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#1
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IP over copper
Hi All,
I came across a customer who was using "IP over copper". Used four loops (pairs) and gave 6 MB up and down synchronous. At first I thought it was a T1. Charter is available in the area at 105 MB down and 16 MB up. Why would you want to use a more expensive IP over Copper? Am I missing something? -T |
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#2
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IP over copper
On 03/06/2019 23:53, T wrote:
Am I missing something? Yes you are missing to realise that you are a known rogue trader who is defrauding unsuspecting customers. In my country, I would have reported you to our trading standards officer who would have revoked your license to trade. -- With over 950 million devices now running Windows 10, customer satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows. |
#3
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IP over copper
T wrote:
I came across a customer who was using "IP over copper". Used four loops (pairs) and gave 6 MB up and down synchronous. At first I thought it was a T1. Charter is available in the area at 105 MB down and 16 MB up. Why would you want to use a more expensive IP over Copper? Am I missing something? I didn't know what you meant by "IP over copper". Should've been "Ethernet over copper"; however, wires are used with Ethernet and those wires are usually copper (unless fiber is used), so I was confused by the redundancy in the naming. Turns out it should be named "Ethernet first mile, then twisted pair." Then I read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_copper Yuck! Is this customer way out in the boonies where DSL or cable are not available, so they're stuck sharing an Ethernet hub that then goes over old POTS lines? It has the same disadvantages as DSL that also uses the old POTS twisted pair (except EoC usually has the twisted pair run underground instead of across telephone poles). The farther the customer is from the central office (CO), the slower the connection. If the customer is paying a higher price for a business-class service tier over EoC, the customer should be complaining to the ISP for not getting what they pay for. They might also check what that ISP cites for effective bandwidth at different distances from the ISP's CO. The customer might be at the limit for distance, or worse, and won't ever get the advertised bandwidth for an endpoint close to the CO. EoC twisted pair has double the number of wires for the old POTS lines: 8 instead of 4. How many wires are bonded dictates the bandwidth. A single pair should deliver 5 MB/s (near the CO). Up to all 8 of the pairs can be bonded for a max of 40 MB/s (again near the CO). EoC has a range of only a few miles, with decreasing bandwidth as the distance increases. Because of the short serviceable distance, EoC is sometimes call Metro Ethernet: it isn't usable very far. First find out how many EoC twisted pair are bonded. If only 1 pair, the reported 6 MB/s is very close to the 5 MB/s per bond. The customer's ISP should know how many wires are bonded per the service level the customer is paying that ISP. "Bonding" is not some soldering or splicing of TP wires together. The scheme sounds familiar to the number of channels in a cable modem dictating the total overal bandwidth to the customer. With cable, provisioning it decides how many channels are available (and why users had to move to DOCSIS 3.x modems to get more channels for higher overall bandwidth). I suspect the bonding of TP is performed at the EoC modem. As with cable modem that get provisioned to bond channels together up to the speed tier the customer paid for, the EoC modem is probably where the bonding is perform of the TP wires (5MB/s per bond). Have the customer call his ISP, report the problem (if he really is paying for more than 5 MB/s) and, if the customer deserves more bandwidth, have the ISP re-provision the EoC modem. If the customer bought his own EoC modem, he'll still have to get his ISP to provision that modem as to how many TP are bonded logically together to up the bandwidth. I've never played with EoC modems to know if the user can change the number of TP bonds. Can't do it with cable modems (well, maybe you can but the ISP will only use how many you paid for), so probably can't do it at the customer end for EoC modems, either. |
#4
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IP over copper
T wrote:
Hi All, I came across a customer who was using "IP over copper". Used four loops (pairs) and gave 6 MB up and down synchronous. At first I thought it was a T1. Charter is available in the area at 105 MB down and 16 MB up. Why would you want to use a more expensive IP over Copper? Am I missing something? -T T, About 15 years ago I had a client who had 2 T-1's bound together to provide ~3Mb/s up/down. The T-1's were around $800 a piece per month. The cable provider in the area started offering 25/5 service for around $300 per month. The client refused the new service! His reasons? The internet access provided was not "Business" class. He felt the technology was not mature enough and did not feel confident that the "Uptime" would be consistent. So he continued to pay $1600 a month for several years. I don't know the reasons your client is sticking with the ethernet over copper option but he may have some outdated prejudices about newer technology. Have you asked them their reasons? JT -- |
#5
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IP over copper
On 6/3/19 6:08 PM, JT wrote:
Have you asked them their reasons? Did not ask. I did notice that they bought their VoIP phones service from the same guy that provided the IP over Copper. |
#6
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IP over copper
On 6/3/19 5:53 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
