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  #61  
Old December 14th 14, 11:59 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
DMP[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 19
Default Believe it or not but PC is coming back...

On 12/14/2014 12:56 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 06:53:51 +0200, Steve Hayes
wrote:

What is "cable" and how does it differ from a "landline"?

Cable, in this context, refers to a service provider who historically
delivered television programming over a cable system, rather than over the
air. Toward the end of the last century, most cable TV providers upgraded
their cable plants in order to be able to offer Internet access over the
same physical cables as they'd been delivering TV up to that point. Soon
after, the cable providers offered phone service over those cables, as well.

Landline, on the other hand, typically refers to wired telephone service
provided by a traditional telephone company, some of whom are now offering
television programming and of course Internet access over their lines.

Here in the States, most Internet access is via "cable", or in other words
via the local cable company. DSL via a phone company runs a distant second.
In other parts of the world, DSL is the dominant provider.

The nice thing about cable here in the States is that it tends to be much
faster than DSL, albeit at a somewhat higher cost.

Does this "cable" somehow not exist on land, is it that oxymoron, a "wireless
cable"?

It's coaxial, and it may be strung on poles or buried in the ground.

In my understanding, you either have "landline" or "wireless". If it has a
wire, it must go across the land.

The third option, which may not be available where you live, is "cable".


If you live somewhere where you're required to buy POTS service in order to
get DSL, well shame on your phone company, but the other thing is that VoIP
phone service may not make sense in that case since you already have phone
service, unless you just want free long distance or free 'in network'
calling around the world.

We travelled in our RV last winter to Florida; we stayed in park
where there was no cable service. We had to settle for "dry" DSL which
wasn't so dry because we had to take a phone. That little experience
ended up costing 60.00 a month, but it was better and faster,more secure
and less costly than the mobile hotspot we had.

The best part was the fact that Verizon apparently "sold" our new phone
number to local businesses. I must have gotten 10 calls a day
congratulating us on the purchase of our new home. And, even though we
were customers of Verizon in another state, we had to suffer through a
credit check with someone who barely had command of the English
language. We got home and cancelled our Verizon service and chose Ooma
and couldn't be happier.

I think the subject of this thread got lost along time ago, so I don't
feel bad about asking. Has anyone here ever bought a PC from Digital Storm?

D.
Ads
  #62  
Old December 14th 14, 01:45 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Steve Hayes[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,089
Default Believe it or not but PC is coming back...

On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 23:56:30 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:

On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 06:53:51 +0200, Steve Hayes
wrote:

What is "cable" and how does it differ from a "landline"?


Cable, in this context, refers to a service provider who historically
delivered television programming over a cable system, rather than over the
air. Toward the end of the last century, most cable TV providers upgraded
their cable plants in order to be able to offer Internet access over the
same physical cables as they'd been delivering TV up to that point. Soon
after, the cable providers offered phone service over those cables, as well.

Landline, on the other hand, typically refers to wired telephone service
provided by a traditional telephone company, some of whom are now offering
television programming and of course Internet access over their lines.

Here in the States, most Internet access is via "cable", or in other words
via the local cable company. DSL via a phone company runs a distant second.
In other parts of the world, DSL is the dominant provider.

The nice thing about cable here in the States is that it tends to be much
faster than DSL, albeit at a somewhat higher cost.

Does this "cable" somehow not exist on land, is it that oxymoron, a "wireless
cable"?


It's coaxial, and it may be strung on poles or buried in the ground.


So for you "landline" refers only to the PSTN, and not other forms of land
line (as opposed to wireless)?


In my understanding, you either have "landline" or "wireless". If it has a
wire, it must go across the land.


The third option, which may not be available where you live, is "cable".


Indeed it is not available here, but I would think of it as a "landline" as
well.

If you live somewhere where you're required to buy POTS service in order to
get DSL, well shame on your phone company, but the other thing is that VoIP
phone service may not make sense in that case since you already have phone
service, unless you just want free long distance or free 'in network'
calling around the world.


Skype seems to work OK for VoIP, no special adapters needed.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
  #63  
Old December 14th 14, 02:29 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,291
Default Believe it or not but PC is coming back...

In message , Steve Hayes
writes:
On Sat, 13 Dec 2014 23:56:30 -0600, Char Jackson wrote:

On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 06:53:51 +0200, Steve Hayes
wrote:

What is "cable" and how does it differ from a "landline"?


In the structure of the cable; cable, at least traditionally, was/is
coaxial, whereas "landline" is twisted pair.

Yes, I know, it could be argued that the twisted pair is also a cable;
however, in this context, the term cable tends to be used to refer to
the ...

