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  #1  
Old July 29th 18, 02:23 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Fremantle
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Posts: 4
Default Office

Libre or Open Office.

And why ?

Thank you !

I have a large PDF that I saved to a .DOC file so I can edit it.
The PDF contains many images and tables so I am hoping to maintain all
of that so as to minimize rewrite.

I will be changing paragraph text only.
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  #2  
Old July 29th 18, 02:53 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Ant[_2_]
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Posts: 554
Default Office

LibreOffice since it is a fork of OpenOffice and updated. They can edit
PDFs? That's news to me. I just tried it. Wow! Awesome and thanks.


In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general Fremantle wrote:
Libre or Open Office.


And why ?


Thank you !


I have a large PDF that I saved to a .DOC file so I can edit it.
The PDF contains many images and tables so I am hoping to maintain all
of that so as to minimize rewrite.


I will be changing paragraph text only.


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  #3  
Old July 29th 18, 03:09 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
VanguardLH[_2_]
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Posts: 10,881
Default Office

Fremantle wrote:

Libre or Open Office.


You want LibreOffice (a supported fork of OpenOffice). OpenOffice, was
discontinued by Corel back in 2011 and dumped, er, donated to the Apache
Foundation (and why OpenOffice became Apache OpenOffice) to keep
available an archived copy of that old software.
  #4  
Old July 29th 18, 05:48 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Carl Kaufmann
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Posts: 66
Default Office

VanguardLH wrote:
Fremantle wrote:

Libre or Open Office.


You want LibreOffice (a supported fork of OpenOffice). OpenOffice, was
discontinued by Corel back in 2011 and dumped, er, donated to the Apache
Foundation (and why OpenOffice became Apache OpenOffice) to keep
available an archived copy of that old software.


You mean Oracle, rather than Corel, but otherwise correct.

  #5  
Old July 29th 18, 07:57 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default Office

Carl Kaufmann wrote:
VanguardLH wrote:
Fremantle wrote:

Libre or Open Office.


You want LibreOffice (a supported fork of OpenOffice). OpenOffice, was
discontinued by Corel back in 2011 and dumped, er, donated to the Apache
Foundation (and why OpenOffice became Apache OpenOffice) to keep
available an archived copy of that old software.


You mean Oracle, rather than Corel, but otherwise correct.


1986 StarDivision StarOffice
1999 Sun Microsystems buys StarDivision.
StarOffice becomes OpenOffice.
2009 Oracle buys Sun.
Some forking happens. OpenOffice to Apache OpenOffice.
OpenOffice to LibreOffice etc.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...atives.svg.png

The diagram there doesn't necessarily have everything in it.

*******

And don't expect miracles when editing PDF. A person should
always attempt to get source (.doc or .docx) when editing
documents, as this gives the most accurate reproduction
and ability to edit. Editing a derivative such as a PDF
is bound to have cases where an object cannot be edited
when you really needed it.

Paul
  #6  
Old July 29th 18, 10:12 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
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Posts: 2,679
Default Office

In message , Ant
writes:
LibreOffice since it is a fork of OpenOffice and updated. They can edit
PDFs? That's news to me. I just tried it. Wow! Awesome and thanks.

Interesting to know, but Fremantle didn't say he was going to edit the
..pdf - he said he'd saved it as a .doc file.

In microsoft.public.windowsxp.general Fremantle
wrote:
Libre or Open Office.


And why ?


Thank you !


I have a large PDF that I saved to a .DOC file so I can edit it.


What did you use to save it as a .doc file?

The PDF contains many images and tables so I am hoping to maintain all
of that so as to minimize rewrite.


I will be changing paragraph text only.


--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of
them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for
science intact. - Carl Sagan (interview w. Psychology Today published '96-1-1)
  #7  
Old July 29th 18, 03:03 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
dave61430[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 31
Default Office

On Sun, 29 Jul 2018 02:57:12 -0400, Paul wrote:

Carl Kaufmann wrote:
VanguardLH wrote:
Fremantle wrote:

Libre or Open Office.

You want LibreOffice (a supported fork of OpenOffice). OpenOffice,
was discontinued by Corel back in 2011 and dumped, er, donated to the
Apache Foundation (and why OpenOffice became Apache OpenOffice) to
keep available an archived copy of that old software.


You mean Oracle, rather than Corel, but otherwise correct.


