KB976902 update disappears into Black Hole

Just a test to see if my MS newsreader is still working correctly.
--
SC Tom
-There's no such thing as TMI when asking for tech support.


"relic" wrote in message
...

"Char Jackson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 23:27:49 -0500, "R. C. White"
wrote:

?Hi, Char.

I've seen many of your helpful messages here and I don't want to argue
with
you and others whose opinions I respect. But...

Apologies may be in order. I didn't think we were arguing. I thought I
was helping you figure out how to make your posts compatible with the
rest of Usenet, and I thought you were welcoming the suggestions. I'm
sorry if that's not the case.

I've been using OE/WM/WLM ever since OE first appeared in 1995. I don't
recall just when I started using Sigs, but it was much more than 10 years
ago. Some of the old ones in my Sent Items from 1997 show the Sig I was
using then - and it was top-posted and used the "-- " delimiter. Just
about
all of the 30,000 messages in my Sent items archives used that pattern.
This thread is the first one I recall where this has been made a serious
issue.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, your sig delimiter is indeed
formatted correctly and always has been, AFAIK. The problem is that
your news client is putting the correctly formatted sig delimiter in
the wrong place. Whether you top post or bottom post, the sig and its
delimiter should be at the very bottom of the post, not somewhere in
the middle.

When it's stuffed in the middle of the post, it makes following up
more difficult because the vast majority of news clients treat the sig
delimiter as the "end of the post", meaning everything after that can
be thrown away when following up. Hopefully you can see how that is a
problem for the rest of us.

Is it because Forte Agent has a problem? WLM seems to handle it quite
easily.

Agent handles it properly, as in according to Usenet standards. It's
WLM that's messed up. I know you can't fix the lack of "" on quoted
material or the leading question mark in every post, but another user
offered suggestions on how to fix the placement of the sig delimiter
in case you'd care to give it a try. (See below)

This new Wave 4 version of WLM does have several faults that we've been
complaining loudly about. Our gripes seem to have fallen on deaf ears,
but
we keep hoping that the WLMail Team will fix some glaring problems SOON!
The failure to properly quote prior messages may be the most obvious, but
WLM's frequent interruption with a focus-stealing "error" message when
there
is NO error makes it much harder to use, too. Maybe I should be
exploring
other newsreaders, but I haven't looked at those since Netscape
Communicator, Pegasus, Eudora and several others in the mid-1990's. When
OE
arrived in 1995, I finally could check on all my email providers with a
single dial-up phone call, which I could not do with the others, so I
made
my choice and have not felt a need to change since.

Understood, and I respect your choices even though they are very
different from mine.

The top/bottom/inline/quote/snip arguments are constants in newsgroups,
as
I'm sure you know. They are like religion or politics. They seldom
change
opinions or behaviors on either side. I participated in the debates a
few
times, but not in the last dozen or so years - and no more.

I'll state my position, just once:

Whether top-posting or bottom-posting is best depends largely on the
reader,
not on the sender of the message. And the reader's preference may change
with the situation. Most of the time, I download all the new messages in
a
newsgroup, then start reading them. If there are multiple new messages
in a
thread, I don't want to have to re-read all the prior ones to get to the
current discussion, or the latest message in the thread. It's best if
all
the messages have been top-posted and I can just click my mouse (I've
programmed one button to be CtrlU, for Next Unread Message) to read the
latest messages in each thread. (And it is irritating to encounter a
bottom-posted one in the thread; I have to scroll all the way to the
bottom
to read it, then continue to the next message. This interrupts my rhythm
and conversational train of thought.)

There are exceptions. Some messages are written so that "Inline"
comments
are the most effective. In some, I'll extract a line or two and copy it
to
the top and then comment on it there. Sometimes it makes more sense to
add
my comments at the bottom, so I do. But, most of the time, top-posting
fits
the way I read newsgroups and reply to posts.


You see what happens, Char. When I get started, it's hard to get me to
shut
up. But once I've stated my position, I seldom feel like saying it
again,
over and over. So I think I'm done with this subject. I got tired of it
a
decade ago. ;^}

RC

Well, obviously, I wish you wouldn't top post, ever, but I know I
can't change your mind on that. I agree that everyone finds what works
best for them, and unfortunately you've chosen a style that conflicts
with 99% of the other posters here, but that's not the point I'm
trying to make.

I was primarily asking if you'd be willing to make the changes that
will (hopefully) place your sig delimiter and your sig at the bottom
of your posts so that others can do proper followups.

According to relic, the specific steps are as follows:
It requires two checks on the WLM Advanced Options: Reply at the
bottom and Sig at the bottom.

Even if you won't put your replies at the bottom, perhaps you can try
the option to place the sig there, (where it belongs). :-)


Just remember that Top Posting with a sig will cause all newsreaders that
work correctly (read: non-microsoft) to remove the sig and everything
beneath it. It makes the post even more unreadable than just top-posting
without the sig.

"relic" wrote in message
...

"Char Jackson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 23:27:49 -0500, "R. C. White"
wrote:

?Hi, Char.

I've seen many of your helpful messages here and I don't want to argue
with
you and others whose opinions I respect. But...

Apologies may be in order. I didn't think we were arguing. I thought I
was helping you figure out how to make your posts compatible with the
rest of Usenet, and I thought you were welcoming the suggestions. I'm
sorry if that's not the case.

I've been using OE/WM/WLM ever since OE first appeared in 1995. I don't
recall just when I started using Sigs, but it was much more than 10 years
ago. Some of the old ones in my Sent Items from 1997 show the Sig I was
using then - and it was top-posted and used the "-- " delimiter. Just
about
all of the 30,000 messages in my Sent items archives used that pattern.
This thread is the first one I recall where this has been made a serious
issue.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, your sig delimiter is indeed
formatted correctly and always has been, AFAIK. The problem is that
your news client is putting the correctly formatted sig delimiter in
the wrong place. Whether you top post or bottom post, the sig and its
delimiter should be at the very bottom of the post, not somewhere in
the middle.