Cable, in this context, refers to a service provider who historically
delivered television programming over a cable system, rather than over the


.... TV, and thus coaxial, only. The question "have you got cable"
usually referred to TV provision via that method.
[]
Landline, on the other hand, typically refers to wired telephone service
provided by a traditional telephone company, some of whom are now offering
television programming and of course Internet access over their lines.


Is the actual term "landline" fairly recent in becoming common, in the
USA and/or Canada? I'd say it wasn't in common use in the UK until
recently, where it has in the last few years come to be used when
talking about telephone service, to distinguish it from what we call
mobile 'phone service (more commonly called "cellular" in leftpondia, I
think).

Here in the States, most Internet access is via "cable", or in other words
via the local cable company. DSL via a phone company runs a distant second.
In other parts of the world, DSL is the dominant provider.


In the UK, that's certainly the case, especially in even moderately
rural areas: "cable TV" had a much lower degree of penetration here. (We
tend to call DSL ADSL, or at least in the trade we do; the general
public just call it "broadband".) The degree of TV distribution by
special cables _is_ still increasing, though still quite slowly;
nowadays, of course, it _is_ usually combined with an internet option.
With the growth of TV over IP, the distinction between TV-via-cable and
TV-via-internet is disappearing, of course.

The nice thing about cable here in the States is that it tends to be much
faster than DSL, albeit at a somewhat higher cost.

Does this "cable" somehow not exist on land, is it that oxymoron, a "wireless
cable"?


It's coaxial, and it may be strung on poles or buried in the ground.


So for you "landline" refers only to the PSTN, and not other forms of land
line (as opposed to wireless)?

I think you're in quite a small minority in using the term "land line"
(with the space) at all; and yes, whether you like it or not, words
change (FWIW I don't like it either, but fighting it is pretty
pointless), and "landline" is indeed usually used to refer only to
twisted-pair PSTN lines.

In my understanding, you either have "landline" or "wireless". If it has a
wire, it must go across the land.


Yes, but if it's not twisted pair, it's not usually referred to as
"landline". So in _my_ understanding, you have landline (PSTN), cable
(originally coax, now including fibre), wireless, or satellite. Yes, the
cable is a line running over (or under) land, and the PSTN could be
referred to as a cable, but in this particular context, the terms mean
what they do, not what their roots say they do.

The third option, which may not be available where you live, is "cable".


Indeed it is not available here, but I would think of it as a "landline" as
well.


I think you might find few others think that way.

If you live somewhere where you're required to buy POTS service in order to
get DSL, well shame on your phone company, but the other thing is that VoIP


Well, sort of, though you would expect them to maintain the line,
wouldn't you? OK, it could be argued - and IMO it _should_ be that way -
that the maintenance component (what "line rental", a common term in the
UK, really should mean, but doesn't) should be displayed and charged
separately from the POTS aspect; presumably, however, the POTS provision
is a sufficiently small extra part that it would cost more in admin. to
list and charge for it separately than could be saved.

phone service may not make sense in that case since you already have phone
service, unless you just want free long distance or free 'in network'
calling around the world.


Skype seems to work OK for VoIP, no special adapters needed.

The computer - or smartphone - on which you are running Skype is the
adapter in this case. You can't just connect a plain 'phone (handset
plus dial) to a line and Skype through it.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The reason for the oil shortage: nobody remembered to check the oil levels. Our
oil is located in the North Sea but our dip-sticks are located in Westminster.
(or Texas and Washington etc. - adjust as necessary!)
  #64  
Old December 14th 14, 04:52 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,449
Default Believe it or not but PC is coming back...

On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 14:45:53 +0200, Steve Hayes
wrote:


It's coaxial, and it may be strung on poles or buried in the ground.


So for you "landline" refers only to the PSTN, and not other forms of land
line (as opposed to wireless)?


That's the traditional definition, yes.


--

Char Jackson
  #65  
Old December 15th 14, 07:54 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.usage.english
Steve Hayes[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,089
Default Cable, landline, wireless and satellite

On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 12:47:18 -0500, Wolf K wrote:

On 2014-12-14 8:29 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
[...]
Yes, but if it's not twisted pair, it's not usually referred to as
"landline". So in _my_ understanding, you have landline (PSTN), cable
(originally coax, now including fibre), wireless, or satellite. Yes, the
cable is a line running over (or under) land, and the PSTN could be
referred to as a cable, but in this particular context, the terms mean
what they do, not what their roots say they do. [...]


