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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10



 
 
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  #76  
Old March 12th 19, 05:49 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
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Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/10/19 7:17 AM, Mayayana wrote:
Now you say the only reason WINE is still half-assed
after 20+ years is because of politics. I don't believe that.
I tried to work with the WINE people. They were completely
unwilling to cooperate with Windows developers and come
up with an API or tools we could use to target Linux. They
said they wanted to support my software but all they really
wanted was Windows bug reporters to give their interns
some practice. And they couldn't be bothered with docs.
The WINE people could have started a Windows API and
docs 20 years ago, so that Windows programmers could
design for WINE. Then gobs of Windows software could
have been running beautifully under WINE years ago. And
we could test/fix our own bugs. But they refuse to take
such a sensible approach. Instead they want to be like
teenage hackers, finding hacks to make Windows software
work, one function at a time.


Not politics. Economics. Code Weavers makes their living
off of consulting services. They don't give anything
away for free. My experience with them is very negative.
You find a bug, even in their documentation (I found some
really bad ones in their installation instructions), they
start name calling and on and on and so forth.

Wine Staging is finally fixing things.

If you like way Windows does things, stick with Windows.
The P is PC stands for Personal.
Ads
  #77  
Old March 12th 19, 05:55 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
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Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/10/19 1:10 PM, Mike wrote:
you can fly before your buy.

That'sÂ*aÂ*myth.


If you install from the Live USB's installer, you get the same
exact thing as was on the Live stick. Everything that
worked with the stick will work installed.

There is only one exception I have come across. RHEL
does not work natively with C236 chipsets, but will
work with the Live USB because it is SLOWER and
the problem is a timing issue. And RHEL won't fix
unless you pay them to.

  #78  
Old March 12th 19, 06:07 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
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Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/10/19 11:50 AM, Andr-o-Mat wrote:
Disagreed. KDE is generally butt ugly.


Butt Ugly is a good description. It works though.

I don't care for it myself, but I do love some of the
apps written for it: K3B (ha disk check after write),
Krusade (ugly as all hell but extremely useful), KLpgp,
KPatience (must paly card!).


  #79  
Old March 12th 19, 06:15 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
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Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/10/19 1:10 PM, Mike wrote:
ExperimentÂ*two:
GiveÂ*twoÂ*peopleÂ*computersÂ*newÂ*inÂ*theÂ*boxÂ*a ndÂ*internetÂ*connections.
LockÂ*'emÂ*inÂ*separateÂ*rooms.
TellÂ*'emÂ*toÂ*writeÂ*aÂ*shortÂ*memo,Â*attachÂ*aÂ* pictureÂ*andÂ*emailÂ*itÂ*toÂ*you
andÂ*you'llÂ*comeÂ*openÂ*theÂ*door.
TellÂ*personÂ*twoÂ*thatÂ*heÂ*willÂ*haveÂ*toÂ*useÂ* linuxÂ*toÂ*doÂ*it.
LeaveÂ*andÂ*waitÂ*forÂ*theÂ*emails.Â*Â*Don'tÂ*forg etÂ*toÂ*notifyÂ*next
ofÂ*kinÂ*andÂ*callÂ*hazmatÂ*forÂ*theÂ*secondÂ*guy.


I get paid all the time to set up Windows computers for customers
so they can use them. Without me they are completely lost.

So lets redo your test with a good consultant setting up
the computers for them:

Install system-config-printer, Firefox, Libreoffice, Thunderbird,
Brave on both computers first with desktop icon. Then repeat
the test. Tell them to set up their eMail in Thunderbird, write a
letter, set up a printer, look something up on Google.

Hmmm. Linux is 40% faster, so Linux would win.

  #80  
Old March 12th 19, 06:20 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
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Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/10/19 1:10 PM, Mike wrote:
Yep.Â*Â*YouÂ*mustÂ*beÂ*rememberingÂ*yearsÂ*agoÂ*wh enÂ*their
GUI'sÂ*wereÂ*nasty.Â*Â*LinuxÂ*isÂ*faster,Â*farÂ*mo reÂ*stable,
technologically superior,


I forgot the virus problem in Windows.


TechnicalÂ*superiorityÂ*isÂ*overrated.


Ha. Linux hardly ever blue screens, freeze, goes to s***
after running for 3 days.

