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#46
December 10th 03, 08:37 PM
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Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?
"Bill Van Dyk" wrote in message ... Right-- My biggest gripe is unfulfilled promises. USB was supposed to allow you to plug in or unplug devices "on the fly". I can connect or disconnect any/all of the fallowing USB connected to my laptop/docking station: **25 (yes, twenty-five) devices** including: 2 printers 2 flatbed scanners 2 card readers 2 optical mice wireless keyboard regular keyboard (via USB) 20GB digital wallet digital camera drawing tablet MP3 player pocket PC 120GB external HD ZIP drive Flight Stick Sound control system 4 USB hubs On firewi 2 external hard drives CD burner So... Quit your whining and get a new machine. 
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#47
December 10th 03, 08:38 PM
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Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?
Supreme Enchanter wrote:
I have 6 USB ports and 2 firewire on XP. No problems. However, as I said earlier, win XP screws up if you have more than 2 firewire ports on a PCI card. "Don Forsling" wrote in message ... "Bill Van Dyk" wrote in message ... Right-- My biggest gripe is unfulfilled promises. USB was supposed to allow you to plug in or unplug devices "on the fly". How odd. I have eight USB ports, both USB 1 and USB 2 implementation on my PC, and I constantly 'plug in or unplug devices "on the fly'." Chances are there's a problem with your computer and not a problem with the design of the USB system. Countless thousands of "USB on PC" users plug in, unplug, turn on, turn off, etc., on the fly with USB with perfect results. Alas, I have no specific suggestions, but maybe somebody will. That might be because of limits to the PCI interface as regards transfer rates. Too much data to send through the buss.
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#48
December 10th 03, 08:41 PM
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Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?
On 28 Nov 2003 18:46:51 GMT, Kevin wrote:
In rec.video.desktop Ron Hunter wrote: I suspect that Firewire is a bit more expensive to implement, and more popular on the Mac than the PC. However, a good Firewire board for the It's a cost-cutting thing, no doubt. I don't think it would be "more" expensive to implement on a PC, but in a cut-throat competitive world of hundreds of PC makers, any way to shave a few pennies is going to make a significant difference in sales. So they keep costs down by not giving you Firewire. Apple, on the other hand, is free to put whatever hardware they want onto their machines, knowing that people will buy (not like they really have a choice) -- and in so doing also give themselves a reputation for being an innovator and market leader ("first to have Firewire as a standard feature!") Apple developed and built the Firewire technology. Which is why Mac's had Firewire before they had USB... -- the JarHead There are 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.
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#49
December 10th 03, 08:42 PM
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Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?
In article , the JarHead
wrote: Apple developed and built the Firewire technology. Which is why Mac's had Firewire before they had USB... thats false. the original imac in mid 1998 was the first mac with usb, and it did not have firewire at all. roughly six months later they shipped a g3 tower with firewire.
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#50
December 10th 03, 08:42 PM
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Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?
"nospam" wrote in message ... In article , the JarHead wrote: Apple developed and built the Firewire technology. Which is why Mac's had Firewire before they had USB... thats false. the original imac in mid 1998 was the first mac with usb, and it did not have firewire at all. roughly six months later they shipped a g3 tower with firewire. I doubt that Apple had any expectation that firewire would become the peripheral bus of choice as opposed to USB for such things as as keyboards and mice. Firewire was a long time in development, and it was their original hope that it would replace both the Apple Serial Bus (for peripherals) and the Apple Desktop Bus (ADB for keyboards etc). But, they recognized their competitive disadvantage when Intel developed (more quickly than they though) USB and (wisely) capitulated early by including USB on Macs even before they were ready to fully implement firewire. IIRC, USB was more widely available across the Apple product line than it was across the PC lines in the early stages. This was about the time they hit on marketing Macs for home digital video and they switched gears and concentrated on getting Sony to buy into firewire early for their new miniDV line of camcorders. That turned out to be a very smart move. Sony licensed it and developed a 4 pin (non-powered) version of firewire (I-Link). Sony is really what kept firewire alive and probably played a much bigger role in the demise of SCSI than anyone imagines. USB couldn't hope to do what firewire did early on. As a technology, firewire was and is vastly superior to USB, but like the entire Apple/Intel story (just as with the Beta/VHS story), marketing prowess and sheer marketing force can leave the consumer with second best technology as the standard. HMc
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#52
December 10th 03, 08:42 PM
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Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?
