Window 8.1 tablets

Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 11:54:56 +0100, mechanic
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 07:45:03 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:

Alas, I *do* agree with that last statement. I think Microsoft has
done a very poor job of making it clear that Windows 8 has two
interfaces and you can use either or both.

No I think they've made it clear that you can either login to the
Desktop, or to a customisable Start screen. Why is that so hard to
understand?



Why? Because it's not true. Look at the *millions* of Windows 8 users
who use the Metro/Modern interface all the time, and don't even
realize they have a choice.


There are probably quite a few of those yet that same population is more
than likely skewed toward a majority that don't care....they just use it
and are as productive as those who are aware of having a choice.

--
....winston
msft mvp consumer apps

On 10/19/2014 12:31 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 8:36 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 10/19/2014 7:58 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Bob Henson wrote:
On 18/10/2014 8:57 PM, Neil wrote:
On 10/18/2014 10:02 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 18/10/2014 2:46 PM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2014-10-18 5:07 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:

snip

People who use their computers for actual work are the ones not
upgrading to the newest computer release and the newest operating
system.

You're disqualifying the "actual work" that people are doing on phones an
tablets based on what empirical information??? Some people have been
doing
"real work" on tablets for decades, and from what I see, that trend is
upward.

Don't we have to define what "actual work"/"real work" is?

If what you are doing is simply posting family photos to Facebook, or
something like that, it would qualify as "real work" to you, and tablets
and phones are just fine. But, if the work you're doing is War and
Peace Part 2, or designing the next passenger airliner, that "real work"
isn't going to be done a tablet or smart phone.

I guess we just have to love the "Straw Man Extremes" to support a lost
cause. 8-^

I consider "actual/real work" that for which one is being compensated.
Such work has been done on tablets for decades and on phones at least
since the Blackberry.

--
best regards,

Neil

On 10/19/14 11:17 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 08:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets
on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop
PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same.

I think this is exactly what you have with OS X and iOS. 2 different
operating systems, but visually they closer and closer with each new
version, and better integration.

It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer
as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem
before, so why is it suddenly a problem now?

The difference may be in the amount of difficulty in sharing data
between the two OSes. Plus what your goal is with everything.

In the Apple world, if you want to enter something into the app on the
computer, and have it show up on the family's iPhone, it's a piece of
cake. For example, the wife is grocery shopping, and the list is on the
phone and the computer. You're at home, remember a couple items that
need to be added to the list. Type them in on the computer, and in a
few seconds, the list on the phone is updated.

Is that possible on what you have?


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 25.0
Thunderbird 24.6.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On 10/19/14 11:33 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 11:19:02 -0400, Wolf K
wrote:

[...]
Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets
on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop
PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same.
[...]

Agreed, but they should look and function the same, allowing for
differences such as screen size/orientation, touch, etc.

Why?!! Who says so? What on earth is wrong with different gadgets
looking like what they are and behaving differently because they are
different? The controls on my TV don't look like the ones on my
washing machine, and none of them look like the controls on the
microwave, but it's never been a problem, and I can't imagine how any
attempt to harmonise them would improve anything.

If all the Window's systems look the same, and Apple systems look the
same, it's simply easier to use. Everything looks and works the same,
and you don't have to look for the same things in different places. You
don't have to have the same OSes everywhere. And a Mac doesn't have to
look like Windows.

It's the KISS principle, which is what we should do with computers, but
haven't been. It's like the push back I got in an open source mailing
list. I and some others wanted to program to save the work in a file
format that was not native. Of course that would save the time and
effort to save in the native format, then open another application or
write a batch file to convert to the format desired. That type of
mundane work is what computers excel at, and it should be available.


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 25.0
Thunderbird 24.6.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On 17/10/2014 23:51, Neil wrote:
I noticed that there are a number of new tablets from 7-10" starting
below $100US. Looks like the Metro UI gamble may start to make some
money for MS?


you guys are really lucky to get cheap Microsoft OS loaded tablets. We
have to pay premium price for these products. For example the new Tesco
hudl2 costs £129 (convert this to USD).

http://www.tesco.com/direct/hudl2-8-wi-fi-tablet/454-7907.prd?sc_cmp=tp1_ppc_g_+hudl%20+2_b&gclid=CMj14 6zBucECFbPJtAodR2AApw

I am sticking with DELL branded products for the time being because of
the online support they provide.

I have now accumulated 5 laptops and 1 desktop preloaded with Windows
8.1. The desktop is with 16GB ram and 2 TB HD; the laptops are with
8GB ram and 1TB HD.

Can't live without DELL and/or Microsoft. No Linux junk in the house.

On 10/18/2014 10:52 PM, philo wrote:
On 10/18/2014 08:21 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:


Unfortunately, if you left click on the MS Icon, it goes right back to
tiles...a minor annoyance for me but a complete nightmare for those who
have learned by rote.

