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#61
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 03/09/2019 09:14 AM, nospam wrote:
In article , Mayayana wrote: snip ~100 line rant about Mamayaya couldn't care less We couldn't care less. (And anyway, people in the Linux groups are too uncivilzed to talk to. what a wonderful demonstration of your hypocrisy. first you insult all linux and apple users, then you try to claim that windows users don't care. you don't speak for all windows users, but if you didn't care, you wouldn't have written so many paragraphs trashing everything. why does it bother you so much what other people choose to use? Because like Mike says regarding Win10, "it's inevitable". Mike has drank the Kool-Aid. And Mamayaya has nowhere else to go, coming up rather soon. |
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#62
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 3/9/19 6:34 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"T" wrote | You could always use iptables. That is what I use on | mine and my customer's servers. No GUI though | That's a good one. You've managed to not fulfill both of my minimum Linux requirements with one program. But of course that's not hard. And naturally, once I got a version of Linux with a well designed firewall, where I didn't need console windows, I'd want software selection and long term support. The two requirements that still can't be fulfilled -- firewall and fixing the rough edges -- are just my requirements for minimum functionality before I'd spend my time actually trying out the rest of it. The lack of a usable Linux desktop just keeps going on, year after year. The fan base keep saying, "It's great! Try it again. You'll be impressed." But over 2 decades the fan base have never actually listened. If someone says they don't want to be forced to command line, the fan base says, "Oh? I like command line." If someone says, "But there's no software.", the fan base says, "What? There's Firefox and GIMP and Libre Office. How much do you need?" The people using Linux are not using a desktop to do work. Most are using Linux as servers, for special purpose scientific uses, as kiosk systems, or they're geeks who use Linux as a combination hobby, clubhouse and social circle. WINE is a good example in microcosm. It's been going for over 20 years... 20 years!... Yet it's mainly young geeks who want support for Windows games. And the whole thing is backward. They're not providing an API for Windows programmers. They're redirecting every single function or combination of functions in a Windows program to the Linux API. One program at a time and one call at a time. They specifically don't want to work with Windows programmers. So it's an endless, one-fix-at-a-time approach. And typical of Linux, there are virtually no docs. I once downloaded the pitiful excuse for docs that WINE did have. It was supposed to be compiled! I had to write a script to turn the docs into readable files. You couldn't make up this idiocy. Why are they so resistant to docs? Because most of the people writing the software and managing the system are geeks with minimal English literacy. They often say that themselves, explaining that they have no docs because they hate writing docs. But they also hate making things understandable. They want to be able to talk in secret code with their friends, with no one else understanding. In other words, they live in a world of adolescent geek jargon, used to render their social circle exclusive. Problems like that are deep and systemic. Someone making a sensible, usable firewall would help, but it's unlikely that anything can ever turn Linux into a user- friendly tool for any but the most extreme geeks. Which is a sad, lost opportunity. DotNet was adapted to Linux, despite having very little relevance there. If Linux people could just take the trouble to create crossover docs and tools for Windows programmers, so that most Windows software could be ported easily, that would go a long way toward making Linux usable. But the core problem is that Linux people actually don't want it to be usable. That would spoil the fun and the imagined cachet. On of the nicest things about Windows, to my mind, is the lack of an emotional, biased fan base. Apple fans are fiercely loyal suckers who turned Jobs into a guru. Jobs, in turn, told them what they wanted to hear: That the whole lemming school of overpaying Apple fans are people who "think different". It was brilliant marketing. "You want to do what I tell you to because you're an independent thinker." Once they've swalllowed that kind of pretzel logic they're hooked. Linux fans are equally fanatic in other ways. It's religious. Windows isn't religion. That's a critical difference that Linux and Apple fans often miss. Windows just gets the job done. It's not especially pretty or quirky. It just works. People don't use it because they think Gates or Nadella are genius gurus. They just use it because it works and it's a standard they can depend on. We