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#16
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Advice on maximising lifetime (charge cycles) of laptop battery
nospam wrote:
In article , KenW wrote: Today's laptops stop charging when the battery is at 100%. At least that is what the indicators show. all battery operated products stop charging when the battery is fully charged. otherwise, bad things happen, like fires and explosions, and customers don't like that very much. "all battery operated products stop charging" --- Actually, they don't. Not all of them. Ask Black and Decker, how not to design electronics. The cheapest charger you can make, is just a resistor and a DC supply of some sort. And, to save money, that's what you get in products sometimes. Because Lithium is a hazard and can end up as a Class Action lawsuit or a suit for damages, that's why they were pretty well forced to spend a few extra bucks for precision silicon charging solutions. One too many news reports, of a product catching fire, tends to do that. If a product uses SLA or NiCd, you can trickle charge those. The user might not know they're shortening product life by not unplugging it after a charge cycle is complete. The manufacturer of the product stands to gain from this design shortcoming. It's not intelligence. It's not "doing good design". Cheapness comes first. Safety, only if you get caught doing something unsafe. There are products which will "trickle charge forever" if you don't unplug them. Using a resistor for $0.05 will do that for you. If all products had precision charging, no matter what battery type, we would not have to "manage" the product by unplugging the AC adapter (manually) at the correct time. Paul |
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#17
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Advice on maximising lifetime (charge cycles) of laptop battery
In article , Paul
wrote: Today's laptops stop charging when the battery is at 100%. At least that is what the indicators show. all battery operated products stop charging when the battery is fully charged. otherwise, bad things happen, like fires and explosions, and customers don't like that very much. "all battery operated products stop charging" --- Actually, they don't. Not all of them. yes they very definitely do. otherwise things go boom. when a battery reaches full charge, charging either switches to a maintenance charge to counter the self-discharge rate or it idles until the battery self-discharges below a threshold, at which point, charging resumes. the days of dumb chargers are long gone. Ask Black and Decker, how not to design electronics. The cheapest charger you can make, is just a resistor and a DC supply of some sort. And, to save money, that's what you get in products sometimes. only ****ty products, and not ones with lithium ion batteries, which at a minimum have their own protection circuitry in the battery itself but may also have a built in charger so that they can be charged off any dc supply. Because Lithium is a hazard and can end up as a Class Action lawsuit or a suit for damages, that's why they were pretty well forced to spend a few extra bucks for precision silicon charging solutions. One too many news reports, of a product catching fire, tends to do that. no, that's not why, however, some manufacturers do skimp on the protection circuitry, which is why noname batteries are best avoided. manufacturing defects can also cause problems with lithium ion batteries. just ask samsung. If a product uses SLA or NiCd, you can trickle charge those. all battery types can be trickle charged, however, the specifics will vary, depending on the chemistry. The user might not know they're shortening product life by not unplugging it after a charge cycle is complete. The manufacturer of the product stands to gain from this design shortcoming. no they don't. customers aren't likely to buy another product from the same manufacturer when the one they previously had failed and/or when competing products last much longer. It's not intelligence. It's not "doing good design". Cheapness comes first. Safety, only if you get caught doing something unsafe. There are products which will "trickle charge forever" if you don't unplug them. Using a resistor for $0.05 will do that for you. no it won't. trickle charging requires property detecting eoc and then dropping the charge rate. If all products had precision charging, no matter what battery type, we would not have to "manage" the product by unplugging the AC adapter (manually) at the correct time. users don't have to manage charging by manually unplugging the device except for very old products that have dumb chargers, which are mostly obsolete. modern products can be left plugged in all the time without risk and without impacting battery longevity. of course, no device is immune to defects. nothing is perfect. |
#18
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Advice on maximising lifetime (charge cycles) of laptop battery
ghyrpejsekieddrjiljhy wrote:
On 6/24/2018 3:17 AM, NY wrote: Is there anything I should be doing differently so the battery won't die after a couple of years? My phone came with a turbo charger that will fully charge my depleted battery in an hour or so. I've often wondered the same thing. Should I use a standard charger to save on battery life because it seemed to me the fast charge would add extra stress to the battery? I settled on using the standard charger overnight and the turbo charger when I needed the quick charge. Then I read that overnight charging is bad. So I tried wireless charging but then the phone became very hot so that seemed bad also. Can't win. Bottom line: I said screw it and just used whatever was convenient. The battery is now 2 years old and I notice no difference from when it was new... :-/ http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a..._ion_batteries "Increasing the charge current does not hasten the *full-charge* state by much. Although the battery reaches the voltage peak quicker, the saturation charge will take longer accordingly. With higher current, Stage 1 is shorter but the saturation during Stage 2 will take longer. A high current charge will, however, quickly fill the battery to about 70 percent. " http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/ See the graph on this page, for what turbo charging is doing to the battery. There's some apparent capacity loss from the abuse. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a..._fast_chargers ******* Not all battery chemistries or designs, tolerate turbo charging. For example, the 5 amp hour and 8 amp hour NiCd D cell batteries, they only charge at C/10 and take ten to sixteen hours. I learned this, by actually downloading a datasheet for one such product. And the info is in the datasheet, as to what charging modes are acceptable. The slow charging rate, makes determining the end-point harder for that chemistry. In the case of Lithium, they seem to use a simple voltage threshold, to detect end of Stage 1. This simplifies charger chip design a lot. Other battery chemistries use dV/dt, and if the cell voltage drops for a minute or two, after gradually rising for a number of hours, that's a sign to the battery charger, that the cell is full. If you set the constant current charging level to a low value, it makes it difficult to detect the "end point" - the dV/dt "bump" is too small and is lost in the measurement noise. So if you were contemplating designing your own battery charger for a large NiCd, you have to charge it fast enough so you can precisely stop charging it. Using dV/dt and noticing the voltage effect caused by cell pressure. Some battery chemistries could have benefited from an actual pressure sensor inserted inside the battery, but like "belt and suspenders", if the pressure sensor failed, you still need an electronic charge termination scheme as a backup. So nothing is gained, in a cost-sensitive world. On some chemistries, there are thermal effects, pressure effects, dV/dt, and some chargers for example, actually have a thermistor to detect the temperature rise near the end of the charge cycle. Like an autonomous vehicle with "sensor fusion", a well designed charger can observe multiple parameters, in an effort to detect failures in the charging scheme. (If you miss dV/dt, the temp rise can tell you to "stop what you're doing".) Paul |
#19
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Advice on maximising lifetime (charge cycles) of laptop battery
On 6/24/2018 11:25 AM, nospam wrote:
In article , ghyrpejsekieddrjiljhy wrote: The wife's iPhone battery swelled up so much it popped the case that's a defective battery and apple will replace it for no charge, as it poses a danger to you and those around you. That would be nice but Apple didn't seem to care much about my safety when I called. They still wanted big $$$ to replace an out of warranty battery. |
#20
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Advice on maximising lifetime (charge cycles) of laptop battery
Char Jackson wrote:
On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 19:27:34 +0100, Stephen wrote: On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 11:02:09 -0500, Char Jackson wrote: To the OP: What kind of laptop has a battery that is not easily replaceable? Tablets and phones, but now laptops, too? HP Envy for 1. HP offers battery replacement info for at least one of their Envy models he https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c04351268 It looks inconvenient, but certainly not impossible. Anything with an Apple logo...... I don't own anything with an Apple logo, so thanks for that. In 2018, that's the first thing a savvy buyer looks for when shopping at the Best Buy. Tip the unit over, look for a removable battery. No battery removal ? Keep moving down the aisle until you find a maintainable product with a removable battery pack. Paul |
#21
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Advice on maximising lifetime (charge cycles) of laptop battery
nospam wrote:
In article , Paul wrote: Today's laptops stop charging when the battery is at 100%. At least that is what the indicators show. all battery operated products stop charging when the battery is fully charged. otherwise, bad things happen, like fires and explosions, and customers don't like that very much. "all battery operated products stop charging" --- Actually, they don't. Not all of them. yes they very definitely do. otherwise things go boom. when a battery reaches full charge, charging either switches to a maintenance charge to counter the self-discharge rate or it idles until the battery self-discharges below a threshold, at which point, charging resumes. the days of dumb chargers are long gone. Ask Black and Decker, how not to design electronics. The cheapest charger you can make, is just a resistor and a DC supply of some sort. And, to save money, that's what you get in products sometimes. only ****ty products, and not ones with lithium ion batteries, which at a minimum have their own protection circuitry in the battery itself but may also have a built in charger so that they can be charged off any dc supply. Because Lithium is a hazard and can end up as a Class Action lawsuit or a suit for damages, that's why they were pretty well forced to spend a few extra bucks for precision silicon charging