Delay on Shutdown

On 09/02/2018 23:20, Paul wrote:
David B. wrote:
On 07/02/2018 08:30, Pinnerite wrote:
A recent change in my Win-10 behaviour is that when attempting to
shutdown,
this message appears on the screen 'Error Recovery Guide
This app is preventing shutdown'

Is there a cure?

Have you tried THIS facility?

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...ed/adk-install


And what was your opinion of it ?

Â*Â* Paul

Hi Paul

I've not used it myself but came across it looking for a solution to
help my nephew. He called me on Thursday advising that his desktop HP
Pavillion, only about 2 years old and running Windows 10, would not
shutdown normally any more.

I suspect that this may have been caused by a Microsoft Update and
suggested that he simply 'force' shutdowns if he REALLY wanted to turn
off his computer before another update corrected matters (probably!).

Any guidance from you on this situation will be welcomed.

--
David B.

David B. wrote:
On 09/02/2018 23:20, Paul wrote:
David B. wrote:
On 07/02/2018 08:30, Pinnerite wrote:
A recent change in my Win-10 behaviour is that when attempting to
shutdown,
this message appears on the screen 'Error Recovery Guide
This app is preventing shutdown'

Is there a cure?

Have you tried THIS facility?

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...ed/adk-install



And what was your opinion of it ?

Paul

Hi Paul

I've not used it myself but came across it looking for a solution to
help my nephew. He called me on Thursday advising that his desktop HP
Pavillion, only about 2 years old and running Windows 10, would not
shutdown normally any more.

I suspect that this may have been caused by a Microsoft Update and
suggested that he simply 'force' shutdowns if he REALLY wanted to turn
off his computer before another update corrected matters (probably!).

Any guidance from you on this situation will be welcomed.


At its max, that's a 4GB download.

I know, because I got a copy a few days ago, so I could use
it on a machine while the machine was disconnected from
the Internet. I carried it over on a USB stick.

At one time, it was a 7GB download. And the download
time was listed as 24 hours because somebody at Microsoft
thought it would be funny to throttle the download. So I
had to use a multi-threaded downloader to get it in only
four hours or so. The current version doesn't do that.

The first step in problem resolution like that, is reviewing
what software is on the machine, what hacks have been applied,
for some explanation for why it's happening.

As an example, uphclean from the Win2K/WinXP era has been
rolled right into the OS design, so open registry hives
will no longer delay Windows shutdowns. But that doesn't
stop services ignoring shutdown requests or the like
from screwing things up. Neither would it help with
PendMoves which happen at shutdown time (the parts of
Windows Updates that run as the OS is shutting down,
things done at that time because there won't be
any conflicts with running software).

You should be able to see a good deal of that activity,
as long as you find a tutorial page to go with the
download. The download by itself isn't going to
help someone, as they need a crafted command to
run it. And using something like WPR isn't the
answer either, as it'll waste 2 hours of your
time and do half a dozen reboots, all for nothing.
There are tools in the kit that are pure showboating,
and not getting to the heart of the matter.

The tools also don't solve the problem of identifying
svchosts. A number of svchosts only have one service inside
them, but if you're sitting in the graphing tool later,
all you'll see is SVCHOST pid_number and you won't
be given any clue which one it is. PIDs are randomly
assigned at boot, so no two runs of the OS uses the
same assignments. This is the same behavior you'd
see on Linux, Unix, or MacOSX, pids are randomly
assigned on each run, as a function of the timing
and startup when the OS boots. It's when a process
has a "real name" that we can understand what they do.

Paul

On 10/02/2018 11:19, Paul wrote:
David B. wrote:
On 09/02/2018 23:20, Paul wrote:
David B. wrote:
On 07/02/2018 08:30, Pinnerite wrote:
A recent change in my Win-10 behaviour is that when attempting to
shutdown,
this message appears on the screen 'Error Recovery Guide
This app is preventing shutdown'

Is there a cure?

Have you tried THIS facility?

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...ed/adk-install



And what was your opinion of it ?

