat, etc.... then run the malware removal tools several times, etc... It just means that we're willing to take the level of risk for not having to put the time in to ensure that the system is 100% certified clean, which means we don't really want to reinstall everything again I know that some will claim they can perfectly clean a machine, but, if you're really that sure you can clean 100% of malware, 100% of the time, now and in the future, of known and unknown malware, without a wipe/reinstall, then I think you're just fooling yourself. Again, are we assuming that by providing "reactionary" tools and methods that don't wipe/reinstall, that we're doing visitors to this group (and others) justice and actually providing them with a 100% clean platform to continue with? -- remove 999 in order to email me |
#9
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Can you really 100% clean a compromised machine 100% of the ti
-Draino- wrote:
First of all everone here had to understand the issue here......"TIME vs. MONEY" We all understand that - no one questioned how much you charged. A brand new machine will only cost $350.00 dollars from DELL. +Tax and shipping - although sometime you get lucky with free shipping and it is not much of a machine - very few people I know go with the base unit like that. So with that in mind you MUST come in at no more than $150.00 or most people won't spend the money or they will just get a new machine, at least that's their logic. No one questioned the amount of money charged that I know of. Assymilating a machine into my network takes 2 minutes. A copy backup of the MY DOCUMENTS folder take about 5 minutes at most. hahah 5 minutes at most. Yep - I have seen people with 60GB music in "My Music" and 30GB video in "My Video".. If you can do that in 5 minutes - I want your network. A machine designed for XP will install in 39 minutes (XPSP2 intergrated with all updates). So now we are at about 44 minutes. I install Norton 2005 on all XP machines, Microsoft Anit Spyware Beta, Ad-Aware and Spybot Search & Destroy. So add 30 minutes for that and that's my 1½. No one argued that - matter of fact - I confirmed if nothing else. Matter of fact - reading the next paragraph makes me think you need to learn to automate more - because it was 1.5 hours for me to install office and all the plugins, etc - and that is NOT my time spent in front of it - but off doing whatever else it is I want to do. =) I don't install and/or configure any Office programs or configure any e-mail programs......they did it once they can do it again. Actually - big assumption most of the time.. Somewhat valid - if their kids still live at home. heh I will install a print driver for them. At least that way they can print when they hook up their computer. I guess they have to tell you what printer? 95% of all clients don't have anything they want saved anyway.. Your clients aren't my clients then. I would say the ratio may be closer to 35% could care less if they lose their email.. their contacts.. their pictures.. their music.. their videos.. their favorites.. etc. OK so real world about 2 hours MAX. Nothing ever goes as planned As I said - doing it your way would take 1.5 to 2.5 hours - depending on amount of data being backed up. As you seem to back up very little (you have some strange customers that could care less about their stuff or you have learned to stay quiet about how much they are likely losing.. heh) - 1.5 to 2 hours seems about right.. But I could not - unless requested after they knew what all they would be losing - bring myself to do that. I know how much I would hate to lose most of my stuff (and you wouldn't be redoing mine in no 2 hours - even with your method of copying just "My Documents". heh Money - yes - you must charge at least two hours labor for a rebuild - I wouldn't argue that at all. Heck - I would charge at least that for cleanup as well. -- Shenan Stanley MS-MVP -- How To Ask Questions The Smart Way http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html |
#10
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Can you really 100% clean a compromised machine 100% of the ti
"-Draino-" wrote in message ... First of all everone here had to understand the issue here......"TIME vs. MONEY" A brand new machine will only cost $350.00 dollars from DELL. So with that in mind you MUST come in at no more than $150.00 or most people won't spend the money or they will just get a new machine, at least that's their logic. Assymilating a machine into my network takes 2 minutes. A copy backup of the MY DOCUMENTS folder take about 5 minutes at most. A machine designed for XP will install in 39 minutes (XPSP2 intergrated with all updates). So now we are at about 44 minutes. I install Norton 2005 on all XP machines, Microsoft Anit Spyware Beta, Ad-Aware and Spybot Search & Destroy. So add 30 minutes for that and that's my 1½. I don't install and/or configure any Office programs or configure any programs......they did it once they can do it again. I will install a print driver for them. At least that way they can print when they hook up their computer. 95% of all clients don't have anything they want saved anyway.. OK so real world about 2 hours MAX. Nothing ever goes as planned -D- It may work for you but most of my clients want for more than My Documents backed up. If they have teenagers you have to find all the mp3's which could be anywhere. Every p2p program seems to store them in a different place. Some camera software doesn't store photos in My Documents. I'd hate to explain where their wedding photos went. What if there is more than one user? Most of my cients have their kids set up as separate users. What about email? You have to figure out what email client they use and transfer accounts and email for each user. The Files and Settings Transfer Wizard is a big help but you still have to double check the rest of the drive(s) for data as well. The backup and restore is what takes the time to do properly and what creates a loyal customer. I do agree if you charge too much they will go elsewhere. As for them buying a Dell I say have at it. I make more money from them when they get the Dell and then can't