solutions. One too many news reports, of a product catching fire, tends to do that. no, that's not why, however, some manufacturers do skimp on the protection circuitry, which is why noname batteries are best avoided. manufacturing defects can also cause problems with lithium ion batteries. just ask samsung. If a product uses SLA or NiCd, you can trickle charge those. all battery types can be trickle charged, however, the specifics will vary, depending on the chemistry. The user might not know they're shortening product life by not unplugging it after a charge cycle is complete. The manufacturer of the product stands to gain from this design shortcoming. no they don't. customers aren't likely to buy another product from the same manufacturer when the one they previously had failed and/or when competing products last much longer. It's not intelligence. It's not "doing good design". Cheapness comes first. Safety, only if you get caught doing something unsafe. There are products which will "trickle charge forever" if you don't unplug them. Using a resistor for $0.05 will do that for you. no it won't. trickle charging requires property detecting eoc and then dropping the charge rate. If all products had precision charging, no matter what battery type, we would not have to "manage" the product by unplugging the AC adapter (manually) at the correct time. users don't have to manage charging by manually unplugging the device except for very old products that have dumb chargers, which are mostly obsolete. modern products can be left plugged in all the time without risk and without impacting battery longevity. of course, no device is immune to defects. nothing is perfect. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a..._metal_hydride "NiMH dislikes overcharge, and the trickle charge is set to around 0.05C. NiCd is better at absorbing overcharge and the original NiCd chargers had a trickle charge of 0.1C. " The latter statement, allows a disreputable manufacturer to design a C/10 resistor-based charger, that ruins the battery by charging it forever. The C/10 rate of trickle, overlaps with the C/10 of "regular charging", so the manufacturer calls that a good deal and uses a $0.05 resistor that charges all the live-long day. Until the battery is baked from this. Then you wonder why that battery pack for the electric screwdriver you never use, has no capacity left. They will do whatever they can get away with. Profit. Your Dust Buster would work the same way. No intelligent silicon in the charge circuit, just a $0.05 resistor and C/10 (10 to 16 hour) full charge time. Paul |
#22
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Advice on maximising lifetime (charge cycles) of laptop battery
In article , ghyrpejsekieddrjiljhy
wrote: The wife's iPhone battery swelled up so much it popped the case that's a defective battery and apple will replace it for no charge, as it poses a danger to you and those around you. That would be nice but Apple didn't seem to care much about my safety when I called. They still wanted big $$$ to replace an out of warranty battery. don't call. they just read from a script. take it into an apple store, where they can see the swelling. |
#23
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Advice on maximising lifetime (charge cycles) of laptop battery
In article , Paul
wrote: If all products had precision charging, no matter what battery type, we would not have to "manage" the product by unplugging the AC adapter (manually) at the correct time. users don't have to manage charging by manually unplugging the device except for very old products that have dumb chargers, which are mostly obsolete. modern products can be left plugged in all the time without risk and without impacting battery longevity. of course, no device is immune to defects. nothing is perfect. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a..._metal_hydride "NiMH dislikes overcharge, and the trickle charge is set to around 0.05C. NiCd is better at absorbing overcharge and the original NiCd chargers had a trickle charge of 0.1C. " consumer products haven't used nicad in a very long time and nimh isn't normally used for phones or laptops anymore. most stuff uses lithium ion because of the higher power density. in any event, there is no need to manually plug and unplug a charger anymore, nor was there even when nicad/nimh were common. chargers can (and will) detect eoc and switch to trickle. not doing so is a safety hazard. |
#24
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Advice on maximising lifetime (charge cycles) of laptop battery
nospam wrote:
In article , ghyrpejsekieddrjiljhy wrote: The wife's iPhone battery swelled up so much it popped the case that's a defective battery and apple will replace it for no charge, as it poses a danger to you and those around you. That would be nice but Apple didn't seem to care much about my safety when I called. They still wanted big $$$ to replace an out of warranty battery. don't call. they just read from a script. take it into an apple store, where they can see the swelling. Genius appointment first before going in! But do they usually batteries in stock to replace right away? -- Quote of the Week: "It's them!... Not THEM, the giant ants?!" --Girl and Crow Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly. /\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org / /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit- | |o o| | ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and URL/link. \ _ / ( ) |
#25
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Advice on maximising lifetime (charge cycles) of laptop battery
In article , Ant