Usage here in Ontario, AFAIK in the RoC also:

Cable: coaxial, originally used to deliver analog TV signals, now used
to deliver digital signals, usually a combination of TV and internet,
with phone also available. Cable was originally set up by individuals
and small companies to serve communities in fringe areas, with the
receiving antenna somewhere high, and the cable distributing its signal
to the subscribers. When cable companies consolidated, they used a
combination of cable and microwave to link the network into a single system.

Landline (or land line): twisted pair, originally for analog telephone,
now for digital signals. Voice and internet carried at a different
frequencies, filter required at every phone plug. Voice has been digital
in Canada for at least 40 years. Good local distribution of broadband
signals, up to about 1.5km from a "node".


I suppose this discussion now belongs in alt.usage.english, rather than here.

I've now realised that some people have been using "landline" to mean
something different from I mean by it, so having cleared up that confusion it
becomes a matter of English usage rather than one of communications
technology.

In my English "landline" means signals carried overland by electrical wires,
or cables, or optical fibre cables that are on the ground, under the ground,
or carried above the ground on poles. As opposed to "wireless", which to me
also means "cableless".

To me "cable" means a multistrand wire, or miltistand optical fibres, whether
coaxial, or used to support the weight of a cable car.

There used to be a firm called "Cable and wireless", and the "Cable" in their
name referred to messages sent via the PSTN. In my youth "cable" was quite
often used as a synonym for "telegram", again sent over the PSTN, especially
if it was longer than a single page, as in a press report.

So I would be interested in knowing how widespread is the idea that "landline"
excludes "cable", because to me "cable" is included in the more general term
"landline", and the opposite of "landline" is not "cable", but "wireless" (and
"wireless" includes "satellite").






Glass fibre, glass, fibre, Fibe (TM): Glass fibre cable for digital
signals. Carries everything.

Satellite: for digital signals, even in the analog TV age, carrying TV.
Internet and phone service also available. Most people refer only to TV
services with this term, e.g., see Netflix as different from "regular"
TV only for choice and price.

Microwave: originally used to replace buried or pole-hung wires/cables
in sparsely settled areas (Canada is big ;-)), thus reducing maintenance
work. Carry phone and TV. I believe they were digital from the beginning.

Cell: microwave spectrum used for cellular (mobile) phones.

GPS: digital satellite signals used by GPS (Satnav) devices.

FWIW, in mid-northern Ontario you will see groups of towers festooned
with a dozen or more antennas each.

AFAICT, most people think more in terms of the devices than the means
used to deliver the signals.

Footnote: The first cable operators used splitters and amplifiers to
share their own antenna's signals with neighbours, then all or parts of
small communities. The TV networks of course were livid at this "theft"
of their signals, and tried to horn in. Eventually, litigation and
legislation regularised the cable business.

Then the telecoms bought up the cable operators, with the result we have
now: a de facto monopoly of the three major telecoms, who offer basic
services at "international" rates, and charge for every add-on to the
point where most households pay $100 to $200 per month for their
combination TV, Internet, and cell and/or landline phones. Eg, the
landline bill includes a "network access fee" and a "touch tone fee".
Really.

In the last 10-15 years, the telecoms have bought content providers and
producers, as well as sport teams and such, so that we have the most
thoroughly integrated information/entertainment system in the world.

Have a good day,


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
  #66  
Old December 15th 14, 10:04 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.usage.english
Andy Burns[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 399
Default Cable, landline, wireless and satellite

Steve Hayes wrote:

I would be interested in knowing how widespread is the idea that
"landline" excludes "cable"


When talking about voice service, I wouldn't distinguish, especially as
Virgin Media (tend to?) use a "shotgun" cable so the voice circuit is
delivered over twisted pair from the street cabinet.

But when talking about Internet access I'd distinguish broadband over
coaxial cable (DOCSIS) and broadband over twisted pair cable (ADSL/VDSL).

All from a UK perspective.

  #67  
Old December 15th 14, 11:06 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.usage.english
Steve Hayes[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,089
Default Cable, landline, wireless and satellite

On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 09:04:54 +0000, Andy Burns
wrote:

Steve Hayes wrote:

I would be interested in knowing how widespread is the idea that
"landline" excludes "cable"


When talking about voice service, I wouldn't distinguish, especially as
Virgin Media (tend to?) use a "shotgun" cable so the voice circuit is
delivered over twisted pair from the street cabinet.

But when talking about Internet access I'd distinguish broadband over
coaxial cable (DOCSIS) and broadband over twisted pair cable (ADSL/VDSL).


So would I, but I'd refer to both as a "landline".

But the only use I normally hear for "landline" is as opposed to "cell phone"
(BrE=mobile).