don't go into Apple or Linux groups to tell people they should switch. We couldn't care less. (And anyway, people in the Linux groups are too uncivilzed to talk to. Uhhh. Uncivilized? My kill file is twice the size on Windows newsgroups than Linux. There are ass holes everywhere, no respecter of OS's. If you really want uncivilized, check out the C groups. Currently, I have a crew of folks heping me over on the Fedora mailing list with a parallel port problem. Not a single ass hole in sight. Ass holes do like to haunt newsgroups because they can display anonymous behavior and get away with it. Dig a hole under someone else and you feel taller. That is why we have kill files. Took me a bit to get my C kill file down, but now I only see the mensches, as I only see mensches on this group. And I had to add three ass holes into my Linux kill file today. As far as firewalls go, firewalld is fine for desktops. iptables is the way to go for servers. If you don't like the management tools, learn them or go use some other OS. And you can always try a firewall appliance. They are all Linux/iptables based anyway and have nicer interfaces. Watchguard makes excellent firewalls and has American tech support. I had a YUGE laugh when I asked if there was a GUI for named and got told "vi". Yes, I know vi (text editor from hell, but wonderful tool for coding.) And as far as the desktop being unusable, you haven't looked lately. I am writing on one right now. 10 times easier to use than Windows 10 and twice as easy as Windows 7. Remember that I support Linux, Windows, and Mac. I see a lot of desktops. (I have yet to meet a Mac user that know how to actually exit a program. They just leave everything running.) gnome is weird, but I can still use it directly. Windows 7 was based on KDE and is as easy to use as Windows 7 Here is the thing. To use a different technology requires you to actually learn the technology. You want to use Windows 10, you have to learn it. If you want to use Linux, you have to learn it. One of my big hold ups to Libre Office at my customers is those Office hold outs that refuse to use anything that is not 100% identical to Office. Learn? My ass. Go get yourself some Live USB's of KDE, gnome, Xfce, Mate and you will see what I mean. Beautiful desktops. Linux's only draw back now is the lack of application support. And WINE almost works most of the time. This is Code Weavers doing. You want it fixed and you have to put them on your parole. You are a hostage. Fortunately the Wine Staging guys are end running Code Weavers. The patches and fixes keep rolling in -- finally! Fedora uses Wine Staging. I run Lotus Smart Suite under Wine. A few glitches in the rendering, but entirely usable. Wine Staging fixed all the major problems for me. |
#63
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 3/9/2019 10:24 PM, T wrote:
Here is the thing.Â* To use a different technology requires you to actually learn the technology.Â* You want to use Windows 10, you have to learn it.Â* If you want to use Linux, you have to learn it. The majority of us don't want to LEARN any OS. We want the RESULT of running the application. We don't want to have to LEARN the application either. How many people already have basic knowledge of Windows? How many people already have basic knowledge of Linux? The ratio of those two numbers tells the story. There's little motivation for change. snip Linux's only draw back now is the lack of application support. ONLY??????? ;-( If I had to boil it down to one, it's complete lack of empathy (with prejudice) for Windows Refugees. What do you expect when it says "FOAD WinDroid" on the linux clubhouse door? |
#64
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 3/10/19 4:07 AM, Mike wrote:
On 3/9/2019 10:24 PM, T wrote: Here is the thing.Â* To use a different technology requires you to actually learn the technology.Â* You want to use Windows 10, you have to learn it.Â* If you want to use Linux, you have to learn it. The majority of us don't want to LEARN any OS. Hi Mike, I was speaking to another I.T. person, not to the general public. Those administering systems need to LEARN them, whatever they are. And you are right about the general public. They could not give a hoot is their OS was the Flaming Zucchini OpSys as long as it ran the programs they want We want the RESULT of running the application. Agreed. The computer should be a tool that works for the human, not the other way around. We don't want to have to LEARN the application either. That is the rub. Have you ever written software? I have/do. 95% of the code is dealing with the interface to the user. And they could be a lot better done. Developers are pressures to "just ship it". How many people already have basic knowledge of Windows? Twelve? How many people already have basic knowledge of Linux? Ten? Keep in mind that the scrubbers that guess at the installed base of OS'es miss Linux a lot because it does to spy on you and the telemetry is not there. The ratio of those two numbers tells the story. There's little motivation for change. The motivation would be when they could run the apps the want on it. That is Linux's only drawback at the moment. Linux now has some really nice desktops. snip Linux's only draw back now is the lack of application support. ONLY???????