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#46
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FIXMBR redux
Excellent idea, Michael, and I'll be very interested in trying it. It
sounds reminiscent of the "Trace" debugging tools that were built into FORTRAN compilers that I learned to use 40 years ago. I'm pretty sure that the F8 tap will work on my bootable drive, I'll have to see about the other one. If it will deposit a file that I can find on either drive, I know that I can access it from the booted-up system. I don't offhand see how I can tell it to store a file anywhere, on the system that hangs halfway through and doesn't get the OS running, but I'll have to look and see and try. This is exploring brand-new ground, however, so if there's a document with instructions, for F8 booting and saving, I'd appreciate it, and will take it from there. WBL Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) wrote: Here's a thought, though I'm not sure it would work because it will place a file on your unbootable drive but you might use the option to log the boot on the bootable drive (You find this option, I've forgotten the name for the moment) on the same menu as Safe Mode; boot the system, start tapping F8, select the appropriate option which will be obvious by the name and check that log. Then do the same thing on the unbootable drive, it too, should create a bootlog. If you can access it, you might be able to compare the two and see on what exactly the boot is choking. |
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#47
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FIXMBR redux
Thanks for great idea, Michael....I found it, tried F8, selected
"Enable Bootlogging", it proceeded to the choice of XP or RC with a blue note at bottom of screen confirming bootlogging "on". Bootup proceeded normally, and when at Desktop, I did a Search all over the drive for file containing "bootlog". Searched all files including "hidden"....it found none. Is there a KB article telling all the details, or can you advise......? I expect that when I'm successful on Master Drive and have a bootlog to study, I will fire up the Slave as Master, including bootlog, and then when it hangs, I can reconfigure with that drive back in Slave position, with the attempted bootup and its log available in its files. But first I must learn how to locate the bootlog on any drive..... WBL Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) wrote: Here's a thought, though I'm not sure it would work because it will place a file on your unbootable drive but you might use the option to log the boot on the bootable drive (You find this option, I've forgotten the name for the moment) on the same menu as Safe Mode; boot the system, start tapping F8, select the appropriate option which will be obvious by the name and check that log. Then do the same thing on the unbootable drive, it too, should create a bootlog. If you can access it, you might be able to compare the two and see on what exactly the boot is choking. |
#48
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FIXMBR redux
William, try looking for ntbtlog.txt in the Windows folder.
NOTE: when you view this you may see some failures or failed to open even on the bootable drive. These are usually network related things that ordinarily cannot be accessed during bootup but are sometimes called by the system when activating a service or checking a device, hence, they result in "load failures." -- Michael Solomon MS-MVP Windows Shell/User Backup is a PC User's Best Friend DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/ "William B. Lurie" wrote in message ... Thanks for great idea, Michael....I found it, tried F8, selected "Enable Bootlogging", it proceeded to the choice of XP or RC with a blue note at bottom of screen confirming bootlogging "on". Bootup proceeded normally, and when at Desktop, I did a Search all over the drive for file containing "bootlog". Searched all files including "hidden"....it found none. Is there a KB article telling all the details, or can you advise......? I expect that when I'm successful on Master Drive and have a bootlog to study, I will fire up the Slave as Master, including bootlog, and then when it hangs, I can reconfigure with that drive back in Slave position, with the attempted bootup and its log available in its files. But first I must learn how to locate the bootlog on any drive..... WBL Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) wrote: Here's a thought, though I'm not sure it would work because it will place a file on your unbootable drive but you might use the option to log the boot on the bootable drive (You find this option, I've forgotten the name for the moment) on the same menu as Safe Mode; boot the system, start tapping F8, select the appropriate option which will be obvious by the name and check that log. Then do the same thing on the unbootable drive, it too, should create a bootlog. If you can access it, you might be able to compare the two and see on what exactly the boot is choking. |
#49
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FIXMBR redux
Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) wrote:
