Quick assessment of 3 Windows tools to read/write Linux filesystems on dual-boot desktops

"Arlen H. Holder"
news alt.comp.freeware, wrote:

I already clicked everything I could think of, where 7-zip does
not seem to even "see" any of the dual-boot Linux partitions.
http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=51629247zip.jpg

You're going about this the long way...

At least 7zip didn't work for me where my dual boot setup is 100%
standard.

What do you mean by 100% standard?

I thought I'd save you some time and increase the tribal knowledge.
This is not new information for me, because i've been doing this for
quite some time. My network as I've mentioned before is primarily
Linux based but does have one native XP machine still present.

As I do alot of technical service work, it's very handy to be able
to mount different types of file systems I run across; but I do NOT,
absolutely ****ing do NOT write to original/masters. If I need to do
some writing to the drive, i'm going to image it completely
beforehand, AND, verify I have a solid image to work from.

https://linuxconfig.org/how-to-mount...d-write-access

I'd still strongly advise that you elect to mount your NTFS
partitions as read only; not read/write. The safest way to exchange
files between them in a dual boot configuration is by having a fat32
partition. Both OSes can safely read and write to it all day long
without any danger of file system corruption.

You can even set it up as a cron job or bash script, or whatever you
prefer and just 'run' it when you've logged into your Linux OS.
You really are going about things the long way by taking the routes
you've taken so far. Linux can (most distros, but i'm not going to
tell you they all will out of the box, I know better) in most cases,
with little work on your part, mount any NTFS partition you like;
with write access in many cases, if you want it. I still, do NOT
recommend you take advantage of that particular option. I love
linux, I really do, but, it's not perfect and relies on reverse
engineering to read/write to NTFS. Reading NTFS worst case, you
don't get exactly what you tried to read and have to try again.
Writing to NTFS if something goes wrong can do anything from
disabling your dual boot, to rendering you no access to the contents
of your NTFS partition until it's repaired. IF it can be.



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Shadow
Mon, 24 Sep 2018 19:06:55 GMT in alt.comp.freeware, wrote:

Will give me my Devuan install, but it's VERY slow compared
to
ext2fs. Takes 2 minutes to load it .... but once it's open, it
quite fast to copy and paste a file into windows.

You guys are going about this the long way G But thats one of the
cool things about computing, usually more than one way to accomplish
something.



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And then the fight started.......

"Arlen H. Holder"
news alt.comp.freeware, wrote:

On Tue, 25 Sep 2018 00:05:46 -0400, Paul wrote:

It took going back and reading Micks post a couple
times until it dawned on me "hmmm sector level".

Thanks for finding that sector-level data, Paul.

LOL...

I'm still a bit confused as to which of the half-dozen programs
that can *read* the dual-boot-linux partitions can also *write* to
them without corruption.

You should NOT, I repeat, you should NOT be writing to NTFS
partitions from outside of Windows. Documentation is sketchy on NTFS.
It's a closed source file system. MS won't provide documentation for
others to be able to safely interact with it. Every time you write to
NTFS using ANY linux driver/software, you're taking a risk of
corrupting the contents (or the tables) of the NTFS partition.

Does anyone here know, offhand, from your own experience, which of
the half dozen also *write* reliably to those partitions?

NONE of the freeware ones are reliable for writing in all cases. I
repeat, NONE OF THEM. Do NOT use their writing features. If you want
to share data between your OSes, format a partition as fat32; they
can BOTH READ AND WRITE TO IT SAFELY, without any risk of corruption
at the file system or file content levels. The ONLY reason the
Paragon software is safe to use is because they have MS documentation
and their blessing. They didn't have to reverse engineer the file
system or rely on others previous reverse engineering efforts. They
have the structure and everything else information wise required to
perform safe reads and writes on ALL NTFS versions and variants. Yes,
more than one certainly do exist and nearly all of them are still in
use today.

Fat32 will limit you to a file size limit of 4gigs, and waste space
at the sector level depending on drive size and format configuration
(you can adjust that manually to regain some lost space at a
performance price), but otherwise, you'll notice no real difference
between it and various other file systems; obviously taking into
consideration it has nor offers no real concept of user
rights/file/file content security.