In Windows XP if I right click on an desktop Icon I get a menu, If I
left click on it it opens the folder or program. Same difference



But in XP there is /no/ way to get to "tiles"


I don't want to see them at all , no matter what...



I use Classic Menu. In the settings not only can you choose to boot into
the desktop you can choose not to show the apps in the start menu.
We never see the Start page or the apps unless we purposely go there,
which we never do. I uninstalled them, the ones that I could, unpinned
the rest.
You can probably do the samething with any start menu restorer program.

--
Caver1

On 10/19/2014 07:53 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Caver1 wrote:
On 10/18/2014 03:57 PM, Neil wrote:
[...]
For those who want to use the same apps on their desktop, with data
in sync via a cloud server, that notion is completely useless. So,
you're betting on the Luddites, and I'm betting on the rest of the
world. ;-)


You can have your data synced in the cloud with real programs not just
apps. The younger generations that only want to use their phones or
maybe tablets don't do any real work on them.

Based on the conversation "personal cloud drives", I'd say that most
people are not prepared to sync the data from their old programs between
their various devices, even if they ran on them, which they don't. How
interesting is it that you think you know what all forms of "real work" are,
and that by definition, if one is using a phone or a tablet, they can't
possibly be doing it? Take another look at the original Blackberry user
base, and the absurdity of that notion becomes immediately obvious.


Syncing is not only between different devices it can also be between
different computers. ie home and work, laptop on the road and desktop at
home.....
I would really like to see someone use Autocad or the equivalent on a
phone or tablet and get any real work done. Maybe Media production. Good
Design work that has any complexity....

--
Caver1

On 10/19/2014 08:00 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 10/19/2014 4:46 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 18/10/2014 9:14 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 10/18/2014 10:53 AM, philo wrote:
On 10/18/2014 09:03 AM, Bob Henson wrote:




That's correct and exactly the reason I think Microsoft got it wrong.

Too many people just knows computers by rote and to even figure out how
to switch from Metro to Classic is beyond their capability.

I upgraded to 8.1 from 8.0, and it defaulted to the desktop, not Metro.
I think I read somewhere that 8.1 checks to see if you have a touch
screen. If so, it defaults to Metro. If not, it defaults to the
desktop.



You can *make* 8.1 default to the desktop, but as installed it defaults
to Metro.



True, but what I found annoying is that if one hits the wrong key
somewhere, it pops back over to Metro.

Installing a 3rd party program such as Classic Shell fixes that.

You do not need a 3rd party program to make these fixes. Most can be
done from the Properties Navigation tab on the Desktop.

The rest can be changed by right clicking on the MS Icon on the Desktop
Toolbar, and selecting Control Panel. Many are in the Appearance and
Personalization section.


How do you add back a working menu system without a third party program?


What Menu System do you want.

When you right click on the MS icon you get a complete menu of the
computer functions. In the Control Panel if you click View By in the
upper right corner and change to large/Small Icons, you have a screen
quite similar to the one in Windows XP.

No programs. Nothing on the task bar for programs unless you create it.
Yes you can click on the file manager on the taskbar, then go to
Programs/Programs(x86), then scroll down to the program folder, then
scroll down to the executable, then click on it, then close file
manager, then start using your program, everytime.

--
Caver1

On 10/19/2014 10:29 AM, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 11:54:56 +0100, mechanic
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 07:45:03 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:

Alas, I *do* agree with that last statement. I think Microsoft has
done a very poor job of making it clear that Windows 8 has two
interfaces and you can use either or both.

No I think they've made it clear that you can either login to the
Desktop, or to a customisable Start screen. Why is that so hard to
understand?



Why? Because it's not true. Look at the *millions* of Windows 8 users
who use the Metro/Modern interface all the time, and don't even
realize they have a choice.



Those apps do not have the capabilities that the programs that they
mimic have.
One good example is the mail app.

--
Caver1

On 10/19/2014 11:36 AM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2014-10-19 10:36 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
[...]
You're disqualifying the "actual work" that people are doing on phones an
tablets based on what empirical information??? Some people have been doing
"real work" on tablets for decades, and from what I see, that trend is
upward. [...]

Indeed. Yesterday I talked to a woman who uses her iPad to design
quilts. She can send the designs to the printer, or to any other device
on her home network. She can e-mail them. She can upload them to her
website, and have real-time collaboration with other people logged onto
her design page.

If that's not "real work" I don't know what is.

BTW, more and more external drives are wi-fi. That's one reason the USB
ones are being sold at low (and dropping) prices (eg, a Toshiba 2TB for
$120 Canadian).


I just got a Toshiba 3TB for $100 US.

--
Caver1

On 10/19/2014 03:17 PM, ...winston‫ wrote:
Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 11:54:56 +0100, mechanic
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 07:45:03 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:

Alas, I *do* agree with that last statement. I think Microsoft has
done a very poor job of making it clear that Windows 8 has two
interfaces and you can use either or both.

No I think they've made it clear that you can either login to the
Desktop, or to a customisable Start screen. Why is that so hard to
understand?



