Cop-out or valid for M-Audio to say they "don't support" their cardrunning with XP MCE?

I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running under
XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of their
hardware with this O/S.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
"this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
don't support it".

??

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is? Is there
something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed
that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to have
the same look as the other versions?

Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions don't
cause? Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including older
versions of things that aren't certified for it such as Soundforge 5
and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

Doc wrote:
I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running
under XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any
of their hardware with this O/S.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
"this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
don't support it".

??

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is? Is there
something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed
that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to
have the same look as the other versions?

Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions
don't cause? Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including
older versions of things that aren't certified for it such as
Soundforge 5 and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

Can you download drivers for Windows XP Professional?

Same thing. Windows XP Media Center is basically Windows XP Professional
with the Media Center components and lacking a couple of domain related
features...

Hardware manufacturers seem to pick and choose like this to save their
support time.

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

"Doc" wrote in message
...
I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running under
XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of their
hardware with this O/S.

M-Audio isn't alone in this by any means. The list is more than a few
lines.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell.

If that's the case for you, I would suggest that you might safely invest in
lottery tickets.

Many people have *no luck at all* installing m-Audio or DigiDesign hardware
or software, or other audio-recording related devices from other
manufacturers on MCE; or in the case of actually getting it installed, not
having it run reliably or usably.

That unreliability is why the manufacturers do not endorse it or support it.

Their response is
"this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
don't support it".

Yes. They can't tell if it will work or not, and can't fix MCE.

MCE is different enough to require a full test programe.

They may have gotten into a test cycle and realized that some of the
services in MCE prevent the hardware and software from functioning properly,
predictably or reliably.

In this case the only honest thing to do is to say that MCE isn't supported,
rather than telling customers that it will work with your hardware.

??

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?

They know that often enough it doesn't, and whether it does or not is
beyond their control. It apparently doesn't work to their satisfaction,
and if it doesn't, may not be fixable by any means other than a different
OS.

DigiDesign does the same thing. The mBox and ProTools aren't supported
under MCE either. Same with Presonus.

They know that, for example, the extra services running in MCE get in the
way of recording, and there's no point in wasting time trying to make it
work by trying to cripple the OS.

Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is?

Yes, it's simply stated as this: MCE is unsuitable for this purpose.

Here's the way somebody at Presonus put it:

http://www.presonus.com/forums/archi...php/t-131.html

"Like the article says, Media Center edition is not supported, and we have
certainly encountered users that have irresolvable issues with that OS.
Other users have had good reports, but as far as in-house testing goes, we
cannot verify stable functionality with XP Media Center, and therefore do
not reccommend it."


Is there
something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed

Yes. It's just not suitable for recording digital audio in a multi-track
context, which is what the m-Audio and DigiDesign and Presonus etc, hardware
and sofware is for.

that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP

It's not *wholly* unlike them, but it's different enough to render it
unsuitable for use with those kinds of hardware and software.

and just happens to have
the same look as the other versions?

Pretty much.

Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions don't
cause?

You bet. That's why these manufacturers don't support it.

Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including older
versions of things that aren't certified for it such as Soundforge 5
and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

I've seen a number of posts in other groups from people who can NOT get
either m-Audio or Digidesign hardware or software to work properly in MCE,
even if they managed to get it installed. They would up replacing both
the audio hardware AND the PC.

And, for example,

http://www.swee****er.com/sweetcare/...&keyword=30163
=======
"Article # 30163Date: 2006-01-05
Problem:
Windows XP Media Center compatiblity alert (updated 2/12/2007).

Solution:
Windows XP Media Center is a version of Windows specifically designed for
integration of TV and radio features into the operating system. Microsoft
gives the following information:


Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005, available preinstalled on Media Center
PCs, allows you to pause and rewind live TV or radio, digitally record an
entire TV series or program category, watch DVDs and videos, organize and
play your music collection, and showcase digital photos.
Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 makes it easier to access digital
entertainment wherever you are. Here are some of the top features:

* Multi-tuner support (record two shows at the same time and watch another
previously recorded show)
* Support for digital and high-definition local TV
* Built-in CD and DVD burning
* Windows Movie Maker 2.1 with DVD burning
* Internet radio
* Enhanced setup wizard for easier installation

(from: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/m...ation/faq.mspx )

You can also read more about it he
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_xp_media_center


Needless to say, these features, while useful for live media purposes, tend
to significantly interfere with the vast majority of audio applications.
Here is an (unofficial) list of software and hardware we have found to be
unsupported in XP Media Center:

