Classic Shell

On 10/5/2013 1:48 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
Alias wrote:
On 10/4/2013 5:23 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2013 22:30:14 +0100, Ed Cryer
wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2013 19:42:00 +0100, Ed Cryer
wrote:

He's not throwing stones; he's teaching.
What are you going to tell kids? "Well, it's wrong to steal; except
maybe in circumstance A or possibly a combination of circumstance B
with
C (provided that circumstances T and Y have previously occurred)."
No! You teach them the moral normative rule. "It's wrong to steal".

And why do you do that? Because kids come out of the womb knowing no
better. And if you don't teach them otherwise they'll steal and
kill and
create a hell on Earth. Little gangster babies, feeding their needs
with
antisocial and criminal behaviour.

Just within the past month or so I saw a documentary where they used
2-month
old babies to determine the relative roles of nature versus nurture
when it
comes to good and bad behavior, being able to choose one over the
other and
being able to recognize it in others. Take it with a grain of salt,
but they
concluded that babies are born with morals and a sense of right and
wrong.

Like I say, take it with a grain of salt, but if correct, we aren't
raising
little gangsters. Wish I had a link. Anyone else see it?


I didn't see it, but I do hope you're right. Man, that would really
give
me a boost.
I've found this;
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50151800n

If that's it, say yes and I'll watch it.

Yes, that's the one I was thinking of.


Fascinating. That's going to cause some stir. It runs against so many
previous conclusions from research, and a vast history of philosophy and
religion.
I guess the "scientific method" comes into play here; especially the
"replication" requirement. That'll take time.

There's a follow-up to the video here;
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_1...e-is-watching/



There might be in that some insight into why Net piracy is so prevalent;
nobody (apparently) watching.

I've just looked on one piracy download site, specifically at one copy
of "Total War ROME II-RELOADED"
seeders: 2797
leechers: 1371

It shows "Added on Sep 3, 2013 by Mr.Stiffy in Games PC
Torrent verified. Downloaded 23,393 times.

Sheesh! I think it must be a very wide-spread phenomenon. Maybe Alias is
doing us a favour with his passionate and candid lack of hypocrisy. He's
showing us a very commonly held set of justifications.

Incidentally, that game retails at 29.99 British pounds sterling.

Ed



Check it when a famous singer's album comes out.


What strikes me about it is how easy it is.You go to a website, do a
search, download it.

You also need a program like Deluge or BitTorrent to do the download. I
prefer Deluge.

There's no sense of criminality on the website
either. People discuss the quality of the material with all the air of
innocence that you might find in a good club; they give videos ratings,
discuss the games, talk about where the best version is available.
And it's done in such large numbers.

Yep.


It's obvious that most of the clients don't think like me. Me, I ask
about where in the cinema the webcam was placed, who bought or stole the
video and uploaded it etc.
But it sure doesn't feel like a criminal fraternity.

In most countries, it isn't.

Imagine if somebody stole a pile of Levi jeans and stood in a town
square giving them away to any passer-by that wanted them. You'd see the
criminality there, and you'd feel it; the cowering body-language, the
shifty exchanges, the careful looking all around.

I think a lot of people have socio-political justification for what they
do. In the same way that they'd speak up for Julian Assange or Bradley
Manning, or against GW Bush and Tony Blair for having conned us into
going to war. It's them and us; the haves and the have-nots; the
power-brokers who abuse it v. the poor abused. They see themselves as
combating a corrupt system, on the side of humanity and democracy.

Ed


Exactly.

--
Alias

The only real problems are avarice, anger and stupidity.

On 10/4/13 4:58 AM, Alias wrote:
On 10/4/2013 5:37 AM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/3/13 5:20 PM, Alias wrote:
On 10/3/2013 11:22 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
Alias wrote:
On 10/3/2013 8:13 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2013 14:54:49 +0200, Alias wrote:

But
we know you appear to be a thief.