Linux has file system journalling that actually works and will
mask off bad memory for those that are too cheap to run
ECC memory.

Ever look at the statistics of Samba versus Windows file
servers? Samba is twice a fast and can handle four times
as many users.

I recover corrupted files from Windows running NTFS all the
time with NTFS-3G.

Not to be too blunt, but technically speaking, Windows is s***.
This is what happens when the marketing department runs a company.
Fortunately, there are was to cope with Windows if you are stuck
having to run it for lack of Linux apps



  #81  
Old March 12th 19, 06:22 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
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Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/10/19 4:59 AM, Big Al wrote:
On 3/10/19 1:24 AM, T wrote:
GoÂ*getÂ*yourselfÂ*someÂ*LiveÂ*USB'sÂ*ofÂ*KDE,Â*gn ome,Â*Xfce,Â*MateÂ*and
youÂ*willÂ*seeÂ*whatÂ*IÂ*mean.Â*Â*BeautifulÂ*deskt ops.

And Cinnamon.


https://spins.fedoraproject.org/
https://spins.fedoraproject.org/en/cinnamon/

I am downloading its spin as I write this.

Thank you!

  #82  
Old March 12th 19, 06:47 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

T wrote:
On 3/10/19 1:10 PM, Mike wrote:
you can fly before your buy.

That's a myth.


If you install from the Live USB's installer, you get the same
exact thing as was on the Live stick. Everything that
worked with the stick will work installed.

There is only one exception I have come across. RHEL
does not work natively with C236 chipsets, but will
work with the Live USB because it is SLOWER and
the problem is a timing issue. And RHEL won't fix
unless you pay them to.


Well, that's not true.

It's true if the Live USB has a persistent store loaded
somewhere on the system, to store state information between
sessions.

It's not true, if you're just using a DVD with "distro X" on it.
A DVD by itself, doesn't have a persistent store on it.

Anything which involves DKMS, is going to require a reboot
(to pick up the modified kernel), and in the process, the
state information is lost.

This means you can't install the NVidia graphics driver in
Linux, unless you have a persistent store. Similarly, you
can't install VirtualBox or VMWare Player, as both of
those sport materials which are installed via DKMS.

For some value of "trivial evaluation", sure, you can
see what "ls" does, what "mv" does, run the calculator
maybe. But the fullest extent of possibilities, is going
to need a persistent store. And when you install the
OS, that's the "ultimate persistent store".

Paul
  #83  
Old March 12th 19, 07:39 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/11/19 10:47 PM, Paul wrote:
T wrote:
On 3/10/19 1:10 PM, Mike wrote:
you can fly before your buy.
That's a myth.


If you install from the Live USB's installer, you get the same
exact thing as was on the Live stick.Â* Everything that
worked with the stick will work installed.

There is only one exception I have come across.Â* RHEL
does not work natively with C236 chipsets, but will
work with the Live USB because it is SLOWER and
the problem is a timing issue.Â* And RHEL won't fix
unless you pay them to.


Well, that's not true.

It's true if the Live USB has a persistent store loaded
somewhere on the system, to store state information between
sessions.

It's not true, if you're just using a DVD with "distro X" on it.
A DVD by itself, doesn't have a persistent store on it.

Anything which involves DKMS, is going to require a reboot
(to pick up the modified kernel), and in the process, the
state information is lost.

This means you can't install the NVidia graphics driver in
Linux, unless you have a persistent store. Similarly, you
can't install VirtualBox or VMWare Player, as both of
those sport materials which are installed via DKMS.

For some value of "trivial evaluation", sure, you can
see what "ls" does, what "mv" does, run the calculator
maybe. But the fullest extent of possibilities, is going
to need a persistent store. And when you install the
OS, that's the "ultimate persistent store".

Â*Â* Paul


Paul,

I am constantly installing from Live USB. The desktop
may be a bit different looking, but all the programs on the
Live are also installed on your hard dive. It is my
preferred way of installing.

So, I have no idea what you are not seeing. All can say
is that Live USB's are suppose to be demonstrations so you
an hands on play with them.

And as far as 'persistent store" store goes, these programs
are added when the iso is spun, they are not in persistence.

Speaking of persistence, I hate persistence. It is use
and lose. I just make up my own flash drive with what
I want on it. I make the file system ext4, so i can copy to
and from as I please.