1986 StarDivision StarOffice 1999 Sun Microsystems buys StarDivision.
StarOffice becomes OpenOffice.
2009 Oracle buys Sun.
Some forking happens. OpenOffice to Apache OpenOffice.
OpenOffice to LibreOffice etc.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ns/thumb/f/fb/

StarOffice_major_derivatives.svg/1100px-
StarOffice_major_derivatives.svg.png

The diagram there doesn't necessarily have everything in it.

*******

And don't expect miracles when editing PDF. A person should always
attempt to get source (.doc or .docx) when editing documents, as this
gives the most accurate reproduction and ability to edit. Editing a
derivative such as a PDF is bound to have cases where an object cannot
be edited when you really needed it.

Paul


Well he isn't editing the .pdf which is a good thing for despite claims
to the contrary, none of the software that claims to do this only do so
in certain cases. I suspect most software that exports to .pdf will read
it back, but I haven't tested this. I've had .pdf's that were editable in
one or another of the packages to which I have access and in some cases
not at all. I've no idea why some do and some don't, maybe depends on how
the .pdf was generated.
I have used Libre Office, Serif PagePlus in windows and Scribus to name a
few.
Note, almost all editing programs these days will export to .pdf as does
my bank statements. As an exercise, try exporting the same document using
one of the many printer drivers available. You will find while they all
do the job, file sizes vary widely. For file size, Scribus is the worst,
creating a huge 350mb file when PagePlus produces a 50mb file for the
same publication. A Scribus forum poster claimed Scribus more accurately
rendered the text attributes but I'm not sure. I can print the Scribus
file using one of the .pdf print drivers, but since the file size isn't a
problem for the local print shops, I leave things as are. The downsize to
large files is if you want to email to a group.
It would be interesting to know how genuine Adobe products handle this.

  #8  
Old July 29th 18, 03:35 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Ken Blake[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,221
Default Office

On Sat, 28 Jul 2018 18:23:54 -0700, Fremantle
wrote:

Libre or Open Office.

And why ?

Thank you !




You want to know which is better? Here's my recommendation:

Don't ask. Ignore everyone's opinion. They are both free. Try them
both and decide for yourself which one *you* like better.
  #9  
Old July 29th 18, 04:15 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Office

"Ken Blake" wrote

| You want to know which is better? Here's my recommendation:
|
| Don't ask. Ignore everyone's opinion. They are both free. Try them
| both and decide for yourself which one *you* like better.

Anyone can, of course, try both. But it doesn't
mean they don't think for themselves just
because they solicit opinions.

Also, this is a special case. It's not just brand x vs brand y.
As I understand it, most of the OO people went to LO
when Oracle bought OO. There seems to be wide agreement
that LO has had a lot more work put into it. (Someone else
may have a more complete version of the story.)

A note for the XP group:

LO 6 won't run on XP. 5 is the latest. I don't expect
you're missing much. I've been updating for years and
see no notable changes. It's obscenely bloated. It's
free. It works pretty well. But it doesn't perfectly
render docx is there's any layout complexity. All
of those things have been true for as long as I can
remember.

As for OO, they won't let a visitor see the options
without javascript enabled. There's only a note
that you'll have to go fishing around in the version
storage online.... Apparently they've broken their site
so that they can use script to guess a visitor's OS.
For your convenience. Woe to anyone spoofing that.


  #10  
Old July 29th 18, 04:21 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Office

"Fremantle" wrote

| Libre or Open Office.
|
You might find this a useful read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openof...che_OpenOffice

It provides a brief history of the OO/LO
political debacle over the years and may
give you some idea of the differences.


  #11  
Old July 29th 18, 04:36 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Big Al[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,588
Default Office

On 07/28/2018 09:23 PM, Fremantle wrote:
Libre or Open Office.

And why ?

Thank you !

I have a large PDF that I saved to a .DOC file so I can edit it.
The PDF contains many images and tables so I am hoping to maintain all
of that so as to minimize rewrite.

I will be changing paragraph text only.


After trying both of them, I found the Libre did a better job of
rendering most documents, pdf & doc. I was using Windows at the time
and didn't want what seemed like a bloated Word (MS Office) products. I
also tried a 3rd product, don't think it was WPS Office, but it was
horrible. Now that I'm on Linux, it's built into the system and
updates cleanly so I'm happy and working fine.

