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#1
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Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files
Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files
Win7 Ultimate WMC VLC K-Lite Codec Pack I've been using Media Center to record/time-shift 4 TV channels. I play them back with VLC because it allows me to increase the playback speed to 2X. It's been working flawlessly for several years. Recently, Avira AV went rogue and resisted all attempts to uninstall it. I gave up and reinstalled the OS. Now, I have a random symptom that I can't track down. Playing the .wtv files with VLC. If I try to skip forward, the first skip always works. Subsequent skips may or may not have a 10 second or more delay. The screen is frozen and nothing happens until the delay expires. It's similar to a buffering problem, but the CPU activity stays low and there's no obvious increased disk activity. This is file related. If the .wtv has the skip delay, it always has the skip delay. If it skips correctly, it always skips correctly. I initially suspected a codec issue, but that shouldn't be random. Other recordings from that session may or may not have the symptom. The symptom is unrelated to the selected playback speed as long as I keep it below where the hardware can't keep up. There's a VLC setting "fast skip" that was not enabled. I enabled it and the problem went away...until sometime later when it started happening again. ..wtv files recorded before the system reload have never exhibited the symptom. Recorded files that exhibit the symptom continue to exhibit the system when played at a later date. All files always play/skip without delay when played with WMC. I've copied the files to a different partition and the problem persists, although it's somewhat random. Rebooting doesn't help. Defragmenting doesn't help. Registry cleaners and unnecessary file deleters don't help. The files play fine and skip fine using Media Center for playback, but I haven't found a way to increase the playback speed with WMC. That functionality is essential. It sounds like it's mostly related to recording, so... I picked a TV channel and restricted recording to one tuner. Playback skip works fine. I cycled thru all 4 tuners and all worked fine. Since it's random, I still can't be sure that it's not a tuner driver or configuration issue. I copied a bad file to a different computer and it plays/skips correctly in VLC. Same file played across the network with VLC doesn't seem to have the problem, but the network speed limitations to introduce a lesser delay in the skips. If there were a way to increase the playback speed of WMC, that would solve my problem. That's the only reason I use VLC for playback. I've reloaded WMC. I've reinstalled VLC. Nothing helps. I've not found any log issues showing an error, but maybe I'm not looking in the right place. Any suggestions on what I might try to diagnose this random symptom? |
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#2
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Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files
mike wrote:
Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files Win7 Ultimate WMC VLC K-Lite Codec Pack I've been using Media Center to record/time-shift 4 TV channels. I play them back with VLC because it allows me to increase the playback speed to 2X. It's been working flawlessly for several years. Recently, Avira AV went rogue and resisted all attempts to uninstall it. I gave up and reinstalled the OS. Now, I have a random symptom that I can't track down. Playing the .wtv files with VLC. If I try to skip forward, the first skip always works. Subsequent skips may or may not have a 10 second or more delay. The screen is frozen and nothing happens until the delay expires. It's similar to a buffering problem, but the CPU activity stays low and there's no obvious increased disk activity. This is file related. If the .wtv has the skip delay, it always has the skip delay. If it skips correctly, it always skips correctly. I initially suspected a codec issue, but that shouldn't be random. Other recordings from that session may or may not have the symptom. The symptom is unrelated to the selected playback speed as long as I keep it below where the hardware can't keep up. There's a VLC setting "fast skip" that was not enabled. I enabled it and the problem went away...until sometime later when it started happening again. .wtv files recorded before the system reload have never exhibited the symptom. Recorded files that exhibit the symptom continue to exhibit the system when played at a later date. All files always play/skip without delay when played with WMC. I've copied the files to a different partition and the problem persists, although it's somewhat random. Rebooting doesn't help. Defragmenting doesn't help. Registry cleaners and unnecessary file deleters don't help. The files play fine and skip fine using Media Center for playback, but I haven't found a way to increase the playback speed with WMC. That functionality is essential. It sounds like it's mostly related to recording, so... I picked a TV channel and restricted recording to one tuner. Playback skip works fine. I cycled thru all 4 tuners and all worked fine. Since it's random, I still can't be sure that it's not a tuner driver or configuration issue. I copied a bad file to a different computer and it plays/skips correctly in VLC. Same file played across the network with VLC doesn't seem to have the problem, but the network speed limitations to introduce a lesser delay in the skips. If there were a way to increase the playback speed of WMC, that would solve my problem. That's the only reason I use VLC for playback. I've reloaded WMC. I've reinstalled VLC. Nothing helps. I've not found any log issues showing an error, but maybe I'm not looking in the right place. Any suggestions on what I might try to diagnose this random symptom? WTV (Windows Recorded TV Show) is a Microsoft proprietary file format. It is a container using MPEG-2 compression and audio uses either MPEG-1 Layer 2 or Dolby Digital AC-3 compression. It may contain metadata along with DRM (Digital Rights Management) control. If the show contained ads, they might use DRM to make sure you see them when you play the show so you cannot simply skip past them. If you are recording shows using Windows Media Center, it uses the SBE (Stream Buffer Engine) to create the .wtv file. Because you are capturing streamed media from a server, quality can vary wildly and what the server delivers can change if you re-stream later. WMC can be converted back to the older ..dvr-ms proprietary format but I don't know that will progressing forward or backward regarding quality of content or resolve your problem. Note: Microsoft abandoned the WTV media file format which irritated many users encouraged by WMC to create WTV files. Since WMC was intended as the only player for WTV files, and since WMC got dropped by Microsoft in Windows 10, it's an orphaned media format. I went to wiki.videolan.org and search on "wtv". Looks like it hasn't even been mentioned since 2015 (and that was only to propose a mentor, or proponent, of the media format to add support for it). Aside: For capturing streaming media, the best that I've found, so far, is Jaksta or Applian Replay Media Catcher (RMC, which is just a rebranded Jaksta) but it is payware. They still have to frequently update it to accomdate changes at sites regarding how they are delivering streamed content. They do take user reports about capture problems at sites (and forward them to Jaksta who actually develops the program). I found WMC to be lots of glitz with lacking depth. So I also went to VLC as a player and RMC for stream capture. Also, the granularity of sync points (where you can skip forward/back) might be greater than you had originally if the media is being retrieved from a server rather than downloaded and stored locally, and granularity might change between what you downloaded before and what you download now for the same video. I see this all the time in VLC where I set it to loop from A to B and repeat but a large granularity means I cannot get the loop to start and stop exactly where I want. After doing a fresh install of Windows, did you also proceed through all the updates for Windows and other MS programs from Microsoft's Windows Update site? Did you update all your hardware drivers, including for the mobo's chipset? You might've done a lot of updating in all those years of using VLC to play WTV files that you neglected in your fresh Windows install. After the fresh install of Windows 7, did you test before installing the KLite Codec Pack to retest for the problem or did you install KLite before testing? You did not say which KLite package you installed -- Basic, Standard, Full, or Mega -- or that you installed KLite after the fresh Windows install. Hopefully you did not install their Beta package if you installed KLite. In the past, I had installed the Mega pack but since backed off the Full pack (plus I do a custom install since I don't need all products in either, like the media players). Did you let the KLite installer use the defaults for codecs on filetype or content type or did you change the defaults? Oops, just remember VLC won't use any codecs installed by KLite. When using VLC, it doesn't use *any* codec in the OS, including those you installed by KLite. VLC uses its own private repository of codecs that it stores under its install path rolled into one, or more, DLL files. Did you install the latest version of VLC to make sure you got its latest private codec libraries? Don't use an old saved download of VLC. Get the newest version, download it, and install that version. A lot of functionality in VLC and other free players is the use of the ffmpeg library. At one time, ffmpeg didn't work with WTV as it was Microsoft proprietary. ffmepg is used for playback. The codecs are snippets of code for the algorithms needed to decode a particular media file format. You did not mention the bitwidth of your Windows 7. There is 32- and 64-bit. You also did not mention the bitwidth of the installed VLC program. If it doesn't say, load VLC and check in Task Manager's Processes tab. In x64 Windows, if the process name is followed by "*32" then it is a 32-bit program. If "*32" is missing (no bitwidth appended) then it is a 64-bit program. I use Windows 7 x64 and VLC x64 so the process name is just "vlc.exe" (no *32 appended qualifier) in Task Manager's Processes tab. I only see a single "Windows" download of VLC so they might've rolled both 32- and 64-bit versions of VLC into the same installer but you might get a choice during the install. If so, pick VLC x64 if you are using Windows x64. VLC comes with some plug-ins (aka extensions). Did you install all the default ones during its installation? Are these copyrighted WTV files? I don't know if VLC was setup to play copyrighted (DRM'ed) content. WTV format's popularity is pretty low. You might want to pick a standard media coding when saving files, if permitted, or use a converter to get away from WTV. WMC creates some obscenely huge WTV files so you might save a lot of space by recording the stream into a more efficient container. Since the problem is with playback in VLC (you never mentioned WMC had any problems playing the WTV files), you might want to inquire over at VLC forums about problems with that program. https://forum.videolan.org/ Searched there on "wtv" and "dvr-ms" (do an advanced search and group by topic so you don't end up with a long list of posts which are each one in each thread). Looks like support was added to VLC for those formats but the reverse engineering did not produce a wholly compatible player for WTV. It is unclear if you are trying to stream the same or different WTV containered media streams or trying to play downloaded and saved .wtv files (which are the entire media content and not some pointer to a server). Since Microsoft abandoned the WTV container format, not likely VideoLAN will invest much, if any, resources to fix bugs with their code to support WTV. For example, someone noted there the delay when trying to jump forward or backward that you noted. See: https://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic...6626&hilit=wtv That "sometimes" the low granularity in choosing a play position is not clear if the behavior is evident within the same WTV file (i.e., sometimes there is a lag and sometimes not) or one WTV has no lag while a different WTV file does have lag (which could be due to granularity in sync points). Are you doing something non-typical that you did not mention, like using an application to watch your video card's/chip's output across multiple monitors? I've see one user, for example, that used The Maxifier (http://www.mods.com.au/Maxifier/) who found that setting it to "fit to screen" worked but "full screen" caused playback problems. Apparently WMC itself can have performance problems with multiple monitors, like those using the Aero theme and noticing disabling transparency removed the problems. I'd say dump the WTV format. It's abandoned. VLC's reversed engineered implementation doesn't look complete or bug-free. If you are trying to capture new streamed shows, use something better for stream capture (and NOT screen capture tools which will record any window you accidentally open over the playback window, your mouse crossing over the video, any jerkiness due to buffering, and hiccups in playback due to network hiccups, etc). If you have lots of .wtv files on your computer then look at converting them to a non-Microsoft (aka standard) format. |