-T

  #84  
Old March 12th 19, 07:44 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
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Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/10/19 11:53 AM, Andr-o-Mat wrote:
On 2019-03-10 7:59 a.m., Big Al wrote:
On 3/10/19 1:24 AM, T wrote:
GoÂ*getÂ*yourselfÂ*someÂ*LiveÂ*USB'sÂ*ofÂ*KDE,Â*gn ome,Â*Xfce,Â*MateÂ*and
youÂ*willÂ*seeÂ*whatÂ*IÂ*mean.Â*Â*BeautifulÂ*deskt ops.

And Cinnamon.


Cinnamon is a perfect compromise between functionality and familiarity.


I am running it in qemu-KVM at the moment. It is whining about my
video settings and the desktop crashed trying to install a printer.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Is sure does look easy to use though!

  #85  
Old March 12th 19, 07:47 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
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Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/11/19 11:44 PM, T wrote:
andÂ*theÂ*desktopÂ*crashedÂ*tryingÂ*toÂ*installÂ*a Â*printer.


And the auto recovery worked perfectly -- sweet!

  #86  
Old March 12th 19, 07:58 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
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Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/11/19 11:47 PM, T wrote:
On 3/11/19 11:44 PM, T wrote:
andÂ*theÂ*desktopÂ*crashedÂ*tryingÂ*toÂ*installÂ*a Â*printer.


And the auto recovery worked perfectly -- sweet!


Second crash trying to attach to a network printer did not
fully recover. Cinnamon does look pretty, but it
is too unstable to let loose on the general public.
I am sure it will get better. Linux is all about
Kaisen (constant improvement). I will check back
in a year.

  #87  
Old March 12th 19, 09:28 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

T wrote:
On 3/11/19 10:47 PM, Paul wrote:
T wrote:
On 3/10/19 1:10 PM, Mike wrote:
you can fly before your buy.
That's a myth.

If you install from the Live USB's installer, you get the same
exact thing as was on the Live stick. Everything that
worked with the stick will work installed.

There is only one exception I have come across. RHEL
does not work natively with C236 chipsets, but will
work with the Live USB because it is SLOWER and
the problem is a timing issue. And RHEL won't fix
unless you pay them to.


Well, that's not true.

It's true if the Live USB has a persistent store loaded
somewhere on the system, to store state information between
sessions.

It's not true, if you're just using a DVD with "distro X" on it.
A DVD by itself, doesn't have a persistent store on it.

Anything which involves DKMS, is going to require a reboot
(to pick up the modified kernel), and in the process, the
state information is lost.

This means you can't install the NVidia graphics driver in
Linux, unless you have a persistent store. Similarly, you
can't install VirtualBox or VMWare Player, as both of
those sport materials which are installed via DKMS.

For some value of "trivial evaluation", sure, you can
see what "ls" does, what "mv" does, run the calculator
maybe. But the fullest extent of possibilities, is going
to need a persistent store. And when you install the
OS, that's the "ultimate persistent store".

Paul


Paul,

I am constantly installing from Live USB. The desktop
may be a bit different looking, but all the programs on the
Live are also installed on your hard dive. It is my
preferred way of installing.

So, I have no idea what you are not seeing. All can say
is that Live USB's are suppose to be demonstrations so you
an hands on play with them.

And as far as 'persistent store" store goes, these programs
are added when the iso is spun, they are not in persistence.

Speaking of persistence, I hate persistence. It is use
and lose. I just make up my own flash drive with what
I want on it. I make the file system ext4, so i can copy to
and from as I please.

-T


Mike was referring to "trial" of a LiveDVD without installation.

You can't trial every possible thing from a LiveDVD, unless
you set up a persistent store. This is typically done on
LiveDVDs transferred to USB sticks, where a 4GB persistence
file ("casper-rw") is added to the USB key, so that more
extensive procedures can be tried. Such as installing the
NVidia graphics driver, trying VirtualBox or VMPlayer.

Not everyone has scratch drives for installing Linux for testing.
I have a ton of drives, and you can never really have enough
drives for this sort of testing. For example, right now, when
I'm finished with the 500GB HDD in the Test Machine, I have
to restore from backup, to put the previous experiment back
on there.