When it's stuffed in the middle of the post, it makes following up
more difficult because the vast majority of news clients treat the sig
delimiter as the "end of the post", meaning everything after that can
be thrown away when following up. Hopefully you can see how that is a
problem for the rest of us.

Is it because Forte Agent has a problem? WLM seems to handle it quite
easily.

Agent handles it properly, as in according to Usenet standards. It's
WLM that's messed up. I know you can't fix the lack of "" on quoted
material or the leading question mark in every post, but another user
offered suggestions on how to fix the placement of the sig delimiter
in case you'd care to give it a try. (See below)

This new Wave 4 version of WLM does have several faults that we've been
complaining loudly about. Our gripes seem to have fallen on deaf ears,
but
we keep hoping that the WLMail Team will fix some glaring problems SOON!
The failure to properly quote prior messages may be the most obvious, but
WLM's frequent interruption with a focus-stealing "error" message when
there
is NO error makes it much harder to use, too. Maybe I should be
exploring
other newsreaders, but I haven't looked at those since Netscape
Communicator, Pegasus, Eudora and several others in the mid-1990's. When
OE
arrived in 1995, I finally could check on all my email providers with a
single dial-up phone call, which I could not do with the others, so I
made
my choice and have not felt a need to change since.

Understood, and I respect your choices even though they are very
different from mine.

The top/bottom/inline/quote/snip arguments are constants in newsgroups,
as
I'm sure you know. They are like religion or politics. They seldom
change
opinions or behaviors on either side. I participated in the debates a
few
times, but not in the last dozen or so years - and no more.

I'll state my position, just once:

Whether top-posting or bottom-posting is best depends largely on the
reader,
not on the sender of the message. And the reader's preference may change
with the situation. Most of the time, I download all the new messages in
a
newsgroup, then start reading them. If there are multiple new messages
in a
thread, I don't want to have to re-read all the prior ones to get to the
current discussion, or the latest message in the thread. It's best if
all
the messages have been top-posted and I can just click my mouse (I've
programmed one button to be CtrlU, for Next Unread Message) to read the
latest messages in each thread. (And it is irritating to encounter a
bottom-posted one in the thread; I have to scroll all the way to the
bottom
to read it, then continue to the next message. This interrupts my rhythm
and conversational train of thought.)

There are exceptions. Some messages are written so that "Inline"
comments
are the most effective. In some, I'll extract a line or two and copy it
to
the top and then comment on it there. Sometimes it makes more sense to
add
my comments at the bottom, so I do. But, most of the time, top-posting
fits
the way I read newsgroups and reply to posts.


You see what happens, Char. When I get started, it's hard to get me to
shut
up. But once I've stated my position, I seldom feel like saying it
again,
over and over. So I think I'm done with this subject. I got tired of it
a
decade ago. ;^}

RC

Well, obviously, I wish you wouldn't top post, ever, but I know I
can't change your mind on that. I agree that everyone finds what works
best for them, and unfortunately you've chosen a style that conflicts
with 99% of the other posters here, but that's not the point I'm
trying to make.

I was primarily asking if you'd be willing to make the changes that
will (hopefully) place your sig delimiter and your sig at the bottom
of your posts so that others can do proper followups.

According to relic, the specific steps are as follows:
It requires two checks on the WLM Advanced Options: Reply at the
bottom and Sig at the bottom.

Even if you won't put your replies at the bottom, perhaps you can try
the option to place the sig there, (where it belongs). :-)


Just remember that Top Posting with a sig will cause all newsreaders that
work correctly (read: non-microsoft) to remove the sig and everything
beneath it. It makes the post even more unreadable than just top-posting
without the sig.

Yep, test worked fine.

I was curious about your statement that a MS newsreader doesn't work
correctly if a reply is top-posted with a sig. If other (read: non-MS)
newsreaders remove the sig from a top-posted reply and everything under it,
that to me is not working correctly. Mind you, by habit, I bottom-post, but
I just don't see the logic of your statement, and the test post I made still
has the complete post.
--
SC Tom
-There's no such thing as TMI when asking for tech support.

"SC Tom" wrote in message
...
Just a test to see if my MS newsreader is still working correctly.
--
SC Tom
-There's no such thing as TMI when asking for tech support.


"relic" wrote in message
...

"Char Jackson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 23:27:49 -0500, "R. C. White"
wrote:

?Hi, Char.

I've seen many of your helpful messages here and I don't want to argue
with
you and others whose opinions I respect. But...

Apologies may be in order. I didn't think we were arguing. I thought I
was helping you figure out how to make your posts compatible with the
rest of Usenet, and I thought you were welcoming the suggestions. I'm
sorry if that's not the case.

I've been using OE/WM/WLM ever since OE first appeared in 1995. I don't
recall just when I started using Sigs, but it was much more than 10
years
ago. Some of the old ones in my Sent Items from 1997 show the Sig I was
using then - and it was top-posted and used the "-- " delimiter. Just
about
all of the 30,000 messages in my Sent items archives used that pattern.
This thread is the first one I recall where this has been made a serious
issue.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, your sig delimiter is indeed
formatted correctly and always has been, AFAIK. The problem is that
your news client is putting the correctly formatted sig delimiter in
the wrong place. Whether you top post or bottom post, the sig and its
delimiter should be at the very bottom of the post, not somewhere in
the middle.

When it's stuffed in the middle of the post, it makes following up
more difficult because the vast majority of news clients treat the sig
delimiter as the "end of the post", meaning everything after that can
be thrown away when following up. Hopefully you can see how that is a
problem for the rest of us.

Is it because Forte Agent has a problem? WLM seems to handle it quite
easily.