#3
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Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files
mike wrote:
Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files Win7 Ultimate WMC VLC K-Lite Codec Pack I've been using Media Center to record/time-shift 4 TV channels. I play them back with VLC because it allows me to increase the playback speed to 2X. It's been working flawlessly for several years. Recently, Avira AV went rogue and resisted all attempts to uninstall it. I gave up and reinstalled the OS. Now, I have a random symptom that I can't track down. Playing the .wtv files with VLC. If I try to skip forward, the first skip always works. Subsequent skips may or may not have a 10 second or more delay. The screen is frozen and nothing happens until the delay expires. It's similar to a buffering problem, but the CPU activity stays low and there's no obvious increased disk activity. This is file related. If the .wtv has the skip delay, it always has the skip delay. If it skips correctly, it always skips correctly. I initially suspected a codec issue, but that shouldn't be random. Other recordings from that session may or may not have the symptom. The symptom is unrelated to the selected playback speed as long as I keep it below where the hardware can't keep up. There's a VLC setting "fast skip" that was not enabled. I enabled it and the problem went away...until sometime later when it started happening again. .wtv files recorded before the system reload have never exhibited the symptom. Recorded files that exhibit the symptom continue to exhibit the system when played at a later date. All files always play/skip without delay when played with WMC. I've copied the files to a different partition and the problem persists, although it's somewhat random. Rebooting doesn't help. Defragmenting doesn't help. Registry cleaners and unnecessary file deleters don't help. The files play fine and skip fine using Media Center for playback, but I haven't found a way to increase the playback speed with WMC. That functionality is essential. It sounds like it's mostly related to recording, so... I picked a TV channel and restricted recording to one tuner. Playback skip works fine. I cycled thru all 4 tuners and all worked fine. Since it's random, I still can't be sure that it's not a tuner driver or configuration issue. I copied a bad file to a different computer and it plays/skips correctly in VLC. Same file played across the network with VLC doesn't seem to have the problem, but the network speed limitations to introduce a lesser delay in the skips. If there were a way to increase the playback speed of WMC, that would solve my problem. That's the only reason I use VLC for playback. I've reloaded WMC. I've reinstalled VLC. Nothing helps. I've not found any log issues showing an error, but maybe I'm not looking in the right place. Any suggestions on what I might try to diagnose this random symptom? I only got a tuner card a couple months ago, and what impressed me the most about the .wtv files, was the number of streams included in the recording. This varies from channel to channel - not every TV channel includes the same stream types, and it's not even certain the labels on them are correct. I would take one of the non-working cases, and use FFMPEG to look for clues as to the nature of the problem. ******* There are a couple playback possibilities on video. Your VLC example, uses FFMPEG/LibAVCodec for playback. That means, it doesn't need KLite to work. The codecs are compiled into the library provided by FFMPEG. A person can also download a build of FFMPEG, that includes ffmpeg.exe (convert/massage), ffplay.exe, and ffprobe.exe (packet extract). (The nightly was broken when I tried to use it. Try an older or release version.) http://ffmpeg.zeranoe.com/builds/ When you use Windows Media Player, it would not have an MPEG2 codec in it. WMP would use DirectShow and that constructs a "graph" (GraphEdit) that defines a set of functional blocks to decode the video. The file would be demultiplexed into audio and video streams, and the video stream type would need a CODEC. WMP doesn't have a huge binary blob with "everything" in it like FFMPEG would. DirectShow allows CODECs to have numeric priority codes assigned (bias), and a third-party CODEC that does the same job as an MS CODEC, if the bias was set high, the constructed playback graph would stop using the MS Codec and use the third party one. You could have three MPEG2 decoders from their different CODEC packs, and the bias value would decide which one "wins" and is used. Generally, the third-party CODEC method is filled with the potential for "land mines", due to how it is constructed. So when you're trying your two test cases (VLC versus WMP), remember that their subsystems are separate from one another. If both showed the exact same symptoms, that would mean a problem with the content. With FFPLAY, you can control which streams are used. ffplay -ast 2 -vst 3 -x 704 -y 480 some.wtv On two of my local TV channels, the stream numbers differ by one. The second channel might be like this. ffplay -ast 3 -vst 4 -x 704 -y 480 some.wtv The recording software doesn't have to interfere with the recording process. AFAIK, the baffling stream collection, is being sent from the station itself, and Windows Media Center isn't transcoding or "interpolating" something for you. But when you use FFMPEG, you have the option of picking specific streams and copying the content into a separate file. Paul |
#4
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Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files
"VanguardLH" wrote in message
... WTV (Windows Recorded TV Show) is a Microsoft proprietary file format. It is a container using MPEG-2 compression and audio uses either MPEG-1 Layer 2 or Dolby Digital AC-3 compression. It may contain metadata along with DRM (Digital Rights Management) control. If the show contained ads, they might use DRM to make sure you see them when you play the show so you cannot simply skip past them. If you are recording shows using Windows Media Center, it uses the SBE (Stream Buffer Engine) to create the .wtv file. Because you are capturing streamed media from a server, quality can vary wildly and what the server delivers can change if you re-stream later. WMC can be converted back to the older .dvr-ms proprietary format but I don't know that will progressing forward or backward regarding quality of content or resolve your problem. Note: Microsoft abandoned the WTV media file format which irritated many users encouraged by WMC to create WTV files. Since WMC was intended as the only player for WTV files, and since WMC got dropped by Microsoft in Windows 10, it's an orphaned media format. I went to wiki.videolan.org and search on "wtv". Looks like it hasn't even been mentioned since 2015 (and that was only to propose a mentor, or proponent, of the media format to add support for it). The one big advantage that WTV and DVR-MS formats have over TS (the default for most other recording software) is that it contains metadata for the episode title, plot summary etc. Software that records to TS (*) doesn't do this (maybe the TS standard doesn't allow metadata) so they solve the problem by producing a separate XML file for the metadata, which means if you rename the TS file you have to rename the XML to keep things together. It's a shame that Win10 doesn't include Windows Media Centre (and that if you update from Win 7, WMC is forcibly removed) because it was a good program, even if it didn't allow multiple overlapping recordings on the same multiplex which Next PVR does. (*) eg NextPVR |
