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#16
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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist
Mike Brannigan [MSFT] wrote:
Sorry David, is there a problem with my response ? I have addressed the direct issue, confirmed that the KB does provide at least a valid result on the search criteria he used, have requested his feedback where he saw a deficiency, have asked for qualification of which pages he has trouble with and have offered solutions or areas for him to additionally investigate. You also said: And all of this in the face of a fairly hostile rant. Yes, yours. Oh, and let's not forget Amethyst's self-congratulatory masturbation, eh... "Congratulations, Michael! You deserve a medal for making it all the way to the end of that diatribe without calling it a 'moron', '****wit', 'cretin', 'idiot'" Nice, eh. Or do you not see at all what just happened? No doubt you don't see it, so I'll spell it out for you. Amethyst is empathising with you and doing it using terms like 'moron', '****wit', 'cretin', 'idiot' to refer to a Microsoft customer. Nice, eh. Let me put it to you succinctly. Amethyst is suggesting that Microsoft customers are one or more of 'moron', '****wit', 'cretin', 'idiot'. Those sentiments were elicited from whatever the mad cow is pleased to call her mind based upon your public post. Did I miss something? Yes, you did. It's called customer satisfaction. Get this through your thick skull, dumb****... it doesn't matter jack **** to the OP that it's an OEM version and that the OEM is responsible for support. It matters to the OP that Windows XP is a Microsoft product. Your average user is not going to give a tinker's curse for your damned OEM rules. All he knows is that he has Microsoft Windows XP and it does not work. Do you get that, ****face? Hmm? He has Microsoft Windows XP and it does not work. The absolute very least you should have done was to completely ignore your ****ed up OEM "rules" and actually help the guy. You know? Customer relationship? But all you really did was this... It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is up to Dell to provide you with support. We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs provide support for their OEM supplied products. What a marvellous advertisement for Microsoft -- "You got screwed, we don't give a ****." And don't go saying he isn't a Microsoft customer, because he is, whether you like to admit it or not. I'll tell you something else, you ****tard. Companies generally spend 10-12 times more money on attracting new customers than they do on keeping existing ones. A happy customer will make a good recommendation to seven or eight others. A customer who has been ****ed off by a snot-nosed prat, like you for example, will go off and tell, on avarage, 10-12 people of his bad experience. The hilarious part of all this is, you ****ed up big time in front of thousands in a public forum. Well done. If I were your boss, you'd be frog-marched off to a retraining camp, but I'm not, so it's your lucky day. -- Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/ Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off. MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute |
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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist
David Candy wrote:
Yes. You responded how a technical person would respond. Technically correct. But a customer relationship nightmare. I didn't quite put it like that, but you are correct. -- Kadaitcha Man: Usenet Anarchist - http://kadaitcha.kicks-ass.org:83/ Anarchy is having to put up with things that **** you off. MVP - Most Valueless Prostitute |
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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist
In ,
David Candy typed: No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing amount of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The sell genuine MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except the company agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A large company pays least and probably doesn't supply a disk. But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with new systems. In , David Banks typed: Hi Snip Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program is not included on the standard XP installation!!!! Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then? -- (I may be wrong...I usually am....) Google is your Friend Email address deliberately false to avoid spam: www.gbpcomputing.co.uk Well in that case, if the OEM is Pro then backup IS installed by default (or should be....) -- (I may be wrong...I usually am....) Google is your Friend Email address deliberately false to avoid spam: www.gbpcomputing.co.uk |
#19
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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist
It is unless the OEM removed it (unknown to me - never heard of this)
--=20 http://www.g2mil.com/Apr2003.htm http://www.sharpword.com/fascism.htm --------------------------------------------------------------- David Candy http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros --------------------------------------------------------------- "rifleman" wrote in message = ... In , David Candy typed: No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing amount of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The = sell genuine MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except the company agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A large company pays least and probably doesn't supply a disk. But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with new systems. In , David Banks typed: Hi Snip Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup = program is not included on the standard XP installation!!!! Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then? -- (I may be wrong...I usually am....) Google is your Friend Email address deliberately false to avoid spam: www.gbpcomputing.co.uk =20 Well in that case, if the OEM is Pro then backup IS installed by = default (or should be....) =20 --=20 (I may be wrong...I usually am....) Google is your Friend Email address deliberately false to avoid spam: www.gbpcomputing.co.uk =20 =20 =20 |
#20
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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist
My resposne was certainly not menat to be glib or ridiculing the poster.