Â*Â*Â* Paul

Hi Paul

I've not used it myself but came across it looking for a solution to
help my nephew. He called me on Thursday advising that his desktop HP
Pavillion, only about 2 years old and running Windows 10, would not
shutdown normally any more.

I suspect that this may have been caused by a Microsoft Update and
suggested that he simply 'force' shutdowns if he REALLY wanted to turn
off his computer before another update corrected matters (probably!).

Any guidance from you on this situation will be welcomed.


At its max, that's a 4GB download.

I know, because I got a copy a few days ago, so I could use
it on a machine while the machine was disconnected from
the Internet. I carried it over on a USB stick.

At one time, it was a 7GB download. And the download
time was listed as 24 hours because somebody at Microsoft
thought it would be funny to throttle the download. So I
had to use a multi-threaded downloader to get it in only
four hours or so. The current version doesn't do that.

The first step in problem resolution like that, is reviewing
what software is on the machine, what hacks have been applied,
for some explanation for why it's happening.

As an example, uphclean from the Win2K/WinXP era has been
rolled right into the OS design, so open registry hives
will no longer delay Windows shutdowns. But that doesn't
stop services ignoring shutdown requests or the like
from screwing things up. Neither would it help with
PendMoves which happen at shutdown time (the parts of
Windows Updates that run as the OS is shutting down,
things done at that time because there won't be
any conflicts with running software).

You should be able to see a good deal of that activity,
as long as you find a tutorial page to go with the
download. The download by itself isn't going to
help someone, as they need a crafted command to
run it. And using something like WPR isn't the
answer either, as it'll waste 2 hours of your
time and do half a dozen reboots, all for nothing.
There are tools in the kit that are pure showboating,
and not getting to the heart of the matter.

The tools also don't solve the problem of identifying
svchosts. A number of svchosts only have one service inside
them, but if you're sitting in the graphing tool later,
all you'll see is SVCHOST pid_number and you won't
be given any clue which one it is. PIDs are randomly
assigned at boot, so no two runs of the OS uses the
same assignments. This is the same behavior you'd
see on Linux, Unix, or MacOSX, pids are randomly
assigned on each run, as a function of the timing
and startup when the OS boots. It's when a process
has a "real name" that we can understand what they do.

Â*Â* Paul

Thank you so much for responding, Paul.

I suspect my nephew is unlikely to be able to master the procedure - he
has little patience!!!

He did, though, run an HP test yestwerday with this result:
https://imgur.com/gallery/v2Yjq

This afternoon he/we did a system restore on his machine but there has
been no improvement. Still slow to start up and won't turn off unless
the 'Power On/Off' button is pressed.

After the 'Restore' he had a McAfee icon on his desktop. He used
Control Panel to remove it. I've just noticed this online:-

http://www.thewindowsclub.com/uninst...curity-windows

Do you support what the article says?

Is there any other action you can suggest?

FWIW, whilst Dale's computer is 'ON' everything is apparently working
well. It's just the start-up and shutdown which takes a long time (it
took much longer than Windows 10 does on my laptop).

--
David B.

David B. wrote:
On 10/02/2018 11:19, Paul wrote:
David B. wrote:
On 09/02/2018 23:20, Paul wrote:
David B. wrote:
On 07/02/2018 08:30, Pinnerite wrote:
A recent change in my Win-10 behaviour is that when attempting to
shutdown,
this message appears on the screen 'Error Recovery Guide
This app is preventing shutdown'

Is there a cure?

Have you tried THIS facility?

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...ed/adk-install



And what was your opinion of it ?

Paul

Hi Paul

I've not used it myself but came across it looking for a solution to
help my nephew. He called me on Thursday advising that his desktop HP
Pavillion, only about 2 years old and running Windows 10, would not
shutdown normally any more.

I suspect that this may have been caused by a Microsoft Update and
suggested that he simply 'force' shutdowns if he REALLY wanted to
turn off his computer before another update corrected matters
(probably!).

Any guidance from you on this situation will be welcomed.


At its max, that's a 4GB download.

I know, because I got a copy a few days ago, so I could use
it on a machine while the machine was disconnected from
the Internet. I carried it over on a USB stick.