OTH, it's the safest, most dependable method of exchanging files on a
dual boot (Windows/Linux or Windows/OSX or Windows/Linux/OSX (yes,
all three) setup. That's what you should be doing, instead of chasing
your tale to improve your so called tribal knowledge.

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frank_n_2017
news alt.comp.freeware, wrote:

On 2018/09/25 11:53, Shadow wrote:
No, I read them with 7-Zip without ext2fsd.
And they don't get a letter, they get the partition's
location
(for want of a better name)
Ex
\\.\PhysicalDrive0\4.img\


Thanks, Shadow, first time ever I see this and it works indeed in
7zip.

It is something peculiar to 7zip, Windows Explorer refuses to take
seriously \\.\PhysicalDrive0\.

When you manage to assign a letter to a Linux partition via
ext2fsd or otherwise, you can access the ext-partition from any
file manager under Windows.

Don't use it to write files to windows while under linux.. you are
placing the contents of your NTFS partition(s) in harms way when you do
so.

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The bigger they are, the harder they hit.

Removed the "freeware" newsgroup, as the question is Windows only

Diesel,

You have to understand that NTFS isn't public/open source.
....
Changes in the NTFS file system are known to occur from time
to time. Some are larger than others, but, any is enough to make
a driver unsafe to use for writing.

Thanks for the warning. And yes, I was also assuming (mistaken, as it turns
out) that NTFS was a well-documented and unencumbered filesystem.

But I have to ask: As FAT32 is whoofully shortfalling in regard to being
able to handle the large disks of nowerdays (even a single Terrabyte drive
would easily exhaust all available drive letters), what filesystem would you
advice to use on Windows if-and-when someone would not like to be bound to
the OS ?

I could use a(n ofcourse Linux based) NAS, but would like to keep it locally
(don't really want to keep the NAS running when its not used, but have no
desire to switch on (and off) two machines just to be able to use a single
one).

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

P.s.
You can't step twice in the same river twice.

Some deeper meaning of using the word "twice" twice, or just a mistake ?

Hmmm, I just noticed (googled) that its something an ancient philosopher
named Heraclitus said - most likely referring to the same bit of river
water, not the river in its whole. Context, context. :-)

Diesel wrote:

However, my weapon of choice to READ (not write!) ext/2/3/4 is
7-Zip. Both the command line program (7z.exe) and the 7z file
manager (7zFM.exe) support full read access to physical drives
(and files) in ext2/3/4 format. I've never seen the need to use
any other tool for that purpose. And I would never use a Windows
app to WRITE to an ext2/3/4 file system.

(I'm the chap who wrote that.)


Wow! That's a neat idea, if it works!

It does. You'll notice, they specifically (like myself) do NOT
encourage the use of ANY linux based software to WRITE to any NTFS
based file system. There IS a valid reason for that.

That's utter ********, putting words into my mouth I never actually
said.

I was talking about a set of *WINDOWS* programs to read ext2/3/4
partitions (or files formatted as ext2/3/4) under *WINDOWS*, nothing
more and nothing less.

I was specifically *NOT* talking about "Linux based software" reading
from or writing to an NTFS-based file system. This is a different kettle
of fish; I have Linux systems up and running for years which actually do
write extensively to NTFS partitions w/o any trouble whatsoever. (At any
rate, I also have current backups.)

I would agree though that every user has to do their own risk analysis,
based on their know-how, willingness to solve problems and perhaps the
general consensus of "those in the know". The problem with the latter is
that it's not always obvious who's in the know.

--
Mick

On 24/09/2018 20:06, Shadow wrote:

You are correct.
If I place

\\.\PhysicalDrive0\

In the location, I can see my Linux partitions.

\\.\PhysicalDrive0\6.img\

Will give me my Devuan install, but it's VERY slow compared to
ext2fs. Takes 2 minutes to load it

If you examine the progress dialogue, particularly the wording of it,
what seems to be happening is that 7-zip is copying the contents of the
drive to a temporary location within Windows, hence the long time to open.

but once it's open, it quite
fast to copy and paste a file into windows.

Well, yes, it would then be no slower or quicker than copying to and
from the native Windows file system, because that's exactly what's
happening!

I'm not saying that this facility may not sometimes be useful, and I'm
glad Mick has brought it to our attention, but it's not really the same
as a low-level driver reading/writing the disk in real time. I think
there is still a need for the latter which, judging by the reports of
others, has still to be adequately met.