#5
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Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files
On 9/22/2017 2:19 AM, NY wrote:
"VanguardLH" wrote in message ... WTV (Windows Recorded TV Show) is a Microsoft proprietary file format. It is a container using MPEG-2 compression and audio uses either MPEG-1 Layer 2 or Dolby Digital AC-3 compression. It may contain metadata along with DRM (Digital Rights Management) control. If the show contained ads, they might use DRM to make sure you see them when you play the show so you cannot simply skip past them. If you are recording shows using Windows Media Center, it uses the SBE (Stream Buffer Engine) to create the .wtv file. Because you are capturing streamed media from a server, quality can vary wildly and what the server delivers can change if you re-stream later. WMC can be converted back to the older .dvr-ms proprietary format but I don't know that will progressing forward or backward regarding quality of content or resolve your problem. Note: Microsoft abandoned the WTV media file format which irritated many users encouraged by WMC to create WTV files. Since WMC was intended as the only player for WTV files, and since WMC got dropped by Microsoft in Windows 10, it's an orphaned media format. I went to wiki.videolan.org and search on "wtv". Looks like it hasn't even been mentioned since 2015 (and that was only to propose a mentor, or proponent, of the media format to add support for it). The one big advantage that WTV and DVR-MS formats have over TS (the default for most other recording software) is that it contains metadata for the episode title, plot summary etc. Software that records to TS (*) doesn't do this (maybe the TS standard doesn't allow metadata) so they solve the problem by producing a separate XML file for the metadata, which means if you rename the TS file you have to rename the XML to keep things together. It's a shame that Win10 doesn't include Windows Media Centre (and that if you update from Win 7, WMC is forcibly removed) because it was a good program, even if it didn't allow multiple overlapping recordings on the same multiplex which Next PVR does. (*) eg NextPVR Thanks, guys, for the inputs. Summary... I had a system that worked. It's now broke. I did my best to reload it the way it was. I never installed any updates. Repeating that and expecting a different result is optimistic. I doubt that it's the fault of any program. It's likely an error in misconfiguration. I have a second identical computer. I replaced some caps and it now works. I think I'll have the option to go thru a lot of configuration files pre and post rebuild to look for differences. I can diddle it without messing up my active media computer. The reason for media center is that it just works. The interface is intuitive. Tuner drivers exist for windows. The issues with Rovi are minor compared to alternative FREE program guides for USA ATSC broadcasts. If you're time-shifting, the file size is irrelevant. ..wtv files seem to have fewer motion artifacts than alternative compressed formats. It just works...if you don't fork it up rebuilding the system. |
#6
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Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files
"mike" wrote in message
news .wtv files seem to have fewer motion artifacts than alternative compressed formats. I'd have though that all off-air recordings, in DVR-MS, WTV and TS formats, would be identical apart from the wrapper around the data. So I'd have expected the same degree of motion and JPEG compression artefacts. It just works...if you don't fork it up rebuilding the system. Or if MS to fork it up for you by removing WMC if you upgrade to W10. I agree that WMC has a nice UI, and seems to work with all devices that I've tried. I've not tried it with multiple tuners, mainly because of cowardice: I didn't want to mess up a system that was working well with one tuner. WMC's only frustration is that you cannot schedule two overlapping recordings *even if they are on the same multiplex*. It has that advantage over NextPVR that you can ask it to look for programmes that are not yet listed in the EPG: you can say (effectively) "look out for the movie XYZ or the TV series ABC if it happens to the scheduled any time in the future" whereas with Next PVR you can only schedule programmes that are in the EPG (or add a manual LCN, date, times recording). |
#7
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Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files
On 9/24/2017 6:37 AM, NY wrote:
"mike" wrote in message news .wtv files seem to have fewer motion artifacts than alternative compressed formats. I'd have though that all off-air recordings, in DVR-MS, WTV and TS formats, would be identical apart from the wrapper around the data. So I'd have expected the same degree of motion and JPEG compression artefacts. I think the point is that .wtv files aren't compressed. That's why they're so huge. The off-air data just gets shoved onto the drive. If you use some other storage format, it takes a lot of horsepower to get the video onto the hard drive...and back off again. I can record 4 channels and play a .wtv recording simultaneously with a 2.8GHZ dual core pentium. Virtually all the horsepower is consumed by rendering the video. The reduction in artifacts is due to the lack of compression. I think the limit is the disk drive bandwidth. When the system is busy, I sometimes see major pixellation on a scene change, but it recovers quickly and the frame skip is pretty effective. Only complaint I have is that I messed something up and can't seamlessly skip forward any more. It just works...if you don't fork it up rebuilding the system. Or if MS to fork it up for you by removing WMC if you upgrade to W10. That ain't gonna happen until there's something that I absolutely, positively, have