No, it's legal and not theft to use a copy of software, music or
videos
where I live. I am not depriving the owners of their software. They
still have it and no one stole it from them. Can we add logic
impaired
to your naivety?

You *are* denying the creator of the software income from his
software.


You are assuming it would be bought if the only way to get it was to
pay.


You're assuming that the one who steals it doesn't want it; and that
makes him a mindless thief.

Ed


No, can't afford it. Not Start8, of course, but Photoshop or Creative
Suite is priced in the hundreds and if someone wanted to pull himself
out of poverty by using those programs along with some other pricey
programs like Office, you would throw that person in jail and feel all
"moral" about it.

These days, you don't have to use those programs. There are plenty of
open source programs that can be used instead.

Gimp and Libre Office are not the same.

Why not? They do the same functions as the high dollar items.


I guess, if you were in that position, you would rather steal than use
something legal.

In Spain, it isn't stealing.

Once again, in case you don't understand, we are not discussing the
legality, we are discussing if the situation is stealing/theft.


Want something else to chew on? In Spain, any theft, real theft, less
than 400 Euros is not a crime. That's about 600 USD. In the states, if
someone stole because they were poor and hungry, they would be thrown
into one of the worst prison systems in the world and their life would
basically be over. How moral is that?

Really scraping the bottom of the barrel now. I'm sure the jails of
places like China, Iran, Venezuela, and untold others are far worse than
in the US.

The jails in the USA are mostly private now where it behooves the
jailors to make sure all the prisoners stay as long as possible. A judge
was convicted of making money sending folks to jail. Rape in US jails is
a problem along with overcrowding, draconian sentences and, my favorite:
the barbaric death penalty. Yeah, the US is right there with China, Iran
and Venezuela although in Venezuela they have conjugal rights, unlike
the USA.

As for Spain, just how good is their economy?

Thanks to the bankers, Wall Street and crooked politicians, the economy
is struggling.

You do have to have a society where people believe in working for what
they receive, not expect someone to provide it. Some group help is
good, but go to far, and too few are paying the bills.

How many people there
have lost income because of your viewpoint?

None.

You know this how? Support that statement.

I suspect if you were in
the position of losing income because of that law, you would be unhappy.



Windows was and is the software that is stolen the most. Last I checked,
Microsoft is not out of business.

That does not make it right.

"If they are going to steal software, I want them to steal mine", Bill
Gates.

If I were a writer of software and no one wanted to steal it, I would be
disappointed.

Which probably means no one wants to buy it, either.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.0.4

On 10/5/2013 2:05 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/3/13 7:00 AM, Alias wrote:
On 10/3/2013 2:46 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/3/13 3:49 AM, Alias wrote:
On 10/3/2013 1:31 AM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/2/13 5:12 PM, Alias wrote:
On 10/2/2013 7:52 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/2/13 11:14 AM, Alias wrote:
On 10/2/2013 6:23 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/2/13 10:06 AM, Alias wrote:
On 10/2/2013 5:49 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/2/13 8:51 AM, Alias wrote:
On 10/2/2013 4:12 PM, Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
On Wed, 02 Oct 2013 08:00:38 -0600, "Ken Springer"
wrote in article l2h8u3$52r$1
@speranza.aioe.org...

On 10/2/13 5:00 AM, Ron wrote:
On 10/2/2013 3:42 AM, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message ,
Ken
Blake
writes
On Mon, 30 Sep 2013 03:35:15 -0400, Ron

wrote:

On 8/26/2013 5:06 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Mon, 26 Aug 2013 03:35:01 -0500, CRNG

wrote:

snip

As far as I'm concerned, $4.99 is close enough to free. I
don't
mind
paying for it.

If you've found it for free, care to share?

snip pirate link

So, you believe in stealing?????

And for a measly $5 even.


Petty theft, a misdemeanor in the USA. Course, some countries
like
Spain
have laws that if it's for personal use and not for profit,
downloading
from The Pirate Bay is completely legal and not considered
theft.
You do
know that this group can be accessed by folks not in the USA
or do
you?

