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No Bluetooth on PC



 
 
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  #16  
Old April 29th 18, 01:29 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,uk.comp.homebuilt
Lucifer Morningstar[_3_]
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Posts: 33
Default No Bluetooth on PC

On Sun, 29 Apr 2018 11:39:57 +0100, Terry Pinnell
wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

Terry Pinnell wrote:

I've just bought a pair of 'Mpow Flame' Bluetooth earphones. They paired
with my iPad as intended and worked fine. But I just tried to use it
also with my 'Studio i7 Skylake Tower' PC. I was disappointed to find
that it apparently doesn't support Bluetooth.

(There's no mention anywhere in any category of Device Mgr and the
Bluetooth Troubleshooter reports:
"Device does not have Bluetooth
Bluetooth is not available on this device. Please try using an external
adaptor to add Bluetooth
capability to this computer.")

I'd assumed that BT would be a 'basic' facility on this PC, a relatively
high end spec in May 2016 (hopefully still respectable now). I certainly
didn't explicitly specify it, as you see:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ppmcw0hjhj...y2016.jpg?dl=0

Should I have done so? Is it common for desktop PC's to lack BT support?


"Studio" is not sufficient to identify the vendor, brand, or model of
what desktop PC you have. Neither are "i7" or "Skylake" since all that
identifies is the CPU, not the computer by brand and model. You were
vague on identifying your computer.


Really? Did you bother to read the detailed spec I provided?

Vague about the vendor (Studio) or model (Skylake)? Perhaps you don't
know that as well as 'HP', 'Dell', 'Toshiba', etc, there are many small
companies that build PC's to a customer's requirements? Note also my
'local' cross-post to uk.comp.homebuilt.

What key omissions about my PC, relevant to my very narrow query,
handicapped you in your reply?


Desktops don't usually have bluetooth but you can add bluetooth
very cheaply and effectively using a tiny USB dongle.

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Ads
  #17  
Old April 29th 18, 04:00 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,uk.comp.homebuilt
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,881
Default No Bluetooth on PC

Terry Pinnell wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

Terry Pinnell wrote:

I've just bought a pair of 'Mpow Flame' Bluetooth earphones. They paired
with my iPad as intended and worked fine. But I just tried to use it
also with my 'Studio i7 Skylake Tower' PC. I was disappointed to find
that it apparently doesn't support Bluetooth.

(There's no mention anywhere in any category of Device Mgr and the
Bluetooth Troubleshooter reports:
"Device does not have Bluetooth
Bluetooth is not available on this device. Please try using an external
adaptor to add Bluetooth
capability to this computer.")

I'd assumed that BT would be a 'basic' facility on this PC, a relatively
high end spec in May 2016 (hopefully still respectable now). I certainly
didn't explicitly specify it, as you see:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ppmcw0hjhj...y2016.jpg?dl=0

Should I have done so? Is it common for desktop PC's to lack BT support?


"Studio" is not sufficient to identify the vendor, brand, or model of
what desktop PC you have. Neither are "i7" or "Skylake" since all
that identifies is the CPU, not the computer by brand and model.
You were vague on identifying your computer.


Really? Did you bother to read the detailed spec I provided?


Those specs do not identify the brand and model, do they? No one
responding here can see your computer to know what it is or what is in
it? So just how would anyone else determine if Bluetooth hardware was
in your new computer? By looking online for the specs but "Studio"
isn't going to let them find those specs.

Vague about the vendor (Studio) or model (Skylake)? Perhaps you don't
know that as well as 'HP', 'Dell', 'Toshiba', etc, there are many small
companies that build PC's to a customer's requirements?


And how would we know that unless you said so? If its was a jobbed
build (by you or contracted) then how could you not know whether
Bluetooth was included or not? That you didn't strongly suggests you
bought a pre-built model.

Note also my 'local' cross-post to uk.comp.homebuilt.


I've yet to build my own where I was ignorant of the components therein.

What key omissions about my PC, relevant to my very narrow query,
handicapped you in your reply?


At least you provided the mobo brand and model for which you could've
looked up its specs as I did to see it has no Bluetooth. And since you
now claimed it was a jobbed or personal build, you would also know that
a daughtercard was not added for Bluetooth.