Â* ;-( Yep. You must be remembering years ago when their GUI's were nasty. Linux is faster, far more stable, technologically superior, and very easy to use. Maybe you should try downloading and trying some of the Live Spins. They have the desktops already set up so you can fly before your buy. There are some nice spins too. If I had to boil it down to one, it's complete lack of empathy (with prejudice) for Windows Refugees.Â* What do you expect when it says "FOAD WinDroid" on the linux clubhouse door? Sorry. Not following. -T |
#65
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 3/10/19 1:24 AM, T wrote:
GoÂ*getÂ*yourselfÂ*someÂ*LiveÂ*USB'sÂ*ofÂ*KDE,Â*gn ome,Â*Xfce,Â*MateÂ*and youÂ*willÂ*seeÂ*whatÂ*IÂ*mean.Â*Â*BeautifulÂ*deskt ops. And Cinnamon. |
#66
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
"T" wrote
The majority of us don't want to LEARN any OS. | I was speaking to another I.T. person, not to the general public. Those administering systems need to LEARN them, whatever they are. | ?? Me? You were speaking to someone who uses a computer and would consider switching to Linux if it were a viable option. And I keep pointing out that it isn't, just in case there might be someone out there who's listening. Why isn't it viable? You just demonstrated. I can't do something as simple as block outgoing software without learning Linux networking. And that's my fault. We don't want to have to LEARN the application either. | That is the rub. Have you ever written software? I have/do. 95% of the code is dealing with the interface to the user. And they could be a lot better done. Developers are pressures to "just ship it". | I don't know what tools you're using. In my experience, most software now is made with "RAD" tools, and has been for many years. 95% of the work is writing code and testing. Making the GUI is a drag-drop operation. Need a window? Click. You've got a window. Need a button? Click. You've got a button. Work and imagined time pressure is never an excuse for not doing the job right. I'm using a typical Linux product currently. The "Poppler" package of PDF tools. Fortunately they also make a Windows version. The tools work pretty well, but have a few glitches. Command line only. No docs. Only man pages. Even with those the authors couldn't be bothered to check them and make sure they're readable. They're not. I was lucky to find a brief list of command line options online. So I've written an HTA wrapper to make the tools usable and fix the glitches. So next time I want to convert a PDF I can do it with software that's competent and easy to use. Time pressure? The last version of Poppler is 6 months old. No one could find time to write a few paragraphs of help in 6 months? Should I be grateful and not look a gift horse in the mouth? Why? I write code and give it away, without licensing it as an "open source infection" that can only be used in OSS. I don't release it until I've written docs. Simply because that's part of doing the job right. Last I saw, WINE was being released every 10 days. That's absurd. It probably leaves them 2-3 days to actually code between releases. Pressure to get it out the door? How is that possible when the project is *20+ years old*? It's not pressure to get it out. The whole thing is just a hobby that they don't want to end. Now you say the only reason WINE is still half-assed after 20+ years is because of politics. I don't believe that. I tried to work with the WINE people. They were completely unwilling to cooperate with Windows developers and come up with an API or tools we could use to target Linux. They said they wanted to support my software but all they really wanted was Windows bug reporters to give their interns some practice. And they couldn't be bothered with docs. The WINE people could have started a Windows API and docs 20 years ago, so that Windows programmers could design for WINE. Then gobs of Windows software could have been running beautifully under WINE years ago. And we could test/fix our own bugs. But they refuse to take such a sensible approach. Instead they want to be like teenage hackers, finding hacks to make Windows software work, one function at a time. Probably much of that is due to OSS religion. It's probably very difficult to get a majority to agree on things. If they actually tried to help Windows software run on Linux then they'd be supporting closed source software. People would freak. Stallman would go to the media. By working on hacks they don't have to sacrifice their "principles", thus averting a civil war in Linuxland and maintaining the adolescent, clubhouse atmosphere that makes Linux so much "fun". |
#67
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
In article , Mayayana
