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#76
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Dell computer with no input
On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 04:02:20 -0400, pjp
wrote: In article , says... On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 23:42:05 -0400, pjp wrote: In article , rednoise9 says... On 30 Nov 2017, "Mayayana" wrote in alt.windows7.general: "NY" wrote | I've had more CD/DVD discs go bad (unreadable) on me than I have | hard discs. I'm surprised that so many people say that. I've *never* tried an old CD/DVD that I couldn't read. Last week I was backing up email to a database, going back 10 years. All the disks were fine. Me, too. I have hundreds of CDRs and DVDRs and I could probably count on one hand the number of them that have gone bad... and usually that's because of physical damaged caused by me. I'm sure I've had proportionally more hard disks go bad. I've got 1000's of cds and dvds going back more than a decade now. Everyone I've had need to "use" I've been able to read with only the occassional disk requiring being put in a second or third reader before it was properly seen. I ALWAYS verify burns. I trust them more than backup drives and/or flash media. Mind you they're also properly stored. I'm surprised to see so many people coming to the rescue of optical media. I used optical media from somewhere around 1998 to 2004, give or take a year, and back then I didn't know of anyone who didn't have a stack of coasters that they didn't know what to do with. Some people made actual drink coasters, others used the back-side of the disc as a clock face, things like that. I have memories of buying 50-pack spindles and being happy to get more than 30 good burns. So my impression of optical media is very poor, but maybe it's just a case of me getting out before the industry had matured. Even if true, there's no way I'm going back. A flash drive the size of my thumb nail can contain the equivalent of 16 4GB DVDs or 100 650MB CDRs, and I can carry the flash drive anywhere and use them anywhere. I can't say the same about optical media, even if it has somehow emerged as a stable medium in recent years. As for the media types I trust most, it's hard drives, hands down. Flash drives are a close second and optical media don't even make the list. One sure trueism is that the larger the storage medium then the more is lost when said medium fails. True, but I weigh that against the enormous inconvenience of optical media. CD-Rs are completely out of the question for data storage, I hope you'll agree, but even single layer DVD's with their ~4.5GB storage are a non-starter for me. That doesn't even hold a movie unless you forego the HD versions, which I'm not willing to do. Also, I don't have pockets big enough to hold discs. Least with optical you can often retrieve a lot of it Things must have really changed since I exited the stage. I've never, not once, heard of a case where you could retrieve part of a damaged disc. It has always been all or nothing, in my experience. where-as with flashdrives and hard disks it tends to be an all or nothing affair with limited number of attempts. I've never had a flash drive fail on me, so I guess that's something I can look forward to happening someday. When it happens, it won't matter because everything on a flash drive also lives somewhere else. (Famous last words) For hard drive longevity, the best advice I can offer is to stay away from external drives. Always mount your hard drives internally. I know that flies in the face of how a lot of folks here use their drives, so I don't push it. Of the folks who have asked me to help them replace a failed hard drive over the years, I'd say 99.7% of them have been external. No one ever says they dropped it or bumped it while it was writing or anything. It's always 'it just stopped working all by itself'. If it's internal, they can't get their hands on it and it just keeps going until it's too small to be practical. Optical usually are 4.5 Gb which is a lot less to loose than my 3 Tb drives but I trust the optical more. And here I sit, wondering what to replace my 4TB drives with: 6TB isn't enough gain to be worth it, so it has to be 8TB or 10TB, I guess. My server case only holds 15 data drives, (OS drive is mounted over an unused PCI slot and doesn't use a full bay), so I have to maximize the capacity or I run the risk of having to replace my 15-drive case with a 24-drive case. Ugh... I do burn the occssional toaster but not nearly as many as days past. Good to hear that it's less of a problem now. -- Char Jackson |
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#77
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Dell computer with no input
"Char Jackson" wrote
| I'm surprised to see so many people coming to the rescue of optical | media. I used optical media from somewhere around 1998 to 2004, give or | take a year, and back then I didn't know of anyone who didn't have a | stack of coasters that they didn't know what to do with. Your impressions are outdated by about 20 years. And apparently you don't use boot disks for anything. Maybe that explains why so many people don't like CDs/DVDs .... They got fed up back in 2004 with their 2000-ish CD writer. Today the devices are cheap, the media is cheap, the writes are fast and the result is dependable. I have disks from 2004 that I can still read. | A flash drive the size of | my thumb nail can contain the equivalent of 16 4GB DVDs or 100 650MB | CDRs, and I can carry the flash drive anywhere and use them anywhere. And you pay what for your 64 GB stick?.... $40? $50? For large-scale storage disks are not the solution. But I could write 16 DVDs for about $5. Not a bad backup option. | As for the media types I trust most, it's hard drives, hands down. Flash | drives are a close second and optical media don't even make the list. | Interesting. I'd list them in exactly the reverse order in terms of expecting them to work next time I want to get at data. |