Looking at the reponses in (without the original poster text):-- This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff) ---- A comment on how the poster expects to encourage response with an derogatory opening line Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with. ---- Requesting "which" pages are problematic so I could see what the problem was Are you Save As. Web page complete. This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to that contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions to creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving. Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the content embedded. On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced better results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file) ---- options and questiosn about what the poster is doing and possible alternatives and issues that might arise The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase. If you go to the Knowledgebase at http://support.microsoft.com/ Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base) Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search topics- enter "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing and Using ... The exact phrase entered Produces one result http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589 Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ?? ---- A precise description of how to search for the error text he had and the return KB article - question of is this relevant to his problem. Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I found. ---- further request for information on what pages are problematic (since the original poster is beinging to "rant" and did not provide any examples of where the problem occured) The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM. ---- Discussion of OEM support for OEM products Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS ---- Further discussion of OEM support for OEM products You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing systems or non at all. You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they ship. See comment above about OEM support. If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements (including) choice of OS then you can go elsewhere. ---- The OP was now "ranting" about Linux and not being able to purchase a PC without Windows - I pointed out he has free choice of supplier and their product offerings. Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM. ---- Reinteration of OEM support issue (OP "rant"continues) Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ? Was it a grey import ? If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where you are.) ---- OP goes off topic about Encarta and PID issues. Asked for qualification of purchase status. Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and possibly modify or augment. ...snip ---- Further reinteration of OEM support issue (OP "rant"continues) Do you mean here http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx or http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups. ---- OP mentioned Communities issues and requirement for "technical skill" in using them What would you prefer? This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that the technical community operate in. ---- OP commmented that newsgrpups were not modern - I requesed feeback and commented on universal reach of newsgroups. We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs provide support for their OEM supplied products. ---- OP "rant" back on OEM and support - Further reinteration of OEM support issue There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as advice on setting up real newsreader programs. ---- OP stated level of "technology" require to access newsgroups. Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and then may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services. The web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions. ---- We provide links in many directions - basic web design good practice. If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made no effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or otherwise) - then this is not our fault. ---- OP claimed article on Backup was too late for him. I pointed out that Backup of his important data was his concern. Yes - we do. ---- yes we care enough to spend our own time in these groups trying to help out people, and offer service and support to them for the products they purchase. I stand by my repsond made in the face of a hostile rant. To address your particular comments:- You mention a "buck passing" culture that you claim "originates at Microsoft". This is regarding OEM product. We are not passing the buck - you get an OEM Windows at a greatly reduce cost compared to the retail product - due to the fact that you are directly supported by Microsoft. OEMs are also the only ones who know how and on what they installed the OS and any other modifications settings add-ons they have included, so are best placed to provide the initial support. At no point did I say "you don't like it, you know what you can do'" I did rightly suggest that as a consumer he has choice of vendor to purchase his PC from. People purchase complex and expensive products all the time - there usually do this in an informed manner. My mention of backup was related to his claim of loosing a years worth of important data (no reason given) - the built in backup facility is included in the retail installation of Windows XP or is usually in the VALUEADD folder on a supplied OEM CD. If the user had been concerned about backing up his data there are also a myriad third party products out there (consumer choice at work) which he could have used over a year ago. If he did not know or understand about backup he could have posted here too etc. But, thank you David for your feedback on my repsonse to the original poster. -- Regards, Mike -- Mike Brannigan [Microsoft] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these newsgroups "David Banks" wrote in message ... Hi Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was intended I do think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the Windows product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM. All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the basics of the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have never yet had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both Microsoft and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how anybody without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the 'buck-passing' atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me. There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will probably turn out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as has been done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib answers on how stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the response by Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like it, you know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, since when has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go elsewhere' to the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a bit 'high minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that the public have of the organisation. I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing out the obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the message 'read my enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked' A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and energy) but I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then. Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program is not included on the standard XP installation!!!! I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own Customer Services Handbook:- 'Dear Neil I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex and navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be frustrating but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the answers to your questions:- links blah blah blah etc. Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope that we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very frustrating problem to you. Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any further queries or problems.' David "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message ... Neil, Comments inline -- Regards, Mike -- Mike Brannigan [Microsoft] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these newsgroups "Neil Obstat" wrote in message 48.16... Hello, Microsoft. I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I am supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless products. "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message ... Neil, Comments inline -- Regards, Mike -- Mike Brannigan [Microsoft] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these newsgroups "Neil Obstat" wrote in message 48.16... Hello, Microsoft. I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I am supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless products. This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff) Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated graphics in certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be saved to the selected location." Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with. Are you Save As. Web page complete. This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to that contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions to creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving. Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the content embedded. On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced better results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file) I have read the reason for this before, yet a search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I looked for the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what the error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to make sure I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet Explorer 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such luck. Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge base. That would be helpful. The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase. If you go to the Knowledgebase at http://support.microsoft.com/ Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base) Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search topics- enter "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing and Using ... The exact phrase entered Produces one result http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589 Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ?? Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops, hang on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d location" has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the page, no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge base, unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update that was released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original question was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I mean, I know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able to save the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it doesn't work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having broken it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had broken it, you were planning on doing anything about it. Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I found. And then I tried to ask you that. I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed to get to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at your company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved completely impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company. But because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You told me to go to Dell. As it were. The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM. It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is up to Dell to provide you with support. Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No, Dell did not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell? Dell doesn't know what you've done. Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to technical data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an OEM machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the only ones who can provide the required support. Dell do and can know "what we have done" Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux. Other people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I might've liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some such thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big game in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a deal with you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if I buy a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I would like Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I cannot get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here. You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing systems or non at all. You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they ship. See comment above about OEM support. If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements (including) choice of OS then you can go elsewhere. I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I decided to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I installed it. It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version. Meaning it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There was a rebate. It was free, after the rebate. Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM. Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At this point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, you great jolly megalith, you. I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours every damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally on a soothing screen painted all in deepest blue. Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet Explorer" (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of "Windows XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you don't offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID. But...I bought it in this country. Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once again. Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." Okay. Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ? Was it a grey import ? If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where you are.) I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went through every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the phone! That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to Dell for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool. Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel to provide the necessary support on the product. They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and also to raise bugs etc should that be needed. But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your "communities" for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full of bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like most of your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit a question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can figure out the answer to that. Do you mean here http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx or http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups. I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups. Ninety trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden, cookie- filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir, doesn't get much more modern than a newsgroup. What would you prefer? This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that the technical community operate in. Of course, fewer and fewer people are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use newsgroups. But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve technical help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or for a computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of your software. We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs provide support for their OEM supplied products. There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as advice on setting up real newsreader programs. Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour before. Elegant. Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and then may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services. The web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions. And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped! "Coming Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how to use the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to protect essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last week, when the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and take out a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable personal information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't even planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need me bothering you with my little problems. If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made no effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or otherwise) - then this is not our fault. (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive "is not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay because I'm smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing I can make my computer's life a little easier.) ok Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar references just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail account just so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the useless support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID which is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks for that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of "which of these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell us all your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to screw people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name is really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the whole world. Let's hope, anyway.) But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've taken such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me click inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You really do care! Yes - we do. Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul. Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft? Neil Obstat |
#21
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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist
"rifleman" wrote in message =
... In , David Candy typed: No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing amount of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The = sell genuine MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except the company agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A large company pays least and probably doesn't supply a disk. But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with new systems. In , David Banks typed: Hi Snip Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup = program is not included on the standard XP installation!!!! Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then? -- (I may be wrong...I usually am....) Google is your Friend Email address deliberately false to avoid spam: www.gbpcomputing.co.uk =20 Well in that case, if the OEM is Pro then backup IS installed by = default (or should be....) =20 --=20 (I may be wrong...I usually am....) Google is your Friend Email address deliberately false to avoid spam: www.gbpcomputing.co.uk You don't seem to have the idea of what an OEM XP CD is. That = particular OEM XP CD 'could' include all XP apps that are available on = the 'upgrade' or full retail version. OTOH - that particular OEM XP CD = 'could' include nothing but the 'install' files. OEMs are allowed to = include/exclude anything they like - unfortunately. Will --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.498 / Virus Database: 297 - Release Date: 08/07/2003 |