So there's a reason a USB Bluetooth dongle won't work for you? You
don't have a spare slot to add a Bluetooth daughtercard was added?
Since the mobo specs also doesn't mention wi-fi, you might want to get a
combo Bluetooth + wi-fi daughtercard.
  #18  
Old April 29th 18, 04:04 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,uk.comp.homebuilt
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,881
Default No Bluetooth on PC

Lucifer Morningstar wrote:

Desktops don't usually have bluetooth but you can add bluetooth
very cheaply and effectively using a tiny USB dongle.


That's what I mentioned (at the very end of my reply). However, the
specs for his mobo do not mention wi-fi. There are USB dongles that
have both Bluetooth and wi-fi, or if he has a spare slot he could add a
Bluetooth + wi-fi daughtercard. If he was tight on USB ports (printer,
drive, mouse+keyboard, etc), he could add a USB daughtercard to give him
another 4 external ports (if it has an internal USB port, like to use
with a card reader, it usually shares an external port).
  #19  
Old April 29th 18, 05:30 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,uk.comp.homebuilt
Johnny B Good
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 273
Default No Bluetooth on PC

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 13:46:47 -0400, Paul wrote:

====snip====

For a desktop, you can get a plugin USB nano adapter to add BT (I have a
couple, with only 6 foot reach - these are the kind of electronics
devices I refer to as "rubbish").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth

Ranges of Bluetooth Devices by Class

Class 1 100mW 20dBm ~100 meters
Class 2 2.5mW 4dBm ~10 meters
Class 3 1mW 0dBm ~1 meters


Assuming an omni-directional antenna (therefore all of the same gain),
that power level versus range table is total and utter ********.

Assuming the power levels for each class are correct, the range figures
should increase from the 1mW 0dBm end of the table at 1 metre range via
1.5 metres (2.5mW +4dBm) to 10 metres at 100mW +20dBm.

To achieve ranges of 1, 10 and 100 metres from class 3 to class 1,
starting at a power level of 1mW 0dBm for class 3, class 2 would have to
be 100mW +20dBm and class 3 would need to use a power of 10W +40dBm!

Clearly, this last requirement suggests something is very wrong with the
initial power level requirement for the 1 metre range since a 100mW
requirement looks a more plausible figure for a 100 metre range although
an even more plausible figure is likely to be 300mW for a 100 metres,
therefore a 30 metre range at 100mW seems a more likely specification for
an extended range BT device.

If we assume a 30m range using 100mW (+20dBm), then 10mW (+10dBm)
corresponds to a 10m range and 1mW (0dBm) to a 3 metre range, which looks
to be a much better range spread for the different classes of BT devices
with each magnitude increase of Tx power corresponding to real world half
magnitude increases of range going from 3 metres out to a 30 metre limit.

--
Johnny B Good
  #20  
Old April 29th 18, 07:08 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,uk.comp.homebuilt
Johnny B Good
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 273
Default No Bluetooth on PC

On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 15:02:35 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

====snip====


Adding Bluetooth is easy if you have a spare USB port (or you could add
a USB daughtercard to add more USB ports). Get a USB Bluetooth dongle.
There are lots available (e.g., http://preview.tinyurl.com/y97jfvrn).


In essence, BT, like USB's 1 and 2, is a "Toy Interface" for "Toy
Computers" (handheld digital gadgets) like tablets, phablets and
accessories for same including laptops and, occasionally, desktops where
their performance limitations are no serious impediment to their function.

I'm not denigrating BT and associated digital toys, just being mindful
that despite their undoubted convenience for social media and satnav and
snapshot photography and the like, they're simply accessories to desktop
PCs and not alternatives unless all you really need a computer for is
digital communications and web browsing.

For most of the Chattering classes, a desktop PC is an over-kill
solution. Indeed, a large portion of the Chattering classes won't even
bother with a laptop, let alone a desktop PC. Such 'heavy duty' IT kit is
no longer essential to becoming a nicely pliable member of the consuming
masses in today's "Connected World".

It's no surprise that desktop PC Motherboards rarely incorporate built
in BT adapters when the users can so easily and cheaply add such BT
connectivity when and, if ever, such an interface option is needed. After
all, the single most important feature that made the IBM PC such a
success was its expansion interface allowing the end user the ability to
extend its use way beyond that of a mere office workhorse.