I do, but taking something that doesn't belong to you is still
theft, no
matter how small.



It's only theft if the law says it's theft. Ask MS and Apple what
they
took from Xerox. Did they activate before using what they took?

Negative, sir. If you have morals, and live by them, it's
theft. The
law just provides consequences acceptable to the majority of
society.



Give me a ****ing break and get off your high moral horse. No one
steals, right? Not Wall Street, not the politicians, the oil
companies,
the banks?

Because someone else steals, that means you should? Some people
slash
tires, should you? Or be like that motorcycle group in New York?

Got anything you want me to steal from you??




Have you been this naive all your life?

Have you been a thief all your life?



Using a copy of someone's software is legal here if you don't make
money
off of it.

Where is here? People reading this do not know where you are.

I already posted that I live in Spain.


The music, software and film industries have taken it to
court here many times and lost every time. So, are you calling all the
judges facilitators of theft?

Legally, apparently, no. Morally, yes.

"Morally" is a subjective judgment and has no bearing.


If someone were to steal your car, you
would be without a car. If someone were to "steal" a copy of your car,
you'd still have a car.

But you can't copy a car. You have to buy the parts to build another
one. That is not the same as using something that came from someone's
brain.

The owner of the software still has the software. No one stole it from
him or her.


Copying and using software falls in the same category as plagiarism. A
product born from someone's mind.

Check definition #2 he

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/steal?s=t&path=/

I am not stealing the idea and saying it's my idea.


Since you brought up a biblical reference in message
, how about the Sixth
Commandment, "Thou Shalt Not Steal"?

I'm not stealing.


From your comments, it sounds like you don't care if people steal from
you. Do you?


If I wrote software I would agree with Bill Gates who said, "If they are
going to steal software, I want them to steal mine". You can bet your
ass that software writers check The Pirate Bay to see how well their
software is doing.

Whether or not someone wants you to steal it is not the question.

The question is, are you a thief if you do? Which you have tacitly
agreed with when you say you want people to steal your product.

That being the case, why not let me take $5 from your wallet every day?
And I'll give it to charity. Under your definition, since I'm not
making money or profit, I'm not a thief.



I suggest you take a course in logic.

--
Alias

The only real problems are avarice, anger and stupidity.

On 10/5/2013 2:13 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/4/13 4:58 AM, Alias wrote:
On 10/4/2013 5:37 AM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/3/13 5:20 PM, Alias wrote:
On 10/3/2013 11:22 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
Alias wrote:
On 10/3/2013 8:13 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2013 14:54:49 +0200, Alias wrote:

But
we know you appear to be a thief.


No, it's legal and not theft to use a copy of software, music or
videos
where I live. I am not depriving the owners of their software. They
still have it and no one stole it from them. Can we add logic
impaired
to your naivety?

You *are* denying the creator of the software income from his
software.


You are assuming it would be bought if the only way to get it was to
pay.


You're assuming that the one who steals it doesn't want it; and that
makes him a mindless thief.

Ed


No, can't afford it. Not Start8, of course, but Photoshop or Creative
Suite is priced in the hundreds and if someone wanted to pull himself
out of poverty by using those programs along with some other pricey
programs like Office, you would throw that person in jail and feel all
"moral" about it.

These days, you don't have to use those programs. There are plenty of
open source programs that can be used instead.

Gimp and Libre Office are not the same.

Why not? They do the same functions as the high dollar items.

No, they don't. Gimp is, well, crippled compared to Photo Shop and Libre
Office has no email program and the rest of it can't compare to MS Office.



I guess, if you were in that position, you would rather steal than use
something legal.

In Spain, it isn't stealing.

Once again, in case you don't understand, we are not discussing the
legality, we are discussing if the situation is stealing/theft.

The judges in Spain say it isn't. You on your high moral horse want me
to accept your opinion as fact and that ain't happening.