to have that only works in win10. I've put the free upgrade on 18 systems justincase...but they are mostly reverted to win7. I agree that WMC has a nice UI, and seems to work with all devices that I've tried. I've not tried it with multiple tuners, mainly because of cowardice: I didn't want to mess up a system that was working well with one tuner. If it works with either tuner, it should work with both. I have seen reports that you may have problems if you have two tuners that are exactly the same so that the system can't tell which is which. WMC's only frustration is that you cannot schedule two overlapping recordings *even if they are on the same multiplex*. Don't understand what that means. If you have only one tuner, how could you record more than one stream? With multiple tuners, I record overlapping broadcasts just fine. It has that advantage over NextPVR that you can ask it to look for programmes that are not yet listed in the EPG: you can say (effectively) "look out for the movie XYZ or the TV series ABC if it happens to the scheduled any time in the future" whereas with Next PVR you can only schedule programmes that are in the EPG (or add a manual LCN, date, times recording). Tell me more. I haven't found ANY alternative FREE EPG that works on US broadcasts. But, that deficiency would make it a no-starter anyway. |
#8
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Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files
In message , mike
writes: [] an error in misconfiguration. [] As opposed to correct misconfiguration ... (-: -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Parkinson: "What caused your conversion to women - was it the love of a good one?" George Melly: "No the love of several bad ones" (Lizbuff in UMRA '01-4-25) |
#9
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Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files
On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 02:38:06 -0700, mike wrote:
On 9/24/2017 6:37 AM, NY wrote: "mike" wrote in message news .wtv files seem to have fewer motion artifacts than alternative compressed formats. I'd have though that all off-air recordings, in DVR-MS, WTV and TS formats, would be identical apart from the wrapper around the data. So I'd have expected the same degree of motion and JPEG compression artefacts. I think the point is that .wtv files aren't compressed. That's why they're so huge. The off-air data just gets shoved onto the drive. If you use some other storage format, it takes a lot of horsepower to get the video onto the hard drive...and back off again. I can record 4 channels and play a .wtv recording simultaneously with a 2.8GHZ dual core pentium. Virtually all the horsepower is consumed by rendering the video. The reduction in artifacts is due to the lack of compression. I think the limit is the disk drive bandwidth. When the system is busy, I sometimes see major pixellation on a scene change, but it recovers quickly and the frame skip is pretty effective. Only complaint I have is that I messed something up and can't seamlessly skip forward any more. Have you tried another player, something other than VLC and WMP? I've tried VLC a few times over the years and it has always been prone to crashes, so my preferred player is MPC-HC. Here's a comparison of VLC versus MPC-HC, one of many: https://www.techhive.com/article/2892383/which-is-the-better-free-video-player-mpc-hc-176-vs-vlc-22.html The latest release of MPC-HC might be the last, but I'll use it until it no longer works. https://mpc-hc.org/2017/07/16/1.7.13...-and-farewell/ Get MPC-HC he https://mpc-hc.org/downloads/ -- Char Jackson |
#10
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Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files
mike wrote:
On 9/24/2017 6:37 AM, NY wrote: "mike" wrote in message news .wtv files seem to have fewer motion artifacts than alternative compressed formats. I'd have though that all off-air recordings, in DVR-MS, WTV and TS formats, would be identical apart from the wrapper around the data. So I'd have expected the same degree of motion and JPEG compression artefacts. I think the point is that .wtv files aren't compressed. That's why they're so huge. The off-air data just gets shoved onto the drive. If you use some other storage format, it takes a lot of horsepower to get the video onto the hard drive...and back off again. I can record 4 channels and play a .wtv recording simultaneously with a 2.8GHZ dual core pentium. Virtually all the horsepower is consumed by rendering the video. The reduction in artifacts is due to the lack of compression. I think the limit is the disk drive bandwidth. When the system is busy, I sometimes see major pixellation on a scene change, but it recovers quickly and the frame skip is pretty effective. Only complaint I have is that I messed something up and can't seamlessly skip forward any more. You have a strange model of what .wtv is doing. This is just a paste of the teaser description from a Google search. This is what my OTA reception here would be using. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8VSB Throughput. In the 6 MHz (megahertz) channel used for broadcast ATSC, 8VSB carries a symbol rate of 10.76 megabaud, a gross bit rate of 32 Mbit/s, and a net bit rate of 19.39 Mbit/s of usable data. Using FFMPEG (ffplay), let's dump a .wtv recorded on my Hauppauge DTV card. This to me, looks more or less like the TV station packet stream has been put in a file, without re-encoding. The total bitrate of all streams staying within the 8VSB bounds. This would amount to 7 to 8GB per hour. ... WM/WMRVExpirationSpan: 9223372036854775807 WM/WMRVInBandRatingSystem: 255 WM/WMRVInBandRatingLevel: 255 WM/WMRVInBandRatingAttributes: 0 WM/WMRVWatched : false WM/MediaThumbWidth: 352 WM/MediaThumbHeight: 198 WM/MediaThumbStride: 1056 WM/MediaThumbRet: 0 WM/MediaThumbRatingSystem: 255 WM/MediaThumbRatingLevel: 255 WM/MediaThumbRatingAttributes: 0 WM/MediaThumbAspectRatioX: 16 WM/MediaThumbAspectRatioY: 9 WM/MediaThumbTimeStamp: 4643469047485227351 Duration: 00:37:57.13, start: 1.405622, bitrate: 18047 kb/s Stream #0:0[0x2f](eng): Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, 5.1(side), fltp, 384 kb/s Stream #0:1[0x30](enm): Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 192 kb/s (visual impaired) Stream #0:2[0x31](eng): Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 192 kb/s Stream #0:3[0x32]: Video: mpeg2video, yuv420p(tv), 704x480, 16999 kb/s, 29.97 fps, 29.97 tbr, 10000k tbn, 59.94 tbc --- video Stream #0:4[0x33]: Subtitle: eia_608 Stream #0:5[0xffffffff]: Video: mjpeg, yuvj420p(pc, bt470bg/unknown/unknown), 200x113 [SAR 96:96 DAR 200:113], 90k tbr, 90k tbn, 90k tbc Metadata: title : TV Thumbnail No codec could be found with id 1664495672 You'll notice the bitrate