People say things like "I'll call you on my landline -- it's cheaper".


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
  #68  
Old December 15th 14, 12:33 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.usage.english
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default Cable, landline, wireless and satellite

On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:54:47 +0200, Steve Hayes
wrote:

On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 12:47:18 -0500, Wolf K wrote:

On 2014-12-14 8:29 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
[...]
Yes, but if it's not twisted pair, it's not usually referred to as
"landline". So in _my_ understanding, you have landline (PSTN), cable
(originally coax, now including fibre), wireless, or satellite. Yes, the
cable is a line running over (or under) land, and the PSTN could be
referred to as a cable, but in this particular context, the terms mean
what they do, not what their roots say they do. [...]


Usage here in Ontario, AFAIK in the RoC also:

Cable: coaxial, originally used to deliver analog TV signals, now used
to deliver digital signals, usually a combination of TV and internet,
with phone also available. Cable was originally set up by individuals
and small companies to serve communities in fringe areas, with the
receiving antenna somewhere high, and the cable distributing its signal
to the subscribers. When cable companies consolidated, they used a
combination of cable and microwave to link the network into a single system.

Landline (or land line): twisted pair, originally for analog telephone,
now for digital signals. Voice and internet carried at a different
frequencies, filter required at every phone plug. Voice has been digital
in Canada for at least 40 years. Good local distribution of broadband
signals, up to about 1.5km from a "node".


I suppose this discussion now belongs in alt.usage.english, rather than here.

I've now realised that some people have been using "landline" to mean
something different from I mean by it, so having cleared up that confusion it
becomes a matter of English usage rather than one of communications
technology.

In my English "landline" means signals carried overland by electrical wires,
or cables, or optical fibre cables that are on the ground, under the ground,
or carried above the ground on poles. As opposed to "wireless", which to me
also means "cableless".

To me "cable" means a multistrand wire, or miltistand optical fibres, whether
coaxial, or used to support the weight of a cable car.

There used to be a firm called "Cable and wireless", and the "Cable" in their
name referred to messages sent via the PSTN. In my youth "cable" was quite
often used as a synonym for "telegram", again sent over the PSTN, especially
if it was longer than a single page, as in a press report.

I think that "cable" for a message was an abbreviation of "cablegram".

The OED says:

cablegram, n.

A message sent by submarine telegraph cable.

Your use of PSTN is anachronistic! The Public Switched Telephone Network
came into existence long after (electric) telegraph systems.

So I would be interested in knowing how widespread is the idea that "landline"
excludes "cable", because to me "cable" is included in the more general term
"landline", and the opposite of "landline" is not "cable", but "wireless" (and
"wireless" includes "satellite").


A lot depends on context.

In the UK, on TV talent shows in which viewers vote by phone it is usual
to give two sets of numbers to call. Typical wording:

"If calling from a landline dial "nnn nn nn nn" plus the number of the
contestant. If calling from a mobile dial "nnnnn" plus the number of
the contestant."

In that context "landline" means any fixed, non-mobile, phone. It could
be a connection supplied by a phone company or it could be a phone
service that uses the cable provided by a cable TV provider.


Glass fibre, glass, fibre, Fibe (TM): Glass fibre cable for digital
signals. Carries everything.

Satellite: for digital signals, even in the analog TV age, carrying TV.
Internet and phone service also available. Most people refer only to TV
services with this term, e.g., see Netflix as different from "regular"
TV only for choice and price.

Microwave: originally used to replace buried or pole-hung wires/cables
in sparsely settled areas (Canada is big ;-)), thus reducing maintenance
work. Carry phone and TV. I believe they were digital from the beginning.

Cell: microwave spectrum used for cellular (mobile) phones.

GPS: digital satellite signals used by GPS (Satnav) devices.

FWIW, in mid-northern Ontario you will see groups of towers festooned
with a dozen or more antennas each.

AFAICT, most people think more in terms of the devices than the means
used to deliver the signals.

Footnote: The first cable operators used splitters and amplifiers to
share their own antenna's signals with neighbours, then all or parts of
small communities. The TV networks of course were livid at this "theft"
of their signals, and tried to horn in. Eventually, litigation and
legislation regularised the cable business.

Then the telecoms bought up the cable operators, with the result we have
now: a de facto monopoly of the three major telecoms, who offer basic
services at "international" rates, and charge for every add-on to the
point where most households pay $100 to $200 per month for their
combination TV, Internet, and cell and/or landline phones. Eg, the
landline bill includes a "network access fee" and a "touch tone fee".
Really.