On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 11:59:58 GMT, the JarHead
wrote: On 28 Nov 2003 18:46:51 GMT, Kevin wrote: In rec.video.desktop Ron Hunter wrote: I suspect that Firewire is a bit more expensive to implement, and more popular on the Mac than the PC. However, a good Firewire board for the It's a cost-cutting thing, no doubt. I don't think it would be "more" expensive to implement on a PC, but in a cut-throat competitive world of hundreds of PC makers, any way to shave a few pennies is going to make a significant difference in sales. So they keep costs down by not giving you Firewire. I'm not so sure it'd make much difference in the sales, but it makes a difference in the profit. So, if you figure $2 to $5 difference in cost and the manufacturer sells a few million machines, it totals a lot of money in their pockets. Even if it were 50 cents it still amounts to a lot of money to the manufacturers. Apple, on the other hand, is free to put whatever hardware they want onto their machines, knowing that people will buy (not like they really have a choice) -- and in so doing also give themselves a reputation for being an innovator and market leader ("first to have Firewire as a standard feature!") I build up my own computers and to me they are all PCs as that was what we called them before IBM was given the PC name. But at any rate, I haven't seen a motherboard without firewire capability in at least one to two years. I'm not claiming they aren't there, but it's easier to find one with, than without. That the manufactures choose to save about $5 (or less) at the time of construction seems strange. I've never had a need for firewire as I haven't come across any accessories that use it, but probably will some time in the future. The unfortunate thing about USB and particularly USB2 is the lack of standardization. *Nearly* all will work with each other and are backward compatible to USB, but there may be a very large difference in the speed from one USB2 to another systems USB2. Apple developed and built the Firewire technology. Which is why Mac's had Firewire before they had USB... You'll have to fix the return add due to dumb virus checkers, not spam Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member) (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?) www.rogerhalstead.com
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#53
December 10th 03, 08:43 PM
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Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?
Nice that you've had success with it. Never locked up on you? Ever? Do you
have XP? For the record, the problem has occurred on several machines over the past few years, with several digital cameras including Canon and Nikon, an HP scanner, a Logitech mouse, and keyboard. But we don't have XP on anything other than a few laptops. Mark M wrote: "Bill Van Dyk" wrote in message ... Right-- My biggest gripe is unfulfilled promises. USB was supposed to allow you to plug in or unplug devices "on the fly". I can connect or disconnect any/all of the fallowing USB connected to my laptop/docking station: **25 (yes, twenty-five) devices** including: 2 printers 2 flatbed scanners 2 card readers 2 optical mice wireless keyboard regular keyboard (via USB) 20GB digital wallet digital camera drawing tablet MP3 player pocket PC 120GB external HD ZIP drive Flight Stick Sound control system 4 USB hubs On firewi 2 external hard drives CD burner So... Quit your whining and get a new machine.
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#54
December 10th 03, 08:43 PM
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Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?
My point is that when we as consumers flock to a particular standard simply
because it appears to be winning the market place, we end up with crap like VHS and USB and Celine Dionne instead of Beta and Firewire and Lucinda Williams. There are often good reasons for making decisions based on pure technical considerations and fighting for competition in the marketplace, which ultimately benefits all consumers. In fact, when curmudgeonly people like myself resist the herd mentality and buy products that haven't won wide acceptance but are technically superior, we do a service for all consumers, by sustaining competition and demanding better performance from manufacturers. In other words, people should think for themselves. The reason we have to put up with so much bad software, stupid laws, and annoying celebrities, is because sometimes we behave like sheep. Mark M wrote: "Bill Van Dyk" wrote in message ... Mark M wrote: There are comparatively few devices that utilize firewire over USB, and since USB 2.0 is fully compatible with the zillions of existing USB 1.0 devices, it makes sense for all computers to come equipped with 2.0. Thank you, Mr. Lemming. There is nothing in my post about "following for no apparent reason." The reasons for USB inclusion are clear: -The need for compatible input devices for the vast array of devices which require it on the market already. This makes no claim of superiority of USB 2.0, rather the simple recognition that USB is very much a standard connection for the majority of users. Nearly every digital camera, new printer, MP3 player, etc. require a USB connection. It's not my opinion that matters here. These are simple facts. Personally, I like firewire over USB 2.0.
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#55
December 10th 03, 08:43 PM
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Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?
Because it's a Dell!
Actually, you bought the wrong Dell desktop - some of the other models in their line have built-in Firewire. They drop the Firewire in the cheaper systems to keep costs low for buyers that don't want more. Rather than the Dell Dimension 2400-8300 series, picking the Dimension XPS series would have gotten you the port. Otherwise, run down to any store, pickup a $20 firewire card and drop it in. --- In any case (runs over to my Shuttle SS51G), my little PC has 4 USB ports and 3 firewire ports, and it cost less than the Dell to build (~$470 today at www.newegg.com for a 2.6Ghz Celeron system + 512MB + 40GB HD + 52x CD-RW + floppy, ie. a complete system). Maybe next time go for a custom built system so you know you're getting everything? Product page: http://us.shuttle.com/specs2.asp?pro_id=281 Review (yep, tuck that baby under your arm and go! - see picture) http://www6.tomshardware.com/howto/20020815/index.html Drop in any ATI All-In-Wonder TV tuner/video card into this baby, and you can watch TV at the same time! More talk about small form factor PCs he http://forums.sudhian.com/ -- Custom built-systems also give you more for your money. YOu can easily load up a system with a killer MB, and have features galore. eg. http://soyousa.com/products/proddesc.php?id=233 The Soyo Dragon is one of such series of fully loaded motherboards - not only 8 USB & 3 IEEE 1394 ports, but also 6-in-1 USB 2.0 flash card reader writer with an additional 2 USB & 2 IEEE 1394 ports. Tack on 4 Serial ATA RAID + 4 IDE channels, 6-channel audio, and a lot of everything else, it makes the Dell look like a stripped down system in comparison (which it is, so they can keep costs down).