I just found out too that I could edit PDF's. My MRI/X-RAY lab allows
me to download the reports as PDF's but they usually are 1 page with a
2nd almost blank page. I like to delete that last page. And editing
printed recipes taking out the ads is a great use too.

Here is an interesting chart showing Libre and MS Office.
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/...crosoft_Office

  #12  
Old July 29th 18, 04:56 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Office

dave61430 wrote:

Well he isn't editing the .pdf which is a good thing for despite claims
to the contrary, none of the software that claims to do this only do so
in certain cases. I suspect most software that exports to .pdf will read
it back, but I haven't tested this. I've had .pdf's that were editable in
one or another of the packages to which I have access and in some cases
not at all. I've no idea why some do and some don't, maybe depends on how
the .pdf was generated.
I have used Libre Office, Serif PagePlus in windows and Scribus to name a
few.
Note, almost all editing programs these days will export to .pdf as does
my bank statements. As an exercise, try exporting the same document using
one of the many printer drivers available. You will find while they all
do the job, file sizes vary widely. For file size, Scribus is the worst,
creating a huge 350mb file when PagePlus produces a 50mb file for the
same publication. A Scribus forum poster claimed Scribus more accurately
rendered the text attributes but I'm not sure. I can print the Scribus
file using one of the .pdf print drivers, but since the file size isn't a
problem for the local print shops, I leave things as are. The downsize to
large files is if you want to email to a group.
It would be interesting to know how genuine Adobe products handle this.


Fonts can use "subset". Check the PDF information
page, to see if full fonts are embedded, versus
subset. Subset is used a lot for "legal reasons"
to prevent "font theft". A decent PDF editor may
refuse to edit text on a page. Why ? A subset
font prevents changing any letters.

There was a time, when a document would have 2MB
of fonts per printed page, and the document would be huge.

Images can be stored in the PDF at very high resolution.
This becomes obvious when zooming into 3200% and the
image is sharp and detailed. But this also wastes a lot of
bytes. FrameMaker or FrameBuilder was good for this
kind of work.

B&W images can have the CCITT FAX 4 compressor applied
to them. This is an output option on Acrobat Distiller.
That's a good choice for B&W scans to PDF for preservation
of old paper documentation.

Color images have available compressors too.

Reducing resolution of images can save a lot
of bytes. In some industries, this is epidemic.
Take a router hardware manual as an example.
It might have a hundred screen shots of the web
interface, absolutely none of which are readable.
Why even have a manual if you insist on doing that ?

With the right tools, the user is in control of
the byte count and the image quality.

To see just how efficient PDF can be, find a couple
of the Adobe reference manuals. Like PLRM or one
of the versions of the PDF standard. You can have
a thousand pages of printed material, in a 10MB file.
Obviously, they put the effort into that, using
the document as a "showpiece" of their craft.

Paul
  #13  
Old July 29th 18, 05:11 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Office

Mayayana wrote:

LO 6 won't run on XP. 5 is the latest. I don't expect
you're missing much. I've been updating for years and
see no notable changes. It's obscenely bloated. It's
free.


In my opinion, it's structured well. They decomposed
the problem well. I looked at the mess that represents
all the versions of Office that Microsoft ever produced,
and they seem to have dealt with that well.

However, the "implementation" within individual modules leaves
a lot to be desired.

It's failed every "quality" test I've tried on it
here, and I wasn't even trying to break it. For example,
one document I saved for output, the output was "double-printed"
in the output file. It was rendered twice.

I agree with the "no notable changes" comment.
Things change, but it doesn't leave a strong
impression of being "fixed". It's kinda like
a rotating bug generator. There's more things
that can break, than humans can keep up with.

What does that tell us ? That the developers
are not document specialists and are general
programmers ? That there aren't enough PhDs
working there ? I don't really know what to
make of it all, in terms of constructive
criticism.

*******

To give an example by analogy from the FOSS
world, take Firefox and the Firefox choice
of print engine. I don't know what the first print
engine was called exactly, but one day the Firefox team
decided to switch to Cairo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_3.0

"Because of Cairo's lack of support for Windows 95,
Windows 98, Windows ME, and Windows NT (versions 4.0
and below), and because Microsoft ended support for
Windows 98 and Windows ME on July 11, 2006, Firefox 3
does not run on those operating systems."