William, try looking for ntbtlog.txt in the Windows folder. NOTE: when you view this you may see some failures or failed to open even on the bootable drive. These are usually network related things that ordinarily cannot be accessed during bootup but are sometimes called by the system when activating a service or checking a device, hence, they result in "load failures." Thank you, Michael. I couldn't have guessed that that would be what the log is stored as. But I find such a file on the bootable drive and on the non-bootable drive. I assume that I can delete both and then recreate them, so that I'm sure they are new, and then look at them and see if they tell me anything. If you care to look at one, I've stored the bad one on my website as http://bellsouthpwp.net/billurie/b/i/ntbtlog.txt but it is *very* lengthy....about 870KB. It starts out with several dozen successful calls, followed by pages of unsuccessful one. Perhaps you'd care to give it a quick glance and tell me if you think it's likely to be fruitful. Bill L. |
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FIXMBR redux
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#51
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FIXMBR redux
Michael and/or Sharon:
bootlog ntbtlog.txt, I have done the following thus far: On my non-booting drive, I cleaned out the old bootlog and started it again with F8 and Enable bootlog. I then allowed it to 'hang', and shut down, went back to 'normal' mode of running my good drive as Master, and the non-booter as Slave. I then copied the file ntbtlog.txt from the Slave and put it on my website as http://bellsouthpwp.net/b/i/billurie/ntbtlog1.txt (I hope I typed that correctly). It is not all that big a file now, only 10K, and it shows a string of successful loads and interspersed failed loads. I gather that I must do the same for the Master drive, and then we can compare the two logs. Is that correct? -- William B. Lurie |
#52
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FIXMBR redux
Michael and/or Sharon:
I'm sticking to this 'subject' although we're wandering away from it a bit. Who is to say that MBR is what needs fixing? In any case, I have two files: http://bellsouthpwp.net/b/i/billurie/ntbtlog2.txt and http://bellsouthpwp.net/b/i/billurie/ntbtlog1.txt These are the boot logs for cold boot of my two hard drives, containing my working hard drive (log2) and the supposed clone, which gives (log1) but 'hangs'. Obviously, the 'good' one goes further and boots all the way, successfully, while the 'bad' one stops shorter. I'm hoping that one of you will look at the two logs and be able to tell me what I have to do, to get the 'bad' drive to proceed past where it now 'hangs'. Bill Lurie |
#53
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FIXMBR redux
Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) said in
: snip If you delete the partition on the drive you originally imaged, the MBR is gone, hence, if that drive is bootable upon restoring the image you created of that drive, it must be restoring the MBR when it restores the image. Deleting a partition only updates the partition table (which is after the 460-byte bootstrap area of the MBR, or sector 0). Deleting a partition does NOT touch the bootstrap program! That's why you can still use that bootstrap program on that drive after deleting, changing, or moving partitions whether using PartitionMagic, DriveImage, or FDISK (without using its undocumented /MBR parameter). |
#54
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FIXMBR redux
William B. Lurie said in :
Sharon F wrote: On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 09:54:57 -0400, William B. Lurie wrote: Oh, you are at least 105% correct, Sharon. On all counts. And I did see your note and saved the message but didn't follow up right away (or yet) because I wasn't sure I could find all the items. I'm in a ticklish position: I willingly perform any operations on the clones while keeping the Master off the system, out of harm's way, but I'm reluctant to do anything to the Master which might cause me to have *no* working system. My question, obviously, is, if I do what you show in quotes above, am I taking any chance at all that I'm endangering my Master system? No chances that I know of. I had the Recovery Console installed too with a 3 second time out. Eventually I removed it too. Those were the steps I used (including the deletion of the cmldr file) and my setup didn't keel over. The same directions can be found in this document: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=307654 Okay, I put the clone back in Slave spot so that I could search and make the deletions you recommended. I found boot.ini and removed the line referring to CMDCONS. That's the first good news. The first bad news is that Search couldn't find CMDCONS itself, nor could it find CMLDR. The second good news is that I ran that drive again in Master or Single position (alone, as Master) and this time it (of course) didn't do the RC choice,ecause it is gone from boot.ini .... But the second bad news is that it proceeds then to the black Windows XP logo screen, and then to the light blue screen where it should load my personal settings......and still hangs there. So I'll hope you can tell me how to get past that road block. Bill Lurie The cmdcons directory has the system and hidden attributes set. When searching, you must use the advanced options to enable searching of hidden and system files. However, there really isn't much searching to do. The directory is: C:\cmdcons That is, it is right under the root node. Review the following KB article: How to remove Windows Recovery Console http://support.microsoft.com/?id=555032 -- __________________________________________________ __________ *** Post replies to newsgroup. Share with others. *** Email domain = ".com" *AND* append "=NEWS=" to Subject. __________________________________________________ __________ |
#55
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FIXMBR redux
William B. Lurie said in :