.. Digidesign Pro Tools (all versions).
.. All M-Audio software and hardware.
.. All Steinberg software.
.. Cakewalk SONAR (all versions).
.. The iLok.
.. Syncrosoft USB dongles.
.. Focusrite interfaces.
.. Lexicon Omega/Alpha/Lambda.
.. Edirol interfaces.
.. Alesis USB and Firewire mixers.
.. All MOTU hardware and software.
.. All E-MU hardware and software.
.. Native Instruments software.
.. Waves software.
.. Mackie Spike. Tracktion has been known to work, but is not guaranteed.
.. Novation X-Station series.
.. TC Eletric PowerCore series.
.. Universal Audio UAD-1 cards.
.. All RME hardware.
.. All PreSonus hardware.
.. All TASCAM software and hardware.
.. Blue Snowball and Samson C01 USB Microphones.
.. Line 6 USB hardware and drivers


Keep in mind that this is an unofficial list. These are simply products that
we have found, through our experience and through manufacturer requirements,
to not function properly in XP Media Center. However, you may experience
full functionality with any of the aforementioned products. Swee****er can
only provide support for either XP Home or XP Professional. These are the
versions that we at Swee****er install on our Creation Station series, and
the only versions we have found to be fully compatible with everything we
sell."

http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?...0&itemid=22905

"Not Supported with any version of Pro Tools:

Windows XP Professional x64 Edition

Windows XP Media Center Edition"

http://www.recordingwebsite.com/foru...ic=1995.0;wap2

"Anyone Know A Midi Controller that works with windows xp media center
edition? There are practically NO midis i can find to be compatable. I
wouldnt have bought this stupid laptop if I would have known, because the
whole point in buying this laptop was for using midi live!! Has anyone
successfully used this OS with a midi? If so WHICH , because I will buy
whatever works"
=======

HTH
-pk

"Shenan Stanley" wrote in message
...
Doc wrote:
I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running
under XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any
of their hardware with this O/S.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
"this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
don't support it".

??

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is? Is there
something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed
that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to
have the same look as the other versions?

Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions
don't cause? Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including
older versions of things that aren't certified for it such as
Soundforge 5 and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

Can you download drivers for Windows XP Professional?

Unfortunately, XP Pro drivers don't seem to solve the problems between MCE
and audio recording gear, unless they're part of a clean XP Pro install.

Same thing. Windows XP Media Center is basically Windows XP Professional
with the Media Center components

And those components are what cause the problems with recording, and that is
why virtually no audio interface (as opposed to soundcard) manufacturer
supports MCE.

The same kinds of problems exist with tablet editions of Windows XP.

and lacking a couple of domain related features...

Hardware manufacturers seem to pick and choose like this to save their
support time.

I think you'll find that the problems between MCE and audio recording
hardware and software are rather more fundamental than this, and that the
manufacturers are NOT "picking and choosing" in this case "to save their
support time". Instead, they are trying to save their customers from a
bad experience.

These manufacturers, like M-Audio, DigiDesign, Presonus, Line 6, Steinberg,
produce gear primarily intended for multitrack audio recording and
production.

They're faced with an OS that has a variety of services that in-house
testing and customer experience has shown to prevent audio recording
hardware from functioning properly. Their gear just does not work
reliably under MCE.

Virtually *none* of the manufacturers of real audio interfaces or audio
recording software support MCE. They can't fix it.

If you've just spent hours recording a performance, only to find it ruined
and rendered worthless by clicks and pops and dropouts you eventually find
were actually introduced by OS services, this is far beyond a matter of
saving support time.

It's a matter of ensuring reliable, predictable operation, and that has been
demonstrated as being too often unavailable with MCE.

HTH
-pk



--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Apparently there are at least enough problems that they have chosen
not to support that configuration.
Non support does not mean it will not work.
In fact many users successfully use various products in nonsupported
configurations.

The bottom line is if you have problems and you are in a non supported
path, they can quickly refuse you support so their resources can be
directed to those with supported configurations.
Non supported is not the same as will not work properly.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar



"Doc" wrote in message
...
I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running under
XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of
their
hardware with this O/S.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
"this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
don't support it".

??

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is? Is there
something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed
that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to
have
the same look as the other versions?

Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions
don't
cause? Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including older
versions of things that aren't certified for it such as Soundforge 5
and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

Doc wrote:
I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running
under XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any
of their hardware with this O/S.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response
is "this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but
we don't support it".

??

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is? Is there
something fundamentally different about the way XP MCE is designed
that it's wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to
have the same look as the other versions?

Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other versions
don't cause? Everything I've ever run on it runs fine, including
older versions of things that aren't certified for it such as
Soundforge 5 and Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

Shenan Stanley wrote:
Can you download drivers for Windows XP Professional?
Same thing. Windows XP Media Center is basically Windows XP
Professional with the Media Center components
and lacking a couple of domain related features...

Hardware manufacturers seem to pick and choose like this to save
their support time.

Patrick Keenan wrote:
Unfortunately, XP Pro drivers don't seem to solve the problems
between MCE and audio recording gear, unless they're part of a
clean XP Pro install. And those components are what cause the problems
with recording,
[Windows Media Center Components]
and that is why virtually no audio interface (as opposed to
soundcard) manufacturer supports MCE.

The same kinds of problems exist with tablet editions of Windows XP.
I think you'll find that the problems between MCE and audio
recording hardware and software are rather more fundamental than
this, and that the manufacturers are NOT "picking and choosing" in
this case "to save their support time". Instead, they are trying
to save their customers from a bad experience.

These manufacturers, like M-Audio, DigiDesign, Presonus, Line 6,
Steinberg, produce gear primarily intended for multitrack audio
recording and production.

They're faced with an OS that has a variety of services that
in-house testing and customer experience has shown to prevent
audio recording hardware from functioning properly. Their gear
just does not work reliably under MCE.

Virtually *none* of the manufacturers of real audio interfaces or
audio recording software support MCE. They can't fix it.

If you've just spent hours recording a performance, only to find it
ruined and rendered worthless by clicks and pops and dropouts you
eventually find were actually introduced by OS services, this is
far beyond a matter of saving support time.

It's a matter of ensuring reliable, predictable operation, and that
has been demonstrated as being too often unavailable with MCE.


Interesting and informational response, Patrick. I appreciate it!

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

On Dec 9, 9:04 pm, Doc wrote:
I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's running under
XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't support any of their
hardware with this O/S.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their response is
"this doesn't mean you won't experience full functionality but we
don't support it".

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or don't they?
Can someone clarify what the rationale behind this is?

XP Media Center was a very short-lived version and M-Audio is a
relatively small company. Most of their customers for products like
yours are at least semi-professionals who wouldn't be caught dead
using a computer running Media Center. While they may have tested the
card with MC when that version of Windows was first released, they
don't keep up with updates and don't now or care if Microsoft makes
changes to the OS that might make the M-Audio driver incompatible.

As long as you don't make any changes to your computer, your setup
will continue to work as well as it does now. But if Microsoft makes
an update that breaks your setup, don't expect a revised version of
the M-Audio driver that accommodates that change.

That's what "we don't support it" means.

On Dec 10, 7:23 am, Mike Rivers wrote:

As long as you don't make any changes to your computer, your setup
will continue to work as well as it does now. But if Microsoft makes
an update that breaks your setup, don't expect a revised version of
the M-Audio driver that accommodates that change.

That's what "we don't support it" means.


Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
into XP Pro. The only reason I have it is that's what came with this
computer. I tried the media center remote once when I first got it to
verify it worked and haven't even looked at it since. Apparently its
big feature is it lets you use your computer sort of like Tivo.

If it ever gives me problems, I'll try the disable procedure but since
it ain't broke now, etc.

"Shenan Stanley" wrote in message

Doc wrote:
I had a question about my M-Audio Audiophile 2496. It's
running under XP Media Center. M-Audio replied that they don't
support any of their hardware with this O/S.

The card works like a champ as far as I can tell. Their
response is "this doesn't mean you won't experience full
functionality but we don't support it".

??

Do they know whether their card works with this O/S or
don't they? Can someone clarify what the rationale
behind this is? Is there something fundamentally
different about the way XP MCE is designed that it's
wholly unlike other versions of XP and just happens to have the same look
as the other versions?

Anyone experience weird problems with XP MCE that other
versions don't cause? Everything I've ever run on it
runs fine, including older versions of things that
aren't certified for it such as Soundforge 5 and
Cakewalk Pro Audio 8.

They run fine superficially, and will run fine for some people who are
lucky.

Shenan Stanley wrote:

Can you download drivers for Windows XP Professional?
Same thing. Windows XP Media Center is basically
Windows XP Professional with the Media Center components
and lacking a couple of domain related features...

It's the media center components that are the rub.

Hardware manufacturers seem to pick and choose like this
to save their support time.

No, they sometimes just have to face up to some of the nastier aspects of
reality, and Windows MCE is IME such a thing.