T wrote: I came across a customer who was using "IP over copper". Used four loops (pairs) and gave 6 MB up and down synchronous. At first I thought it was a T1. Charter is available in the area at 105 MB down and 16 MB up. Why would you want to use a more expensive IP over Copper? Am I missing something? I didn't know what you meant by "IP over copper". Should've been "Ethernet over copper"; however, wires are used with Ethernet and those wires are usually copper (unless fiber is used), so I was confused by the redundancy in the naming. Turns out it should be named "Ethernet first mile, then twisted pair." Then I read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_copper Checking my notes, it is "Ethernet over Copper". My bad Yuck! Is this customer way out in the boonies where DSL or cable are not available, so they're stuck sharing an Ethernet hub that then goes over old POTS lines? It has the same disadvantages as DSL that also uses the old POTS twisted pair (except EoC usually has the twisted pair run underground instead of across telephone poles). The farther the customer is from the central office (CO), the slower the connection. If the customer is paying a higher price for a business-class service tier over EoC, the customer should be complaining to the ISP for not getting what they pay for. They might also check what that ISP cites for effective bandwidth at different distances from the ISP's CO. The customer might be at the limit for distance, or worse, and won't ever get the advertised bandwidth for an endpoint close to the CO. EoC twisted pair has double the number of wires for the old POTS lines: 8 instead of 4. How many wires are bonded dictates the bandwidth. A single pair should deliver 5 MB/s (near the CO). Up to all 8 of the pairs can be bonded for a max of 40 MB/s (again near the CO). EoC has a range of only a few miles, with decreasing bandwidth as the distance increases. Because of the short serviceable distance, EoC is sometimes call Metro Ethernet: it isn't usable very far. First find out how many EoC twisted pair are bonded. Four loops If only 1 pair, the reported 6 MB/s is very close to the 5 MB/s per bond. The customer's ISP should know how many wires are bonded per the service level the customer is paying that ISP. "Bonding" is not some soldering or splicing of TP wires together. The scheme sounds familiar to the number of channels in a cable modem dictating the total overal bandwidth to the customer. With cable, provisioning it decides how many channels are available (and why users had to move to DOCSIS 3.x modems to get more channels for higher overall bandwidth). I suspect the bonding of TP is performed at the EoC modem. As with cable modem that get provisioned to bond channels together up to the speed tier the customer paid for, the EoC modem is probably where the bonding is perform of the TP wires (5MB/s per bond). Have the customer call his ISP, report the problem (if he really is paying for more than 5 MB/s) and, if the customer deserves more bandwidth, have the ISP re-provision the EoC modem. If the customer bought his own EoC modem, It is rented he'll still have to get his ISP to provision that modem as to how many TP are bonded logically together to up the bandwidth. I've never played with EoC modems to know if the user can change the number of TP bonds. Can't do it with cable modems (well, maybe you can but the ISP will only use how many you paid for), so probably can't do it at the customer end for EoC modems, either. When I get to know them a bit better, I will ask why they just don't switch to Charter, especially since it is already in their building. And there goes the mystery about EoC. It is not serving a special purpose for them. |
#7
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IP over copper
On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 15:53:29 -0700, T wrote:
Hi All, I came across a customer who was using "IP over copper". Used four loops (pairs) and gave 6 MB up and down synchronous. At first I thought it was a T1. Charter is available in the area at 105 MB down and 16 MB up. Why would you want to use a more expensive IP over Copper? Am I missing something? That customer was living in, The Twilight Zone. -T |
#8
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IP over copper
T schreef op 04-06-2019
in : Hi All, I came across a customer who was using "IP over copper". Used four loops (pairs) and gave 6 MB up and down synchronous. At first I thought it was a T1. Charter is available in the area at 105 MB down and 16 MB up. Why would you want to use a more expensive IP over Copper? Am I missing something? VDSL Bonding? A way to keep use the existing old infra instead of investing in fiber. -- MdW. |
#9
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Ethernet over copper
On 6/4/19 1:27 AM, Machiel de Wit wrote:
T schreef op 04-06-2019 in : Hi All, I came across a customer who was using "IP over copper".Â* Used four loops (pairs) and gave 6 MB up and down synchronous.Â* At first I thought it was a T1. Charter is available in the area at 105 MB down and 16 MB up. Why would you want to use a more expensive IP over Copper? Am I missing something? VDSL Bonding? A way to keep use the existing old infra instead of investing in fiber. I goofed the description. It is Ethernet over Copper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_copper |
#10
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Ethernet over copper
T wrote:
I goofed the description.Â* It is Ethernet over Copper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_copper The usual name for it over here is EFM (ethernet in the first mile) they're generally very reliable circuits and tend to be used for dedicated VoIP connections, if using multiple pairs then if one goes faulty the speed goes down, rather than losing connectivity altogether. |
#11
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Ethernet over copper
On 6/4/19 10:50 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
T wrote: I goofed the description.Â* It is Ethernet over Copper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_copper The usual name for it over here is EFM (ethernet in the first mile) they're generally very reliable circuits and tend to be used for dedicated VoIP connections, if using multiple pairs then if one goes faulty the speed goes down, rather than losing connectivity altogether. That explains it. Thank you! |
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