In the last 10-15 years, the telecoms have bought content providers and
producers, as well as sport teams and such, so that we have the most
thoroughly integrated information/entertainment system in the world.

Have a good day,



--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
  #69  
Old December 15th 14, 12:34 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.usage.english
Peter Moylan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 22
Default Cable, landline, wireless and satellite

On 15/12/14 17:54, Steve Hayes wrote:

I've now realised that some people have been using "landline" to mean
something different from I mean by it, so having cleared up that confusion it
becomes a matter of English usage rather than one of communications
technology.

In my English "landline" means signals carried overland by electrical wires,
or cables, or optical fibre cables that are on the ground, under the ground,
or carried above the ground on poles. As opposed to "wireless", which to me
also means "cableless".

To me "cable" means a multistrand wire, or miltistand optical fibres, whether
coaxial, or used to support the weight of a cable car.


I almost agree with you, but not quite. I use "landline" to include the
entire PSTN. (Which means, approximately, that part of the telephone
system that does not include mobile (cell) phones.) Now (in my country,
but probably also in yours) that PSTN has a variety of intercity links,
including microwave links. The difference is that these are highly
directional station-to-station links, as distinct from "wireless" which
usually implies omnidirectional broadcasting.

For international connections, the PSTN uses undersea cables in some
cases, and satellite links in others. The latter are radio links, but
conventionally we do not describe them as "wireless" because they are
part of the PSTN. Informally, we consider them to be part of the
landline network, even if they don't travel over land.

There used to be a firm called "Cable and wireless", and the "Cable" in their
name referred to messages sent via the PSTN. In my youth "cable" was quite
often used as a synonym for "telegram", again sent over the PSTN, especially
if it was longer than a single page, as in a press report.


Agreed, but I think that's obsolete terminology.

So I would be interested in knowing how widespread is the idea that "landline"
excludes "cable", because to me "cable" is included in the more general term
"landline", and the opposite of "landline" is not "cable", but "wireless" (and
"wireless" includes "satellite").


In Australia "a cable" is the twisted pair or the coaxial cable or
whatever that forms a wired link, and it's used that way by electrical
engineers. In the context of television, however, "cable" has a much
more specialised use. "Cable TV" is synonymous with "Pay TV", a set of
TV stations that you don't get unless you have a paid subscription. This
is in contrast with "Free-to-air TV", which is accessible to anyone who
has a TV set. "Cable TV" is also called "Fox TV", because a single
company has a monopoly.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
  #70  
Old December 15th 14, 04:21 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.usage.english
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default Cable, landline, wireless and satellite

Wolf K wrote:
On 2014-12-15 1:54 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 12:47:18 -0500, Wolf wrote:

On 2014-12-14 8:29 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
[...]
Yes, but if it's not twisted pair, it's not usually referred to as
"landline". So in_my_ understanding, you have landline (PSTN), cable
(originally coax, now including fibre), wireless, or satellite.
Yes, the
cable is a line running over (or under) land, and the PSTN could be
referred to as a cable, but in this particular context, the terms
mean
what they do, not what their roots say they do. [...]

Usage here in Ontario, AFAIK in the RoC also:

Cable: coaxial, originally used to deliver analog TV signals, now used
to deliver digital signals, usually a combination of TV and internet,
with phone also available. Cable was originally set up by individuals
and small companies to serve communities in fringe areas, with the
receiving antenna somewhere high, and the cable distributing its signal
to the subscribers. When cable companies consolidated, they used a
combination of cable and microwave to link the network into a single
system.

Landline (or land line): twisted pair, originally for analog telephone,
now for digital signals. Voice and internet carried at a different
frequencies, filter required at every phone plug. Voice has been
digital
in Canada for at least 40 years. Good local distribution of broadband
signals, up to about 1.5km from a "node".

I suppose this discussion now belongs in alt.usage.english, rather
than here.

[etc]

Well, it's certainly a usage issue, another example of how English
develops differently in different parts of the world. Curious how
technical terms vary so much. There's a thesis topic for a linguistics
grad student there. ;-)

Nice example: A few years ago, my cousin was surprised to hear that in
N. America we used "cell" or "cell phone" for what they called a
"Handy". Lord know who invented "Handy", likely an advertising slave
trying to give some cachet to the new technology. German advertising and
news media are riddled with (often misused) English words.

"Cell, cell phone" are already obsolescent. It's now just ..... a phone.
;-)

Have a good day,


We have walkie-talkie and handie-talkie. The latter being a WWII
handheld radio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkie-talkie

That'll give you some idea where the Handy came from.