figure out how to transfer all their data. All I have to do then is the backup and restore and I get to charge the same two hours :-) Kerry "Kerry Brown" wrote: "-Draino-" wrote in message ... Ok here's the deal. I think the only way to "Certify 100% Clean" is to format and re-install the OS...........period. The bottom line is I can save all of the customers data, do a fomat, re-install with all the updates and install anti-virus software in about 1½ hours. Plus setup file sharing, networking, and make many tweaks. Why even mess around trying to clean when most of the time it is just not going to work. I get $130.00 for each machine, flat rate. I usually do about 10 machines a month, so it makes for some nice pocket money. When the customer ruins their machine again I do it all over again and charge the same money. You must move at light speed, have a very fast Internet connection, some way of temporarily overclocking the customer's pc, and spend a lot of time maintaining a very large collection of drivers and slipstreamed Windows CD's. On a normal XP machine say a P4 2.0 GHz, 512 MB ram, PATA hard drive, ATI or Nvdia graphics it takes at least 1 1/2 hours just to install Windows, install the latest drivers, download Windows updates and install an antivirus. Add anything unusual or a lesser machine (say a Celeron or Duron with 256 MB) in the mix and it will take longer. This doesn't include backing up then restoring their data. A typical customer has at least 5 to 10 GB of data they want saved. To be safe you should actually take an image of their current system which is likely to be greater than 20 GB. If the pc doesn't have USB 2.0 or firewire the backup process will be slow. You would have to backup via LAN, USB 1.1 or open the case and install another drive. If they have Office or any other significant apps to reinstall it will take longer again. I charge two hours to do what you claim to do in 1 1/2. It usually takes around three to do it properly but two is the going rate. The saving grace is a lot of time while Windows is installing can be spent working on another machine. I'm not saying it can't be done in 1 1/2 hours. I have done it on fairly simple configurations.I am saying it usually takes around double that to do the job properly. Some comments from others would be good. Maybe I'm being too picky and/or doing more work than normal. Kerry "Leythos" wrote: Most of us the worked on computers for a living have run across many compromised computers with many different types of malware. As people post with compromised machines we direct them to all of the tools that we know about in an effort to help them regain use of their machines in a malware free mode, or at least enough access to backup their documents and files to restore later. What is really at question is the ability of the current tools we have to clean 100% of the malware 100% of the time in the current and future environment for a givem machine at a given instant. This thread is not personal, about anyone's skills, about any individual, it's only about cleaning malware off machines to the point that we could state that 100% of all malware, known and unknown, is removed from the machine at the moment you finish cleaning it. Do you feel 100% certain that your tools and skills can clean a compromised machine, 100% of the time, without any malware, known or unknow, remaining on the machine - 100% of the time? Since I don't believe that any one can actually say "YES" without limitations, then how do we help all of these clueless users ensure their machines are clean? We all know that you can wipe/reboot/install from clean disks, in a clean environment, and the machine will be clean at that moment. We all know that it takes between 30~90 minutes to restore a machine from scratch (depending on the method, quicker for ghost images), and that it's time consuming to get everything back to normal for customers. We all know that no one wants to wipe/reinstall as it means lots of extra work. Now, we also know that removing the malware can take hours in some cases, most takes less. For some malware you have to boot to the recovery console and manually remove it. So, it comes down to this - clean their system enough to save files to CD/DVD, then wipe it to ensure that the malware is 100% removed and the system is clean enough to be certified as clean. While most of us will just clean a machine and reboot it several times, check the registry, tasks, netstat, etc.... then run the malware removal tools several times, etc... It just means that we're willing to take the level of risk for not having to put the time in to ensure that the system is 100% certified clean, which means we don't really want to reinstall everything again I know that some will claim they can perfectly clean a machine, but, if you're really that sure you can clean 100% of malware, 100% of the time, now and in the future, of known and unknown malware, without a wipe/reinstall, then I think you're just fooling yourself. Again, are we assuming that by providing "reactionary" tools and methods that don't wipe/reinstall, that we're doing visitors to this group (and others) justice and actually providing them with a 100% clean platform to continue with? -- remove 999 in order to email me |
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Can you really 100% clean a compromised machine 100% of the time w
=?Utf-8?B?LURyYWluby0=?= wrote:
I get $130.00 for each machine, flat rate. I usually do about 10 machines a month, so it makes for some nice pocket money. Many of us do not have that option to do fresh installs to repair easily fixed, or even difficult fixed, problems. Many of us have business customers that have 20 or more apps installed and configured and it would take days to install/configure them again. So, we fix the pc, rather then format new. -- http://www.bootdisk.com/ |
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Can you really 100% clean a compromised machine 100% of the time w
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 23:29:02 -0800, "-Draino-"