--
Johnny B Good
  #21  
Old April 29th 18, 08:10 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,uk.comp.homebuilt
Frank Slootweg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,226
Default No Bluetooth on PC

Andy Burns wrote:
Frank Slootweg wrote:

Not having Bluetooth in the PC might well be a blessing in disguise,
because if it was included, it would probably be a combined Wi-Fi/
Bluetooth module and such a combination is - for 2.4GHz Wi-Fi - a bad
combination, because Bluetooth is 2.4GHz as well and might/will
interfere with Wi-Fi.


Actually having combined wifi/bluetooth radios is usually better,
because the 2.4GHz aerial is switched between the bluetooth and wifi
sections to prevent them interfering e.g.

https://www.digikey.com/-/media/Images/Product%20Highlights/S/Skyworks%20Solutions%20Inc/Wi-Fi%20Connectivity/block_diagram_interactive_wifi_connectivity_handle t_tablet.jpg


How can antenna/arial switching be a good thing, if both Wi-Fi and
Bluetooth are used at the same time, for example audio streaming?

Anyway, Wi-Fi/Bluetooth combos have given me problems for several
devices (3 brands, 2 major) and - where possible - have been solved by
using a USB dongle.

Supporting documentation:

- 'Electromagnetic interference at 2.4 GHz'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_interference_at_2.4_GHz

- The 'resident' kook's claim that Bluetooth does *not* interfere with
Wi-Fi! :-)
  #22  
Old April 29th 18, 08:38 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,uk.comp.homebuilt
Andy Burns[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default No Bluetooth on PC

Frank Slootweg wrote:

How can antenna/arial switching be a good thing, if both Wi-Fi and
Bluetooth are used at the same time


The bluetooth and wifi drivers will co-operate to ensure they can't

for example audio streaming?


and let buffering sort it out.
  #23  
Old April 29th 18, 08:52 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,uk.comp.homebuilt
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default No Bluetooth on PC

Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 13:46:47 -0400, Paul wrote:

====snip====

For a desktop, you can get a plugin USB nano adapter to add BT (I have a
couple, with only 6 foot reach - these are the kind of electronics
devices I refer to as "rubbish").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth

Ranges of Bluetooth Devices by Class

Class 1 100mW 20dBm ~100 meters
Class 2 2.5mW 4dBm ~10 meters
Class 3 1mW 0dBm ~1 meters


Assuming an omni-directional antenna (therefore all of the same gain),
that power level versus range table is total and utter ********.

Assuming the power levels for each class are correct, the range figures
should increase from the 1mW 0dBm end of the table at 1 metre range via
1.5 metres (2.5mW +4dBm) to 10 metres at 100mW +20dBm.

To achieve ranges of 1, 10 and 100 metres from class 3 to class 1,
starting at a power level of 1mW 0dBm for class 3, class 2 would have to
be 100mW +20dBm and class 3 would need to use a power of 10W +40dBm!

Clearly, this last requirement suggests something is very wrong with the
initial power level requirement for the 1 metre range since a 100mW
requirement looks a more plausible figure for a 100 metre range although
an even more plausible figure is likely to be 300mW for a 100 metres,
therefore a 30 metre range at 100mW seems a more likely specification for
an extended range BT device.

If we assume a 30m range using 100mW (+20dBm), then 10mW (+10dBm)
corresponds to a 10m range and 1mW (0dBm) to a 3 metre range, which looks
to be a much better range spread for the different classes of BT devices
with each magnitude increase of Tx power corresponding to real world half
magnitude increases of range going from 3 metres out to a 30 metre limit.


That table comes from a standard somewhere.
A happy standard. Written by promoters.

Since the devices themselves can have anywhere from zero output
to the "Class level" output, all we can really say about
this classification scheme, is it's real imaginative. The
nano receiver style implementation, is about the worst
idea they could possibly have come up with.

If you want to further upset your scientific sensibilities,
start reading some accounts of what happens when you *mix*
different classes of devices on either end. And the unexpected
test results that occur. So it gets worse.

Paul
  #24  
Old April 29th 18, 09:38 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,uk.comp.homebuilt
Frank Slootweg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,226
Default No Bluetooth on PC

Andy Burns wrote:
Frank Slootweg wrote:

How can antenna/arial switching be a good thing, if both Wi-Fi and
Bluetooth are used at the same time


The bluetooth and wifi drivers will co-operate to ensure they can't

for example audio streaming?


and let buffering sort it out.


Well, in theory that's all very nice, but in practice it apparently
doesn't work that way.