Paul
  #71  
Old December 15th 14, 04:49 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.usage.english
pjp[_10_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,183
Default Cable, landline, wireless and satellite

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 12:47:18 -0500, Wolf K wrote:

On 2014-12-14 8:29 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
[...]
Yes, but if it's not twisted pair, it's not usually referred to as
"landline". So in _my_ understanding, you have landline (PSTN), cable
(originally coax, now including fibre), wireless, or satellite. Yes, the
cable is a line running over (or under) land, and the PSTN could be
referred to as a cable, but in this particular context, the terms mean
what they do, not what their roots say they do. [...]


Usage here in Ontario, AFAIK in the RoC also:

Cable: coaxial, originally used to deliver analog TV signals, now used
to deliver digital signals, usually a combination of TV and internet,
with phone also available. Cable was originally set up by individuals
and small companies to serve communities in fringe areas, with the
receiving antenna somewhere high, and the cable distributing its signal
to the subscribers. When cable companies consolidated, they used a
combination of cable and microwave to link the network into a single system.

Landline (or land line): twisted pair, originally for analog telephone,
now for digital signals. Voice and internet carried at a different
frequencies, filter required at every phone plug. Voice has been digital
in Canada for at least 40 years. Good local distribution of broadband
signals, up to about 1.5km from a "node".


I suppose this discussion now belongs in alt.usage.english, rather than here.

I've now realised that some people have been using "landline" to mean
something different from I mean by it, so having cleared up that confusion it
becomes a matter of English usage rather than one of communications
technology.

In my English "landline" means signals carried overland by electrical wires,
or cables, or optical fibre cables that are on the ground, under the ground,
or carried above the ground on poles. As opposed to "wireless", which to me
also means "cableless".

To me "cable" means a multistrand wire, or miltistand optical fibres, whether
coaxial, or used to support the weight of a cable car.

There used to be a firm called "Cable and wireless", and the "Cable" in their
name referred to messages sent via the PSTN. In my youth "cable" was quite
often used as a synonym for "telegram", again sent over the PSTN, especially
if it was longer than a single page, as in a press report.

So I would be interested in knowing how widespread is the idea that "landline"
excludes "cable", because to me "cable" is included in the more general term


Physical line into house, you're on a landline. Attenna used instead,
you're wireless. Real simple.
  #72  
Old December 15th 14, 06:41 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.usage.english
Steve Hayes[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,089
Default Cable, landline, wireless and satellite

On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 22:34:51 +1100, Peter Moylan wrote:

On 15/12/14 17:54, Steve Hayes wrote:

I've now realised that some people have been using "landline" to mean
something different from I mean by it, so having cleared up that confusion it
becomes a matter of English usage rather than one of communications
technology.

In my English "landline" means signals carried overland by electrical wires,
or cables, or optical fibre cables that are on the ground, under the ground,
or carried above the ground on poles. As opposed to "wireless", which to me
also means "cableless".

To me "cable" means a multistrand wire, or miltistand optical fibres, whether
coaxial, or used to support the weight of a cable car.


I almost agree with you, but not quite. I use "landline" to include the
entire PSTN. (Which means, approximately, that part of the telephone
system that does not include mobile (cell) phones.) Now (in my country,
but probably also in yours) that PSTN has a variety of intercity links,
including microwave links. The difference is that these are highly
directional station-to-station links, as distinct from "wireless" which
usually implies omnidirectional broadcasting.

For international connections, the PSTN uses undersea cables in some
cases, and satellite links in others. The latter are radio links, but
conventionally we do not describe them as "wireless" because they are
part of the PSTN. Informally, we consider them to be part of the
landline network, even if they don't travel over land.


Agreed, but when I talk of "my landline", I'm referring to a phone that is
connected by wire to the exchange, whether that wire be twisted pair or co-ax.
How the exchange connects to other exchanges, whether by copper wire, optic
fibre, microwave, or satellite, doesn't matter very much. It's a landline if
it has a wire attached to it (or to a base if it's wireless within the house).

If it's not a landline, it's a mobile/cell/satellite phone.

There used to be a firm called "Cable and wireless", and the "Cable" in their
name referred to messages sent via the PSTN. In my youth "cable" was quite
often used as a synonym for "telegram", again sent over the PSTN, especially
if it was longer than a single page, as in a press report.


Agreed, but I think that's obsolete terminology.

So I would be interested in knowing how widespread is the idea that "landline"
excludes "cable", because to me "cable" is included in the more general term
"landline", and the opposite of "landline" is not "cable", but "wireless" (and
"wireless" includes "satellite").