of 18047 (goodput) stays with the transport 19390 limit. I don't think there is any monkey business going on here at all! And note that, if I change channels, there is a *different* stream lineup. WMC is *not* defining the mix of streams. It's taking the raw feed from the MPEG transport stream and dumping it right into the file. This is another local channel. There is one fewer audio stream here, so the stream numbers end up different. The thumbnail and subtitle streams have switched places. Duration: 01:04:56.91, start: 1.447051, bitrate: 16153 kb/s Stream #0:0[0xc](eng): Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, 5.1(side), fltp, 384 kb/s Stream #0:1[0xd](enm): Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 192 kb/s (hearing impaired) Stream #0:2[0xe]: Video: mpeg2video, yuv420p(tv), 704x480, max. 24000 kb/s, 29.97 fps, 29.97 tbr, 10000k tbn, 59.94 tbc Stream #0:3[0xffffffff]: Video: mjpeg, yuvj420p(pc, bt470bg/unknown/unknown), 200x113 [SAR 96:96 DAR 200:113], 90k tbr, 90k tbn, 90k tbc Metadata: title : TV Thumbnail Stream #0:4[0xf]: Subtitle: eia_608 No codec could be found with id 1664495672 ******* If you're seeing artifacts, your recording is damaged. What happens to seek/skip on damaged content ? Hmmm. Can you "fix" damaged content by re-encoding ? I'm not convinced. And there is lots of damaged content out there. Download some Microsoft BUILD video, and note how many errors the playback sees. Lots of content is damaged, before you even get it. I'm amazed at the DTV card I bought, compared to the STB I've used previously. I don't know what the techie difference is, but this card is a beast in terms of it's ability to pull a flawless stream out of the pixel salad my STB (Zinwell) recovers. And right now, they're running off a 1:2 splitter, using exactly the same OTA signal. And the theory says it only takes 2dB of process gain, to move from "flaky" to "flawless". The waterfall is very sharp, and not at all like analog TV was. The nice thing about analog, is you can be so far out in fringe reception, the picture loses sync and is snow, but you can still hear sound. (That's how we used to get the news at the cottage.) DTV won't do that. It would give a blue screen and "Loss of Signal". Paul |
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Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files
On 9/25/2017 7:34 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 02:38:06 -0700, mike wrote: On 9/24/2017 6:37 AM, NY wrote: "mike" wrote in message news .wtv files seem to have fewer motion artifacts than alternative compressed formats. I'd have though that all off-air recordings, in DVR-MS, WTV and TS formats, would be identical apart from the wrapper around the data. So I'd have expected the same degree of motion and JPEG compression artefacts. I think the point is that .wtv files aren't compressed. That's why they're so huge. The off-air data just gets shoved onto the drive. If you use some other storage format, it takes a lot of horsepower to get the video onto the hard drive...and back off again. I can record 4 channels and play a .wtv recording simultaneously with a 2.8GHZ dual core pentium. Virtually all the horsepower is consumed by rendering the video. The reduction in artifacts is due to the lack of compression. I think the limit is the disk drive bandwidth. When the system is busy, I sometimes see major pixellation on a scene change, but it recovers quickly and the frame skip is pretty effective. Only complaint I have is that I messed something up and can't seamlessly skip forward any more. Have you tried another player, something other than VLC and WMP? I've tried VLC a few times over the years and it has always been prone to crashes, so my preferred player is MPC-HC. Here's a comparison of VLC versus MPC-HC, one of many: https://www.techhive.com/article/2892383/which-is-the-better-free-video-player-mpc-hc-176-vs-vlc-22.html The latest release of MPC-HC might be the last, but I'll use it until it no longer works. https://mpc-hc.org/2017/07/16/1.7.13...-and-farewell/ Get MPC-HC he https://mpc-hc.org/downloads/ from the review: This was a tough call. Both players play normal speed and allow you to skip anywhere you want in the material. But VLC has more granular speed control; smoother slow speed playback; it stretches/compresses audio to retain the original pitch, instead of simply speeding it up or down as MPC-HC does; That's a deal-breaker. The primary reason I want VLC is to play back ..wtv files at 1.7-2x speed depending on the material. |
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Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files
On 9/25/2017 2:43 PM, Paul wrote:
mike wrote: On 9/24/2017 6:37 AM, NY wrote: "mike" wrote in message news .wtv files seem to have fewer motion artifacts than alternative compressed formats. I'd have though that all off-air recordings, in DVR-MS, WTV and TS formats, would be identical apart from the wrapper around the data. So I'd have expected the same degree of motion and JPEG compression artefacts. I think the point is that .wtv files aren't compressed. That's why they're so huge. The off-air data just gets shoved onto the drive. If you use some other storage format, it takes a lot of horsepower to get the video onto the hard drive...and back off again. I can record 4 channels and play a .wtv recording simultaneously with a 2.8GHZ dual core pentium. Virtually all the horsepower is consumed by rendering the video. The reduction in artifacts is due to the lack of compression. I think the limit is the disk drive bandwidth. When the system is busy, I sometimes see major pixellation on a scene change, but it recovers quickly and the frame skip is pretty effective. Only complaint I have is that I messed something up and can't seamlessly skip forward any more. You have a strange model of what .wtv is doing. OK, let me use more words... Additional compression by the tuner or computer is not required. The bitrates/filesizes are much greater than what I've experienced with other recording formats. This is just a paste of the teaser description from a Google search. This is what my OTA reception here would be using. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8VSB Throughput. In the 6 MHz (megahertz) channel used for broadcast ATSC, 8VSB carries a symbol rate of 10.76 megabaud, a gross bit rate of 32 Mbit/s, and a net bit rate of 19.39 Mbit/s of usable data. Using FFMPEG (ffplay), let's dump a .wtv recorded on my Hauppauge DTV card. This to me, looks more or less like the TV station packet stream has been put in a file, without re-encoding. The total bitrate of all streams staying within the 8VSB bounds. This would amount to 7 to 8GB per hour. ... WM/WMRVExpirationSpan: 9223372036854775807 WM/WMRVInBandRatingSystem: 255 WM/WMRVInBandRatingLevel: 255 WM/WMRVInBandRatingAttributes: 0 WM/WMRVWatched : false WM/MediaThumbWidth: 352 WM/MediaThumbHeight: 198 WM/MediaThumbStride: 1056 WM/MediaThumbRet: 0 WM/MediaThumbRatingSystem: 255 WM/MediaThumbRatingLevel: 255 WM/MediaThumbRatingAttributes: 0 WM/MediaThumbAspectRatioX: 16 WM/MediaThumbAspectRatioY: 9 WM/MediaThumbTimeStamp: 4643469047485227351 Duration: 00:37:57.13, start: 1.405622, bitrate: 18047 kb/s Stream #0:0[0x2f](eng): Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, 5.1(side), fltp, 384 kb/s Stream #0:1[0x30](enm): Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 192 kb/s (visual impaired) Stream #0:2[0x31](eng): Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 192 kb/s Stream #0:3[0x32]: Video: mpeg2video, yuv420p(tv), 704x480, 16999 kb/s, 29.97 fps, 29.97 tbr, 704x1080 Isn't .wtv more than twice that? 10000k tbn, 59.94 tbc --- video Stream #0:4[0x33]: Subtitle: eia_608 Stream #0:5[0xffffffff]: Video: mjpeg, yuvj420p(pc, bt470bg/unknown/unknown), 200x113 [SAR 96:96 DAR 200:113], 90k tbr, 90k tbn, 90k tbc Metadata: title : TV Thumbnail No codec could be found with id 1664495672 You'll notice the bitrate of 18047 (goodput) stays with the transport 19390 limit. I don't think there is any monkey business going on here at all! And note that, if I change channels, there is a *different* stream lineup. WMC is *not* defining the mix of streams. It's taking the raw feed from the MPEG transport stream and dumping it right into the file. This is another local channel. There is one fewer audio stream here, so the stream numbers end up different. The thumbnail and subtitle streams have switched places. Yep, that's annoying. I frequently have to choose a different audio stream when I play a different recording with VLC. Duration: 01:04:56.91, start: 1.447051, bitrate: 16153 kb/s Stream #0:0[0xc](eng): Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, 5.1(side), fltp, 384 kb/s Stream #0:1[0xd](enm): Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 192 kb/s (hearing impaired) Stream #0:2[0xe]: Video: mpeg2video, yuv420p(tv), 704x480, max. 24000 kb/s, 29.97 fps, 29.97 tbr, 10000k tbn, 59.94 tbc Stream #0:3[0xffffffff]: Video: mjpeg, yuvj420p(pc, bt470bg/unknown/unknown), 200x113 [SAR 96:96 DAR 200:113], 90k tbr, 90k tbn, 90k tbc Metadata: title : TV Thumbnail Stream #0:4[0xf]: Subtitle: eia_608 No codec could be found with id 1664495672 ******* If you're seeing artifacts, your recording is damaged. Try this experiment where no recording is involved...just streaming. The content is a football game. Watch it on a cable source. Pick a scene where the player is running and the camera is following him. Watch the BACKGROUND. Watch the same play over ATSC over-the-air TV. Compare the backgrounds. This is an extreme case, but highlights the issue. There are a huge number of pixels changing per frame. The difference is quite noticeable to me. I wouldn't call it a deal breaker. If the costs of ATSC vs Cable were reversed, I'd settle for cable TV. What happens to seek/skip on damaged content ? Hmmm. Can you "fix" damaged content by re-encoding ? I'm not convinced. And there is lots of damaged content out there. Download some Microsoft BUILD video, and note how many errors the playback sees. Lots of content is damaged, before you even get it. Maybe, but you're fixated on damage. That's not the issue. All my recordings play fine and skip forward fine via MediaCenter. Same recordings play fine on VLC, but the skip forward works perfectly sometimes and has huge lags other times. It's not entirely random. Mostly a fresh recording plays in VLC without the skip issues. After the system sleeps and records more stuff, the lag appears. But, I also have some .wtv files recorded before the rebuild They all play without the skip lag. Kinda sounds like a buffering issue. Something is funky in the new setup and I have no idea how to debug it. I'm amazed at the DTV card I bought, compared to the STB I've used previously. I don't know what the techie difference is, but this card is a beast in terms of it's ability to pull a flawless stream out of the pixel salad my STB (Zinwell) recovers. And right now, they're running off a 1:2 splitter, using exactly the same OTA signal. And the theory says it only takes 2dB of process gain, to move from "flaky" to "flawless". The waterfall is very sharp, and not at all like analog TV was. I built a 4-channel variable attenuator and adjusted the signal strength for each card. Signal amplitude was quite critical. AS tuners got better I was able to retire the attenuator. Another big problem is multipath. If you're recording multiple channels across multiple tuners with one fixed antenna direction, things get messy really fast. The nice thing about analog, is you can be so far out in fringe reception, the picture loses sync and is snow, but you can still hear sound. (That's how we used to get the news at the cottage.) DTV won't do that. It would give a blue screen and "Loss of Signal". Paul |
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Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files
Char Jackson wrote:
Have you tried another player, something other than VLC and WMP? I've tried VLC a few times over the years and it has always been prone to crashes, so my preferred player is MPC-HC. Here's a comparison of VLC versus MPC-HC, one of many: https://www.techhive.com/article/2892383/which-is-the-better-free-video-player-mpc-hc-176-vs-vlc-22.html The latest release of MPC-HC might be the last, but I'll use it until it no longer works. https://mpc-hc.org/2017/07/16/1.7.13...-and-farewell/ Get MPC-HC he https://mpc-hc.org/downloads/ VLC does not use any codecs outside of its private libraries (DLL files). It is an encapsulated player: it uses only the codecs from the files stored within its install folder. The install of VLC does not globally install the codecs (registry them) for use by any other software, including VLC. Instead VLC uses a "private codec library". As such, support of file formats is restricted to only those that VLC chose to support (or those they chose to include that were written by someone else). As such, you can install VLC and it will perform the same regarding file format support; i.e., you don't have to be concerned about what codecs got registered in the OS on the host where you happen to run VLC. MPC uses whatever codecs have been registered in the OS. It comes as part of the Klite Codec Pack. That pack installs its codecs into the global library by registering them in the OS. That means MPC and any other app (that uses the globally registered codec and which excludes VLC) can use all those codecs. The Klite Codec Pack has more codecs than does VLC and why MPC can play more formats. However, there are features missing in MPC that are available