Agent handles it properly, as in according to Usenet standards. It's
WLM that's messed up. I know you can't fix the lack of "" on quoted
material or the leading question mark in every post, but another user
offered suggestions on how to fix the placement of the sig delimiter
in case you'd care to give it a try. (See below)

This new Wave 4 version of WLM does have several faults that we've been
complaining loudly about. Our gripes seem to have fallen on deaf ears,
but
we keep hoping that the WLMail Team will fix some glaring problems SOON!
The failure to properly quote prior messages may be the most obvious,
but
WLM's frequent interruption with a focus-stealing "error" message when
there
is NO error makes it much harder to use, too. Maybe I should be
exploring
other newsreaders, but I haven't looked at those since Netscape
Communicator, Pegasus, Eudora and several others in the mid-1990's.
When OE
arrived in 1995, I finally could check on all my email providers with a
single dial-up phone call, which I could not do with the others, so I
made
my choice and have not felt a need to change since.

Understood, and I respect your choices even though they are very
different from mine.

The top/bottom/inline/quote/snip arguments are constants in newsgroups,
as
I'm sure you know. They are like religion or politics. They seldom
change
opinions or behaviors on either side. I participated in the debates a
few
times, but not in the last dozen or so years - and no more.

I'll state my position, just once:

Whether top-posting or bottom-posting is best depends largely on the
reader,
not on the sender of the message. And the reader's preference may
change
with the situation. Most of the time, I download all the new messages
in a
newsgroup, then start reading them. If there are multiple new messages
in a
thread, I don't want to have to re-read all the prior ones to get to the
current discussion, or the latest message in the thread. It's best if
all
the messages have been top-posted and I can just click my mouse (I've
programmed one button to be CtrlU, for Next Unread Message) to read
the
latest messages in each thread. (And it is irritating to encounter a
bottom-posted one in the thread; I have to scroll all the way to the
bottom
to read it, then continue to the next message. This interrupts my
rhythm
and conversational train of thought.)

There are exceptions. Some messages are written so that "Inline"
comments
are the most effective. In some, I'll extract a line or two and copy it
to
the top and then comment on it there. Sometimes it makes more sense to
add
my comments at the bottom, so I do. But, most of the time, top-posting
fits
the way I read newsgroups and reply to posts.


You see what happens, Char. When I get started, it's hard to get me to
shut
up. But once I've stated my position, I seldom feel like saying it
again,
over and over. So I think I'm done with this subject. I got tired of
it a
decade ago. ;^}

RC

Well, obviously, I wish you wouldn't top post, ever, but I know I
can't change your mind on that. I agree that everyone finds what works
best for them, and unfortunately you've chosen a style that conflicts
with 99% of the other posters here, but that's not the point I'm
trying to make.

I was primarily asking if you'd be willing to make the changes that
will (hopefully) place your sig delimiter and your sig at the bottom
of your posts so that others can do proper followups.

According to relic, the specific steps are as follows:
It requires two checks on the WLM Advanced Options: Reply at the
bottom and Sig at the bottom.

Even if you won't put your replies at the bottom, perhaps you can try
the option to place the sig there, (where it belongs). :-)


Just remember that Top Posting with a sig will cause all newsreaders that
work correctly (read: non-microsoft) to remove the sig and everything
beneath it. It makes the post even more unreadable than just top-posting
without the sig.



no

"SC Tom" wrote in message
...
"relic" wrote in message
...

"Char Jackson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 23:27:49 -0500, "R. C. White"
wrote:

?Hi, Char.

I've seen many of your helpful messages here and I don't want to argue
with
you and others whose opinions I respect. But...

Apologies may be in order. I didn't think we were arguing. I thought I
was helping you figure out how to make your posts compatible with the
rest of Usenet, and I thought you were welcoming the suggestions. I'm
sorry if that's not the case.

I've been using OE/WM/WLM ever since OE first appeared in 1995. I don't
recall just when I started using Sigs, but it was much more than 10
years
ago. Some of the old ones in my Sent Items from 1997 show the Sig I was
using then - and it was top-posted and used the "-- " delimiter. Just
about
all of the 30,000 messages in my Sent items archives used that pattern.
This thread is the first one I recall where this has been made a serious
issue.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, your sig delimiter is indeed
formatted correctly and always has been, AFAIK. The problem is that
your news client is putting the correctly formatted sig delimiter in
the wrong place. Whether you top post or bottom post, the sig and its
delimiter should be at the very bottom of the post, not somewhere in
the middle.

When it's stuffed in the middle of the post, it makes following up
more difficult because the vast majority of news clients treat the sig
delimiter as the "end of the post", meaning everything after that can
be thrown away when following up. Hopefully you can see how that is a
problem for the rest of us.

Is it because Forte Agent has a problem? WLM seems to handle it quite
easily.

Agent handles it properly, as in according to Usenet standards. It's
WLM that's messed up. I know you can't fix the lack of "" on quoted
material or the leading question mark in every post, but another user
offered suggestions on how to fix the placement of the sig delimiter
in case you'd care to give it a try. (See below)

This new Wave 4 version of WLM does have several faults that we've been
complaining loudly about. Our gripes seem to have fallen on deaf ears,
but
we keep hoping that the WLMail Team will fix some glaring problems SOON!
The failure to properly quote prior messages may be the most obvious,
but
WLM's frequent interruption with a focus-stealing "error" message when
there
is NO error makes it much harder to use, too. Maybe I should be
exploring
other newsreaders, but I haven't looked at those since Netscape
Communicator, Pegasus, Eudora and several others in the mid-1990's.
When OE
arrived in 1995, I finally could check on all my email providers with a
single dial-up phone call, which I could not do with the others, so I
made
my choice and have not felt a need to change since.

Understood, and I respect your choices even though they are very
different from mine.