wrote: | That is the rub. Have you ever written software? I have/do. 95% of the code is dealing with the interface to the user. And they could be a lot better done. Developers are pressures to "just ship it". | I don't know what tools you're using. In my experience, most software now is made with "RAD" tools, and has been for many years. 95% of the work is writing code and testing. Making the GUI is a drag-drop operation. Need a window? Click. You've got a window. Need a button? Click. You've got a button. Work and imagined time pressure is never an excuse for not doing the job right. there's a *lot* more to making a good gui than dropping a couple of buttons in a window. creating a good gui is a *significant* amount of work, although nowhere near 95%. |
#68
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
In article , wrote:
Remember that I support Linux, Windows, and Mac. I see a lot of desktops. (I have yet to meet a Mac user that know how to actually exit a program. They just leave everything running.) you obviously haven't met very many mac users. they know how, but often choose not to because there is no downside to leaving something running. One of my big hold ups to Libre Office at my customers is those Office hold outs that refuse to use anything that is not 100% identical to Office. Learn? My ass. the problem is that libre office is not fully compatible with existing office documents, which makes it difficult or impossible to collaborate with others who use the real office. |
#69
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 2019-03-09 19:43, Paul wrote:
Panthera Tigris Altaica wrote: Err... I'd say that there's a problem with the mouse, probably that particular mouse, not Ubuntu. Uhhuh. Let me give you an example. If you have a mouse with a high DPI behavior, Ubuntu refuses to scale the DPI down and give the mouse normal behavior. I have never had that problem with any mouse or other pointing device in Ubuntu. Either it works properly the first time or it doesn't work. We're told to "unplug the mouse and plug it in again". Upon rediscover, for some reason, the scaling then works properly. And this "workaround" has been the answer "forever" :-/ Except around here, where it is not needed. Wunderbar. Ausgezeichnet. I have two mice on the Test Machine. A Logitech mouse (with conventional DPI) and a newer MS Mouse (with high DPI). I got the MS Mouse, because that's all they had at Staples. And I'm expected to unplug and plug that MS mouse in over and over and over and over and... You get the idea. The connector would have fallen off by now, if I had followed that advice scrupulously. Because "we're not fixing it". For some value of "we're not fixing it". Â*Â* Paul |
#70
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 2019-03-10 1:24 a.m., T wrote:
On 3/9/19 6:34 AM, Mayayana wrote: "T" wrote | You could always use iptables.Â* That is what I use on | mine and my customer's servers.Â* No GUI though | Â*Â*Â* That's a good one. You've managed to not fulfill both of my minimum Linux requirements with one program. But of course that's not hard. And naturally, once I got a version of Linux with a well designed firewall, where I didn't need console windows, I'd want software selection and long term support. The two requirements that still can't be fulfilled -- firewall and fixing the rough edges -- are just my requirements for minimum functionality before I'd spend my time actually trying out the rest of it. Â*Â* The lack of a usable Linux desktop just keeps going on, year after year. The fan base keep saying, "It's great! Try it again. You'll be impressed." But over 2 decades the fan base have never actually listened. If someone says they don't want to be forced to command line, the fan base says, "Oh? I like command line." If someone says, "But there's no software.", the fan base says, "What? There's Firefox and GIMP and Libre Office. How much do you need?" Â*Â* The people using Linux are not using a desktop to do work. Most are using Linux as servers, for special purpose scientific uses, as kiosk systems, or they're geeks who use Linux as a combination hobby, clubhouse and social circle. Â*Â*Â* WINE is a good example in microcosm. It's been going for over 20 years... 20 years!... Yet it's mainly young geeks who want support for Windows games. And the whole thing is backward. They're not providing an API for Windows programmers. They're redirecting every single function or combination of functions in a Windows program to the Linux API. One program at a time and one call at a time. They specifically don't want to work with Windows programmers. So it's an endless, one-fix-at-a-time approach. And typical of Linux, there are virtually no docs. I once downloaded the pitiful excuse for docs that WINE did have. It was supposed to be compiled! I had to write a script to turn the docs into readable files. You couldn't make up this idiocy. Â*Â*Â*Â* Why are they so resistant to docs? Because most of the people writing the software and managing the system are geeks with minimal English literacy. They