#22
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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist
Xref: kermit microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support:320724 microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics:121763 microsoft.public.win98.internet:23694
In , Will Denny typed: "rifleman" wrote in message ... In , David Candy typed: No. It depends who you buy it from. Each computer mfg pays varing amount of cash to MS. At the most expensive is small stores. The sell genuine MS OEM Disk. There is no difference to proper copies except the company agrees to support it and it will refuse to upgrade. A large company pays least and probably doesn't supply a disk. But you can buy home in a retail store. Most OSs are sold OEM with new systems. In , David Banks typed: Hi Snip Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program is not included on the standard XP installation!!!! Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then? -- (I may be wrong...I usually am....) Google is your Friend Email address deliberately false to avoid spam: www.gbpcomputing.co.uk Well in that case, if the OEM is Pro then backup IS installed by default (or should be....) -- (I may be wrong...I usually am....) Google is your Friend Email address deliberately false to avoid spam: www.gbpcomputing.co.uk You don't seem to have the idea of what an OEM XP CD is. That particular OEM XP CD 'could' include all XP apps that are available on the 'upgrade' or full retail version. OTOH - that particular OEM XP CD 'could' include nothing but the 'install' files. OEMs are allowed to include/exclude anything they like - unfortunately. Will --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.498 / Virus Database: 297 - Release Date: 08/07/2003 I'd be very surprised if vendor would dig around deep enough to remove the backup utility - unless they also sell backup solutions ;-) -- (I may be wrong...I usually am....) Google is your Friend Email address deliberately false to avoid spam: www.gbpcomputing.co.uk |
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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist
"David Banks" wrote in message ... I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own Customer Services Handbook:- 'Dear Neil I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex and navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be frustrating but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the answers to your questions:- links blah blah blah etc. Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope that we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very frustrating problem to you. Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any further queries or problems.' David Let me assure you that that sort of prepackaged PR drivel is JUST as frustrating as the runaround the OP describes. Mike gave a direct answer to both the OP's hostility (understandable given MS's and OEM's lack of any real help) and to his problems. Seems like a perfectly good post to me. |
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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist
"rifleman" wrote in message ... In , David Banks typed: Hi Snip Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program is not included on the standard XP installation!!!! Are all OEM installations XP Home edition then? Not necessarily. However, on my e-machine OEM XP install there IS no backup function, it's not included! -- (I may be wrong...I usually am....) Google is your Friend Email address deliberately false to avoid spam: www.gbpcomputing.co.uk |
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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist
"Kadaitcha Man" wrote in message = r.org... Ted" """""""""""""" wrote: Gently on maybe one account, but not on the MS/MVP supporters like the bint "Amethyst", who has no problem railing the meekest of help seekers to becoming "mindless PC ****cases"! At least Mike just tells them they are basically stuck in a "****case"! "Don't forget that the imaginary personality Amethyst projects into = these groups is the only one she has." LOL! How could we? The **** remind us all of that trait she has, ad nauseam! |
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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist
Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and have every
maker include a full CD. Testy "David Banks" wrote in message ... Hi Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was intended I do think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the Windows product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM. All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the basics of the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have never yet had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both Microsoft and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how anybody without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the 'buck-passing' atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me. There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will probably turn out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as has been done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib answers on how stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the response by Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like it, you know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, since when has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go elsewhere' to the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a bit 'high minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that the public have of the organisation. I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing out the obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the message 'read my enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked' A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and energy) but I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then. Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program is not included on the standard XP installation!!!! I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own Customer Services Handbook:- 'Dear Neil I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex and navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be frustrating but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the answers to your questions:- links blah blah blah etc. Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope that we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very frustrating problem to you. Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any further queries or problems.' David "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message ... Neil, Comments inline -- Regards, Mike -- Mike Brannigan [Microsoft] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these newsgroups "Neil Obstat" wrote in message 48.16... Hello, Microsoft. I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I am supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless products. "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message ... Neil, Comments inline -- Regards, Mike -- Mike Brannigan [Microsoft] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these newsgroups "Neil Obstat" wrote in message 48.16... Hello, Microsoft. I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I am supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless products. This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff) Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated graphics in certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be saved to the selected location." Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with. Are you Save As. Web page complete. This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to that contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions to creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving. Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the content embedded. On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced better results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file) I have read the reason for this before, yet a search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I looked for the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what the error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to make sure I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet Explorer 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such luck. Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge base. That would be helpful. The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase. If you go to the Knowledgebase at http://support.microsoft.com/ Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base) Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search topics- enter "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing and Using ... The exact phrase entered Produces one result http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589 Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ?? Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops, hang on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d location" has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the page, no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge base, unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update that was released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original question was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I mean, I know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able to save the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it doesn't work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having broken it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had broken it, you were planning on doing anything about it. Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I found. And then I tried to ask you that. I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed to get to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at your company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved completely impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company. But because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You told me to go to Dell. As it were. The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM. It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is up to Dell to provide you with support. Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No, Dell did not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell? Dell doesn't know what you've done. Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to technical data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an OEM machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the only ones who can provide the required support. Dell do and can know "what we have done" Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux. Other people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I might've liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some such thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big game in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a deal with you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if I buy a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I would like Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I cannot get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here. You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing systems or non at all. You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they ship. See comment above about OEM support. If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements (including) choice of OS then you can go elsewhere. I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I decided to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I installed it. It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version. Meaning it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There was a rebate. It was free, after the rebate. Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM. Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At this point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, you great jolly megalith, you. I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours every damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally on a soothing screen painted all in deepest blue. Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet Explorer" (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of "Windows XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you don't offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID. But...I bought it in this country. Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once again. Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." Okay. Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ? Was it a grey import ? If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where you are.) I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went through every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the phone! That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to Dell for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool. Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel to provide the necessary support on the product. They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and also to raise bugs etc should that be needed. But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your "communities" for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full of bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like most of your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit a question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can figure out the answer to that. Do you mean here http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx or http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups. I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups. Ninety trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden, cookie- filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir, doesn't get much more modern than a newsgroup. What would you prefer? This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that the technical community operate in. Of course, fewer and fewer people are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use newsgroups. But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve technical help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or for a computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of your software. We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs provide support for their OEM supplied products. There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as advice on setting up real newsreader programs. Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour before. Elegant. Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and then may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services. The web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions. And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped! "Coming Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how to use the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to protect essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last week, when the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and take out a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable personal information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't even planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need me bothering you with my little problems. If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made no effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or otherwise) - then this is not our fault. (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive "is not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay because I'm smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing I can make my computer's life a little easier.) ok Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar references just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail account just so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the useless support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID which is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks for that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of "which of these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell us all your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to screw people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name is really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the whole world. Let's hope, anyway.) But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've taken such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me click inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You really do care! Yes - we do. Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul. Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft? Neil Obstat --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 7/10/2003 |
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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist
You don't seem to have the idea of what an OEM XP CD is. That
particular OEM XP CD 'could' include all XP apps that are available on the 'upgrade' or full retail version. OTOH - that particular OEM XP CD 'could' include nothing but the 'install' files. OEMs are allowed to include/exclude anything they like - unfortunately. Will I'd be very surprised if vendor would dig around deep enough to remove = the backup utility - unless they also sell backup solutions ;-) I'm never surprised as to what some of these OEMs do!!!! Will --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.498 / Virus Database: 297 - Release Date: 08/07/2003 |
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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist
A very good idea, Testy, but I'm not sure that MS would agree to that - =
a lot of cash can be generated by OEMs. MS, as any other, business has = to make money... They are just about to allocate $10B dollars (US) to = their share holders... Will "Testy" wrote in message = .. . Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and have = every maker include a full CD. =20 Testy =20 "David Banks" wrote in message ... Hi Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was = intended I do think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the = Windows product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM. All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the = basics of the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have = never yet had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both = Microsoft and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how = anybody without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the 'buck-passing' atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me. There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will = probably turn out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as = has been done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib = answers on how stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the = response by Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like it, = you know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, = since when has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go = elsewhere' to the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a = bit 'high minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that = the public have of the organisation. I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing out = the obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the message = 'read my enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked' A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and = energy) but I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then. Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program = is not included on the standard XP installation!!!! I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my = own Customer Services Handbook:- 'Dear Neil I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the information you require. The Windows operating system is very = complex and navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be frustrating but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the = answers to your questions:- links blah blah blah etc. Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and = hope that we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very = frustrating problem to you. Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any = further queries or problems.' David "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in = message ... Neil, Comments inline -- Regards, Mike -- Mike Brannigan [Microsoft] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers = no rights Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use = these newsgroups "Neil Obstat" = wrote in message 48.16... Hello, Microsoft. I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the = hell I am supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, = worthless products. "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in = message ... Neil, Comments inline -- Regards, Mike -- Mike Brannigan [Microsoft] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers = no rights Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use = these newsgroups "Neil Obstat" = wrote in message 48.16... Hello, Microsoft. I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the = hell I am supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, = worthless products. This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to = provide support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff) Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated graphics in certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be = saved to the selected location." Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with. Are you Save As. Web page complete. This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are = saving to that contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have = permissions to creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving. Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with = all the content embedded. On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced better results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single = file) I have read the reason for this before, yet a search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I looked for the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of = what the error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked = to make sure I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be = present SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet Explorer 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such = luck. Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your = knowledge base. That would be helpful. The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase. If you go to the Knowledgebase at http://support.microsoft.com/ Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base) Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft = Search topics- enter "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution = containing and Using ... The exact phrase entered Produces one result http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=3D235589 Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you = ?? Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The = "selecte(oops, hang on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE = I WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, = Microsoft!)d location" has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save = the page, no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your = knowledge base, unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update = that was released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my = original question was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I = mean, I know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being = able to save the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But = it doesn't work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, = having broken it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had = broken it, you were planning on doing anything about it. Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article = I found. And then I tried to ask you that. I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm = supposed to get to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative = at your company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved completely impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine = company. But because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. = You told me to go to Dell. As it were. The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM. It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it = is up to Dell to provide you with support. Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? = No, Dell did not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask = Dell? Dell doesn't know what you've done. Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to technical data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is = an OEM machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are = the only ones who can provide the required support. Dell do and can know "what we have done" Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like = Linux. Other people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I might've liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or = some such thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the = big game in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a = deal with you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, = but something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. = So if I buy a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I = would like Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that = way, I cannot get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here. You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing systems or non at all. You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs = they ship. See comment above about OEM support. If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements (including) choice of OS then you can go elsewhere. I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So = I decided to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I = installed it. It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM = version. Meaning it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. = There was a rebate. It was free, after the rebate. Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product =3D support = by OEM. Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. = At this point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any = sense of responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the = world, you great jolly megalith, you. I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at = yours every damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or = occasionally on a soothing screen painted all in deepest blue. Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet = Explorer" (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of "Windows XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, = please)...you don't offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID. But...I bought it in this country. Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once = again. Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." = Okay. Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you = reside ? Was it a grey import ? If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a = problem (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state = where you are.) I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I = went through every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on = the phone! That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go = to Dell for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool. Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their = machines and possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support = personnel to provide the necessary support on the product. They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve = and also to raise bugs etc should that be needed. But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your "communities" for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page = full of bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. = Like most of your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to = submit a question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you = can figure out the answer to that. Do you mean here http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx or http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups. I mean, there was a little bit of information on your = newsgroups. Ninety trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, = script-ridden, cookie- filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir, doesn't get much more modern than a newsgroup. What would you prefer? This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community = that the technical community operate in. Of course, fewer and fewer people are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use newsgroups. But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve technical help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, = or for a computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of = your software. We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs provide support for their OEM supplied products. There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as = well as advice on setting up real newsreader programs. Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP = Support Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an = hour before. Elegant. Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes = and then may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support = services. The web is not a linear construct people enter from various = directions. And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped! "Coming Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains = how to use the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools = to protect essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last = week, when the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south = and take out a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, = irreplaceable personal information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I = hadn't even planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't = need me bothering you with my little problems. If you have lost a significant amount of important data because = you made no effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software = (backup or otherwise) - then this is not our fault. (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the = drive "is not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay because I'm smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like = knowing I can make my computer's life a little easier.) ok Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, = you certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar references just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you = won't support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail = account just so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at = the useless support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport = ID which is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. = Thanks for that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of = "which of these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please = tell us all your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one = with "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use = that to screw people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my = name is really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in = the whole world. Let's hope, anyway.) But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad = you've taken such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have = me click inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. = You really do care! Yes - we do. Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very = soul. Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft? Neil Obstat =20 =20 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 7/10/2003 =20 =20 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.498 / Virus Database: 297 - Release Date: 08/07/2003 |
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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist
"Testy" wrote in message
.. . Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and have every maker include a full CD. Testy, Is that just force the OEM to provide a full white box disk OEM CD ROM; or end the whole program of OEM product requiring OEM support and actually ship a Retail CD? If the later - would the market stand the increase in cost (passed onto the consumer) for the support of all those millions and millions of OEM customers now having to come to Microsoft ? If just force the OEM CD ROM in the package with the PC - then interesting idea. -- Regards, Mike -- Mike Brannigan [Microsoft] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these newsgroups "Testy" wrote in message .. . Personally I think it is time to discontinue the OEM program and have every maker include a full CD. Testy "David Banks" wrote in message ... Hi Whilst I read Neil's message with the obvious humour that was intended I do think it generally reflects the 'mood' of anybody who has the Windows product 'thrust upon them', particularly if it is from an OEM. All OEM support personnel that I have encountered only know the basics of the systems they are supposed to be knowledgeable of and I have never yet had a satisfactory outcome from any support line in the UK. Both Microsoft and Siemens and Comet in the UK shove you from pillar to post, how anybody without tenacity can ever get a problem fixed in the 'buck-passing' atmosphere that originates at Microsoft beats me. There are a lot of people with 'smart' answers and they will probably turn out to be right and gently 'ridicule' the originators message (as has been done in this case), but please, Microsoft, giving smart, glib answers on how stupid an enquirer is (this is the impression I get from the response by Mike) does not endear us to you. Answers like 'if you don't like it, you know what you can do' are not in my Customer Services handbook, since when has Microsoft had that view ;-))))) To suggest that we can 'go elsewhere' to the average computer buyer with little knowledge of computing is a bit 'high minded' of you and again only reflects the general perception that the public have of the organisation. I always get some smart person replying to my enquiries pointing out the obvious, I just get fed up of writing back to them with the message 'read my enquiry again, you have not answered the question I asked' A message for Neil, give it up mate, your wasting your time (and energy) but I know it feels good to 'blow off steam' every now and then. Also to suggest the use of backup is laughable, the backup program is not included on the standard XP installation!!!! I am very troubled by Mike's reply and have re-written it using my own Customer Services Handbook:- 'Dear Neil I am sorry that you are experiencing difficulties in obtaining the information you require. The Windows operating system is very complex and navigating the knowledge bases' and help files can sometimes be frustrating but please persevere. Here are the links where you will find the answers to your questions:- links blah blah blah etc. Thankyou for contacting Microsdfoft, we welcome all feedback and hope that we have gone some way to alleviating what is obviously a very frustrating problem to you. Please do not hesitate to contact us on blah blah if you have any further queries or problems.' David "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message ... Neil, Comments inline -- Regards, Mike -- Mike Brannigan [Microsoft] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these newsgroups "Neil Obstat" wrote in message 48.16... Hello, Microsoft. I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I am supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless products. "Mike Brannigan [MSFT]" wrote in message ... Neil, Comments inline -- Regards, Mike -- Mike Brannigan [Microsoft] This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights Please note I cannot respond to e-mailed questions, please use these newsgroups "Neil Obstat" wrote in message 48.16... Hello, Microsoft. I have just wasted about an hour trying to figure out how the hell I am supposed to ask you a question about one of your filthy, worthless products. This is not a statement that is condusive to those who may to provide support (particularly if they are Microsoft staff) Internet Explorer will not save a web page with its associated graphics in certain instances. Instead, it says "The web page could not be saved to the selected location." Can you please supply which pages you are having problems with. Are you Save As. Web page complete. This creates an addtional folder below the locvation you are saving to that contains additional files (graphics etc). Ensure you have permissions to creat this addtional folder for the page you are Saving. Also try the Save As single file. This produces a MHT file with all the content embedded. On the sites I have tried this on the Save As single file produced better results (www.ibm.com was one test that worked better as single file) I have read the reason for this before, yet a search about--that's right--an hour ago turned up no results. I looked for the phrase "to the selected location." I mean, that's part of what the error message says. It uses those very words. I even checked to make sure I spelled it exactly right. Seems like that text would be present SOMEWHERE in your knowledge base, under the section for Internet Explorer 6, the program that gives me the error message. Nope. No such luck. Apparently your error messages do not coordinate with your knowledge base. That would be helpful. The text DOES exist in the Knowledgebase. If you go to the Knowledgebase at http://support.microsoft.com/ Clcik the link for Search our Technical Database (Knowledge Base) Just leave the Select your Product as the default - All Microsoft Search topics- enter "The web page could not be saved to " in to the For Solution containing and Using ... The exact phrase entered Produces one result http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=235589 Which conatins the error exactly as stated. Is it relevent to you ?? Never mind the message is, itself, not helpful. The "selecte(oops, hang on, Outlook just popped its reminder window up in my face WHILE I WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF TYPING THIS. I love when you do that, Microsoft!)d location" has nothing to do with the error. No matter where I try to save the page, no luck. I believe, from what I read before (from your knowledge base, unless I am greatly mistaken) that this has to do with an update that was released at some point for Internet