For people who don't make a hobby out of buying hard
drives, they're not going to have the materials
for "completely safe" home experiments. For example,
a person who evaluated Debian for the first time,
Debian takes no prisoners, and due to some bad
experiences here, I only recommend a scratch HDD
for Debian. Don't use your Windows drive. I could
have sworn I selected the correct option, and
it wiped my drive. No other distros had quite
as bad table manners. When the other ones say
"Do something else", the custom option actually worked
properly.

I *never* allow a distro to use a default install
method. I always select custom. For a first time user,
that takes a bit of getting used to, but it's really
not that much different than selecting "custom" in a
Windows install. It has about the same number of surprises.
The surprise I don't like, is having other partitions
deleted. And Debian has done that twice here. And the
second time, I was *real careful* (bomb squad techniques)
and it still trashed the drive.

Paul
  #88  
Old March 12th 19, 09:31 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

T wrote:
On 3/11/19 11:47 PM, T wrote:
On 3/11/19 11:44 PM, T wrote:
and the desktop crashed trying to install a printer.


And the auto recovery worked perfectly -- sweet!


Second crash trying to attach to a network printer did not
fully recover. Cinnamon does look pretty, but it
is too unstable to let loose on the general public.
I am sure it will get better. Linux is all about
Kaisen (constant improvement). I will check back
in a year.


And you're not the least bit curious as to why ???

If you're using EXT4, it's journaled. The file system
should survive with just as much zeal as NTFS on
Windows does.

Paul
  #89  
Old March 12th 19, 09:48 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
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Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/19 1:28 AM, Paul wrote:
MikeÂ*wasÂ*referringÂ*toÂ*"trial"Â*ofÂ*aÂ*LiveDVDÂ *withoutÂ*installation.

YouÂ*can'tÂ*trialÂ*everyÂ*possibleÂ*thingÂ*fromÂ*a Â*LiveDVD,Â*unless
youÂ*setÂ*upÂ*aÂ*persistentÂ*store.


True and an art form in its own.

ThisÂ*isÂ*typicallyÂ*doneÂ*on
LiveDVDsÂ*transferredÂ*toÂ*USBÂ*sticks,Â*whereÂ*a *4GBÂ*persistence
fileÂ*("casper-rw")Â*isÂ*addedÂ*toÂ*theÂ*USBÂ*key,Â*soÂ*thatÂ*mor e
extensiveÂ*proceduresÂ*canÂ*beÂ*tried.Â*SuchÂ*asÂ* installingÂ*the
NVidiaÂ*graphicsÂ*driver,Â*tryingÂ*VirtualBoxÂ*or *VMPlayer.

NotÂ*everyoneÂ*hasÂ*scratchÂ*drivesÂ*forÂ*installi ngÂ*LinuxÂ*forÂ*testing.
IÂ*haveÂ*aÂ*tonÂ*ofÂ*drives,Â*andÂ*youÂ*canÂ*never Â*reallyÂ*haveÂ*enough
drivesÂ*forÂ*thisÂ*sortÂ*ofÂ*testing.Â*ForÂ*exampl e,Â*rightÂ*now,Â*when
I'mÂ*finishedÂ*withÂ*theÂ*500GBÂ*HDDÂ*inÂ*theÂ*Tes tÂ*Machine,Â*IÂ*have
toÂ*restoreÂ*fromÂ*backup,Â*toÂ*putÂ*theÂ*previous Â*experimentÂ*back
onÂ*there.


But a lot of us have Flash drives kicking around. And you can
install to them and test whatever you want.

The best flash drive for this I have found are from Samsung.
No troubles with massive small file transfers. Patriot
are the worst.

  #90  
Old March 12th 19, 09:49 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
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Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/19 1:31 AM, Paul wrote:
T wrote:
On 3/11/19 11:47 PM, T wrote:
On 3/11/19 11:44 PM, T wrote:
and the desktop crashed trying to install a printer.

And the auto recovery worked perfectly -- sweet!


Second crash trying to attach to a network printer did not
fully recover.Â* Cinnamon does look pretty, but it
is too unstable to let loose on the general public.
I am sure it will get better.Â* Linux is all about
Kaisen (constant improvement).Â*Â* I will check back
in a year.


And you're not the least bit curious as to why ???

If you're using EXT4, it's journaled. The file system
should survive with just as much zeal as NTFS on
Windows does.

Â*Â* Paul


I have not got the time to figure it out. The Live ISO's
work fine in qemu-kvm.

I highly double the crashes had anything to do with ext4.

 




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