in VLC. For example, I can customize VLC's GUI as to what tools I want showing in its toolbar(s) (and where I can have 1, 2, or more toolbars). In VLC, it has a tool that allows repeating playback of media at set points that I can select - not just replay the entire video but just looping from the A and B set points that I define. Are those features available in MPC? From https://trac.mpc-hc.org/wiki/Manual, I cannot tell what MPC has for features because that page is broken. What looks intended to be links to redirect to articles or expand a section in the document do not work. I just see text. Instead of using linked text strings, they have a tiny almost invisible link hotspot at the right-end of the text. When I hover the mouse over that, it turns into an icon representing a clickable link. I click on it and nothing happens. When I look at the object's code, it is an anchor that points to itself; i.e., it doesn't do anything. I am blocking nothing on that page. Looks like they never got around to providing documentation. As for VLC getting stuck in a loop and hard to break often requiring killing it, that's because of a flaw in the codec. Users think codecs are some magic to understand the formatting in a media file. Codecs are *code*, just like VLC, MPC, or other apps are code. That's why codecs can be dangerous, like harboring malware, so installing or using them should be handled just like executing any .exe, .com, .bin, .sys, or other executable file. These same users don't realize that screensavers are *code*. If the code is flawed then unwanted behavior occurs. Looks like VLC expects the codecs in its private libs to work while MPC probably does some response check to make sure the code progresses properly instead of looping or for indefinite waits. I suspect MPC won out because the codec its uses, like those installed by Klite, are either better coded or there are more of them to cover a larger subset of all audio and video file formats. More often which is better is not by how many codecs a player will support (which could be determine by which codecs have gotten registered in the OS or which are included in a private library) but by the features of the player. Either method of providing codecs often results in covering most file formats that users will encounter. So it's the player features that mostly count. MPC-HC is penned a lightweight player which means it won't have a ton of features. VLC is a heavier weight player meaning it has more features. Of course, you could have both players and pick whichever performs the job better and has the features you want at the time. Klite installs the codecs so they're globally available, even to WMP, and its installer includes MPC (you can opt-in or opt-out). I used to opt-in an include MPC-HC in the install of Klite; however, after several years of doing so but never using MPC-HC, I decided in later updates of Klite not to bother including MPC-HC. |
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Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files
mike wrote:
Maybe, but you're fixated on damage. I narrowed it down a bit. ffmpeg -i C:\input.wtv -map 0:3 -vcodec copy D:\output.wtv vlc D:\output.wtv The ffmpeg command in that example, is used to select streams from the source WTV and copy them to the destination WTV. The "map" command selects the streams, as identified when you use ffplay ffplay C:\input.wtv # Note stream numbers... # Press control-c in Command Prompt, to quit You will need to modify the above command (add parameters to it), to "-map 0:2" for the audio stream, use "-acodec copy" to specify just copying the audio stream. I didn't test that. I was actually snipping out the video stream so I could run FFProbe on it. And your TV station stream numbers will be different than mine. My suspicion is, you'll see the audio streams at the lowest stream number, and the video one is one-higher. The above copied the single stream, at 1600 frames per second. Basically as fast as the hard drive would go. The ffmpeg operation preserves the WTV metadata, and does not re-compress the stream. It's virtually unmodified, except stuff your player will trip over, gets removed. Then go test your FF and Reverse again. Mine is smoother here. ******* This is some very quick feedback from FFprobe. This is ATSC, 30 FPS progressive I would guess, and typically the GOP is set at about half a second worth. I have some other video here (VOB), where the GOP is 12 frames. This stuff is 15 frames. The longest GOP value is around 600 (I tried that for fun once while re-encoding something). size=181380 --- I-frame? size=21520 size=26452 size=54251 size=70900 size=70901 size=70901 size=70901 GOP=15 frame cadence size=70901 size=70901 size=70901 size=70901 size=70900 size=70901 size=70901 size=177348 --- I-frame? size=23804 size=25455 GSpot information tool, the frame checker in there, thinks it is seeing more detail. The labeling FFprobe uses is a little bit suspect. It's a very peculiar result, and maybe because the video is talking-heads in a news broadcast. Movie video would have some packets with smaller sizes than that (because the frame to frame delta is quite small). Why is there a delta of 70901 bytes between frames, on "talking heads" ? Also, when it says a packet is 70900 bytes, I'm finding the end of the packet has an all zeros section of substantial size. Like the packet is being padded to maintain the data rate. And I didn't think that sort of thing was necessary. I doubt the presence of the zeros matters, because somewhere that packet has a length field, and they might well be filling zeros after the length has expired. I don't think other video I've looked at, did it that way. There were long and short packets, and they never had big zeroed sections in them. Paul |
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Random Step Forward/skip/fast forward delays win7 VLC .wtv files
On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 15:31:10 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
Char Jackson wrote: Have you tried another player, something other than VLC and WMP? I've tried VLC a few times over the years and it has always been prone to crashes, so my preferred player is MPC-HC. Here's a comparison of VLC versus MPC-HC, one of many: https://www.techhive.com/article/2892383/which-is-the-better-free-video-player-mpc-hc-176-vs-vlc-22.html The latest release of MPC-HC might be the last, but I'll use it until it no longer works. https://mpc-hc.org/2017/07/16/1.7.13...-and-farewell/ Get MPC-HC he https://mpc-hc.org/downloads/ VLC does not use any codecs outside of its private libraries snip .... MPC uses whatever codecs have been registered in the OS. snip Yes, I know, thanks. -- Char Jackson |
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