often say that themselves, explaining that they have no docs because they hate writing docs. But they also hate making things understandable. They want to be able to talk in secret code with their friends, with no one else understanding. In other words, they live in a world of adolescent geek jargon, used to render their social circle exclusive. Â*Â*Â* Problems like that are deep and systemic. Someone making a sensible, usable firewall would help, but it's unlikely that anything can ever turn Linux into a user- friendly tool for any but the most extreme geeks. Which is a sad, lost opportunity. DotNet was adapted to Linux, despite having very little relevance there. If Linux people could just take the trouble to create crossover docs and tools for Windows programmers, so that most Windows software could be ported easily, that would go a long way toward making Linux usable. But the core problem is that Linux people actually don't want it to be usable. That would spoil the fun and the imagined cachet. Â*Â*Â* On of the nicest things about Windows, to my mind, is the lack of an emotional, biased fan base. Apple fans are fiercely loyal suckers who turned Jobs into a guru. Jobs, in turn, told them what they wanted to hear: That the whole lemming school of overpaying Apple fans are people who "think different". It was brilliant marketing. "You want to do what I tell you to because you're an independent thinker." Once they've swalllowed that kind of pretzel logic they're hooked. Â*Â*Â* Linux fans are equally fanatic in other ways. It's religious. Windows isn't religion. That's a critical difference that Linux and Apple fans often miss. Windows just gets the job done. It's not especially pretty or quirky. It just works. People don't use it because they think Gates or Nadella are genius gurus. They just use it because it works and it's a standard they can depend on. We don't go into Apple or Linux groups to tell people they should switch. We couldn't care less. (And anyway, people in the Linux groups are too uncivilzed to talk to. Uhhh.Â* Uncivilized?Â* My kill file is twice the size on Windows newsgroups than Linux.Â* There are ass holes everywhere, no respecter of OS's.Â* If you really want uncivilized, check out the C groups. Currently, I have a crew of folks heping me over on the Fedora mailing list with a parallel port problem.Â* Not a single ass hole in sight.Â* Ass holes do like to haunt newsgroups because they can display anonymous behavior and get away with it.Â* Dig a hole under someone else and you feel taller.Â* That is why we have kill files. Took me a bit to get my C kill file down, but now I only see the mensches, as I only see mensches on this group. And I had to add three ass holes into my Linux kill file today. As far as firewalls go, firewalld is fine for desktops.Â* iptables is the way to go for servers.Â* If you don't like the management tools, learn them or go use some other OS. And you can always try a firewall appliance.Â* They are all Linux/iptables based anyway and have nicer interfaces.Â* Watchguard makes excellent firewalls and has American tech support. I had a YUGE laugh when I asked if there was a GUI for named and got told "vi".Â* Yes, I know vi (text editor from hell, but wonderful tool for coding.) And as far as the desktop being unusable, you haven't looked lately.Â* I am writing on one right now.Â* 10 times easier to use than Windows 10 and twice as easy as Windows 7. Remember that I support Linux, Windows, and Mac.Â* I see a lot of desktops.Â* (I have yet to meet a Mac user that know how to actually exit a program.Â* They just leave everything running.)Â* gnome is weird, but I can still use it directly.Â* Windows 7 was based on KDE and is as easy to use as Windows 7 Here is the thing.Â* To use a different technology requires you to actually learn the technology.Â* You want to use Windows 10, you have to learn it.Â* If you want to use Linux, you have to learn it. One of my big hold ups to Libre Office at my customers is those Office hold outs that refuse to use anything that is not 100% identical to Office.Â* Learn?Â* My ass. Go get yourself some Live USB's of KDE, gnome, Xfce, Mate and you will see what I mean.Â* Beautiful desktops. Disagreed. KDE is generally butt ugly. There is such a thing as too much eye candy and KDE is there. MATE and XFCE don't look special but I admit that I like the way Gnome looks and acts. I guess that's the strength of Linux though: there's a desktop for everyone. Linux's only draw back now is the lack of application support. A lot of the older games will play in Linux through SteamPlay (as long as it was purchased in Steam) but I notice that applications which should run easily through Wine just won't. There's no excuse, for instance, for WordPerfect Office X9 not to work through Wine. And WINE almost works most of the time.Â* This is Code Weavers doing.Â* You want it fixed and you have to put them on your parole. You are a hostage. Fortunately the Wine Staging guys are end running Code Weavers.Â* The patches and fixes keep rolling in -- finally! Fedora uses Wine Staging.Â* I run Lotus Smart Suite under Wine. A few glitches in the rendering, but entirely usable.Â* Wine Staging fixed all the major problems for me. Old software always seems to work well in Wine. -- - "I am a Linux advocate. I am one with Linux, and Linux will guide me." - "The Linux?" - "The Linux is what gives an advocate his beard and weight issues." - "It's an energy field created by all living things." - "It surrounds us and penetrates us without consent." - "Remember, an advocate can feel the Linux flowing through him." |
