Is this Costco laptop at $350 item number 1272966 with Windows S a good deal?

Andy Burns said:

Spec says it uses M.2 SSD, you'd want to find out what type of notch it
has, i.e. whether it's SATA or NVMe

Thank you for pointing out that the 128GB SSD is "M.2" which I know nothing
about yet where I'd likely want to replace in the future with a 500GB or
even 1TB normal platter drive I would think.

Now that my wife already bought the laptop, the questions are more urgent
to find the answers to (she was worried they'd run out of stock).

This says that the "Non-Volatile Memory Express (NVMe) protocol" connects
to the motherboard using something it calls an "M.2 PCIe slot."
https://www.groovypost.com/howto/ins...sd-hard-drive/

The article says most drives nowadays use something called "M.2 2280 form
factor" which, if that is all the laptop supports, immediately precludes
any chance of a real hard drive fitting inside.
https://www.groovypost.com/wp-conten...8-1280x853.jpg

That article said the port size is "quite shocking", outlined here
https://www.groovypost.com/wp-conten...t-1280x853.jpg

This article shows that the M.2 drive is really a card that doesn't look
anything like a real 2.5 inch hard disk drive so based on what you told me
where I don't know yet whether a real hard drive will ever fit inside this
thin laptop.
https://www.howtogeek.com/345988/how...sd-in-your-pc/

To see if a real 2.5 inch hard drive will even fit inside this thin laptop,
I found this site for checking what drives are available for any computer
https://www.crucial.com/usa/en/compa...hp-14-df0023cl
which says
Storage: SATA 3 - 6Gb/s
Drive Interface: SATA/M.2 PCIe/SATA
Drive Form Factor: 2.5" / M.2_2280
Slots: 2 (2 banks of 1)
Standard Memory: 4GB removable
Maximum Memory: 16GB

What do you make of the form factor, which seems to say this laptop can
handle a real 2.5 inch hard disk drive (in addition to M.2_2280 cards)?

In article , PT French
wrote:


Spec says it uses M.2 SSD, you'd want to find out what type of notch it
has, i.e. whether it's SATA or NVMe

Thank you for pointing out that the 128GB SSD is "M.2" which I know nothing
about yet where I'd likely want to replace in the future with a 500GB or
even 1TB normal platter drive I would think.

you think wrong, plus a normal platter drive would be a significant
downgrade.

and another nymshift has been detected.

PT French wrote:

I'd likely want to replace in the future with a 500GB or
even 1TB normal platter drive I would think.

It may be that it can only accept M.2 form factor which is physically
much smaller than 2.5" SATA form factor ...

e.g.
https://assets.pcmag.com/media/images/573385-different-sizes-of-apacer-m-2-ssds.jpg?thumb=y&width=980&height=305

PT French wrote:
Paul said:

"I was able to disable the "S" in Windows 10 in about 1 minute
(from the computer start button, you go to the microsoft store,
and select "Switch out of S mode" - seriously that easy)."

Thank you for finding that out as I didn't know what S mode was and my wife
already bought the laptop since she is planning to send our first born to
college and she is anal about getting everything ready (her backpack is
already being packed with emergency power devices for example).

I think it is important to permanently get out of S mode where I don't know
yet if I would need a Windows Microsoft Account to switch out of S mode?

Windows 10 in S mode FAQ
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...-in-s-mode-faq
"If you want to install an app that isn't available in the Microsoft Store,
you'll need to permanently switch out of S mode. There's no charge to
switch out of S mode, but you won't be able to turn it back on. If you're
blocked from switching and your device belongs to an organization, check
with your administrator. Your organization can choose to keep all devices
in S mode.

On your PC running Windows 10 in S mode, open Settings Update &
Security Activation.

Find the Switch to Windows 10 Home or Switch to Windows 10 Pro section,
then select the Go to the Store link.

Don't select the link under Upgrade your edition of Windows. That's a
different process that will keep you in S mode.

On the page that appears in the Microsoft Store (Switch out of S mode or a
similar page), select the Get button. After you confirm this action, you'll
be able to install apps from outside the Microsoft Store."

On StackExchange someone said to upgrade the Windows Store App first.
https://superuser.com/questions/1350...home-in-s-mode


Another question is about future proofing the laptop where I don't yet know
if you can just install Windows 10 Home if you get a new hard drive?