Want something else to chew on? In Spain, any theft, real theft, less
than 400 Euros is not a crime. That's about 600 USD. In the states, if
someone stole because they were poor and hungry, they would be thrown
into one of the worst prison systems in the world and their life would
basically be over. How moral is that?

Really scraping the bottom of the barrel now. I'm sure the jails of
places like China, Iran, Venezuela, and untold others are far worse than
in the US.

The jails in the USA are mostly private now where it behooves the
jailors to make sure all the prisoners stay as long as possible. A judge
was convicted of making money sending folks to jail. Rape in US jails is
a problem along with overcrowding, draconian sentences and, my favorite:
the barbaric death penalty. Yeah, the US is right there with China, Iran
and Venezuela although in Venezuela they have conjugal rights, unlike
the USA.

Hello?


As for Spain, just how good is their economy?

Thanks to the bankers, Wall Street and crooked politicians, the economy
is struggling.

You do have to have a society where people believe in working for what
they receive, not expect someone to provide it. Some group help is
good, but go to far, and too few are paying the bills.

Do you have a point here? I fail to see what it has to do with what I wrote.


How many people there
have lost income because of your viewpoint?

None.

You know this how? Support that statement.


If it were widespread, it would have hit the media already.


I suspect if you were in
the position of losing income because of that law, you would be unhappy.



Windows was and is the software that is stolen the most. Last I checked,
Microsoft is not out of business.

That does not make it right.

"Right" is a moral judgment. You made that judgment. It is NOT fact.


"If they are going to steal software, I want them to steal mine", Bill
Gates.

If I were a writer of software and no one wanted to steal it, I would be
disappointed.

Which probably means no one wants to buy it, either.




Correct.

--
Alias

The only real problems are avarice, anger and stupidity.

On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 06:13:54 -0600, Ken Springer wrote:

Once again, in case you don't understand, we are not discussing the
legality, we are discussing if the situation is stealing/theft.

1. For goodness sake, Ken, learn how to trim replies to posts!
Wading through six or seven levels of quotes is such a pain. Have
some pity on the readers!

2. Theft is a legal term, it's already established that theft is not
involved here.

3. Calling someone a thief on here is a libel. That isn't a crime
either but you can be sued for it.

On 05 Oct 2013, mechanic wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-8:

2. Theft is a legal term, it's already established that theft is not
involved here.

"Theft" is not only a legal term. We're talking about the common usage.

3. Calling someone a thief on here is a libel. That isn't a crime
either but you can be sued for it.

You can be sued for just about any trivial complaint. That doesn't mean
it's valid or justified.

On 10/5/13 7:54 AM, mechanic wrote:
On Sat, 05 Oct 2013 06:13:54 -0600, Ken Springer wrote:

Once again, in case you don't understand, we are not discussing the
legality, we are discussing if the situation is stealing/theft.

1. For goodness sake, Ken, learn how to trim replies to posts!
Wading through six or seven levels of quotes is such a pain. Have
some pity on the readers!

My apologies to you and the other readers for not trimming. I usually
do trim, but I simply did not have the time, and have less time now.
Most of the time, I simply marked Alias's posts to reply to later.

And I have even less time now, so Alias has gone from low priority to no
priority. G

Ken Blake's comment of him being a troll is probably accurate. I think
Alias is someone that would get no respect from anyone I know or work
with. We already have one coworker none of us have much respect for, we
certainly wouldn't want another. :-)

2. Theft is a legal term, it's already established that theft is not
involved here.

3. Calling someone a thief on here is a libel. That isn't a crime
either but you can be sued for it.

To be libel, a statement has to be a false statement that harms a
person's reputation, etc. Based on the comments of most posters in this
thread, you'd have a hard time proving that.

Plus, there is free speech here (US) and I assume wherever you are. And
people have a right to express their opinion of someone. Not liking
what someone says about you does not make it libel.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.0.4

Alias wrote:

I think a lot of people have socio-political justification for what they
do. In the same way that they'd speak up for Julian Assange or Bradley
Manning, or against GW Bush and Tony Blair for having conned us into
going to war. It's them and us; the haves and the have-nots; the
power-brokers who abuse it v. the poor abused. They see themselves as
combating a corrupt system, on the side of humanity and democracy.