#71
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 2019-03-10 7:59 a.m., Big Al wrote:
On 3/10/19 1:24 AM, T wrote: GoÂ*getÂ*yourselfÂ*someÂ*LiveÂ*USB'sÂ*ofÂ*KDE,Â*gn ome,Â*Xfce,Â*MateÂ*and youÂ*willÂ*seeÂ*whatÂ*IÂ*mean.Â*Â*BeautifulÂ*deskt ops. And Cinnamon. Cinnamon is a perfect compromise between functionality and familiarity. -- - "I am a Linux advocate. I am one with the Linux, and the Linux will guide me." - "The Linux?" - "The Linux is what gives an advocate his beard and weight issues." - "It's an energy field created by all living things." - "It surrounds us and penetrates us without consent." - "Remember, an advocate can feel the Linux flowing through him." |
#72
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 3/10/2019 4:46 AM, T wrote:
On 3/10/19 4:07 AM, Mike wrote: On 3/9/2019 10:24 PM, T wrote: Here is the thing.Â* To use a different technology requires you to actually learn the technology.Â* You want to use Windows 10, you have to learn it.Â* If you want to use Linux, you have to learn it. The majority of us don't want to LEARN any OS. Hi Mike, I was speaking to another I.T. person, not to the general public. Those administering systems need to LEARN them, whatever they are. And you are right about the general public.Â* They could not give a hoot is their OS was the Flaming Zucchini OpSys as long as it ran the programs they want We want the RESULT of running the application. Agreed.Â* The computer should be a tool that works for the human, not the other way around. We don't want to have to LEARN the application either. That is the rub.Â* Have you ever written software?Â* I have/do.Â*Â* 95% of the code is dealing with the interface to the user.Â* And they could be a lot better done. Developers are pressures to "just ship it". Software is a communication problem. When you have a verbal discussion, you might choose words that are familiar to you and maybe everybody else in your clubhouse. Problem is that the listener has his own history/experience/bias. He "hears" what he knows. Your words are merely triggers to the contents of HIS brain, not yours. I've found a strong inverse relationship between how smart a person thinks he is to his ability to communicate/educate others. A teacher/mentor constantly monitors both sides of the conversation and adjusts HIS words to lead the student to the intended conclusion. You can't just shout down his brain. You have to understand where it is and LEAD it to where you want it to go. Empathy is very difficult to teach...especially to people who know it all. Here's a simple example: If you asked me if you could borrow my cellphone, I'd say that I don't have one. Truth is that I probably have one in my pocket. What I don't have is cell SERVICE. A simple interpretation is that I LIED. A thorough analysis would show that I COMMUNICATED. I used words that communicated that fact that I couldn't help you with anything that a typical phone user would require. If I'd said that I didn't have service, we'd be off on a tangent that would not do either of us any good and you still couldn't make a call. If your reaction indicated otherwise, I'd hand you the phone. So, what did that have to do with software? If the student is a windows user, it's YOUR responsibility to lead his mind from where it's been to where you want it to go. You can't speak geek. You can't berate him for being stupid. You gotta speak windows. Desktop linux has FAILED at that task. Without strong leadership, it will always FAIL at that task. If you're looking for a hobby, desktop linux is as good as any. And you might just dump windows altogether. I'm betting most won't. How many people already have basic knowledge of Windows? Twelve? How many people already have basic knowledge of Linux? Ten? I think your ratio is way off. Take two average joes to best buy. Tell one to buy a computer. Tell the other to buy a linux based desktop computing platform. The first guy will be in the checkout line before the second one finds anybody who can help him in the least. Experiment two: Give two people computers new in the box and internet connections. Lock 'em in separate rooms. Tell 'em to write a short memo, attach a picture and email it to you and you'll come open the door. Tell person two that he will have to use linux to do it. Leave and wait for the emails. Don't forget to notify next of kin and call hazmat for the second guy. Keep in mind that the scrubbers that guess at the installed base of OS'es miss Linux a lot because it does to spy on you and the telemetry is not there. I can't dispute that. Try this metric. Stand up at the PTA meeting and say, "raise your hand if you can help me with some issues in open office in ubuntu." Or, "I have a half-price computer that only works with mint. Who wants it? There's your ratio. The ratio of those two numbers tells the story. There's little motivation for change. The motivation would be when they could run the apps the want on it.