On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 10:41:56 +0200, "R.Wieser"
wrote:

Removed the "freeware" newsgroup, as the question is Windows only

Diesel,

You have to understand that NTFS isn't public/open source.
...
Changes in the NTFS file system are known to occur from time
to time. Some are larger than others, but, any is enough to make
a driver unsafe to use for writing.

Thanks for the warning. And yes, I was also assuming (mistaken, as it turns
out) that NTFS was a well-documented and unencumbered filesystem.

But I have to ask: As FAT32 is whoofully shortfalling in regard to being
able to handle the large disks of nowerdays (even a single Terrabyte drive
would easily exhaust all available drive letters), what filesystem would you
advice to use on Windows if-and-when someone would not like to be bound to
the OS ?

Why would a 1TB drive need more than a single drive letter? Just format
it with a single partition and give that partition a letter.

If, for some reason, a person really did want to create multiple
partitions to the point where drive letters are exhausted, (not a great
idea unless a person has a very specific reason), partitions can be
mounted as a path in an empty NTFS folder.

Char,

Why would a 1TB drive need more than a single drive letter?

I think you missed that I was talking about FAT32 *and* that I would like to
know whats available, other than (the proprietary) NTFS.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser





"Char Jackson" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 10:41:56 +0200, "R.Wieser"
wrote:

Removed the "freeware" newsgroup, as the question is Windows only

Diesel,

You have to understand that NTFS isn't public/open source.
...
Changes in the NTFS file system are known to occur from time
to time. Some are larger than others, but, any is enough to make
a driver unsafe to use for writing.

Thanks for the warning. And yes, I was also assuming (mistaken, as it
turns
out) that NTFS was a well-documented and unencumbered filesystem.

But I have to ask: As FAT32 is whoofully shortfalling in regard to being
able to handle the large disks of nowerdays (even a single Terrabyte drive
would easily exhaust all available drive letters), what filesystem would
you
advice to use on Windows if-and-when someone would not like to be bound to
the OS ?

Why would a 1TB drive need more than a single drive letter? Just format
it with a single partition and give that partition a letter.

If, for some reason, a person really did want to create multiple
partitions to the point where drive letters are exhausted, (not a great
idea unless a person has a very specific reason), partitions can be
mounted as a path in an empty NTFS folder.

R.Wieser wrote:
Removed the "freeware" newsgroup, as the question is Windows only

Diesel,

You have to understand that NTFS isn't public/open source.
...
Changes in the NTFS file system are known to occur from time
to time. Some are larger than others, but, any is enough to make
a driver unsafe to use for writing.

Thanks for the warning. And yes, I was also assuming (mistaken, as it turns
out) that NTFS was a well-documented and unencumbered filesystem.

But I have to ask: As FAT32 is whoofully shortfalling in regard to being
able to handle the large disks of nowerdays (even a single Terrabyte drive
would easily exhaust all available drive letters), what filesystem would you
advice to use on Windows if-and-when someone would not like to be bound to
the OS ?

I could use a(n ofcourse Linux based) NAS, but would like to keep it locally
(don't really want to keep the NAS running when its not used, but have no
desire to switch on (and off) two machines just to be able to use a single
one).

FWIW, I have a Synology (DS115j) NAS and that can power down the drive
('HDD hibernation') when the NAS isn't accessed for a given time. When
the NAS is accessed again, the drive will again power/spin up.

On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 07:47:10 -0000 (UTC), Diesel wrote:

Don't use it to write files to windows while under linux.. you are
placing the contents of your NTFS partition(s) in harms way when you do
so.

*Many people are paralyzed by abject inordinately incomprehensible fear.*

Bear in mind that intelligent people like Paul and others have successfully
booted to Linux in order to "write" to the Windows System directory, e.g.,
we have entire threads on how best to do that in the safest way to
accomplish things that Microsoft doesn't want us to accomplish.

Writing safely to the Windows system directory is discussed in detail
multiple times on the Windows 10 newsgroup, which is hard to search for
articles on since the two known archives have crappy search mechanisms.
http://tinyurl.com/alt-comp-os-windows-10
http://alt.comp.os.windows-10.narkive.com

Suffice to say Paul is intimately familiar (more so than I), with the
various tweaks Microsoft does so that the Linux methods, over the years,
have to be changed.