#78
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Dell computer with no input
"Char Jackson" wrote
| True, but I weigh that against the enormous inconvenience of optical | media. CD-Rs are completely out of the question for data storage, I hope | you'll agree, but even single layer DVD's with their ~4.5GB storage are | a non-starter for me. That doesn't even hold a movie Do you want to store data or movies? 10,000 docs or 1 full length movie? Those are different uses. I easily get all of my time-sensitive backup onto a DVD. Things that don't change, like software installers, video, photos, etc, go on DVDs and a backup hard disk. You keep talking about what a tremendous hassle DVDs are, yet you haven't used a CD/DVD for 13 years! |
#79
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Dell computer with no input
"Nil" wrote
| I'm surprised that so many people say that. I've | *never* tried an old CD/DVD that I couldn't read. Last | week I was backing up email to a database, going | back 10 years. All the disks were fine. | | Me, too. I have hundreds of CDRs and DVDRs and I could probably count | on one hand the number of them that have gone bad... and usually that's | because of physical damaged caused by me. I'm sure I've had | proportionally more hard disks go bad. This got me to thinking. I decided to try my oldest USB stick. Macally 256 MB. I'm not sure how old it is. Probably 10 years. Maybe more. It doesn't show up at all. The system doesn't see it. All these years it's just been sitting on a shelf over my desk, with the cap on. That's my hesitancy about USB sticks and hard disks. Magnetic storage. I don't really understand how it works, but it seems that it has to be less durable than grooves in plastic. And maybe it's susceptible to magnetic fields? I don't know. |
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Dell computer with no input
On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 23:17:48 -0600, Char Jackson
wrote: I'm surprised to see so many people coming to the rescue of optical media. I used optical media from somewhere around 1998 to 2004, give or take a year, and back then I didn't know of anyone who didn't have a stack of coasters that they didn't know what to do with. Those were AOL CDs. I remember them well. g But I eventually threw all mine away. |
#81
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Dell computer with no input
On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 10:37:37 -0500, Wolf K wrote:
On 2017-12-01 09:29, Mayayana wrote: That's my hesitancy about USB sticks and hard disks. Magnetic storage. I don't really understand how it works, but it seems that it has to be less durable than grooves in plastic. And maybe it's susceptible to magnetic fields? I don't know. Cosmic rays? The Earth's magnetic field is strong enough to degrade magnetic storage over time. That's one reason VHS/Beta tapes become unusable. Mayayana mentioned grooves in plastic within the context of backing up data to DVD. Obviously, there are no grooves... ;-) -- Char Jackson |
#82
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Dell computer with no input
Char Jackson wrote:
On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 10:37:37 -0500, Wolf K wrote: On 2017-12-01 09:29, Mayayana wrote: That's my hesitancy about USB sticks and hard disks. Magnetic storage. I don't really understand how it works, but it seems that it has to be less durable than grooves in plastic. And maybe it's susceptible to magnetic fields? I don't know. Cosmic rays? The Earth's magnetic field is strong enough to degrade magnetic storage over time. That's one reason VHS/Beta tapes become unusable. Mayayana mentioned grooves in plastic within the context of backing up data to DVD. Obviously, there are no grooves... ;-) The spiral groove in the media, is for tracking with the laser. It allows the head to move at the correct radial rate, so that the path the head follows, follows that spiral. https://www.powerdatarecovery.com/cd...rdable-cd.html On DVDRAM discs, the pattern is concentric circles, and the media is intended for "random access", as if it was a very slow hard drive. Paul |
#83
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Dell computer with no input
On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 08:56:52 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote: On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 23:17:48 -0600, Char Jackson wrote: I'm surprised to see so many people coming to the rescue of optical media. I used optical media from somewhere around 1998 to 2004, give or take a year, and back then I didn't know of anyone who didn't have a stack of coasters that they didn't know what to do with. Those were AOL CDs. I remember them well. g But I eventually threw all mine away. AOL CDs were another topic. I had some of those, too. But in this case I just meant failed burns, which apparently are far less common now than they used to be. -- Char Jackson |
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Dell computer with no input
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#85
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Dell computer with no input