wrote: The wife's iPhone battery swelled up so much it popped the case that's a defective battery and apple will replace it for no charge, as it poses a danger to you and those around you. That would be nice but Apple didn't seem to care much about my safety when I called. They still wanted big $$$ to replace an out of warranty battery. don't call. they just read from a script. take it into an apple store, where they can see the swelling. Genius appointment first before going in! they do walk-ins But do they usually batteries in stock to replace right away? they do now because of the huge influx of people wanting a battery replacement even though they don't actually need one. |
#26
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Advice on maximising lifetime (charge cycles) of laptop battery
nospam wrote: ghyrpejsekieddrjiljhy wrote: The wife's iPhone battery swelled up so much it popped the case that's a defective battery and apple will replace it for no charge, as it poses a danger to you and those around you. That would be nice but Apple didn't seem to care much about my safety when I called. They still wanted big $$$ to replace an out of warranty battery. don't call. they just read from a script. take it into an apple store, where they can see the swelling. It was the Apple store that I talked to on the phone. I should drive an hour to the same store in the hope that they will change their mind? No thanks. It took me less than hour to replace the battery myself. Not to mention the big savings in my future sans Apple products... |
#27
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Advice on maximising lifetime (charge cycles) of laptop battery
nospam wrote:
In article , Ant wrote: The wife's iPhone battery swelled up so much it popped the case that's a defective battery and apple will replace it for no charge, as it poses a danger to you and those around you. That would be nice but Apple didn't seem to care much about my safety when I called. They still wanted big $$$ to replace an out of warranty battery. don't call. they just read from a script. take it into an apple store, where they can see the swelling. Genius appointment first before going in! they do walk-ins Doesn't that take longer with all those people in the crowded stores? :O But do they usually batteries in stock to replace right away? they do now because of the huge influx of people wanting a battery replacement even though they don't actually need one. Oh good. No need to ask for battery orders like the $29 iPhone batteries in the beginning. -- Quote of the Week: "It's them!... Not THEM, the giant ants?!" --Girl and Crow Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly. /\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org / /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit- | |o o| | ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and URL/link. \ _ / ( ) |
#28
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Advice on maximising lifetime (charge cycles) of laptop battery
Paul wrote:
In the case of Lithium, they seem to use a simple voltage threshold, to detect end of Stage 1. Hey Paul, Without looking, I doubt they use a trickle charge since lithium does not leak like prior technologies. I am still going by the principle "the slower the better". If it works with lithium, it would be especially useful with lithium given the fact there is very little leakage current. You can take longer to charge the battery while wasting very little energy due to leakage. If I need it charged quickly, so be it. But if there is no hurry, then there is no reason to hurry. Someone told me they last longest when they are kept around half capacity. One familiar warning is to avoid discharging lithium to zero, in dumb devices. That's all I know... |
#29
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Advice on maximising lifetime (charge cycles) of laptop battery
Paul wrote:
If you own a UPS, you can run the laptop off the adapter via the UPS, and just leave the battery unplugged. Then you're not constantly playing with the battery like it was a yoyo :-) The UPS takes the place of the battery in the event the AC power goes off, and gives you time to shutdown. Even though it is plugged in, the laptop runs off of the battery until the battery voltage reduces to a certain point? If it runs off of the wall when plugged in, you can just plug it into the UPS WITHOUT removing the battery. If that is the case, I would rather have it plugged into a voltage regulator than into a UPS. |
#30
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Advice on maximising lifetime (charge cycles) of laptop battery
John Doe wrote:
One familiar warning is to avoid discharging lithium to zero, in dumb devices. That's all I know... This is true for battery packs with multiple cells. If you have a 14.4V battery pack, it could be using multiple cells, and running those down to zero is not allowed. (As the charger checks, and if it detects a low voltage, it won't inject current.) When you have a single cell, like my digital camera does, you can run those down to 0 volts. The reason you can do that, is there is no danger of a single cell "reverse biasing itself". Whereas if you have a battery pack with multiple cells then "N-1" cells can strong-arm the "weak" cell and place it under reverse bias, and cause it to plate out metal. In a lot of cases, if we could disassemble battery packs and charge the cells individually, that would be safe and effective. Once cells become mis-matched in a battery pack, that just accelerates the opportunity for reverse biasing. Battery packs work best if all the batteries are of matched capacity in amp-hours. Paul |
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