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#56
December 10th 03, 08:43 PM
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Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?
Hi Bill
Sorry you don't like USB. I like it a lot. My computer clients/customers like it. It generally Just Works. It's made lots of stuff that used to be a headache easy. Just today I'm working on a customer's older laptop, which lacks any network connectivity. Plugged in a lovely LinkSys USB net adapter, size of a gnat, and am thus able to back up his hard drive and do other shmootz over the network here in the Plywood Labooratory. This particular device astonishes me, both by its size and JustWorks functionality. I'm geezer enough to remember LAN adapters from the late 1980's, huge brain-dead fussy boards that'd be a complete butt-pain to install and get running correctly. As far as cameras having issues with USB connections: my personal sniff is that results from the general situation of camera companies writing crappy software. I sell all my customers a manyFormats-in-one memory card reader, either internal or external, and show them how to use that. I advise them against using ANY camera manufacture software, unless it's a RAW converter whose functionality is nowhere else obtainable. Regards, Stan ps -- On new computers that I build, I recommend that folks let me give them both USB AND Firewire functionality, with built-in front-panel ports. Most folks eschew the Firewire part, unless they're going to be doing video editing, in which case it's a no-brainer easy-sell.
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#57
December 10th 03, 08:43 PM
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Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?
Unfortunatly the inferior USB won out. I knew this to be certain when
things like this started happening: http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/akiba...ge/tooth1.html -- _________________________ Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com
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#58
December 10th 03, 08:43 PM
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Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?
"Roger Halstead" wrote in message ... But at any rate, I haven't seen a motherboard without firewire capability in at least one to two years. I'm not claiming they aren't there, but it's easier to find one with, than without. It's true that most of the major motherboard manufacturers have IEEE1394 (firewire) built into most of their models. Naturally, the big exception is Intel. Not a firewire-equipped motherboard to be had from them. HMc
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#59
December 10th 03, 08:43 PM
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Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?
There's a place for both.
If you're using a digital video camcorder the only meaningful option is IEEE-1394 as Firewire is correctly called, because that's the defacto industry standard. By the same token if you're using external hard drives you're better off with Firewire than USB because you can capture directly to the drive from your camcorder without sucking up CPU cycles which can be important for video. --Keith Stanley Krute wrote: Hi Bill Sorry you don't like USB. I like it a lot. My computer clients/customers like it. It generally Just Works. It's made lots of stuff that used to be a headache easy. Just today I'm working on a customer's older laptop, which lacks any network connectivity. Plugged in a lovely LinkSys USB net adapter, size of a gnat, and am thus able to back up his hard drive and do other shmootz over the network here in the Plywood Labooratory. This particular device astonishes me, both by its size and JustWorks functionality. I'm geezer enough to remember LAN adapters from the late 1980's, huge brain-dead fussy boards that'd be a complete butt-pain to install and get running correctly. As far as cameras having issues with USB connections: my personal sniff is that results from the general situation of camera companies writing crappy software. I sell all my customers a manyFormats-in-one memory card reader, either internal or external, and show them how to use that. I advise them against using ANY camera manufacture software, unless it's a RAW converter whose functionality is nowhere else obtainable. Regards, Stan ps -- On new computers that I build, I recommend that folks let me give them both USB AND Firewire functionality, with built-in front-panel ports. Most folks eschew the Firewire part, unless they're going to be doing video editing, in which case it's a no-brainer easy-sell.
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#60
December 10th 03, 08:43 PM
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Why most new PCs have USB 2.0 but not Firewire builtin?
"Bill Van Dyk" wrote in message ... My point is that when we as consumers flock to a particular standard simply because it appears to be winning the market place, we end up with crap like VHS and USB and Celine Dionne instead of Beta and Firewire and Lucinda Williams. There are often good reasons for making decisions based on pure technical considerations and fighting for competition in the marketplace, which ultimately benefits all consumers. In fact, when curmudgeonly people like myself resist the herd mentality and buy products that haven't won wide acceptance but are technically superior, we do a service for all consumers, by sustaining competition and demanding better performance from manufacturers. In other words, people should think for themselves. The reason we have to put up with so much bad software, stupid laws, and annoying celebrities, is because sometimes we behave like sheep. So which of my devices should I have refused to purchase since they weren't available with firewire? My 10D? Any of my other 25 currently used USB devices? Which ones should I have passed by in the name of firewire?
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