Explorer. I guess my original question was, are you going to get around to fixing this at any point? I mean, I know you know the problem exists. It is a nice feature, being able to save the occasional web page, with its graphics intact and all. But it doesn't work with some pages, and I guess I'd just like to know if, having broken it, and (at one time, anyway) having acknowledged that you had broken it, you were planning on doing anything about it. Which pages are problematic and are any releated to the KB article I found. And then I tried to ask you that. I went to your support page. I went to the part where I'm supposed to get to ask you a question. But as every single technical operative at your company is more important than the Wizard of Oz, this proved completely impossible. I bought my computer from Dell. Dell's a fine company. But because I did that, you won't let me ask you about the product. You told me to go to Dell. As it were. The support for OEM products is the responsibility of the OEM. It is a DELL machine with an OEM version of Windows XP on it - it is up to Dell to provide you with support. Yes, but...Dell didn't write the offending program, did Dell? No, Dell did not. You did. You wrote it, and you broke it. So why ask Dell? Dell doesn't know what you've done. Dell are fully trained in the support of the OS and have access to technical data that Microsoft support personnel do. In addition since it is an OEM machine and OS Dell may have modified the system and as such are the only ones who can provide the required support. Dell do and can know "what we have done" Do you know, I might've liked to have tried something like Linux. Other people do still make operating systems out there, don't they? I might've liked a blank, fresh system I could put a Linux or a Unix or some such thing on, but I bought a computer from Dell and since you're the big game in town I have to buy your software with the system. Dell has a deal with you. Dell paid something for that software, maybe not retail, but something. I'm sure they're not giving it to me for nothing. So if I buy a computer from Dell--or almost anyone else--I'm not asked if I would like Windows, I have to buy Windows. But if I do buy Windows that way, I cannot get support for it. I'm beginning to feel a mite screwed, here. You can purchase a device from other vendors with other opertaing systems or non at all. You chose Dell and Dell supply Windows XP as an OEM product on PCs they ship. See comment above about OEM support. If Dell will not supply you a PC configured to your requirements (including) choice of OS then you can go elsewhere. I tried entering the Product ID, and was told to go to Dell. So I decided to improvise. I dug out a 3 year old copy of Encarta, and I installed it. It's the only software of yours I have that isn't an OEM version. Meaning it's the only thing made by you I've EVER CHOSEN to purchase. There was a rebate. It was free, after the rebate. Correct - I feel I am repeating myself - OEM product = support by OEM. Having installed Encarta 2000, I got the Product ID from that. At this point, I just sort of wanted to ask if your company had any sense of responsibility whatsoever for what you have wrought on the world, you great jolly megalith, you. I want you to have to read my words, because I have to look at yours every damn day. Generally in some sort of error dialog. Or occasionally on a soothing screen painted all in deepest blue. Went back. Chose "Encarta" for product instead of "Internet Explorer" (wait, no, that wasn't an option on the list--I mean instead of "Windows XP"). Typed in the Product ID. Was told (drumroll, please)...you don't offer support IN THIS COUNTRY for that Product ID. But...I bought it in this country. Checked that I had typed it in correctly. I had. Checked once again. Yep. Cleaned my glasses. Hmm...still says "in this country." Okay. Did you purchase your copy of Encarta in the country where you reside ? Was it a grey import ? If you have a USA Encarta and are in the USA then we may have a problem (please note the use of USA is just an example,as you do not state where you are.) I could bore you with all the details of what I tried then. I went through every support option you offer. Hey, for $245 I can call you on the phone! That's pretty sweet. I could pay $245 to hear you tell me to go to Dell for support on a product YOU wrote and published. Cool. Yes - we wrote it and supplied it to Dell to OEM onto their machines and possibly modify or augment. They then trained the support personnel to provide the necessary support on the product. They also have routes back into us for issues they cannot resolve and also to raise bugs etc should that be needed. But I'll skip right to the part where I went to one of your "communities" for support. That's where I found a really neat-o looking page full of bright, shiny graphics. Looked a lot like an advertisement. Like most of your products do, these days. Did I see any place for me to submit a question for the consideration of the "community?" I bet you can figure out the answer to that. Do you mean here http://support.microsoft.com/newsgroups/default.aspx or http://www.microsoft.com/communities/default.mspx Both result in Web based access to these newsgroups. I mean, there was a little bit of information on your newsgroups. Ninety trillion dollars you must've spent on that bloated, script-ridden, cookie- filled web page, and you send people to the newsgroups. Yessir, doesn't get much more modern than a newsgroup. What would you prefer? This is the most ubiquitous form of peer to peer support community that the technical community operate in. Of course, fewer and fewer people are familiar with the technology and etiquette required to use newsgroups. But then, those ignorant, easily discouraged peons don't deserve technical help, do they? They only shelled out money for your software, or for a computer which came with mandatorily-installed copies of some of your software. We offer technical support as detailed for retail customers. OEMs provide support for their OEM supplied products. There is no technology required - we offer a Web interface; as well as advice on setting up real newsreader programs. Also on the "communities" page was a link called "Windows XP Support Center," which lead right back to where I had started from an hour before. Elegant. Yes - since some people arrive at the communities via other routes and then may want to search the knowledgebase or access other support services. The web is not a linear construct people enter from various directions. And hey, look--there's also a forthcoming article being hyped! "Coming Next Week: Award-winning computer journalist Ed Bott explains how to use the Backup utility in Windows XP and third-party back up tools to protect essential data." Well, that would have been useful before last week, when the partition table on my main data drive decided to go south and take out a year's worth of projects for school and some nice, irreplaceable personal information. So, I guess thanks for that, too. I mean, I hadn't even planned on mentioning that to you. You're busy, and you don't need me bothering you with my little problems. If you have lost a significant amount of important data because you made no effort to protect it through the use of appropriate software (backup or otherwise) - then this is not our fault. (Windows has been kind enough to inform me ever since that the drive "is not formatted," which is not strictly accurate, but that's okay because I'm smart enough to figure out the real problem myself. I like knowing I can make my computer's life a little easier.) ok Of course, while you may not need me bugging you with questions, you certainly do need me to submit a quart of blood and 35 stellar references just so I can get to the point of typing in a Product ID you won't support...in this country. I had to create a stinking Hotmail account just so I'd have a lousy Passport ID so I could even take a look at the useless support page that wound up helping me not one whit. (A Passport ID which is now linked to my user account on this computer. Super. Thanks for that.) That, of course, involved trudging through 15 pages of "which of these newsletters would you like to subscribe to" and "please tell us all your hobbies." So I can get an email account. (But not one with "Microsoft" or "Bill Gates" in the name--I guess I could use that to screw people, and that job's been filled already. That, or else my name is really William Gates, although surely there could only be one in the whole world. Let's hope, anyway.) But, the delay of wading through those forms aside, I'm glad you've taken such a profound interest in me as a person that you would have me click inside little square boxes in order that you may learn about the intricacies that make up my fascinating and variegated life. You really do care! Yes - we do. Or else you're the devil, and you're trying to steal my very soul. Have I mentioned lately how much I hate you, Microsoft? Neil Obstat --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.500 / Virus Database: 298 - Release Date: 7/10/2003 |
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An open letter to Microsoft's support personnel, should they exist
Will Denny wrote:
Hi Cass I've stopped my attacks on MVPs - perhaps you could lower you language a tad. Will Sorry Will? AFAIK, I wasn't attacking an MVP - I was attacking the moron who sent the original rant (which didn't appear on my server) not Mike who's a really good guy (rather like yourself) - there was no way I was attacking him and I apologise to him unreservedly if he took it that way... Cass -- Cassandra Card carrying member of the Fresh Start Club 'The Undead Are People Too!' Reply address is fake. Please send all praise, abuse, insults, bequests of £1million to cassandra (at) craigy34 (dot) freeserve (dot) co (dot) uk. Change the obvious to the obvious. Private requests for assistance will not be acknowledged. Please post all correspondence to the group so that all may benefit. Thank you. |
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