On 01 Dec 2017, Char Jackson wrote in
alt.windows7.general: I have memories of buying 50-pack spindles and being happy to get more than 30 good burns. So my impression of optical media is very poor, but maybe it's just a case of me getting out before the industry had matured. But that's two different things. I admit that it used to be problematic to get a good burn. Things could go wrong at a number of points - the media could be bad, the drive could be bad, the computer could bog down, depleting the cache, and the burn could fail. But in my experience, once you have a solid, verified-good burned disc, it's unlikely to fail later if it's stored safely. I've got lots of data CDRs and DVDRs that are still good years and decades later. Even if true, there's no way I'm going back. A flash drive the size of my thumb nail can contain the equivalent of 16 4GB DVDs or 100 650MB CDRs, and I can carry the flash drive anywhere and use them anywhere. I can't say the same about optical media, even if it has somehow emerged as a stable medium in recent years. I've had a number of flash drives and SD cards go bad on me for no apparent reason. I don't totally trust them. |
#86
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Dell computer with no input
On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 16:29:52 -0500, Nil
wrote: On 01 Dec 2017, Char Jackson wrote in alt.windows7.general: I have memories of buying 50-pack spindles and being happy to get more than 30 good burns. So my impression of optical media is very poor, but maybe it's just a case of me getting out before the industry had matured. But that's two different things. I admit that it used to be problematic to get a good burn. Things could go wrong at a number of points - the media could be bad, the drive could be bad, the computer could bog down, depleting the cache, and the burn could fail. But in my experience, once you have a solid, verified-good burned disc, it's unlikely to fail later if it's stored safely. I've got lots of data CDRs and DVDRs that are still good years and decades later. Even if true, there's no way I'm going back. A flash drive the size of my thumb nail can contain the equivalent of 16 4GB DVDs or 100 650MB CDRs, and I can carry the flash drive anywhere and use them anywhere. I can't say the same about optical media, even if it has somehow emerged as a stable medium in recent years. I've had a number of flash drives and SD cards go bad on me for no apparent reason. I don't totally trust them. This shows how each of us is shaped by our personal experiences. No right, no wrong, just different. :-) -- Char Jackson |
#87
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Dell computer with no input
On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 16:41:17 -0400, pjp
wrote: AOL disks LOL Had 100's of them at one time or another. That reminds me that my mom-in-law still uses AOL as her ISP in TO, Canada!!! I know a lady who *shares* an AOL dialup account with her Mom! Neither of them are heavy users, so conflicts are rare, but still. I've offered to help them move to a faster-than-dialup connection with a 'real ISP', but they're completely happy where they are. -- Char Jackson |
#88
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Dell computer with no input
On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 17:05:23 -0600, Char Jackson
wrote: On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 16:41:17 -0400, pjp wrote: AOL disks LOL Had 100's of them at one time or another. That reminds me that my mom-in-law still uses AOL as her ISP in TO, Canada!!! I know a lady who *shares* an AOL dialup account with her Mom! Neither of them are heavy users, so conflicts are rare, but still. I've offered to help them move to a faster-than-dialup connection with a 'real ISP', but they're completely happy where they are. I know a man who has used AOL for umpteen years. What's strange about it is that his technical knowledge and skills are generally very good. |
#89
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Dell computer with no input
On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 16:14:37 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote: On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 17:05:23 -0600, Char Jackson wrote: On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 16:41:17 -0400, pjp wrote: AOL disks LOL Had 100's of them at one time or another. That reminds me that my mom-in-law still uses AOL as her ISP in TO, Canada!!! I know a lady who *shares* an AOL dialup account with her Mom! Neither of them are heavy users, so conflicts are rare, but still. I've offered to help them move to a faster-than-dialup connection with a 'real ISP', but they're completely happy where they are. I know a man who has used AOL for umpteen years. What's strange about it is that his technical knowledge and skills are generally very good. Inertia, perhaps? I should have shopped for a new insurance company long ago, but it's easier not to. When it comes to Internet service, I can overcome that kind of inertia. -- Char Jackson |
#90
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Dell computer with no input
"Char Jackson" wrote
| Mayayana mentioned grooves in plastic within the context of backing up | data to DVD. Obviously, there are no grooves... ;-) | My understanding is that the writer cuts grooves at various depths underneath the surface as a way to record data. Is that wrong? In any case, it cuts some kind of marks in plastic. It's not just magnetic storage. |
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