As I said, problems with several devices. Laptop, (Android) tablets
(i.e. the example of the antenna/arial switching block diagram) and
(Android) smartphones. Three different brands, of which two major ones.
Many, many different programs/apps. All these programs/app did work
correctly when either Wi-Fi or Bluetooth was *not* used. And the case
which could be fixed - the laptop - was fixed by using an extra USB
Bluetooth dongle.

*If* it's not an interference or hardware problem, it can (IMO) only
be a problem in the low-level software, i.e. the switching or/and
buffering not working correctly. For the Android tablet/smartphones one
can't fix such lower-level software.

So this is one of the very few exceptions where I let actual practical
experience overrule theory.

If others don't have these problems, then good for them. But that
doesn't mean they don't/can't exist.
  #25  
Old April 29th 18, 09:57 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,uk.comp.homebuilt
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default No Bluetooth on PC

Frank Slootweg wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Frank Slootweg wrote:

How can antenna/arial switching be a good thing, if both Wi-Fi and
Bluetooth are used at the same time

The bluetooth and wifi drivers will co-operate to ensure they can't

for example audio streaming?

and let buffering sort it out.


Well, in theory that's all very nice, but in practice it apparently
doesn't work that way.

As I said, problems with several devices. Laptop, (Android) tablets
(i.e. the example of the antenna/arial switching block diagram) and
(Android) smartphones. Three different brands, of which two major ones.
Many, many different programs/apps. All these programs/app did work
correctly when either Wi-Fi or Bluetooth was *not* used. And the case
which could be fixed - the laptop - was fixed by using an extra USB
Bluetooth dongle.

*If* it's not an interference or hardware problem, it can (IMO) only
be a problem in the low-level software, i.e. the switching or/and
buffering not working correctly. For the Android tablet/smartphones one
can't fix such lower-level software.

So this is one of the very few exceptions where I let actual practical
experience overrule theory.

If others don't have these problems, then good for them. But that
doesn't mean they don't/can't exist.


Did you try changing channels on the router ?

Bluetooth is supposed to have AFH (Adaptive Frequency-hopping).
Try channel 1 or channel 13/14 (depending on continent). This
could be a setting on the router.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freque...ations_of_FHSS

Switching to 5GHz Wifi is another solution, but one that might
not propagate well in the house. The advantage of 5GHz Wifi, is
it doesn't suffer interference from USB3 cables. USB cables
are supposed to have a broad interference peak at 2.5GHz.

Paul
  #26  
Old April 29th 18, 11:02 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,uk.comp.homebuilt
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,881
Default No Bluetooth on PC

Paul wrote:

Switching to 5GHz Wifi is another solution, but one that might
not propagate well in the house. The advantage of 5GHz Wifi, is
it doesn't suffer interference from USB3 cables. USB cables
are supposed to have a broad interference peak at 2.5GHz.


5 GHz wi-fi also permits faster data transfer. 5 GHz wi-fi has more
channels (23) that can be combined for faster data transfer (1300 Mbps)
than does 2.4 GHz wi-fi (11 channels, 450-600 Mbps). Alas, 5 GHz wi-fi
has less range (half to a third) and more easily blocked by walls and
floors than 2.4 GHz wi-fi (300 ft open air, 150 ft indoors). Although
the range of signal is theoretical, devices often require a minimal
signal strength so you probably will lose a connection (if you ever got
one) long before reaching those ranges; however, 2.4 GHz transmits
farther but slower than 5 GHz.
  #27  
Old April 30th 18, 01:05 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,uk.comp.homebuilt
Peter Hill
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default No Bluetooth on PC

On 28-Apr-18 7:45 PM, Bill wrote:
In message , Terry Pinnell
writes
I've just bought a pair of 'Mpow Flame' Bluetooth earphones. They
paired with my iPad as intended and worked fine. But I just tried to
use it also with my 'Studio i7 Skylake Tower' PC. I was disappointed
to find that it apparently doesn't support Bluetooth.


I have bunches of laptops, some with BT, some not, that I have
distributed around family and friends, and that I use here.

Here in the UK, the pound shops (used to, presumably still do) stock
tiny little usb BT adapters. They are so small as to be unnoticeable in
use and are very easy to lose, but I now have about 4 in, working in
these machines in various places. I forget what the chip inside is, but
it's from a well known manufacturer.

I imagine they may only have a short range, but they seem to work
excellently. I think most of mine came from Pound World rather than the
more common shops.