» mrtee « wrote: "C:\cmdcons" is where mine is found. Just open Explorer. Thanks, Jeff. I looked for cmdcons and \cmdcons all over c: ..... several ways. Windows Explorer; Search; and even went to run 'cmd' and went to c:\ root directory and I couldn't find it. And of course, I did all the *show hidden files and folders* and cleared the Hide Protected operating system files. Of course, if I can't find those files and folders, then I don't have to delete them. Hmm, maybe you really no longer have the Recovery Console installed but the entry was left behind in boot.ini. If you select Recovery Console from the boot menu, can you actually get into Recovery Console mode? Could you show us the contents of your boot.ini file? It will list the path to find its executables for its menu selection in boot.ini. -- __________________________________________________ __________ *** Post replies to newsgroup. Share with others. *** Email domain = ".com" *AND* append "=NEWS=" to Subject. __________________________________________________ __________ |
#56
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FIXMBR redux
William B. Lurie said in :
Sharon F wrote: On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 07:40:05 -0400, William B. Lurie wrote: For one thing, I'd like to take Recovery Console out of the picture, and not by reducing its delay time to zero, but just remove that option. If any of the MVPs told me how to do that, I missed it. It was at the end of my other post to you: "To remove the recovery console, delete the cmdcons folder from the root (usually C and edit the boot.ini file to remove the reference to it." You can also delete the cmldr file that is added by the recovery console installation - also in the root folder. William, the term image is used interchangeably for a cloned hard drive and for an image set that is restored using the imaging software. Usually which type of image is being discussed is noted very early in a discussion so that both parties are on the same page. This is why I made the effort to define the distinction at the beginning of my previous message. Vanguard picked up on what I was trying to say and did a great job expanding on the two different meanings. Thanks, Vanguard! Sharon, it's indeed unfortunate that the software designer, in PQ, chose to leave the words 'copy' and 'image' mixed up. What they call a "drive image" is indeed a bunch of code which their own recovery program is supposed to convert to a clone or exact copy or duplicate of the original. Neither they nore anybody else has made it clear to tired, muddled old me, why that two-step capability is necessary or even desirable. If you were to save exact bit-for-bit-by-sector of your drive, your backup media would have to be as large as the source drive you were backing up. For an 80GB hard drive, you would need another 80GB hard drive (you cannot mix media types, like using DVD to save this type of image since the file systems and formatting along with the controller support are different). Saving an image fileset which contains a logical description of the physical definition of a partition means you can compress it (to reduce how much backup media space you will need), skip unused sectors (which DriveImage will do but not Ghost) but simply record that they were skipped, and you can use a completely different type of backup media, like CD-R[W], DVD-+R[W], tape, another drive (even using a different interface), and so on. The recovery program will use the file system needed to read the image fileset to perform a physical write based on the logical information from those files. A *clone* of a disk is what you were thinking of and will do a bit-for-bit read of each sector on the source disk and lay down that same exact data onto the target disk. So obviously your same media-type clone disk has to be the same size or larger than your source disk. Even if it were possible to save a *clone* of a hard drive onto DVD-R[W] discs, would you really want to take the time writing to slower DVDs and having to swap and store something like 20 of them when you could've save an image fileset on half or less of that? DriveImage writes its boot program on the first CD/DVD so you can boot from that and restore using that media so it is still very convenient to use the image fileset as opposed to using a clone or ISO image but the restore will take longer because of the slower media onto which the image fileset was saved unless, of course, you save it on, say, another hard disk. For disaster recovery (that is external rather than using mirroring), I prefer NOT to use hard drives because they are mechanical devices. Try to explain to your boss that you cannot do a restore because the media is okay (platters) but the interface controller on the hard drive or the actuator for the head assembly doesn't work anymore. You can destroy the removable media, too, but you could destroy CDs as well as you can destroy the platters in a hard drive, but with removable media you can get another drive to replace the faulty one. Disk images (clones or image filesets) on hard disks should only be for short-term backups, like maybe a week, for quickest recovery but not considered your long-term recovery media. I've experienced a joker dropping a hard drive and losing our recovery disk (but we had the older recovery removable media to fall back on). So I went back to where I was a month ago, when I tried making what PowerQuest describes as a "copy". I installed my Slave drive as Master and formatted it anew, as Active and Primary, and empty. I then jumpered it as Slave, put it in Slave position, put my Master on as Master, and used Drive