At one time, it was a 7GB download. And the download
time was listed as 24 hours because somebody at Microsoft
thought it would be funny to throttle the download. So I
had to use a multi-threaded downloader to get it in only
four hours or so. The current version doesn't do that.

The first step in problem resolution like that, is reviewing
what software is on the machine, what hacks have been applied,
for some explanation for why it's happening.

As an example, uphclean from the Win2K/WinXP era has been
rolled right into the OS design, so open registry hives
will no longer delay Windows shutdowns. But that doesn't
stop services ignoring shutdown requests or the like
from screwing things up. Neither would it help with
PendMoves which happen at shutdown time (the parts of
Windows Updates that run as the OS is shutting down,
things done at that time because there won't be
any conflicts with running software).

You should be able to see a good deal of that activity,
as long as you find a tutorial page to go with the
download. The download by itself isn't going to
help someone, as they need a crafted command to
run it. And using something like WPR isn't the
answer either, as it'll waste 2 hours of your
time and do half a dozen reboots, all for nothing.
There are tools in the kit that are pure showboating,
and not getting to the heart of the matter.

The tools also don't solve the problem of identifying
svchosts. A number of svchosts only have one service inside
them, but if you're sitting in the graphing tool later,
all you'll see is SVCHOST pid_number and you won't
be given any clue which one it is. PIDs are randomly
assigned at boot, so no two runs of the OS uses the
same assignments. This is the same behavior you'd
see on Linux, Unix, or MacOSX, pids are randomly
assigned on each run, as a function of the timing
and startup when the OS boots. It's when a process
has a "real name" that we can understand what they do.

Paul

Thank you so much for responding, Paul.

I suspect my nephew is unlikely to be able to master the procedure - he
has little patience!!!

He did, though, run an HP test yestwerday with this result:
https://imgur.com/gallery/v2Yjq

This afternoon he/we did a system restore on his machine but there has
been no improvement. Still slow to start up and won't turn off unless
the 'Power On/Off' button is pressed.

After the 'Restore' he had a McAfee icon on his desktop. He used
Control Panel to remove it. I've just noticed this online:-

http://www.thewindowsclub.com/uninst...curity-windows

Do you support what the article says?

Is there any other action you can suggest?

FWIW, whilst Dale's computer is 'ON' everything is apparently working
well. It's just the start-up and shutdown which takes a long time (it
took much longer than Windows 10 does on my laptop).


If it's a McAfee trial, yeah, you'd probably want to
remove it. The web page that has the removal tool,
should have instructions for when to use it. Some AV
removal tools, you try them after using the Programs and
Features control panel removal. Other removal tools will
just handle everything for you. As long as you follow the
instruction page, it'll probably work out.

If a machine is infected, and you're doing AV removal the
same day, then there's no guarantee what will happen.

And when you introduce a new AV, some of them can "fight"
their way into a machine and clean it. Not all of them are that
aggressive. for example, Kaspersky, it might take you several
reboots, but it can eventually clean out a malware for you.

My Win10 setup has become 20 seconds slower within
the last month. And so far, no hints as to what that
is. A CPU core rails, there's no disk I/O, and 20 seconds
later the OS comes up.

Paul

On 10/02/2018 20:40, Paul wrote:
David B. wrote:
On 10/02/2018 11:19, Paul wrote:
David B. wrote:
On 09/02/2018 23:20, Paul wrote:
David B. wrote:
On 07/02/2018 08:30, Pinnerite wrote:
A recent change in my Win-10 behaviour is that when attempting to
shutdown,
this message appears on the screen 'Error Recovery Guide
This app is preventing shutdown'

Is there a cure?

Have you tried THIS facility?

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...ed/adk-install



And what was your opinion of it ?

Â*Â*Â* Paul

Hi Paul

I've not used it myself but came across it looking for a solution to
help my nephew. He called me on Thursday advising that his desktop
HP Pavillion, only about 2 years old and running Windows 10, would
not shutdown normally any more.