Ed


Exactly.


This "exactly" would ring more true in my ears if I could really believe
that you believe it. I might step towards that if you were to express
yourself in a more articulate and cultured way than you do.
My language is that of a middle-class intellectual; a man who's had one
of the best educations available and feels most at home in middle-class
society with its values and aspirations.
Yours isn't. You express yourself in a very working-class fashion; and
it is often rude and offensive. You don't display a wish to look into
things too deeply, no patience, low boredom threshold before you just
lash out in anger.

The people who frequent the download websites are mostly like that too.
I don't get on with them. There's a cultural gap between us (a "class
barrier" to use old, non-PC language). If I start a conversation with
one of them it doesn't take too long before we've nothing more to say to
each other. We are traditional enemies; and we tread separate pathways
through life. When we're forced by circumstances into being together for
any length of time, it's more likely that we'll end up fighting than
seeing the heart of each other. They blame me, I blame them. That old
cultural divide.

There are a lot of people like that. I try and respect their cultural
norms as best I can (that's my political ideals taking a driving-seat)
but, as I said, mutual misunderstanding and fighting often result.

I suspect this little missive will be like water off a duck's back. You
won't relate to it as it goes out. You might encourage me with something
like "exactly" or "quite agree" because you see me as a winner, but that
won't bond us.

Ed

Ed Cryer wrote in :

This "exactly" would ring more true in my ears if I could really believe
that you believe it. I might step towards that if you were to express
yourself in a more articulate and cultured way than you do.
My language is that of a middle-class intellectual; a man who's had one
of the best educations available and feels most at home in middle-class
society with its values and aspirations.
Yours isn't. You express yourself in a very working-class fashion; and
it is often rude and offensive. You don't display a wish to look into
things too deeply, no patience, low boredom threshold before you just
lash out in anger.

The people who frequent the download websites are mostly like that too.
I don't get on with them. There's a cultural gap between us (a "class
barrier" to use old, non-PC language). If I start a conversation with
one of them it doesn't take too long before we've nothing more to say to
each other. We are traditional enemies; and we tread separate pathways
through life. When we're forced by circumstances into being together for
any length of time, it's more likely that we'll end up fighting than
seeing the heart of each other. They blame me, I blame them. That old
cultural divide.

There are a lot of people like that. I try and respect their cultural
norms as best I can (that's my political ideals taking a driving-seat)
but, as I said, mutual misunderstanding and fighting often result.

I suspect this little missive will be like water off a duck's back. You
won't relate to it as it goes out. You might encourage me with something
like "exactly" or "quite agree" because you see me as a winner, but that
won't bond us.

Well Ed, I don't see you as a "winner", but I do see you as an arsehole.

On 10/8/13 3:15 PM, Nicodimus wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote in :

This "exactly" would ring more true in my ears if I could really believe
that you believe it. I might step towards that if you were to express
yourself in a more articulate and cultured way than you do.
My language is that of a middle-class intellectual; a man who's had one
of the best educations available and feels most at home in middle-class
society with its values and aspirations.
Yours isn't. You express yourself in a very working-class fashion; and
it is often rude and offensive. You don't display a wish to look into
things too deeply, no patience, low boredom threshold before you just
lash out in anger.

The people who frequent the download websites are mostly like that too.
I don't get on with them. There's a cultural gap between us (a "class
barrier" to use old, non-PC language). If I start a conversation with
one of them it doesn't take too long before we've nothing more to say to
each other. We are traditional enemies; and we tread separate pathways
through life. When we're forced by circumstances into being together for
any length of time, it's more likely that we'll end up fighting than
seeing the heart of each other. They blame me, I blame them. That old
cultural divide.

There are a lot of people like that. I try and respect their cultural
norms as best I can (that's my political ideals taking a driving-seat)
but, as I said, mutual misunderstanding and fighting often result.