The top/bottom/inline/quote/snip arguments are constants in newsgroups,
as
I'm sure you know. They are like religion or politics. They seldom
change
opinions or behaviors on either side. I participated in the debates a
few
times, but not in the last dozen or so years - and no more.

I'll state my position, just once:

Whether top-posting or bottom-posting is best depends largely on the
reader,
not on the sender of the message. And the reader's preference may
change
with the situation. Most of the time, I download all the new messages
in a
newsgroup, then start reading them. If there are multiple new messages
in a
thread, I don't want to have to re-read all the prior ones to get to the
current discussion, or the latest message in the thread. It's best if
all
the messages have been top-posted and I can just click my mouse (I've
programmed one button to be CtrlU, for Next Unread Message) to read
the
latest messages in each thread. (And it is irritating to encounter a
bottom-posted one in the thread; I have to scroll all the way to the
bottom
to read it, then continue to the next message. This interrupts my
rhythm
and conversational train of thought.)

There are exceptions. Some messages are written so that "Inline"
comments
are the most effective. In some, I'll extract a line or two and copy it
to
the top and then comment on it there. Sometimes it makes more sense to
add
my comments at the bottom, so I do. But, most of the time, top-posting
fits
the way I read newsgroups and reply to posts.


You see what happens, Char. When I get started, it's hard to get me to
shut
up. But once I've stated my position, I seldom feel like saying it
again,
over and over. So I think I'm done with this subject. I got tired of
it a
decade ago. ;^}

RC

Well, obviously, I wish you wouldn't top post, ever, but I know I
can't change your mind on that. I agree that everyone finds what works
best for them, and unfortunately you've chosen a style that conflicts
with 99% of the other posters here, but that's not the point I'm
trying to make.

I was primarily asking if you'd be willing to make the changes that
will (hopefully) place your sig delimiter and your sig at the bottom
of your posts so that others can do proper followups.

According to relic, the specific steps are as follows:
It requires two checks on the WLM Advanced Options: Reply at the
bottom and Sig at the bottom.

Even if you won't put your replies at the bottom, perhaps you can try
the option to place the sig there, (where it belongs). :-)


Just remember that Top Posting with a sig will cause all newsreaders that
work correctly (read: non-microsoft) to remove the sig and everything
beneath it. It makes the post even more unreadable than just top-posting
without the sig.

Yep, test worked fine.

I was curious about your statement that a MS newsreader doesn't work
correctly if a reply is top-posted with a sig. If other (read: non-MS)
newsreaders remove the sig from a top-posted reply and everything under
it, that to me is not working correctly. Mind you, by habit, I
bottom-post, but I just don't see the logic of your statement, and the
test post I made still has the complete post.

Do you not realize that "X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Live Mail
14.0.8117.416" is a microsoft product?

"relic" wrote in message
...

"SC Tom" wrote in message
...
"relic" wrote in message
...

"Char Jackson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 23:27:49 -0500, "R. C. White"
wrote:

?Hi, Char.

I've seen many of your helpful messages here and I don't want to argue
with
you and others whose opinions I respect. But...

Apologies may be in order. I didn't think we were arguing. I thought I
was helping you figure out how to make your posts compatible with the
rest of Usenet, and I thought you were welcoming the suggestions. I'm
sorry if that's not the case.

I've been using OE/WM/WLM ever since OE first appeared in 1995. I
don't
recall just when I started using Sigs, but it was much more than 10
years
ago. Some of the old ones in my Sent Items from 1997 show the Sig I
was
using then - and it was top-posted and used the "-- " delimiter. Just
about
all of the 30,000 messages in my Sent items archives used that pattern.
This thread is the first one I recall where this has been made a
serious
issue.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, your sig delimiter is indeed
formatted correctly and always has been, AFAIK. The problem is that
your news client is putting the correctly formatted sig delimiter in
the wrong place. Whether you top post or bottom post, the sig and its
delimiter should be at the very bottom of the post, not somewhere in
the middle.

When it's stuffed in the middle of the post, it makes following up
more difficult because the vast majority of news clients treat the sig
delimiter as the "end of the post", meaning everything after that can
be thrown away when following up. Hopefully you can see how that is a
problem for the rest of us.

Is it because Forte Agent has a problem? WLM seems to handle it quite
easily.

Agent handles it properly, as in according to Usenet standards. It's
WLM that's messed up. I know you can't fix the lack of "" on quoted
material or the leading question mark in every post, but another user
offered suggestions on how to fix the placement of the sig delimiter
in case you'd care to give it a try. (See below)

This new Wave 4 version of WLM does have several faults that we've been
complaining loudly about. Our gripes seem to have fallen on deaf ears,
but
we keep hoping that the WLMail Team will fix some glaring problems
SOON!
The failure to properly quote prior messages may be the most obvious,
but
WLM's frequent interruption with a focus-stealing "error" message when
there
is NO error makes it much harder to use, too. Maybe I should be
exploring
other newsreaders, but I haven't looked at those since Netscape
Communicator, Pegasus, Eudora and several others in the mid-1990's.
When OE
arrived in 1995, I finally could check on all my email providers with a
single dial-up phone call, which I could not do with the others, so I
made
my choice and have not felt a need to change since.

Understood, and I respect your choices even though they are very
different from mine.

The top/bottom/inline/quote/snip arguments are constants in newsgroups,
as
I'm sure you know. They are like religion or politics. They seldom
change
opinions or behaviors on either side. I participated in the debates a
few
times, but not in the last dozen or so years - and no more.