They haven't stocked them in years. Not since some people started to
undercut them at 50p. But those shops have gone and now you will have to
go on e-bay 25p free postage for the usb2 bt2 devices they sold in the
pound shops.

If you want BT CSR4 then it's about £1.50.
  #28  
Old April 30th 18, 03:11 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,uk.comp.homebuilt
Frank Slootweg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,226
Default No Bluetooth on PC

Paul wrote:
Frank Slootweg wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:
Frank Slootweg wrote:

How can antenna/arial switching be a good thing, if both Wi-Fi and
Bluetooth are used at the same time
The bluetooth and wifi drivers will co-operate to ensure they can't

for example audio streaming?
and let buffering sort it out.


Well, in theory that's all very nice, but in practice it apparently
doesn't work that way.

As I said, problems with several devices. Laptop, (Android) tablets
(i.e. the example of the antenna/arial switching block diagram) and
(Android) smartphones. Three different brands, of which two major ones.
Many, many different programs/apps. All these programs/app did work
correctly when either Wi-Fi or Bluetooth was *not* used. And the case
which could be fixed - the laptop - was fixed by using an extra USB
Bluetooth dongle.

*If* it's not an interference or hardware problem, it can (IMO) only
be a problem in the low-level software, i.e. the switching or/and
buffering not working correctly. For the Android tablet/smartphones one
can't fix such lower-level software.

So this is one of the very few exceptions where I let actual practical
experience overrule theory.

If others don't have these problems, then good for them. But that
doesn't mean they don't/can't exist.


Did you try changing channels on the router ?


Yes, but I did that *before* these problems, to optmize Wi-Fi signal
level. (We're in an appartment building with many other Wi-Fi access
points.)

I didn't do it again, because with a seperate USB Bluetooth dongle,
both Wi-Fi and Bluetooth worked fine (and I wasn't going to sacrifice
Wi-Fi signal level). So a little separation of the antennas was enough.

Bluetooth is supposed to have AFH (Adaptive Frequency-hopping).


Yeah, and it's supposed to decrease the interference, but in practice
it often doesn't (sufficiently). If you do a Google search, you'll see
hundreds - if not thousands - of problem reports.

Try channel 1 or channel 13/14 (depending on continent). This
could be a setting on the router.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freque...ations_of_FHSS

Switching to 5GHz Wifi is another solution, but one that might
not propagate well in the house. The advantage of 5GHz Wifi, is
it doesn't suffer interference from USB3 cables. USB cables
are supposed to have a broad interference peak at 2.5GHz.


Yeah, I know that 5GHz Wi-Fi doesn't have this problem, that's why my
warning to the OP specifically mentioned 2.4GHz Wi-Fi.
  #29  
Old April 30th 18, 03:59 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,uk.comp.homebuilt
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,718
Default No Bluetooth on PC

In article , Frank Slootweg
wrote:

So this is one of the very few exceptions where I let actual practical
experience overrule theory.

If others don't have these problems, then good for them. But that
doesn't mean they don't/can't exist.


Did you try changing channels on the router ?


Yes, but I did that *before* these problems, to optmize Wi-Fi signal
level. (We're in an appartment building with many other Wi-Fi access
points.)


the channel should always be set to automatic, particularly in an
apartment setting, so that if there's any interference of any kind,
from any source, at any time, it will switch channels.

I didn't do it again, because with a seperate USB Bluetooth dongle,
both Wi-Fi and Bluetooth worked fine (and I wasn't going to sacrifice
Wi-Fi signal level). So a little separation of the antennas was enough.


ok.

Bluetooth is supposed to have AFH (Adaptive Frequency-hopping).


Yeah, and it's supposed to decrease the interference, but in practice
it often doesn't (sufficiently). If you do a Google search, you'll see
hundreds - if not thousands - of problem reports.


hundreds or even thousands of reports out of billions of devices is
insignificant. it's completely meaningless.

nothing is perfect, so it won't ever be zero, with user error and/or
defective hardware likely being the cause in many of those cases rather
than the underlying technology.

what you won't see are the hundreds of millions of users who *don't*
have a problem, notably smartphone users.
  #30  
Old April 30th 18, 04:06 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Michael Logies
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 225
Default No Bluetooth on PC

On 28 Apr 2018 18:54:10 GMT, Frank Slootweg
wrote:

Don't worry about it. (As others also mentioned,) Just buy a (real
brand) USB Bluetooth dongle.


It should support Aptx (Apt-x). (I hope your earphones do).
 




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