I suspect this little missive will be like water off a duck's back. You
won't relate to it as it goes out. You might encourage me with something
like "exactly" or "quite agree" because you see me as a winner, but that
won't bond us.

Well Ed, I don't see you as a "winner", but I do see you as an arsehole.

I believe you may have just proved Ed's point.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 23.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.0.4

On Tue, 08 Oct 2013 16:13:50 -0600, Ken Springer wrote:

On 10/8/13 3:15 PM, Nicodimus wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote in :

This "exactly" would ring more true in my ears if I could really believe
that you believe it. I might step towards that if you were to express
yourself in a more articulate and cultured way than you do.
My language is that of a middle-class intellectual; a man who's had one
of the best educations available and feels most at home in middle-class
society with its values and aspirations.
Yours isn't. You express yourself in a very working-class fashion; and
it is often rude and offensive. You don't display a wish to look into
things too deeply, no patience, low boredom threshold before you just
lash out in anger.

The people who frequent the download websites are mostly like that too.
I don't get on with them. There's a cultural gap between us (a "class
barrier" to use old, non-PC language). If I start a conversation with
one of them it doesn't take too long before we've nothing more to say to
each other. We are traditional enemies; and we tread separate pathways
through life. When we're forced by circumstances into being together for
any length of time, it's more likely that we'll end up fighting than
seeing the heart of each other. They blame me, I blame them. That old
cultural divide.

There are a lot of people like that. I try and respect their cultural
norms as best I can (that's my political ideals taking a driving-seat)
but, as I said, mutual misunderstanding and fighting often result.

I suspect this little missive will be like water off a duck's back. You
won't relate to it as it goes out. You might encourage me with something
like "exactly" or "quite agree" because you see me as a winner, but that
won't bond us.

Well Ed, I don't see you as a "winner", but I do see you as an arsehole.

I believe you may have just proved Ed's point.

Ya think? :-)

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Tue, 08 Oct 2013 21:48:13 +0100, Ed Cryer wrote:

Alias wrote:

I think a lot of people have socio-political justification for what they
do. In the same way that they'd speak up for Julian Assange or Bradley
Manning, or against GW Bush and Tony Blair for having conned us into
going to war. It's them and us; the haves and the have-nots; the
power-brokers who abuse it v. the poor abused. They see themselves as
combating a corrupt system, on the side of humanity and democracy.

Ed


Exactly.


This "exactly" would ring more true in my ears if I could really believe
that you believe it. I might step towards that if you were to express
yourself in a more articulate and cultured way than you do.
My language is that of a middle-class intellectual; a man who's had one
of the best educations available and feels most at home in middle-class
society with its values and aspirations.
Yours isn't. You express yourself in a very working-class fashion; and
it is often rude and offensive. You don't display a wish to look into
things too deeply, no patience, low boredom threshold before you just
lash out in anger.

The people who frequent the download websites are mostly like that too.
I don't get on with them. There's a cultural gap between us (a "class
barrier" to use old, non-PC language). If I start a conversation with
one of them it doesn't take too long before we've nothing more to say to
each other. We are traditional enemies; and we tread separate pathways
through life. When we're forced by circumstances into being together for
any length of time, it's more likely that we'll end up fighting than
seeing the heart of each other. They blame me, I blame them. That old
cultural divide.

There are a lot of people like that. I try and respect their cultural
norms as best I can (that's my political ideals taking a driving-seat)
but, as I said, mutual misunderstanding and fighting often result.

I suspect this little missive will be like water off a duck's back. You
won't relate to it as it goes out. You might encourage me with something
like "exactly" or "quite agree" because you see me as a winner, but that
won't bond us.

You might have made one or more valid points if it weren't for the part
about "middle-class intellectual", "best educations available", and the
things that immediately followed. Ouch. That was about as arrogant and
obnoxious as anything I've seen lately. I'm sure you didn't mean it that
way, but that's how it came across to me. Fail.