I suspect that this may have been caused by a Microsoft Update and
suggested that he simply 'force' shutdowns if he REALLY wanted to
turn off his computer before another update corrected matters
(probably!).

Any guidance from you on this situation will be welcomed.


At its max, that's a 4GB download.

I know, because I got a copy a few days ago, so I could use
it on a machine while the machine was disconnected from
the Internet. I carried it over on a USB stick.

At one time, it was a 7GB download. And the download
time was listed as 24 hours because somebody at Microsoft
thought it would be funny to throttle the download. So I
had to use a multi-threaded downloader to get it in only
four hours or so. The current version doesn't do that.

The first step in problem resolution like that, is reviewing
what software is on the machine, what hacks have been applied,
for some explanation for why it's happening.

As an example, uphclean from the Win2K/WinXP era has been
rolled right into the OS design, so open registry hives
will no longer delay Windows shutdowns. But that doesn't
stop services ignoring shutdown requests or the like
from screwing things up. Neither would it help with
PendMoves which happen at shutdown time (the parts of
Windows Updates that run as the OS is shutting down,
things done at that time because there won't be
any conflicts with running software).

You should be able to see a good deal of that activity,
as long as you find a tutorial page to go with the
download. The download by itself isn't going to
help someone, as they need a crafted command to
run it. And using something like WPR isn't the
answer either, as it'll waste 2 hours of your
time and do half a dozen reboots, all for nothing.
There are tools in the kit that are pure showboating,
and not getting to the heart of the matter.

The tools also don't solve the problem of identifying
svchosts. A number of svchosts only have one service inside
them, but if you're sitting in the graphing tool later,
all you'll see is SVCHOST pid_number and you won't
be given any clue which one it is. PIDs are randomly
assigned at boot, so no two runs of the OS uses the
same assignments. This is the same behavior you'd
see on Linux, Unix, or MacOSX, pids are randomly
assigned on each run, as a function of the timing
and startup when the OS boots. It's when a process
has a "real name" that we can understand what they do.

Â*Â*Â* Paul

Thank you so much for responding, Paul.

I suspect my nephew is unlikely to be able to master the procedure -
he has little patience!!!

He did, though, run an HP test yestwerday with this result:
https://imgur.com/gallery/v2Yjq

This afternoon he/we did a system restore on his machine but there has
been no improvement. Still slow to start up and won't turn off unless
the 'Power On/Off' button is pressed.

After the 'Restore' he had aÂ* McAfee icon on his desktop. He used
Control Panel to remove it. I've just noticed this online:-

http://www.thewindowsclub.com/uninst...curity-windows

Do you support what the article says?

Is there any other action you can suggest?

FWIW, whilst Dale's computer is 'ON' everything is apparently working
well. It's just the start-up and shutdown which takes a long time (it
took much longer than Windows 10 does on my laptop).


If it's a McAfee trial, yeah, you'd probably want to
remove it. The web page that has the removal tool,
should have instructions for when to use it. Some AV
removal tools, you try them after using the Programs and
Features control panel removal. Other removal tools will
just handle everything for you. As long as you follow the
instruction page, it'll probably work out.

If a machine is infected, and you're doing AV removal the
same day, then there's no guarantee what will happen.

And when you introduce a new AV, some of them can "fight"
their way into a machine and clean it. Not all of them are that
aggressive. for example, Kaspersky, it might take you several
reboots, but it can eventually clean out a malware for you.

My Win10 setup has become 20 seconds slower within
the last month. And so far, no hints as to what that
is. A CPU core rails, there's no disk I/O, and 20 seconds
later the OS comes up.

Â*Â* Paul

Just a quiick note to thank you for your additional comments, Paul.

I'll let you know if there is any progress on the symptoms.

--
David B.

On 10/02/2018 20:40, Paul wrote:
David B. wrote:
[....]
FWIW, whilst Dale's computer is 'ON' everything is apparently working
well. It's just the start-up and shutdown which takes a long time (it
took much longer than Windows 10 does on my laptop).