Patrick Keenan wrote:

Unfortunately, XP Pro drivers don't seem to solve the
problems between MCE and audio recording gear, unless
they're part of a clean XP Pro install. And those components are what
cause the problems with recording,
[Windows Media Center Components]
and that is why virtually no audio interface (as opposed
to soundcard) manufacturer supports MCE.

The same kinds of problems exist with tablet editions of
Windows XP. I think you'll find that the problems
between MCE and audio recording hardware and software are rather more
fundamental than this, and that the manufacturers are
NOT "picking and choosing" in this case "to save their
support time". Instead, they are trying to save their
customers from a bad experience.

Agreed.

These manufacturers, like M-Audio, DigiDesign, Presonus,
Line 6, Steinberg, produce gear primarily intended for
multitrack audio recording and production.

They're faced with an OS that has a variety of services
that in-house testing and customer experience has shown to
prevent audio recording hardware from functioning properly.

Agreed. MCE was not a bad idea, but the execution is something else.

The problem with MCE is not what in it necessarily does, but what it can do
under some circumstances.

Their gear just does not work reliably under MCE.

Oh, I suspect it can work well, but with MCE it is easy to set the stage for
disaster.

Virtually *none* of the manufacturers of real audio
interfaces or audio recording software support MCE. They can't fix it.

If you understand the potential of MCE, you understand the potential for
disaster. In MCE it is very easy to set up a timer-driven event that fires
up the TV capture card in the backghround and writes a monster video file to
the hard drive. The TV capture card includes a MPEG encoder that may be
hardware or may be software. If its software, it can take up most of the
CPU. If you're capturing a really nice-looking HDTV program you are
basically writing maybe 5 meg/sec to the hard drive.

What happens if you are trying to record some audio at the same time?

If you've just spent hours recording a performance, only
to find it ruined and rendered worthless by clicks and
pops and dropouts you eventually find were actually
introduced by OS services, this is far beyond a matter of saving support
time.

It's a matter of ensuring reliable, predictable
operation, and that has been demonstrated as being too
often unavailable with MCE.

Interesting and informational response, Patrick. I
appreciate it!

IME he's speaking the truth.

On Dec 10, 7:40 am, Doc wrote:

Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
into XP Pro. The only reason I have it is that's what came with this
computer.

I think that's the reason anyone has Media Center. It apparently
wasn't a very popular idea.

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 04:40:49 -0800 (PST), Doc
wrote:

Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
into XP Pro.

This keeps being mentioned, but no-one can ever quote just WHAT needs
doing :-) If there's a set of changes to make, would someone please
post it?

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 06:07:38 -0800 (PST), Mike Rivers
wrote:

Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
into XP Pro. The only reason I have it is that's what came with this
computer.

I think that's the reason anyone has Media Center. It apparently
wasn't a very popular idea.

A lot of computers pre-loaded with MCE were recently on the market
here in the UK at attractive prices. I know more than one user who
bought one thinking "Media Centre - thet's bound to solve all my
problems working with sound and video!".

Not sure what planet you guys are on, but MCE was hardly a "short lived" or
unpopular idea.

The XP version of Media Center has been sold since 2002. MS has sold
millions of copies (and continues to be sell this version) . The Media
Center features are now a part of Vista Home Premium and Ultimate.

There really isn't a way to "de-media center" it, you can't just uninstall
the Media Center bits. You can purposely mess up the install to end up with
just the XP Pro part, but I'm not sure if other apps might still see it at
Media Center anyway.
--
James
Orlando (Goofy says "Hey"), Florida


"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
On Dec 10, 7:40 am, Doc wrote:

Interesting. Well, if I ever encounter problems, there's apparently a
procedure to "de-media center" it, reportedly essentially turning it
into XP Pro. The only reason I have it is that's what came with this
computer.

I think that's the reason anyone has Media Center. It apparently
wasn't a very popular idea.

Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people as a PVR/cable box
replacement, does a great job, it's also available in Vista.

--

----
Crosspost, do not multipost http://www.blakjak.demon.co.uk/mul_crss.htm
How to ask a question http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
__________________________________________________ _______________________________


"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...

I think that's the reason anyone has Media Center. It apparently
wasn't a very popular idea.

"David B." wrote in message

Do you even know what Media Center is/does?
It's been around for 5 years and is used by many people
as a PVR/cable box replacement, does a great job, it's
also available in Vista.

Compared to running any of the PVR software packages that are sold with
video tuner and capture cards, it really doesn't seem to do anything that is
terribly unique.