I'll state my position, just once:

Whether top-posting or bottom-posting is best depends largely on the
reader,
not on the sender of the message. And the reader's preference may
change
with the situation. Most of the time, I download all the new messages
in a
newsgroup, then start reading them. If there are multiple new messages
in a
thread, I don't want to have to re-read all the prior ones to get to
the
current discussion, or the latest message in the thread. It's best if
all
the messages have been top-posted and I can just click my mouse (I've
programmed one button to be CtrlU, for Next Unread Message) to read
the
latest messages in each thread. (And it is irritating to encounter a
bottom-posted one in the thread; I have to scroll all the way to the
bottom
to read it, then continue to the next message. This interrupts my
rhythm
and conversational train of thought.)

There are exceptions. Some messages are written so that "Inline"
comments
are the most effective. In some, I'll extract a line or two and copy
it to
the top and then comment on it there. Sometimes it makes more sense to
add
my comments at the bottom, so I do. But, most of the time, top-posting
fits
the way I read newsgroups and reply to posts.


You see what happens, Char. When I get started, it's hard to get me to
shut
up. But once I've stated my position, I seldom feel like saying it
again,
over and over. So I think I'm done with this subject. I got tired of
it a
decade ago. ;^}

RC

Well, obviously, I wish you wouldn't top post, ever, but I know I
can't change your mind on that. I agree that everyone finds what works
best for them, and unfortunately you've chosen a style that conflicts
with 99% of the other posters here, but that's not the point I'm
trying to make.

I was primarily asking if you'd be willing to make the changes that
will (hopefully) place your sig delimiter and your sig at the bottom
of your posts so that others can do proper followups.

According to relic, the specific steps are as follows:
It requires two checks on the WLM Advanced Options: Reply at the
bottom and Sig at the bottom.

Even if you won't put your replies at the bottom, perhaps you can try
the option to place the sig there, (where it belongs). :-)


Just remember that Top Posting with a sig will cause all newsreaders
that work correctly (read: non-microsoft) to remove the sig and
everything beneath it. It makes the post even more unreadable than just
top-posting without the sig.

Yep, test worked fine.

I was curious about your statement that a MS newsreader doesn't work
correctly if a reply is top-posted with a sig. If other (read: non-MS)
newsreaders remove the sig from a top-posted reply and everything under
it, that to me is not working correctly. Mind you, by habit, I
bottom-post, but I just don't see the logic of your statement, and the
test post I made still has the complete post.

Do you not realize that "X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Live Mail
14.0.8117.416" is a microsoft product?


Well, golly, I sure do!
Your statement was "Top Posting with a sig will cause all newsreaders that
work correctly (read: non-microsoft) to remove the sig and everything
beneath it." and I just said that I use a MS newsreader, and that the post I
top-posted to with it still showed everything in the original post. In my
opinion, THAT is how it should work, not remove everything like your non-MS
reader does. Is that not what you meant in your post, or am I missing
something there?
--
SC Tom
-There's no such thing as TMI when asking for tech support.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 15:48:54 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:

Just a test to see if my MS newsreader is still working correctly.

Nope, not working correctly at all. Your contribution above was
followed by a properly formatted sig delimiter, and then the rest of
the post followed that. That's completely broken behavior. Your sig
delimiter belongs at the bottom of the post, (regardless of where you
choose to add your text), not near the top or somewhere in the middle.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:13:25 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:

Yep, test worked fine.

Actually, it didn't work at all. It only verified the issues we've
been discussing.

I was curious about your statement that a MS newsreader doesn't work
correctly if a reply is top-posted with a sig. If other (read: non-MS)
newsreaders remove the sig from a top-posted reply and everything under it,
that to me is not working correctly.

You're confused. The entire purpose of the sig delimiter
(dash-dash-space) is to tell the newsreader of the person attempting
to follow up where the message ends and the signature block begins. By
putting the sig delimiter in random places in the post, you completely
break all of the standards-compliant newsreaders out there.

Mind you, by habit, I bottom-post, but
I just don't see the logic of your statement, and the test post I made still
has the complete post.

I don't think it's valid to use a known broken newsreader to declare
any kind of successful testing, do you?

On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:53:37 -0400, SC Tom wrote:

"relic" wrote in message
...

"SC Tom" wrote in message
...
"relic" wrote in message
...

"Char Jackson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 23:27:49 -0500, "R. C. White"
wrote:

?Hi, Char.

I've seen many of your helpful messages here and I don't want to argue
with
you and others whose opinions I respect. But...

Apologies may be in order. I didn't think we were arguing. I thought I
was helping you figure out how to make your posts compatible with the
rest of Usenet, and I thought you were welcoming the suggestions. I'm
sorry if that's not the case.

I've been using OE/WM/WLM ever since OE first appeared in 1995. I
don't
recall just when I started using Sigs, but it was much more than 10
years
ago. Some of the old ones in my Sent Items from 1997 show the Sig I
was
using then - and it was top-posted and used the "-- " delimiter. Just
about
all of the 30,000 messages in my Sent items archives used that pattern.
This thread is the first one I recall where this has been made a
serious
issue.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, your sig delimiter is indeed
formatted correctly and always has been, AFAIK. The problem is that
your news client is putting the correctly formatted sig delimiter in
the wrong place. Whether you top post or bottom post, the sig and its
delimiter should be at the very bottom of the post, not somewhere in
the middle.

When it's stuffed in the middle of the post, it makes following up
more difficult because the vast majority of news clients treat the sig
delimiter as the "end of the post", meaning everything after that can
be thrown away when following up. Hopefully you can see how that is a
problem for the rest of us.

Is it because Forte Agent has a problem? WLM seems to handle it quite
easily.

Agent handles it properly, as in according to Usenet standards. It's
WLM that's messed up. I know you can't fix the lack of "" on quoted
material or the leading question mark in every post, but another user
offered suggestions on how to fix the placement of the sig delimiter
in case you'd care to give it a try. (See below)

This new Wave 4 version of WLM does have several faults that we've been
complaining loudly about. Our gripes seem to have fallen on deaf ears,
but
we keep hoping that the WLMail Team will fix some glaring problems
SOON!
The failure to properly quote prior messages may be the most obvious,
but
WLM's frequent interruption with a focus-stealing "error" message when
there
is NO error makes it much harder to use, too. Maybe I should be
exploring
other newsreaders, but I haven't looked at those since Netscape
Communicator, Pegasus, Eudora and several others in the mid-1990's.
When OE
arrived in 1995, I finally could check on all my email providers with a
single dial-up phone call, which I could not do with the others, so I
made
my choice and have not felt a need to change since.