In Australia "a cable" is the twisted pair or the coaxial cable or
whatever that forms a wired link, and it's used that way by electrical
engineers. In the context of television, however, "cable" has a much
more specialised use. "Cable TV" is synonymous with "Pay TV", a set of
TV stations that you don't get unless you have a paid subscription. This
is in contrast with "Free-to-air TV", which is accessible to anyone who
has a TV set. "Cable TV" is also called "Fox TV", because a single
company has a monopoly.


Well we have Pay-TV, but there are no cables, except between the satellite
dish and the decoder, and between the decoder and the receiver.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
  #73  
Old December 15th 14, 06:44 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.usage.english
Steve Hayes[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,089
Default Cable, landline, wireless and satellite

On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 11:49:20 -0400, pjp
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 14 Dec 2014 12:47:18 -0500, Wolf K wrote:

On 2014-12-14 8:29 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
[...]
Yes, but if it's not twisted pair, it's not usually referred to as
"landline". So in _my_ understanding, you have landline (PSTN), cable
(originally coax, now including fibre), wireless, or satellite. Yes, the
cable is a line running over (or under) land, and the PSTN could be
referred to as a cable, but in this particular context, the terms mean
what they do, not what their roots say they do. [...]

Usage here in Ontario, AFAIK in the RoC also:

Cable: coaxial, originally used to deliver analog TV signals, now used
to deliver digital signals, usually a combination of TV and internet,
with phone also available. Cable was originally set up by individuals
and small companies to serve communities in fringe areas, with the
receiving antenna somewhere high, and the cable distributing its signal
to the subscribers. When cable companies consolidated, they used a
combination of cable and microwave to link the network into a single system.

Landline (or land line): twisted pair, originally for analog telephone,
now for digital signals. Voice and internet carried at a different
frequencies, filter required at every phone plug. Voice has been digital
in Canada for at least 40 years. Good local distribution of broadband
signals, up to about 1.5km from a "node".


I suppose this discussion now belongs in alt.usage.english, rather than here.

I've now realised that some people have been using "landline" to mean
something different from I mean by it, so having cleared up that confusion it
becomes a matter of English usage rather than one of communications
technology.

In my English "landline" means signals carried overland by electrical wires,
or cables, or optical fibre cables that are on the ground, under the ground,
or carried above the ground on poles. As opposed to "wireless", which to me
also means "cableless".

To me "cable" means a multistrand wire, or miltistand optical fibres, whether
coaxial, or used to support the weight of a cable car.

There used to be a firm called "Cable and wireless", and the "Cable" in their
name referred to messages sent via the PSTN. In my youth "cable" was quite
often used as a synonym for "telegram", again sent over the PSTN, especially
if it was longer than a single page, as in a press report.

So I would be interested in knowing how widespread is the idea that "landline"
excludes "cable", because to me "cable" is included in the more general term


Physical line into house, you're on a landline. Attenna used instead,
you're wireless. Real simple.


And where are you?

TGhat's certtainly my usage, and I think Australian, but there are some places
where it is apparently used differently.


--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
  #74  
Old December 15th 14, 06:55 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,alt.usage.english
Charles Bishop
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7
Default Cable, landline, wireless and satellite

In article ,
Steve Hayes wrote:

[snip discussion in another group]

I suppose this discussion now belongs in alt.usage.english, rather than here.


"Here" is aue. [This could be a discussion of the terms needed if we get
time travel.]

I've now realised that some people have been using "landline" to mean
something different from I mean by it, so having cleared up that confusion it
becomes a matter of English usage rather than one of communications
technology.

In my English "landline" means signals carried overland by electrical wires,
or cables, or optical fibre cables that are on the ground, under the ground,
or carried above the ground on poles. As opposed to "wireless", which to me
also means "cableless".


Landline for me omits "cable" which is coaxial cable (single carrier
surrounded by a "shield" of braided wires). It refers to the telephone
twisted pairs brought into the house by the telephone company.

However, reading your discussion I now see that this is outdated
probably and can be used for any wire/cable that isn't part of a
wireless (OTA, supported by distribution by antennas) network.

To me "cable" means a multistrand wire, or miltistand optical fibres, whether
coaxial, or used to support the weight of a cable car.


Me too, but context is necessary for the cable car.

There used to be a firm called "Cable and wireless", and the "Cable" in their
name referred to messages sent via the PSTN. In my youth "cable" was quite
often used as a synonym for "telegram", again sent over the PSTN, especially
if it was longer than a single page, as in a press report.


PSTN? cable as telegram is ok with me, but I think of a cable as
something slightly different, possibly associated with ships(?).