Â* That is Linux's only drawback at the moment.Â* Linux now has some really nice desktops. That's not motivation. You're sitting at the rest stop. You are half way to your kid's wedding. You're on schedule and life is great. Somebody drives up and offers to trade vehicles. His has the steering wheel on the wrong side. There's a bunch of stuff in the trunk. Nobody knows what it is. It won't go on the interstate, but HE is convinced that HE could find a back road to get you there. But he thinks it's really shiny in places. How motivated will you be? snip Linux's only draw back now is the lack of application support. ONLY???????Â* ;-( Yep.Â* You must be remembering years ago when their GUI's were nasty.Â* Linux is faster, far more stable, technologically superior, Technical superiority is overrated. I spent several hours yesterday in my friends beat up Ford on the way to a swapmeet. We would have taken his BMW, but it wasn't running...again! Gets a lot better gas mileage and way more fun to drive. Technically superior. But he can't fix it. His local BMW whisperer can't fix it. If he takes it to the dealer, it'll cost a fortune to fix and be broke again next month. and very easy to use. That's BS. If you plug in the live DVD and click icons on the screen, it's very easy to use. If you ever need to look behind the curtain, you're screwed. A windows user doing stuff in desktop linux isn't too bad the SECOND time you do it, but that first time is a bitch. Doesn't take very many of those to send you back to the windows that you know and hate. Maybe you should try downloading and trying some of the Live Spins. I like mint. A few versions back, I liked Zorin. But every version takes it further back into the chaos that is desktop linux. They have the desktops already set up so you can fly before your buy. That's a myth. I've tried distros that worked great off the DVD, but when installed, it boots to a blank screen. Or what about when the DVD works the lan but when installed, you need to connect to the internet to install the proper lan driver to connect to the internet. I'm sure a guru could figger out how to fix it, but it's not worth the effort. Desktop linux is like an onion. Fix one thing and there's another just below the surface. And it changes every distro/release/wet dream that the developers are experiencing. Distro A does five of the seven things on your must have list. Distro B does five of the seven things on your list of must haves, just different five. You can add the fixes to either, but it takes a different process for each. And the default tools are different. You have to install the stuff that lets you install stuff so you can learn new tools to get most of what you want. To be fair, windows is going down the same road to chaos. Maybe it will eventually be so bad that desktop linux looks good...but don't count on it. There are some nice spins too. If I had to boil it down to one, it's complete lack of empathy (with prejudice) for Windows Refugees.Â* What do you expect when it says "FOAD WinDroid" on the linux clubhouse door? Sorry. Not following. Carrots work better than sticks if you expect windows people to convert to desktop linux. -T |
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 3/10/2019 8:30 AM, nospam wrote:
In article , Mayayana wrote: | That is the rub. Have you ever written software? I have/do. 95% of the code is dealing with the interface to the user. And they could be a lot better done. Developers are pressures to "just ship it". The best run test instrument project I ever saw started by writing the manual. They started with WHAT users wanted to do. They decided HOW users would do that. They wrote the manual telling them how to use the instrument. The manual was complete, except for the bad grammar of the engineers. This was done in parallel with hardware and software feasibility studies and discussions with users. When they were done, they designed/built what they had documented. The project went smoothly and was a success with users. No nasty surprises in the project. No protracted delays/rethink/redesigns. That manual took months. Management was livid, but it worked out very well. Even so, I don't think anybody else tried that again. Livid management is a strong motivator. | I don't know what tools you're using. In my experience, most software now is made with "RAD" tools, and has been for many years. 