Why? Because it's not true. Look at the *millions* of Windows 8 users
who use the Metro/Modern interface all the time, and don't even
realize they have a choice.


There are probably quite a few of those yet that same population is more
than likely skewed toward a majority that don't care....they just use it
and are as productive as those who are aware of having a choice.


Everyone that I know that uses 8.1 for work never use the metro side.

--
Caver1

On 10/19/2014 03:33 PM, Neil wrote:
On 10/19/2014 12:31 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 8:36 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 10/19/2014 7:58 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Bob Henson wrote:
On 18/10/2014 8:57 PM, Neil wrote:
On 10/18/2014 10:02 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 18/10/2014 2:46 PM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2014-10-18 5:07 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:

snip

People who use their computers for actual work are the ones not
upgrading to the newest computer release and the newest operating
system.

You're disqualifying the "actual work" that people are doing on phones an
tablets based on what empirical information??? Some people have been
doing
"real work" on tablets for decades, and from what I see, that trend is
upward.

Don't we have to define what "actual work"/"real work" is?

If what you are doing is simply posting family photos to Facebook, or
something like that, it would qualify as "real work" to you, and tablets
and phones are just fine. But, if the work you're doing is War and
Peace Part 2, or designing the next passenger airliner, that "real work"
isn't going to be done a tablet or smart phone.

I guess we just have to love the "Straw Man Extremes" to support a lost
cause. 8-^

I consider "actual/real work" that for which one is being compensated.
Such work has been done on tablets for decades and on phones at least
since the Blackberry.


All four of my children have smartphones and tablets which they use
constantly. When they switch to work their switch to their desktops or
laptops. At work they all use desktops and not the metro side. The same
for others that I know.

--
Caver1

On 10/19/2014 03:42 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 11:17 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 08:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets
on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop
PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same.

I think this is exactly what you have with OS X and iOS. 2 different
operating systems, but visually they closer and closer with each new
version, and better integration.

It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer
as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem
before, so why is it suddenly a problem now?

The difference may be in the amount of difficulty in sharing data
between the two OSes. Plus what your goal is with everything.

In the Apple world, if you want to enter something into the app on the
computer, and have it show up on the family's iPhone, it's a piece of
cake. For example, the wife is grocery shopping, and the list is on the
phone and the computer. You're at home, remember a couple items that
need to be added to the list. Type them in on the computer, and in a
few seconds, the list on the phone is updated.

Is that possible on what you have?



It is in Linux.

--
Caver1

On 10/19/2014 4:47 PM, Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 03:33 PM, Neil wrote:
On 10/19/2014 12:31 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 8:36 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 10/19/2014 7:58 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Bob Henson wrote:
On 18/10/2014 8:57 PM, Neil wrote:
On 10/18/2014 10:02 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 18/10/2014 2:46 PM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2014-10-18 5:07 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:

snip

People who use their computers for actual work are the ones not
upgrading to the newest computer release and the newest operating
system.

You're disqualifying the "actual work" that people are doing on
phones an
tablets based on what empirical information??? Some people have been
doing
"real work" on tablets for decades, and from what I see, that trend is
upward.

Don't we have to define what "actual work"/"real work" is?

If what you are doing is simply posting family photos to Facebook, or
something like that, it would qualify as "real work" to you, and tablets
and phones are just fine. But, if the work you're doing is War and
Peace Part 2, or designing the next passenger airliner, that "real work"
isn't going to be done a tablet or smart phone.

I guess we just have to love the "Straw Man Extremes" to support a lost
cause. 8-^

I consider "actual/real work" that for which one is being compensated.
Such work has been done on tablets for decades and on phones at least
since the Blackberry.


All four of my children have smartphones and tablets which they use
constantly. When they switch to work their switch to their desktops or
laptops. At work they all use desktops and not the metro side. The same
for others that I know.

So... are you trying to claim that people *don't* use tablets and smart
phones for business and "actual work"? If not, please tell me... what
was the point of your comment?

--
best regards,

Neil

On 10/19/2014 11:20 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 19/10/2014 1:06 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
That is the biggest drawback to Windows 8.1. Once you open a Metro
program in in nearly impossible to close that program. YES MS brought
the Upper X to close the Window, but that does not close the program.
Working with a mouse exclusively the only option is to kill it in the
Task Manager. If you hit the Windows Key on the key board it will get
you out of most Metro programs.


Doesn't ALT-F4 close them?

The concept of "closed" for Metro apps is not the same as it is for
Desktop apps.

Like Android and iOS, Metro apps are "stopped" by the user, meaning that
they don't consume CPU time and other resources, but they're still in
memory until that memory is needed by some other app, and that's managed
by the system, not the user. There are reasons why some people think
this is a good thing, but on that matter I'm an agnostic until it
creates some problem, and that will largely depend on how well
"sandboxed" they are. IOW, the Metro/Modern UI is not just another
instance of the desktop, so it isn't reasonable to think it should
function as though it is.

--
best regards,

Neil