If it's a McAfee trial, yeah, you'd probably want to
remove it. The web page that has the removal tool,
should have instructions for when to use it. Some AV
removal tools, you try them after using the Programs and
Features control panel removal. Other removal tools will
just handle everything for you. As long as you follow the
instruction page, it'll probably work out.

If a machine is infected, and you're doing AV removal the
same day, then there's no guarantee what will happen.

And when you introduce a new AV, some of them can "fight"
their way into a machine and clean it. Not all of them are that
aggressive. for example, Kaspersky, it might take you several
reboots, but it can eventually clean out a malware for you.

My Win10 setup has become 20 seconds slower within
the last month. And so far, no hints as to what that
is. A CPU core rails, there's no disk I/O, and 20 seconds
later the OS comes up.

Â*Â* Paul

FYI .... It appears that someone else has had identical problems
starting at the same time!

https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Deskto...es/m-p/6574566

I'm wondering if it may have been caused by a Windows Update.

Is that a possibility?

--
David B.

David B. wrote:
On 10/02/2018 20:40, Paul wrote:
David B. wrote:
[....]
FWIW, whilst Dale's computer is 'ON' everything is apparently working
well. It's just the start-up and shutdown which takes a long time (it
took much longer than Windows 10 does on my laptop).


If it's a McAfee trial, yeah, you'd probably want to
remove it. The web page that has the removal tool,
should have instructions for when to use it. Some AV
removal tools, you try them after using the Programs and
Features control panel removal. Other removal tools will
just handle everything for you. As long as you follow the
instruction page, it'll probably work out.

If a machine is infected, and you're doing AV removal the
same day, then there's no guarantee what will happen.

And when you introduce a new AV, some of them can "fight"
their way into a machine and clean it. Not all of them are that
aggressive. for example, Kaspersky, it might take you several
reboots, but it can eventually clean out a malware for you.

My Win10 setup has become 20 seconds slower within
the last month. And so far, no hints as to what that
is. A CPU core rails, there's no disk I/O, and 20 seconds
later the OS comes up.

Paul

FYI .... It appears that someone else has had identical problems
starting at the same time!

https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Deskto...es/m-p/6574566


I'm wondering if it may have been caused by a Windows Update.

Is that a possibility?


I took a look around, and that doesn't match symptoms from
anything recent, that I can see. Some of the recent problems
put a nice error message up for the user to see.

Since the poster in that thread has "nuked and paved" the
machine more than once, it makes it sound like a hardware problem.

*******

On my first PC, from the year 2000 era, I bought a complete
set of memory sticks. If I installed all four, then Windows 98
would be become unstable, and with no applications running
either. Just moving the mouse around, with four sticks of
RAM (1GB total) would crash it. If I ran with just two sticks
(512MB), it was as stable as could be. I could run Prime95 for
16 hours straight, play games, whatever, and it wouldn't
tip over.

I had applied the mitigations for "too much RAM" in Win98
to it as well, but I was still blaming some aspect of Win98
for it.

So one day, for fun, I put the sticks back, and booted a
Linux LiveCD. I moved the mouse around... and it crashed.
And then I knew it was a hardware problem. Because two
entirely different OSes would tip over as easy as could
be.

That's the benefit of running a second OS, when you suspect
a hardware problem. How does the hardware work with an entirely
different OS ? You can place Linux Live on a DVD, or on a USB Flash key,
(depending on what limited storage inputs your device has got).
The only place you'd have trouble, is perhaps with Secure Boot,
if a key wasn't available to run Linux on it. Some Tablets
might not be all that easy to boot with a second OS
for testing.

Now, since the time I had the problem with that machine,
every once in a while I drag it out for some other
experiment. And while it's set up, I run the "old"
test case again. What I discovered, is it will take
4 sticks. So it's not the number of sticks that count.
And because I have many denominations of PC133 RAM, I found
it would even run with 256,256,128,64 just fine. It
does appear to be a "quantity" issue, which we can
blame on Intel. Once the total gets past a certain
point, the thing just goes to hell on stability.
And because four sticks run, it's probably not a
bus terminator issue. It's some kind of chipset bug.