Image 7.0 to "Copy One Drive to Another This copes the contents of your Drive directly to another drive". Actually, I copied only the first (Master) partition of my Master Drive to the Slave. I used Partition Magic to verify that the Slave Drive contained very close to the same number of bytes as the Master OS. I then shut down, jumpered the Slave Drive as a Single Drive, put it in Master position on the cable, no other drive present, and booted up. It got to where I was when I did this same thing a month ago, so at least it's reproducible. It booted through BIOS, to the place where I could select XP Pro or Recovery Console, I picked XP, and got the black Windows logo screen, and then after the usual wait, the light blue Windows logo screen, which should say "loading your personal settings"........and there it hangs. So Windows copied nicely, and all my data and files and programs and applications copied nicely, but it doesn't get to the "Loading your personal settings" place. Those words are missing from the light blue screen, and that's where I was when one of the MVPs (who shall remain nameless) convinced me that I should not use the "Drive Copy" path, that I really wanted the Image. Boy, sure sounds like what you did should have worked. The only thing that comes to mind at the moment is disk signatures. Each disk has an area where a unique signature of hex bytes get written to it. Windows NT/2000/XP will use the signatures to identify the device. That is why you can configure a partition on a disk as C:, insert a new hard drive in the physical scan chain that positions it before your old drive, and C: will still be seen as the partition on your now second hard drive. I haven't much investigated how DriveCopy works. I would've thought that it would copy ALL bytes across ALL sectors (rather than work within the bounds of partitions). That would mean it would include the track 0 along with the MBR in which the disk signature is written. But if DriveCopy doesn't touch the MRB (or track 0) then the second drive will still have its disk signature that it had before when it was not drive C:. The boot.ini file (other than for Recovery Console or some other parallel installed OS) denotes where to find Windows based on physical parameters (drive and partition), and that works because, as you've mentioned, you got past the boot procedure and get into the OS load process. Well, he couldn't get me past that road block, in the XP boot-up procedure, Sharon, maybe you can? Or maybe I need the other piece of software that somebody just suggested here. See if using the /SOS option in boot.ini on the line used to load the instance of the OS that you select. See http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/info/bootini.shtml for a reference of boot.ini setup and options. However, it sounds like you are getting farther than the driver load screen will show, anyway. Do you get the same hang if you try to boot Windows into its Safe mode? I have found, especially after some hardware changes or driver installs, that Windows will hang during the device detect phase. So I boot into Safe mode and then reboot again but into normal mode. By the way, I searched for cmdcons folder on C:\ and can't find it. Yes, I told it to seek hidden files. I did find it in boot.ini, however. See my other posts in response to you not finding the cmdcons folder. There is one other point that I would like to mention. When saving an image fileset (not making a clone), do not save it on an NTFS partition on a hard drive. While Symantec says they support the saving of the image fileset on NTFS partitions, I have encountered problems with that on many occasions. The restore will fail at some point, usually around 75%, and then abort with a message that it cannot file the image file that it was just reading okay up to that point. One cure which often helps is to NOT use the Caldera DOS that Symantec uses for the bootable floppies (and for the bootable first CD in an image fileset saved to that media type). They recommend creating an MS-DOS 6 or Windows 98/ME bootable floppy as the first floppy in their 2-floppy boot set. When Caldera DOS caused DriveImage to fail, I often could get a Win98 boot floppy to work (but then I had to restart the entire restore). This is not a problem of an NTFSDOS driver not working under Caldera DOS but working under MSDOS6 or Win98. DriveImage doesn't need that driver but it will still make BIOS calls through the underlying DOS. Hmm, this isn't some really old computer that requires a disk overlay manager in the bootstrap area of the MBR, is it? The other cure is to not save the image fileset on an NTFS partition on a hard disk and instead save it instead on a FAT32 partition (you don't have NTFS on non-hard disk drives so it isn't an issue on those other media types). This only addresses the problem if DriveImage should abort for you at some time. However, if the image restore completes okay then I would assume the entire process completed without any write errors to the restore disk. -- __________________________________________________ __________ *** Post replies to newsgroup. Share with others. *** Email domain = ".com" *AND* append "=NEWS=" to Subject. __________________________________________________ __________ |
#57
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FIXMBR redux
William B. Lurie said in :