So I would be interested in knowing how widespread is the idea that "landline"
excludes "cable", because to me "cable" is included in the more general term
"landline", and the opposite of "landline" is not "cable", but "wireless" (and
"wireless" includes "satellite").


I exclude it, but see that technology is moving on, and the cable I
thought of as only a supplier of television shows can now deliver other
information. Since it is tethered to the ground, it can be a landline as
well.

Wireless also includes satellite, thought the method of transmission is
"invisible" to my use of the word.

--
charles






Glass fibre, glass, fibre, Fibe (TM): Glass fibre cable for digital
signals. Carries everything.

Satellite: for digital signals, even in the analog TV age, carrying TV.
Internet and phone service also available. Most people refer only to TV
services with this term, e.g., see Netflix as different from "regular"
TV only for choice and price.

Microwave: originally used to replace buried or pole-hung wires/cables
in sparsely settled areas (Canada is big ;-)), thus reducing maintenance
work. Carry phone and TV. I believe they were digital from the beginning.

Cell: microwave spectrum used for cellular (mobile) phones.

GPS: digital satellite signals used by GPS (Satnav) devices.

FWIW, in mid-northern Ontario you will see groups of towers festooned
with a dozen or more antennas each.

AFAICT, most people think more in terms of the devices than the means
used to deliver the signals.

Footnote: The first cable operators used splitters and amplifiers to
share their own antenna's signals with neighbours, then all or parts of
small communities. The TV networks of course were livid at this "theft"
of their signals, and tried to horn in. Eventually, litigation and
legislation regularised the cable business.

Then the telecoms bought up the cable operators, with the result we have
now: a de facto monopoly of the three major telecoms, who offer basic
services at "international" rates, and charge for every add-on to the
point where most households pay $100 to $200 per month for their
combination TV, Internet, and cell and/or landline phones. Eg, the
landline bill includes a "network access fee" and a "touch tone fee".
Really.

In the last 10-15 years, the telecoms have bought content providers and
producers, as well as sport teams and such, so that we have the most
thoroughly integrated information/entertainment system in the world.

Have a good day,

  #75  
Old December 15th 14, 08:12 PM posted to alt.usage.english,alt.windows7.general
John Varela
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Cable, landline, wireless and satellite

On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 17:55:30 UTC, Charles Bishop
wrote:

In article ,
Steve Hayes wrote:

[snip discussion in another group]

I suppose this discussion now belongs in alt.usage.english, rather than here.


"Here" is aue. [This could be a discussion of the terms needed if we get
time travel.]

I've now realised that some people have been using "landline" to mean
something different from I mean by it, so having cleared up that confusion it
becomes a matter of English usage rather than one of communications
technology.

In my English "landline" means signals carried overland by electrical wires,
or cables, or optical fibre cables that are on the ground, under the ground,
or carried above the ground on poles. As opposed to "wireless", which to me
also means "cableless".


Landline for me omits "cable" which is coaxial cable (single carrier
surrounded by a "shield" of braided wires). It refers to the telephone
twisted pairs brought into the house by the telephone company.

However, reading your discussion I now see that this is outdated
probably and can be used for any wire/cable that isn't part of a
wireless (OTA, supported by distribution by antennas) network.

To me "cable" means a multistrand wire, or miltistand optical fibres, whether
coaxial, or used to support the weight of a cable car.


Me too, but context is necessary for the cable car.

There used to be a firm called "Cable and wireless", and the "Cable" in their
name referred to messages sent via the PSTN. In my youth "cable" was quite
often used as a synonym for "telegram", again sent over the PSTN, especially
if it was longer than a single page, as in a press report.


PSTN? cable as telegram is ok with me, but I think of a cable as
something slightly different, possibly associated with ships(?).

So I would be interested in knowing how widespread is the idea that "landline"
excludes "cable", because to me "cable" is included in the more general term
"landline", and the opposite of "landline" is not "cable", but "wireless" (and
"wireless" includes "satellite").


I exclude it, but see that technology is moving on, and the cable I
thought of as only a supplier of television shows can now deliver other
information. Since it is tethered to the ground, it can be a landline as
well.

Wireless also includes satellite, thought the method of transmission is
"invisible" to my use of the word.


We have Verizon FiOS, which brings TV, Internet, and telephone on a
fiber to an interface box on the side of the house. On our side of
that interface box we have three lines: coax, ethernet, and POTS.
That last connects to five handsets, one of which is a rotary dial
and three are 5 GHz cordless. I count all five as landlines. Well,
they are only one line, but you know what I mean.

--
John Varela
 




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