wrote: Ok here's the deal. I think the only way to "Certify 100% Clean" is to format and re-install the OS...........period. The bottom line is I can save all of the customers data, do a fomat, re-install with all the updates and install anti-virus software in about 1½ hours. Plus setup file sharing, networking, and make many tweaks. Why even mess around trying to clean when most of the time it is just not going to work. I get $130.00 for each machine, flat rate. I usually do about 10 machines a month, so it makes for some nice pocket money. When the customer ruins their machine again I do it all over again and charge the same money. Heheh, not a bad deal. I should try it. -- Top 10 Conservative Idiots: http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/ |
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Can you really 100% clean a compromised machine 100% of the ti
Inline
snip As for them buying a Dell I say have at it. I make more money from them when they get the Dell and then can't figure out how to transfer all their data. All I have to do then is the backup and restore and I get to charge the same two hours :-) Good point there. And very true. In any event it won't take long for them to ruin the new machine anyway. -D- |
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Can you really 100% clean a compromised machine 100% of the ti
Hey Shenan,
Ya I wasn't really commenting so much about the cost just more so about the time involved. I don't mind spending all the time in the world on MY machine, but as we all know the more you install the more time it is going to take. I have found that in my experience that most people want all their pictures and that's about it. Yes some do want the vids and mp3's as well but on a cable we are running at 100Mbps so it's not so bad, I can have breakfast while all that's happening. I always ask about the printer or I just get the info from the computer before I format. People for some reason think that the printer is part of the computer and they expect it to work. In any event the thread started out asking about if cleaning up a machine was 100% effective. I was really just saying that for the time involved, in most cases a format and install would be the fastest and guarantee a 100% clean machine. -D- "Shenan Stanley" wrote in message ... -Draino- wrote: First of all everone here had to understand the issue here......"TIME vs. MONEY" We all understand that - no one questioned how much you charged. A brand new machine will only cost $350.00 dollars from DELL. +Tax and shipping - although sometime you get lucky with free shipping and it is not much of a machine - very few people I know go with the base unit like that. So with that in mind you MUST come in at no more than $150.00 or most people won't spend the money or they will just get a new machine, at least that's their logic. No one questioned the amount of money charged that I know of. Assymilating a machine into my network takes 2 minutes. A copy backup of the MY DOCUMENTS folder take about 5 minutes at most. hahah 5 minutes at most. Yep - I have seen people with 60GB music in "My Music" and 30GB video in "My Video".. If you can do that in 5 minutes - I want your network. A machine designed for XP will install in 39 minutes (XPSP2 intergrated with all updates). So now we are at about 44 minutes. I install Norton 2005 on all XP machines, Microsoft Anit Spyware Beta, Ad-Aware and Spybot Search & Destroy. So add 30 minutes for that and that's my 1½. No one argued that - matter of fact - I confirmed if nothing else. Matter of fact - reading the next paragraph makes me think you need to learn to automate more - because it was 1.5 hours for me to install office and all the plugins, etc - and that is NOT my time spent in front of it - but off doing whatever else it is I want to do. =) I don't install and/or configure any Office programs or configure any e-mail programs......they did it once they can do it again. Actually - big assumption most of the time.. Somewhat valid - if their kids still live at home. heh I will install a print driver for them. At least that way they can print when they hook up their computer. I guess they have to tell you what printer? 95% of all clients don't have anything they want saved anyway.. Your clients aren't my clients then. I would say the ratio may be closer to 35% could care less if they lose their email.. their contacts.. their pictures.. their music.. their videos.. their favorites.. etc. OK so real world about 2 hours MAX. Nothing ever goes as planned As I said - doing it your way would take 1.5 to 2.5 hours - depending on amount of data being backed up. As you seem to back up very little (you have some strange customers that could care less about their stuff or you have learned to stay quiet about how much they are likely losing.. heh) - 1.5 to 2 hours seems about right.. But I could not - unless requested after they knew what all they would be losing - bring myself to do that. I know how much I would hate to lose most of my stuff (and you wouldn't be redoing mine in no 2 hours - even with your method of copying just "My Documents". heh Money - yes - you must charge at least two hours labor for a rebuild - I wouldn't argue that at all. Heck - I would charge at least that for cleanup as well. -- Shenan Stanley MS-MVP -- How To Ask Questions The Smart Way http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html |
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Can you really 100% clean a compromised machine 100% of the time w
I hear that and I always get nervous because I find that if I have to do
things the hard way it is going to cost a lot of money and for a business that is ok, for a home user it may not be acceptable. -D- "Plato" |@|.| wrote in message ... =?Utf-8?B?LURyYWluby0=?= wrote: I get $130.00 for each machine, flat rate. I usually do about 10 machines a month, so it makes for some nice pocket money. Many of us do not have that option to do fresh installs to repair easily fixed, or even difficult fixed, problems. Many of us have business customers that have 20 or more apps installed and configured and it would take days to install/configure them again. So, we fix the pc, rather then format new. -- http://www.bootdisk.com/ |
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