Cnet calls S mode a walled garden where it says that if you switch out of S
mode you can go back to S mode (at least on a "surface laptop" you can) but
I don't think anyone would want to go back to S mode anyway.
https://www.cnet.com/news/how-to-swi...nd-back-again/

I haven't found anything yet to tell me whether I can install Microsoft
Windows 10 on the hardware if I replace the SSD with a bigger hard drive.

The Windows Store can do operations not involving money,
without an MSA (Microsoft Account) or a credit card. Simply use
the App Store, and see what response you get. You shouldn't
need to do anything, like if you wanted to download your
free copy of Solitaire, or if you wanted to install some
Windows Subsystem for Linux package (the so-called Bash shell
with Ubuntu software offered).

S mode restricts program execution to HTML/JS (App Store programs)
and won't run Win32 (the programs you make for yourself with MinGW).

S mode is nominally "more secure", because the Win32 attack surface
(whatever that means) is removed. It's a walled garden. If the
computer is unsure of the veracity of an HTML/JS package from
the Store, it downloads the package again. When you install
a Windows Upgrade (like 1903), then after the system comes back
up, there will be an interval where it downloads your (registered)
Apps again. This would update them, at the very least.

Once S mode is removed, you have the flexibility of using applications
of either type. If you bring a copy of Sality malware (win32) onto
the machine, it would destroy each and every EXE it could find
(that's an example of a relatively rare, destructive malware).

When you see an EXE on a machine, those are not all EXE files.
The EXE file of an HTML/JS App is a "manifest file". The header
is a "fake PE32 header". If you double click, the screen flashes
and the "conventional Win32 loader" exits immediately, because
the header is really "empty". At the tail end of the EXE file
is a list of files needing to be loaded by the App Loader. I've
not seen a detailed description of the launch sequence for App Store
packages. If the App is launched "in the appropriate way", the
fake PE32 header is ignored, and the manifest is read as if it
was a text file.

*******

If the machine comes with Windows 10 Home SKU, then you should
be able to reinstall it from a Win10 x86 or Win10 x64 DVD. The
license key is stored in the laptop ACPI table (MSDM table).
This activates the OS automatically. You don't need to type
in a key, or use MagicalJellyBean on it. This is different than
the old method, where a SLIC table declared "I'm a Dell" and
a Dell OS (WinXP/Vista/Win7) would activate. The new method,
the key in the table is for one OS only. Today, that would
be a Win10 key, and you could not activate Dell Win8 with it,
if you bought a Dell Win10 machine.

Free Upgrade copies of Windows 10 (all mine being based on
Win7 or Win8.1 qualifying OSes), they will show a generic
key. A lot of people then, will see "3V66T" if they were to
use MagicalJellyBean. And attempting to use these keys to
do anything (bring up a new computer that had no OS), would be useless.
Your new laptop should not list one of these keys. My laptop
was Upgraded from Win7 Home Premium x64 to Win10 Home x64, and the
key would be the middle one as a consequence.

VK7JG-NPHTM-C97JM-9MPGT-3V66T (Windows 10 Professional) --- X79 desktop
YTMG3-N6DKC-DKB77-7M9GH-8HVX7 (Windows 10 Home - multi language) --- laptop!
BT79Q-G7N6G-PGBYW-4YWX6-6F4BT (Windows 10 Home - single language)

My laptop was "multi-language", because Acer made it an
English/French design for Canada, and consequently it is
declared as a multi-language unit. I had to disable the French
capability, because the machine would switch modes in the
middle of a sentence, and I couldn't figure out what hot
key sequence I was typing by accident.

You install the 32 bit (x86) version of Windows 10, if you
want to run older 16 bit software. The x64 version of Windows 10
will run 64 bit (PE32+) and 32 bit (PE32) applications, but
not 16 bit ones. If you install the x86 version, chances
are only 3.2GB of RAM or less will report in. If you had
a machine with 16GB of RAM, 13GB of it will be "ignored"
in a sense. That's the main incentive to install a 64 bit OS today.