95% of the work is writing code and testing. Making the GUI is a drag-drop operation. Need a window? Click. You've got a window. Need a button? Click. You've got a button. Work and imagined time pressure is never an excuse for not doing the job right. there's a *lot* more to making a good gui than dropping a couple of buttons in a window. creating a good gui is a *significant* amount of work, although nowhere near 95%. Yep, but I'd still like to hear about a free linux GUI development tool. With visual basic 6, you grab an icon, place it on the window. You have a box full of configurations you can do to that icon. It had EVERYTHING you could ever do to THAT icon...nothing more nothing less. When I tried that with C, I had to know everything and type it in CORRECTLY. Editing it was a bitch. Gambas looked promising, but never quite made it. Yes, I know VB6 ain't free, but the incremental cost of using it is zero if you already have it. And that's the crux of the difficulty migrating windows users to desktop linux. |
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
"Mike" wrote
| The best run test instrument project I ever saw | started by writing the manual. They started | with WHAT users wanted to do. | I think the smoothest piece of software I've written is something I made for a friend, repeatedly going back to watch her use it and see what she expected it to do. That kind of feedback is a luxury. But it's also important, for me at least, to actually be interested in the functionality. The best software is the software that the author needs themselves. I think that with a lot of the geek products the inspiration is not so much to make good software but rather to perfect the algorythms. What should be 2nd-stage polish is, instead, the only part they're interested in working on. | Yep, but I'd still like to hear about a free linux GUI development tool. | With visual basic 6, you grab an icon, place it on the window. | You have a box full of configurations you can do to that icon. | It had EVERYTHING you could ever do to THAT icon...nothing more | nothing less. | When I tried that with C, I had to know everything and type it in | CORRECTLY. Editing it was a bitch. | Gambas looked promising, but never quite made it. | | Yes, I know VB6 ain't free, but the incremental cost of using it is zero | if you already have it. And that's the crux of the difficulty migrating | windows users to desktop linux. | Indeed. I'm still using VB6 and love it. That would be painful to give up. And it's still as relevant as ever, with support built into Win10. I tried Gambas once. As near as I could tell it was little more than a monument of resentment. The author just wanted to tell VBers how bad VB is and to condescend to us. I don't remember much about the docs, but I do remember the author repeatedly writing that his aim was to show us how to code right. And the logo (a cartoon lobster?) was right out of Fischer-Price. |
#75
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 3/10/2019 2:32 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Mike" wrote | The best run test instrument project I ever saw | started by writing the manual. They started | with WHAT users wanted to do. | I think the smoothest piece of software I've written is something I made for a friend, repeatedly going back to watch her use it and see what she expected it to do. That's excellent. But you can't do that in many instances. A general product can take some time to grind through the bureaucratic process of a major corporation. If you disclose early to customers, your competition can beat you to the punch. You have to predict trends, empathize with your customer, define features/benefits and ask questions that verify your assumptions without giving away the store. Ability to do that is rare. That process applies to open source. The designer has to get something for his efforts. Even if it's just street cred, there's motivation to be recognized. That kind of feedback is a luxury. But it's also important, for me at least, to actually be interested in the functionality. The best software is the software that the author needs themselves. I think that with a lot of the geek products the inspiration is not so much to make good software but rather to perfect the algorythms. What should be 2nd-stage polish is, instead, the only part they're interested in working on. That's a two-edged sword. Current apps do 99% of what you need and are 102% what you never use. So you write your own program to do what you need. It's a world class program doing that. You're done. Unless it's linux. Then you establish a competing branch to the tree. If we're lucky you don't fork a distro that features your contribution. Problem is that nobody wants it because you didn't include the features that post to instagram and email you when your dog needs to go out and book your next vacation. So, some other geek adds all that and forks your program again. But he has a different UI bias. And no interest in thoroughly evaluating compatibility. So some other geek adds.... After 20 years of that, you have...well...you have desktop linux. |
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