Michael and/or Sharon: I'm sticking to this 'subject' although we're wandering away from it a bit. Who is to say that MBR is what needs fixing? In any case, I have two files: http://bellsouthpwp.net/b/i/billurie/ntbtlog2.txt and http://bellsouthpwp.net/b/i/billurie/ntbtlog1.txt These are the boot logs for cold boot of my two hard drives, containing my working hard drive (log2) and the supposed clone, which gives (log1) but 'hangs'. Obviously, the 'good' one goes further and boots all the way, successfully, while the 'bad' one stops shorter. I'm hoping that one of you will look at the two logs and be able to tell me what I have to do, to get the 'bad' drive to proceed past where it now 'hangs'. Bill Lurie I noticed that in one log it says the Norton AntiVirus files failed to load but in the other log it says they loaded okay. Since NAV will load before anyone can login (it is an NT service), a couple thoughts come to mind. As noted in my prior post, have you tried to boot into Safe mode when using the cloned drive? Perhaps NAV won't get loaded and get beyond those failures. I can't remember if NAV loads even in Safe mode. Apparently you do not have the Recovery Console installed (so either you have a bogus entry still in boot.ini or it got removed already). If you had Recovery Console mode, you could boot into it and use the 'listsvc' commmand to list them and use 'disable' command to disable the NAV service (so they don't start on the next normal boot). See the following KB article: How to Disable a Service or Device that Prevents Windows from Booting http://support.microsoft.com/?id=244905 -- __________________________________________________ __________ *** Post replies to newsgroup. Share with others. *** Email domain = ".com" *AND* append "=NEWS=" to Subject. __________________________________________________ __________ |
#58
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FIXMBR redux
I haven't used it in a long time but I always thought Ghost was a great
product. -- Michael Solomon MS-MVP Windows Shell/User Backup is a PC User's Best Friend DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/ "Cakersq" wrote in message ... The only tool I would ever use for backing up a drive is Norton or Symantec Ghost. It takes care of the MBR, partitions, files, and even can skip corrupted files. If you need another FixMBR tool, there is one on any Windows 98 or Win98SE boot disk or CD. The command to use if FDISK /MBR. |
#59
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FIXMBR redux
Yeah but aren't we just modifying the bootstrap? I agree, deleting the
partition does not touch the bootstrap. Of course, if I extend my thinking on this, it doesn't have to touch the bootstrap or MBR. If you've modified so that the bootstrap or MBR is looking for something that doesn't exist in this particular image, that would explain the error William was getting. In other words, the MBR is set to look for something that isn't in the image. I know he's going to bust my chops on that because he'll say it's an exact image but that is what I have been telling him. The hal or the hash is different because of the changed hardware configuration, hence he gets a missing or corrupt HAL.dll warning as he described. That means he's bumping right into XP's anti-piracy scheme as I had surmised. He made an image of a setup that was not installed when the other hard drive was also connected to the system. When he restores the image, XP thinks it's a different computer. -- Michael Solomon MS-MVP Windows Shell/User Backup is a PC User's Best Friend DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/ "*Vanguard*" wrote in message ... Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) said in : snip If you delete the partition on the drive you originally imaged, the MBR is gone, hence, if that drive is bootable upon restoring the image you created of that drive, it must be restoring the MBR when it restores the image. Deleting a partition only updates the partition table (which is after the 460-byte bootstrap area of the MBR, or sector 0). Deleting a partition does NOT touch the bootstrap program! That's why you can still use that bootstrap program on that drive after deleting, changing, or moving partitions whether using PartitionMagic, DriveImage, or FDISK (without using its undocumented /MBR parameter). |
#60
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FIXMBR redux
"I assume that
I can delete both and then recreate them, so that I'm sure they are new, and then look at them and see if they tell me anything." Yes. -- Michael Solomon MS-MVP Windows Shell/User Backup is a PC User's Best Friend DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/ "William B. Lurie" wrote in message ... Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User) wrote: William, try looking for ntbtlog.txt in the Windows folder. NOTE: when you view this you may see some failures or failed to open even on the bootable drive. These are usually network related things that ordinarily cannot be accessed during bootup but are sometimes called by the system when activating a service or checking a device, hence, they result in "load failures." Thank you, Michael. I couldn't have guessed that that would be what the log is stored as. But I find such a file on the bootable drive and on the non-bootable drive. I assume that I can delete both and then recreate them, so that I'm sure they are new, and then look at them and see if they tell me anything. If you care to look at one, I've stored the bad one on my website as http://bellsouthpwp.net/billurie/b/i/ntbtlog.txt but it is *very* lengthy....about 870KB. It starts out with several dozen successful calls, followed by pages of unsuccessful one. Perhaps you'd care to give it a quick glance and tell me if you think it's likely to be fruitful. Bill L. |
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