The Adobe rental software (Creative Suite?) is only available
as 64 bit software. It's also possible that a few device drivers,
new versions of the driver are only available in 64 bit flavor.
So the industry is nibbling away at "32-bit land". It won't
last forever. Your laptop would come with a 64 bit OS, but
clean installing from a 32 bit DVD is an option for you (you have
to find drivers for that, if the system can't find them). Some
new hardwares for example, only have Win10 drivers now. And
a bunch of NICs, only Win7 thru Win10 drivers (the practice
used to be, that NDIS versions back to MSDOS times used to be
provided, but not any more - NICs used to have the widest
possible range of Windows OS support, but they've stopped
that now).

Paul

On Sat, 8 Jun 2019 21:19:07 -0400, PT French
wrote:

For the next week Costco has a 4GB 128GB SSD Hewlett Packard
HP DF0023CL 14" laptop on sale for about $350 out the door (Windows S).

Is it an OK deal you think?

Costco item number 1272966

What is your experience with Windows S?


It's $320 now. As far as I'm concerned, the major thing wrong with it
is the 128MB SSD. That's tiny these days.


You can buy a 512MB SSD for around $50. I don't know how difficult it
might be to change the drive yourself, but if you can, that makes it
$370 and that sounds like a good buy.

Paul said:

The Windows Store can do operations not involving money

Thanks for that information, where I think they'll unpack it today so I'll
find out more.

S mode restricts program execution to HTML/JS (App Store programs)
and won't run Win32 (the programs you make for yourself with MinGW).

I can see how in certain situations that's good but not in the use model
that I plan on it being used so I will switch it out of S mode asap.

VK7JG-NPHTM-C97JM-9MPGT-3V66T (Windows 10 Professional) --- X79 desktop
YTMG3-N6DKC-DKB77-7M9GH-8HVX7 (Windows 10 Home - multi language) --- laptop!
BT79Q-G7N6G-PGBYW-4YWX6-6F4BT (Windows 10 Home - single language)

I'll let you know later today what key it uses when they unbox it.

That's the main incentive to install a 64 bit OS today.

Your laptop would come with a 64 bit OS, but
clean installing from a 32 bit DVD is an option for you (you have
to find drivers for that, if the system can't find them).

Thanks for that advice.

new hardwares for example, only have Win10 drivers now. And
a bunch of NICs, only Win7 thru Win10 drivers (the practice
used to be, that NDIS versions back to MSDOS times used to be
provided, but not any more - NICs used to have the widest
possible range of Windows OS support, but they've stopped
that now).

Oh oh. I didn't even think about the WiFi!
I just checked the spec sheet and it has ac which is ok.
https://www.costco.com/HP-14%22-Lapt...100461207.html

Unboxing is later today. Let me know if there is anything you want to know.

Andy Burns wrote:
PT French wrote:

what I would want is for
the SSD hard drive to be replaceable

Spec says it uses M.2 SSD, you'd want to find out what type of notch it
has, i.e. whether it's SATA or NVMe

I think it's the SATA notch and not the NVMe notch.

One commenter claimed (incorrectly) that it was
limited to "SATA I" :-) I think chances are good
it's limited to SATA mode but faster than that.

Once the unit is out of Windows 10 S mode, you could
run HDTune and use the read benchmark to see the read
rate. Which would hint at the type. An NVMe M.2 would
probably be 1 to 2GB/sec, whereas a SATA M.2 would
be 400-500MB/sec maybe. (Write rates on flash devices,
are slower than read. For example, the worst kind of
USB3 flash sticks you can buy, read at 100MB/sec and
write at 10MB/sec, and are quite asymmetric. I
would expect the M.2 to be somewhat asymmetric as
well. The M.2 capacity in this case is small enough,
it could be done with one (or two) flash chips,
limiting the channels to the controller chip.)

http://www.hdtune.com/files/hdtune_255.exe

The benchmark graph should be flat, under ideal conditions.

For new flash devices (TLC chips), note that the
read rate can be deceptively low when the device
is new. This is because the drive is doing
heavy duty error correction for each sector as
the read benchmark runs. Once the device has
been written from end to end and the cells "refreshed",
the "true" performance will be seen. But in this
case, it would be a nuisance to "prep" the SSD-like
drive in a Dell or HP, to clear up this observation.
The drive is still working... and it's the need
to rewrite the sectors that causes the benchmark
graph to look bad. Drives which are MLC or SLC based,
won't do this (they're minty fresh and well behaved
when new). It's the TLC (common) or QLC (newest)
which have the "mushy" sectors when you get them.