Understood, and I respect your choices even though they are very
different from mine.

The top/bottom/inline/quote/snip arguments are constants in newsgroups,
as
I'm sure you know. They are like religion or politics. They seldom
change
opinions or behaviors on either side. I participated in the debates a
few
times, but not in the last dozen or so years - and no more.

I'll state my position, just once:

Whether top-posting or bottom-posting is best depends largely on the
reader,
not on the sender of the message. And the reader's preference may
change
with the situation. Most of the time, I download all the new messages
in a
newsgroup, then start reading them. If there are multiple new messages
in a
thread, I don't want to have to re-read all the prior ones to get to
the
current discussion, or the latest message in the thread. It's best if
all
the messages have been top-posted and I can just click my mouse (I've
programmed one button to be CtrlU, for Next Unread Message) to read
the
latest messages in each thread. (And it is irritating to encounter a
bottom-posted one in the thread; I have to scroll all the way to the
bottom
to read it, then continue to the next message. This interrupts my
rhythm
and conversational train of thought.)

There are exceptions. Some messages are written so that "Inline"
comments
are the most effective. In some, I'll extract a line or two and copy
it to
the top and then comment on it there. Sometimes it makes more sense to
add
my comments at the bottom, so I do. But, most of the time, top-posting
fits
the way I read newsgroups and reply to posts.


You see what happens, Char. When I get started, it's hard to get me to
shut
up. But once I've stated my position, I seldom feel like saying it
again,
over and over. So I think I'm done with this subject. I got tired of
it a
decade ago. ;^}

RC

Well, obviously, I wish you wouldn't top post, ever, but I know I
can't change your mind on that. I agree that everyone finds what works
best for them, and unfortunately you've chosen a style that conflicts
with 99% of the other posters here, but that's not the point I'm
trying to make.

I was primarily asking if you'd be willing to make the changes that
will (hopefully) place your sig delimiter and your sig at the bottom
of your posts so that others can do proper followups.

According to relic, the specific steps are as follows:
It requires two checks on the WLM Advanced Options: Reply at the
bottom and Sig at the bottom.

Even if you won't put your replies at the bottom, perhaps you can try
the option to place the sig there, (where it belongs). :-)


Just remember that Top Posting with a sig will cause all newsreaders
that work correctly (read: non-microsoft) to remove the sig and
everything beneath it. It makes the post even more unreadable than just
top-posting without the sig.

Yep, test worked fine.

I was curious about your statement that a MS newsreader doesn't work
correctly if a reply is top-posted with a sig. If other (read: non-MS)
newsreaders remove the sig from a top-posted reply and everything under
it, that to me is not working correctly. Mind you, by habit, I
bottom-post, but I just don't see the logic of your statement, and the
test post I made still has the complete post.

Do you not realize that "X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Live Mail
14.0.8117.416" is a microsoft product?


Well, golly, I sure do!
Your statement was "Top Posting with a sig will cause all newsreaders that
work correctly (read: non-microsoft) to remove the sig and everything
beneath it." and I just said that I use a MS newsreader, and that the post I
top-posted to with it still showed everything in the original post. In my
opinion, THAT is how it should work, not remove everything like your non-MS
reader does. Is that not what you meant in your post, or am I missing
something there?

Yes, you are missing something. The behavior of most non-Microsoft
newsreaders follows the Usenet standards. Items below the signature
delimiter are supposed to be suppressed in replies, since they are, as
they should be, taken to be part of the signature. For emphasis: they
are below the signature delimiter, so they are part of the signature,
regardless of how they got there.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 14:39:56 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:53:37 -0400, SC Tom wrote:

Is that not what you meant in your post, or am I missing
something there?

Yes, you are missing something. The behavior of most non-Microsoft
newsreaders follows the Usenet standards. Items below the signature
delimiter are supposed to be suppressed in replies, since they are, as
they should be, taken to be part of the signature. For emphasis: they
are below the signature delimiter, so they are part of the signature,
regardless of how they got there.

Thank you for your additional voice of reason.

"Gene E. Bloch" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:53:37 -0400, SC Tom wrote:

"relic" wrote in message
...

"SC Tom" wrote in message
...
"relic" wrote in message
...

"Char Jackson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 23:27:49 -0500, "R. C. White"
wrote:

?Hi, Char.

I've seen many of your helpful messages here and I don't want to
argue
with
you and others whose opinions I respect. But...

Apologies may be in order. I didn't think we were arguing. I thought
I
was helping you figure out how to make your posts compatible with the
rest of Usenet, and I thought you were welcoming the suggestions. I'm
sorry if that's not the case.

I've been using OE/WM/WLM ever since OE first appeared in 1995. I
don't
recall just when I started using Sigs, but it was much more than 10
years
ago. Some of the old ones in my Sent Items from 1997 show the Sig I
was
using then - and it was top-posted and used the "-- " delimiter.
Just
about
all of the 30,000 messages in my Sent items archives used that
pattern.
This thread is the first one I recall where this has been made a
serious
issue.

Just to be sure we're on the same page, your sig delimiter is indeed
formatted correctly and always has been, AFAIK. The problem is that
your news client is putting the correctly formatted sig delimiter in
the wrong place. Whether you top post or bottom post, the sig and its
delimiter should be at the very bottom of the post, not somewhere in
the middle.