Point is that the inordinately fearful people will say you can't do what
you can clearly do, if you're not supremely paralyzed by abject fear.

HINT: I've done it, but I've also done a lot that corrupts things too.
DOUBLE HINT: I'm not paralyzed by fear so I take those chances.

On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 07:46:24 -0000 (UTC), Diesel wrote:

I'll let you slide on those pesky details because I haven't seen you
claim to be anything more than a power level end user. Had you
claimed to be a technician or something instead, I'd show you no
mercy.

Hehhehheh ...

I only claim to be an adult of average intelligence who owns the following
devices (more than one of each), where I expect all of my devices to allow
me full read and write access to any file I want access to on any of those
devices without the need for Orwellian-restricted proprietary software over
and above that of the operating system itself.
1. Windows
2. Ubuntu
3. iPads & iPods
4. Android

I've made this claim many times - so - you can "google it" for proof.

I've been making similar devices interoperable since the Samba/CAP days of
getting the Mac files (remember resource & data forks) to play nice with
Linux files (samba & smbclient) and with Windows (SMB).

Likewise, I've been doing it for iPods for a very long time (remember the
older versions of SharePod freeware which didn't need NET Framework in the
2.x days, and which didn't need the iTunes abomination in the 3.x days).

As I'm of average intelligence, my expectations are simply that for the
devices I own and use, I naturally expect them all to allow me full and
complete read and write access to any file I want on them, without the need
to purchase or use Orwellian-restricted proprietary software.

I expect the same average intelligence & interoperability goals from you.

On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 17:36:41 +0200, "R.Wieser"
wrote:

Char,

Why would a 1TB drive need more than a single drive letter?

I think you missed that I was talking about FAT32 *and* that I would like to
know whats available, other than (the proprietary) NTFS.

You said "a single Terrabyte drive would easily exhaust all available
drive letters", so I'm asking why that would be the case.

Just format it with a single partition and give that partition a letter,
right?

On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 17:36:41 +0200, "R.Wieser"
wrote:

Char,

Why would a 1TB drive need more than a single drive letter?

I think you missed that I was talking about FAT32 *and* that I would like to
know whats available, other than (the proprietary) NTFS.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

FAT 32 doesn't use up drive letters, you are just limited to something
like a 2 TB drive without special software and can't have more than
something like a 4 gig file. (some movies, for instance)


"Char Jackson" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 10:41:56 +0200, "R.Wieser"
wrote:

Removed the "freeware" newsgroup, as the question is Windows only

Diesel,

You have to understand that NTFS isn't public/open source.
...
Changes in the NTFS file system are known to occur from time
to time. Some are larger than others, but, any is enough to make
a driver unsafe to use for writing.

Thanks for the warning. And yes, I was also assuming (mistaken, as it
turns
out) that NTFS was a well-documented and unencumbered filesystem.

But I have to ask: As FAT32 is whoofully shortfalling in regard to being
able to handle the large disks of nowerdays (even a single Terrabyte drive
would easily exhaust all available drive letters), what filesystem would
you
advice to use on Windows if-and-when someone would not like to be bound to
the OS ?

Why would a 1TB drive need more than a single drive letter? Just format
it with a single partition and give that partition a letter.

If, for some reason, a person really did want to create multiple
partitions to the point where drive letters are exhausted, (not a great
idea unless a person has a very specific reason), partitions can be
mounted as a path in an empty NTFS folder.

Frank,

FWIW, I have a Synology (DS115j) NAS and that can power down
the drive ('HDD hibernation') when the NAS isn't accessed for a given
time.

I've heard good things about Synology (a friend of mine doesn't want to use
anything else).

The problem is that I actually remove power from my computers - and other
devices like printers and switches - by flipping the switch on a powerstrip
(*after* I've shut down the involved machines ofcourse :-) ).

Although I could imagine a setup where I automatically send a "shut down
now" to the NAS and have it power-up by WOL (also automatically), I would
not really like it when the shutdown either does not get generated (or for
some reason takes too long) and I bring it down hard (most likely involving
loss of data).

Regards,
Rudy Wieser