It was worse than that. At the time, Cairo wasn't
even finished. Some output tasks in Firefox were
rendered as bitmaps (slow, inefficient). By gluing
in some other FOSS software, a software that
wasn't finished, what does that say about
your developers ? Probably not skilled in the
craft of printing ? But why include an unfinished
piece of software ? Wouldn't it have made sense
to cut over when the Cairo team said "all Done" ???

That's the kind of feeling I get from LibreOffice
some times when it crashes.

And the choice of OpenGL inside LibreOffice, it
seems they didn't do enough "special casing"
in the code, to compensate for the differences
("quirks") in the Windows OpenGL. For one of the
design problems in LibreOffice, it took about
the fourth version of Win10 before the windows
side of the problem was fixed (that's the update
where Task Manager gets a GPU pane for GPU usage).
And that only works if you have a very modern
video card ("bakery fresh driver"). I haven't had
a chance to see that feature yet, as my video
card is too old.

Paul
  #14  
Old July 29th 18, 05:17 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Office

Big Al wrote:
On 07/28/2018 09:23 PM, Fremantle wrote:
Libre or Open Office.

And why ?

Thank you !

I have a large PDF that I saved to a .DOC file so I can edit it.
The PDF contains many images and tables so I am hoping to maintain all
of that so as to minimize rewrite.

I will be changing paragraph text only.


After trying both of them, I found the Libre did a better job of
rendering most documents, pdf & doc. I was using Windows at the time
and didn't want what seemed like a bloated Word (MS Office) products. I
also tried a 3rd product, don't think it was WPS Office, but it was
horrible. Now that I'm on Linux, it's built into the system and
updates cleanly so I'm happy and working fine.

I just found out too that I could edit PDF's. My MRI/X-RAY lab allows
me to download the reports as PDF's but they usually are 1 page with a
2nd almost blank page. I like to delete that last page. And editing
printed recipes taking out the ads is a great use too.

Here is an interesting chart showing Libre and MS Office.
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/...crosoft_Office


LO is more likely to work right on the Linux side.
I think they're more comfortable making that version.

Paul

  #15  
Old July 29th 18, 06:16 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,alt.windows7.general
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Office

"Paul" wrote

| To give an example by analogy from the FOSS
| world, take Firefox and the Firefox choice
| of print engine. I don't know what the first print
| engine was called exactly, but one day the Firefox team
| decided to switch to Cairo.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_3.0
|
| "Because of Cairo's lack of support for Windows 95,
| Windows 98, Windows ME, and Windows NT (versions 4.0
| and below), and because Microsoft ended support for
| Windows 98 and Windows ME on July 11, 2006, Firefox 3
| does not run on those operating systems."
|
| It was worse than that. At the time, Cairo wasn't
| even finished. Some output tasks in Firefox were
| rendered as bitmaps (slow, inefficient). By gluing
| in some other FOSS software, a software that
| wasn't finished, what does that say about
| your developers ? Probably not skilled in the
| craft of printing ? But why include an unfinished
| piece of software ? Wouldn't it have made sense
| to cut over when the Cairo team said "all Done" ???
|

That's an interesting point. I don't know much
about Cairo, but I do know the programming world
often falls for irrational fads. (Java, XML, JSON,
agile programming, top ten language contests, etc).
I suspect part of the attraction to Cairo may also
be the ability to cut out a lot of cross-platform
work. They want to support Mac, Linux and Windows
without having to actually write the native code.
I think that's also part of why Java is never entirely
gone from LO. Cross-platform is a dream that's
never been entirely feasible.

| That's the kind of feeling I get from LibreOffice
| some times when it crashes.
|

You must use it a lot more than I do. I mostly
just do occasional things like writing up estimates
and receipts. Even those are often done with pen
and paper. I detest all office products I've tried
simply because it's so hard to make them behave.
A simple job like laying out 10 business cards for
printing becomes an all-day affair. But I haven't
found LO any worse than other programs. I've never
seen it crash, though it takes a ridiculously long
time to get to its feet in the first place.

I guess another big problem is the tendency to
overproduce. PhotoShop... MS Office... They cater
to an audience of people who actually use those
programs for a living. So extensive capability is
desirable. Couple that with the need to always be
adding features in order to sell new product and
it ends up getting carried away with complexity.


 




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