I don't always agree with the way Alias expresses himself, but I usually
respect the points he makes. I can much more easily overlook his rough
language than I can someone who elevates himself like I saw above.

Not that my opinion matters, of course.

On 10/9/2013 4:50 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
I don't always agree with the way Alias expresses himself, but I usually
respect the points he makes. I can much more easily overlook his rough
language than I can someone who elevates himself like I saw above.

Not that my opinion matters, of course.

But I almost always agree with what you post!

--
Alias

The only real problems are avarice, anger and stupidity.

Char Jackson wrote:
On Tue, 08 Oct 2013 21:48:13 +0100, Ed Cryer wrote:

Alias wrote:

I think a lot of people have socio-political justification for what they
do. In the same way that they'd speak up for Julian Assange or Bradley
Manning, or against GW Bush and Tony Blair for having conned us into
going to war. It's them and us; the haves and the have-nots; the
power-brokers who abuse it v. the poor abused. They see themselves as
combating a corrupt system, on the side of humanity and democracy.

Ed


Exactly.


This "exactly" would ring more true in my ears if I could really believe
that you believe it. I might step towards that if you were to express
yourself in a more articulate and cultured way than you do.
My language is that of a middle-class intellectual; a man who's had one
of the best educations available and feels most at home in middle-class
society with its values and aspirations.
Yours isn't. You express yourself in a very working-class fashion; and
it is often rude and offensive. You don't display a wish to look into
things too deeply, no patience, low boredom threshold before you just
lash out in anger.

The people who frequent the download websites are mostly like that too.
I don't get on with them. There's a cultural gap between us (a "class
barrier" to use old, non-PC language). If I start a conversation with
one of them it doesn't take too long before we've nothing more to say to
each other. We are traditional enemies; and we tread separate pathways
through life. When we're forced by circumstances into being together for
any length of time, it's more likely that we'll end up fighting than
seeing the heart of each other. They blame me, I blame them. That old
cultural divide.

There are a lot of people like that. I try and respect their cultural
norms as best I can (that's my political ideals taking a driving-seat)
but, as I said, mutual misunderstanding and fighting often result.

I suspect this little missive will be like water off a duck's back. You
won't relate to it as it goes out. You might encourage me with something
like "exactly" or "quite agree" because you see me as a winner, but that
won't bond us.

You might have made one or more valid points if it weren't for the part
about "middle-class intellectual", "best educations available", and the
things that immediately followed. Ouch. That was about as arrogant and
obnoxious as anything I've seen lately. I'm sure you didn't mean it that
way, but that's how it came across to me. Fail.

I don't always agree with the way Alias expresses himself, but I usually
respect the points he makes. I can much more easily overlook his rough
language than I can someone who elevates himself like I saw above.

Not that my opinion matters, of course.


Find it difficult to breathe in the higher airs of intellectuality, eh Char?
Well, I don't.
I can read Plato and Aristotle in Greek, and have papers to prove it.

It takes a high degree of humility to learn. You have to acknowledge
that there's something you don't know, and be prepared to reach for it.
Most people throw up the self-defence shields too early; accuse the
would-be teacher of overbearing arrogance.
Class-barriers.

Incidentally I feel delighted at Alias' reply below. He's actually
entered the same cultural space at which I output to him. He's been in
this group much longer than I have, and I had exchanges with him early
on, all of which gave me a suspicion that he wasn't rejecting me.
He's more bitter than I am, but I've noticed about him before something
that I respect highly; integrity of personality that comes with having
fought well against life's knocks, and having found the better part in
yourself.

See you,
Ed

On Wed, 09 Oct 2013 14:15:26 +0100, Ed Cryer wrote:

Find it difficult to breathe in the higher airs of intellectuality, eh Char?
Well, I don't.
I can read Plato and Aristotle in Greek, and have papers to prove it.

My advice? You're in a hole. Put down the shovel and stop digging.

It takes a high degree of humility to learn.

I'm not sure you're qualified to be talking about humility. ;-)

--

Char Jackson