When it's stuffed in the middle of the post, it makes following up
more difficult because the vast majority of news clients treat the
sig
delimiter as the "end of the post", meaning everything after that can
be thrown away when following up. Hopefully you can see how that is a
problem for the rest of us.

Is it because Forte Agent has a problem? WLM seems to handle it
quite
easily.

Agent handles it properly, as in according to Usenet standards. It's
WLM that's messed up. I know you can't fix the lack of "" on quoted
material or the leading question mark in every post, but another user
offered suggestions on how to fix the placement of the sig delimiter
in case you'd care to give it a try. (See below)

This new Wave 4 version of WLM does have several faults that we've
been
complaining loudly about. Our gripes seem to have fallen on deaf
ears,
but
we keep hoping that the WLMail Team will fix some glaring problems
SOON!
The failure to properly quote prior messages may be the most obvious,
but
WLM's frequent interruption with a focus-stealing "error" message
when
there
is NO error makes it much harder to use, too. Maybe I should be
exploring
other newsreaders, but I haven't looked at those since Netscape
Communicator, Pegasus, Eudora and several others in the mid-1990's.
When OE
arrived in 1995, I finally could check on all my email providers with
a
single dial-up phone call, which I could not do with the others, so I
made
my choice and have not felt a need to change since.

Understood, and I respect your choices even though they are very
different from mine.

The top/bottom/inline/quote/snip arguments are constants in
newsgroups,
as
I'm sure you know. They are like religion or politics. They seldom
change
opinions or behaviors on either side. I participated in the debates
a
few
times, but not in the last dozen or so years - and no more.

I'll state my position, just once:

Whether top-posting or bottom-posting is best depends largely on the
reader,
not on the sender of the message. And the reader's preference may
change
with the situation. Most of the time, I download all the new
messages
in a
newsgroup, then start reading them. If there are multiple new
messages
in a
thread, I don't want to have to re-read all the prior ones to get to
the
current discussion, or the latest message in the thread. It's best
if
all
the messages have been top-posted and I can just click my mouse (I've
programmed one button to be CtrlU, for Next Unread Message) to read
the
latest messages in each thread. (And it is irritating to encounter a
bottom-posted one in the thread; I have to scroll all the way to the
bottom
to read it, then continue to the next message. This interrupts my
rhythm
and conversational train of thought.)

There are exceptions. Some messages are written so that "Inline"
comments
are the most effective. In some, I'll extract a line or two and copy
it to
the top and then comment on it there. Sometimes it makes more sense
to
add
my comments at the bottom, so I do. But, most of the time,
top-posting
fits
the way I read newsgroups and reply to posts.


You see what happens, Char. When I get started, it's hard to get me
to
shut
up. But once I've stated my position, I seldom feel like saying it
again,
over and over. So I think I'm done with this subject. I got tired
of
it a
decade ago. ;^}

RC

Well, obviously, I wish you wouldn't top post, ever, but I know I
can't change your mind on that. I agree that everyone finds what
works
best for them, and unfortunately you've chosen a style that conflicts
with 99% of the other posters here, but that's not the point I'm
trying to make.

I was primarily asking if you'd be willing to make the changes that
will (hopefully) place your sig delimiter and your sig at the bottom
of your posts so that others can do proper followups.

According to relic, the specific steps are as follows:
It requires two checks on the WLM Advanced Options: Reply at the
bottom and Sig at the bottom.

Even if you won't put your replies at the bottom, perhaps you can try
the option to place the sig there, (where it belongs). :-)


Just remember that Top Posting with a sig will cause all newsreaders
that work correctly (read: non-microsoft) to remove the sig and
everything beneath it. It makes the post even more unreadable than
just
top-posting without the sig.

Yep, test worked fine.

I was curious about your statement that a MS newsreader doesn't work
correctly if a reply is top-posted with a sig. If other (read: non-MS)
newsreaders remove the sig from a top-posted reply and everything under
it, that to me is not working correctly. Mind you, by habit, I
bottom-post, but I just don't see the logic of your statement, and the
test post I made still has the complete post.

Do you not realize that "X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Live Mail
14.0.8117.416" is a microsoft product?


Well, golly, I sure do!
Your statement was "Top Posting with a sig will cause all newsreaders
that
work correctly (read: non-microsoft) to remove the sig and everything
beneath it." and I just said that I use a MS newsreader, and that the
post I
top-posted to with it still showed everything in the original post. In my
opinion, THAT is how it should work, not remove everything like your
non-MS
reader does. Is that not what you meant in your post, or am I missing
something there?

Yes, you are missing something. The behavior of most non-Microsoft
newsreaders follows the Usenet standards. Items below the signature
delimiter are supposed to be suppressed in replies, since they are, as
they should be, taken to be part of the signature. For emphasis: they
are below the signature delimiter, so they are part of the signature,
regardless of how they got there.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

Oh, OK, I get that part now. But isn't bottom-posting also following (most)
Usenet standards? (I know there are many, many trains of thought on that
question- it's more rhetorical than anything else :-) ) But then the
argument becomes, is it really broken just because it DOESN'T delete
everything below the sig? I've used many newsreaders, mail clients, and
combo products such as OE, WLM, and Thunderbird, over the years. If one
doesn't behave the same as another, does that mean the other is broke? Just
because I don't like the way Thunderbird behaves doesn't mean that it's
broken; it just means I don't like it.
--
SC Tom
-There's no such thing as TMI when asking for tech support.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:53:37 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:

"relic" wrote in message
...

Do you not realize that "X-Newsreader: Microsoft Windows Live Mail
14.0.8117.416" is a microsoft product?

Well, golly, I sure do!
Your statement was "Top Posting with a sig will cause all newsreaders that
work correctly (read: non-microsoft) to remove the sig and everything
beneath it." and I just said that I use a MS newsreader, and that the post I
top-posted to with it still showed everything in the original post.