But at least now, after 17 years, I have a good idea
of what works and what doesn't work. Even if I can't
actually fix it. There's no point adding an extra
electrolytic cap to Vtt, when the symptoms don't match.

Try a second OS and see whether basic operations work
as expected.

Paul

On 11/02/2018 21:53, Paul wrote:
David B. wrote:
On 10/02/2018 20:40, Paul wrote:
David B. wrote:
[....]
FWIW, whilst Dale's computer is 'ON' everything is apparently
working well. It's just the start-up and shutdown which takes a long
time (it took much longer than Windows 10 does on my laptop).


If it's a McAfee trial, yeah, you'd probably want to
remove it. The web page that has the removal tool,
should have instructions for when to use it. Some AV
removal tools, you try them after using the Programs and
Features control panel removal. Other removal tools will
just handle everything for you. As long as you follow the
instruction page, it'll probably work out.

If a machine is infected, and you're doing AV removal the
same day, then there's no guarantee what will happen.

And when you introduce a new AV, some of them can "fight"
their way into a machine and clean it. Not all of them are that
aggressive. for example, Kaspersky, it might take you several
reboots, but it can eventually clean out a malware for you.

My Win10 setup has become 20 seconds slower within
the last month. And so far, no hints as to what that
is. A CPU core rails, there's no disk I/O, and 20 seconds
later the OS comes up.

Â*Â*Â* Paul

FYI .... It appears that someone else has had identical problems
starting at the same time!

https://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/Deskto...es/m-p/6574566


I'm wondering if it may have been caused by a Windows Update.

Is that a possibility?


I took a look around, and that doesn't match symptoms from
anything recent, that I can see. Some of the recent problems
put a nice error message up for the user to see.

Since the poster in that thread has "nuked and paved" the
machine more than once, it makes it sound like a hardware problem.

Thanks for taking the trouble to look.

I suspect that it won't be easy to diagnose, even for a 'professional'.

*******

On my first PC, from the year 2000 era, I bought a complete
set of memory sticks. If I installed all four, then Windows 98
would be become unstable, and with no applications running
either. Just moving the mouse around, with four sticks of
RAM (1GB total) would crash it. If I ran with just two sticks
(512MB), it was as stable as could be. I could run Prime95 for
16 hours straight, play games, whatever, and it wouldn't
tip over.

I had applied the mitigations for "too much RAM" in Win98
to it as well, but I was still blaming some aspect of Win98
for it.

So one day, for fun, I put the sticks back, and booted a
Linux LiveCD. I moved the mouse around... and it crashed.
And then I knew it was a hardware problem. Because two
entirely different OSes would tip over as easy as could
be.

That's the benefit of running a second OS, when you suspect
a hardware problem. How does the hardware work with an entirely
different OS ? You can place Linux Live on a DVD, or on a USB Flash key,
(depending on what limited storage inputs your device has got).
The only place you'd have trouble, is perhaps with Secure Boot,
if a key wasn't available to run Linux on it. Some Tablets
might not be all that easy to boot with a second OS
for testing.

Now, since the time I had the problem with that machine,
every once in a while I drag it out for some other
experiment. And while it's set up, I run the "old"
test case again. What I discovered, is it will take
4 sticks. So it's not the number of sticks that count.
And because I have many denominations of PC133 RAM, I found
it would even run with 256,256,128,64 just fine. It
does appear to be a "quantity" issue, which we can
blame on Intel. Once the total gets past a certain
point, the thing just goes to hell on stability.
And because four sticks run, it's probably not a
bus terminator issue. It's some kind of chipset bug.

But at least now, after 17 years, I have a good idea
of what works and what doesn't work. Even if I can't
actually fix it. There's no point adding an extra
electrolytic cap to Vtt, when the symptoms don't match.

Try a second OS and see whether basic operations work
as expected.

Â*Â* Paul

I enjoyed your story - thanks! :-)

Your suggestion of running another OS will be explained to my nephew.
He's actually a Tax Manager with a firm of accountants and has little
interest in how and why a computer operates - he just wants it to 'work'!

The first 'real' personal computer I bought was a BBC Micro, Model B, in
1983. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Micro

--
David B.