Sorta like how my brand-new, expensive CRT years ago,
had to be degaussed before I could use it :-/ Some new
items arrive in smelly condition, and as long as you
understand the root cause (no cause for concern),
you'll know when to expect it to go away. Once all the
sectors on the drive have been written by you at least
one time, you'll be seeing the "real" performance the
drive has to offer. It's unfortunate that TLC does
this, but what can you do ?

Paul

Paul wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Spec says it uses M.2 SSD, you'd want to find out what type of notch
it has, i.e. whether it's SATA or NVMe

I think it's the SATA notch and not the NVMe notch.

It would make sense to use up old stock of 128GB (not MB) SATA drives on
a cheap deal laptop, rather than fit NVMe drives.

PT French wrote:
Paul said:

The Windows Store can do operations not involving money

Thanks for that information, where I think they'll unpack it today so I'll
find out more.
S mode restricts program execution to HTML/JS (App Store programs)
and won't run Win32 (the programs you make for yourself with MinGW).

I can see how in certain situations that's good but not in the use model
that I plan on it being used so I will switch it out of S mode asap.

VK7JG-NPHTM-C97JM-9MPGT-3V66T (Windows 10 Professional) --- X79 desktop
YTMG3-N6DKC-DKB77-7M9GH-8HVX7 (Windows 10 Home - multi language)
--- laptop!
BT79Q-G7N6G-PGBYW-4YWX6-6F4BT (Windows 10 Home - single language)

I'll let you know later today what key it uses when they unbox it.

Unboxing is later today. Let me know if there is anything you want to know.

Don't post the license key, if it's not one of the above!

It should be a unique key, plucked from the MSDM table.
You don't want someone reading this newsgroup, to use
your key for installation, and then *you* get a Not Genuine
message or something.

*******

The lithium battery in the pouch pack in the unit,
will not last forever. The charge level should be
maintained at about 70% to 80% charge. This causes
the least damage to the cells, yet still gives you
runtime. If "storing" the unit and keeping it nice and
shiny, check every three months that it's not draining
too low. If the pack goes below "Vmin", the charger will
refuse to charge it (for safety reasons) and then you're
stuck using the adapter forever (as the battery will not
hold charge).

So while it's fun to pretend this is for a grown individual
to go to school with, the "weakest link" is the battery
and the battery life. You must do battery maintenance
while it's in storage. You must not overcharge it.
You must not allow it to run flat (you cannot ignore
the unit). This is the "curse of lithium". Don't buy lithium
appliances (battery lawn mower), unless you like running
around the house checking the charge level on a zillion
different items.

The batteryuniversity.com site has info on batteries and
best practice.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/..._ion_batteries

For devices in long-term storage, you don't want to do more
than Stage 1 charging. This prevents the pack from being
"parked" at a high voltage for months on end. The cells don't
like that. Charging to 100%, is intended for cases where you
want to use it right away (like go to class for the day
with 100% charge). If the unit is in storage, use 70% to 80%
charging, and check to see how fast it drains, is the best policy.

My laptop, which I only use every couple months, is sitting at
70% right now. The icon in the tray, tells me this.

Paul

On Sat, 8 Jun 2019 21:19:07 -0400, PT French wrote:

For the next week Costco has a 4GB 128GB SSD Hewlett Packard
HP DF0023CL 14" laptop on sale for about $350 out the door (Windows S).

Is it an OK deal you think?

Costco item number 1272966

What is your experience with Windows S?

From Wikipedia:

"Windows 10 S is a feature-limited edition of Windows 10 designed primarily for low-end devices
in the education market."

--
croy

Andy Burns wrote:
Paul wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Spec says it uses M.2 SSD, you'd want to find out what type of notch
it has, i.e. whether it's SATA or NVMe

I think it's the SATA notch and not the NVMe notch.

It would make sense to use up old stock of 128GB (not MB) SATA drives on
a cheap deal laptop, rather than fit NVMe drives.


Not just old stock. SATA drives are cheaper than NVMe.