Your test is flawed. The test isn't to see what shows up in YOUR post.
The test is to see what shows up in REPLIES to your post. When you put
your sig delimiter near the top or middle of your post, anyone using a
proper newsreader trying to follow up to that post will find
themselves with no history except your most recent text.

That's because a standards-compliant newsreader looks for and
recognizes your sig delimiter and properly truncates the post at that
point. Everything below the sig delimiter is part of the sig, by
definition. The problem is that your broken or misconfigured
newsreader is failing to place the sig delimiter in the proper
location.

In my
opinion, THAT is how it should work, not remove everything like your non-MS
reader does. Is that not what you meant in your post, or am I missing
something there?

You're missing something.

--

Char Jackson

On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 18:17:32 -0400, SC Tom wrote:

"Gene E. Bloch" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:53:37 -0400, SC Tom wrote:

SNIP

Yes, you are missing something. The behavior of most non-Microsoft
newsreaders follows the Usenet standards. Items below the signature
delimiter are supposed to be suppressed in replies, since they are, as
they should be, taken to be part of the signature. For emphasis: they
are below the signature delimiter, so they are part of the signature,
regardless of how they got there.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

Oh, OK, I get that part now. But isn't bottom-posting also following (most)
Usenet standards? (I know there are many, many trains of thought on that
question- it's more rhetorical than anything else :-) ) But then the
argument becomes, is it really broken just because it DOESN'T delete
everything below the sig? I've used many newsreaders, mail clients, and
combo products such as OE, WLM, and Thunderbird, over the years. If one
doesn't behave the same as another, does that mean the other is broke? Just
because I don't like the way Thunderbird behaves doesn't mean that it's
broken; it just means I don't like it.

Bottom posts should precede the sig. Top posts and replies should
precede the sig. The sig should be the last thing in any post.

Anything after the sig delimiter is by definition part of the sig. Many
newsreaders put the sig in the original post in a different font
(italic, greyed out, whatever, to indicate that it's not truly part of
the post) and all newsreaders *should* suppress the sig in a reply.

As for whether to top post or bottom post, for many people it seems to
be a religious issue :-)

In practice, I am agnostic on that one. I reply the same way the last
poster did, if I am not the first to reply. Usually, I bottom post if I
am the first replier, unless it's a newsgroup that likes top posting
(yes, there are a few).

My own preference, which I don't usually get to follow, is top posting,
so I don't have to scroll through 12,671 replies to get to the most
recent reply. This is especially irksome if I'm reading a whole long
thread at once, since in that situation the earlier replies are fresh in
my memory.

It's also good form to snip irrelevant quoted material, and it's also
good form to interleave reply text in the quoted material to put it near
what it is replying to.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

"Char Jackson" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 15:48:54 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:


Nope, not working correctly at all. Your contribution above was
followed by a properly formatted sig delimiter, and then the rest of
the post followed that. That's completely broken behavior. Your sig
delimiter belongs at the bottom of the post, (regardless of where you
choose to add your text), not near the top or somewhere in the middle.


Huh???

--
Peter
Please Reply to Newsgroup for the benefit of others
Requests for assistance by email can not and will not be acknowledged.
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
http://www.microsoft.com/protect

"Peter Foldes" wrote in message
...
"Char Jackson" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 15:48:54 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:


Nope, not working correctly at all. Your contribution above was
followed by a properly formatted sig delimiter, and then the rest of
the post followed that. That's completely broken behavior. Your sig
delimiter belongs at the bottom of the post, (regardless of where you
choose to add your text), not near the top or somewhere in the middle.


Huh???

What she said.

"Gene E. Bloch" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 18:17:32 -0400, SC Tom wrote:

"Gene E. Bloch" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:53:37 -0400, SC Tom wrote:

SNIP

Yes, you are missing something. The behavior of most non-Microsoft
newsreaders follows the Usenet standards. Items below the signature
delimiter are supposed to be suppressed in replies, since they are, as
they should be, taken to be part of the signature. For emphasis: they
are below the signature delimiter, so they are part of the signature,
regardless of how they got there.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

Oh, OK, I get that part now. But isn't bottom-posting also following
(most)
Usenet standards? (I know there are many, many trains of thought on that
question- it's more rhetorical than anything else :-) ) But then the
argument becomes, is it really broken just because it DOESN'T delete
everything below the sig? I've used many newsreaders, mail clients, and
combo products such as OE, WLM, and Thunderbird, over the years. If one
doesn't behave the same as another, does that mean the other is broke?
Just
because I don't like the way Thunderbird behaves doesn't mean that it's
broken; it just means I don't like it.

Bottom posts should precede the sig. Top posts and replies should
precede the sig. The sig should be the last thing in any post.

Anything after the sig delimiter is by definition part of the sig. Many
newsreaders put the sig in the original post in a different font
(italic, greyed out, whatever, to indicate that it's not truly part of
the post) and all newsreaders *should* suppress the sig in a reply.

As for whether to top post or bottom post, for many people it seems to
be a religious issue :-)

In practice, I am agnostic on that one. I reply the same way the last
poster did, if I am not the first to reply. Usually, I bottom post if I
am the first replier, unless it's a newsgroup that likes top posting
(yes, there are a few).

My own preference, which I don't usually get to follow, is top posting,
so I don't have to scroll through 12,671 replies to get to the most
recent reply. This is especially irksome if I'm reading a whole long
thread at once, since in that situation the earlier replies are fresh in
my memory.

It's also good form to snip irrelevant quoted material, and it's also
good form to interleave reply text in the quoted material to put it near
what it is replying to.

His confusion is probably because he's never used any newsreader except one
produced by Microsoft, so he's never seen one snip everything below the sig
delimiter.

Top posting is annoying because most non-Microsoft news readers
automatically position your reply at the bottom... the top-post breaks up
the conversation flow.