O.T. Dell 8200 cannot power up

I have a Dell XPS 8500, with Windows 7 Professional, SP1,
with Spywareblaster, Malwarebytes, Avast Professional,
Windows Defender and Windows firewall.

(1) TB HD
Intel (R) Core (TM) i7-33-3770 CPU @ 3.40 GHz 3.40 GHz
Ram 12.0 GB
System type : 64-bit operating system

I also have a Dell Dimension 8200 with XP, SP3, with
Spywareblaster, Avast, Malwarebytes and Windows firewall.


Seagate Barracuda 7200 160 Gb HD
Intel (R) Pentium (R) 4 CPU 1.80 GHz
Ram 1.79 GHz, 1.00 GB of RAM
System type : 32-bit operating system

and (external hard drives)

Seagate Backup Plus 1(TB) 2.5 USB Portable HD

WD BLACK SERIES WD2003FZEX 2TB 7200
RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal
Hard Drive

The problem is this; today when I logged on the 8500
I noticed that the 8200 power switch was amber and the
drive light was green (I always power off my computers).
So I pressed the power button until it powered off. I then
tried to power it up after restarting the computer and then
tried a complete shutdown but the light stays amber when
I try to power it up.

I had the 8200 up and running just yesterday and it was fine.
So I don't know why the amber light was on or stays on
or why it's not powering up?

Thoughts/suggestions?
Robert

On 12/14/2015 12:27 AM, Mark Twain wrote:
I have a Dell XPS 8500, with Windows 7 Professional, SP1,
with Spywareblaster, Malwarebytes, Avast Professional,
Windows Defender and Windows firewall.

(1) TB HD
Intel (R) Core (TM) i7-33-3770 CPU @ 3.40 GHz 3.40 GHz
Ram 12.0 GB
System type : 64-bit operating system

I also have a Dell Dimension 8200 with XP, SP3, with
Spywareblaster, Avast, Malwarebytes and Windows firewall.


Seagate Barracuda 7200 160 Gb HD
Intel (R) Pentium (R) 4 CPU 1.80 GHz
Ram 1.79 GHz, 1.00 GB of RAM
System type : 32-bit operating system

and (external hard drives)

Seagate Backup Plus 1(TB) 2.5 USB Portable HD

WD BLACK SERIES WD2003FZEX 2TB 7200
RPM 64MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal
Hard Drive

The problem is this; today when I logged on the 8500
I noticed that the 8200 power switch was amber and the
drive light was green (I always power off my computers).
So I pressed the power button until it powered off. I then
tried to power it up after restarting the computer and then
tried a complete shutdown but the light stays amber when
I try to power it up.

I had the 8200 up and running just yesterday and it was fine.
So I don't know why the amber light was on or stays on
or why it's not powering up?

IIRC, the color light means something. Aren't there color lights in the
rear too? If so, then go to its manual and see what they mean.
--
"... human societies send their young men to war, weaver-ant societies
send their old ladies." --Wilson and Holldobler
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see
this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
/ /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o o| |
\ _ / If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
( ) Chop ANT from its address if e-mailing privately.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

Mark Twain wrote:


I had the 8200 up and running just yesterday and it was fine.
So I don't know why the amber light was on or stays on
or why it's not powering up?

Thoughts/suggestions?
Robert

Unplug the 8200. This will reset the
overload detection on the power supply.
If upon plugging it in again, if it
starts it does not mean it is healthy.
It means eventually it's going to fail again.

The 8200 apparently has no power switch
on the PSU. Which means you may have trouble
fitting a generic replacement.

Reasons for behavior:

1) Power supplies have OVP and OCP (overvoltage and overcurrent
protection). Many supplies are "silent" and provide no indication
at all, what is happened. When can only assume when a power supply
doesn't power up, it is OCP. Apparently the Dell provides the
amber LED scheme, to provide feedback.

2) OCP is enabled at 35 milliseconds. Even if the supply
is overloaded, the supply produces power anyway, for those
35 milliseconds. After unplugging the 8200, waiting 30 seconds,
and plugging in again, when you use the power button on the
front, check for a cooling fan "twitch". The fan twitches, because
it gets power for 35 milliseconds, then the OCP cuts all power.
This is a way of proving the power supply is capable of
making some power. It if didn't twitch, the internal fuse
could be blown. If it twitches, it wants to make power,
but OCP shuts it off.

OK, so how can we get an overload ? Why does it happen ?

1) Short in motherboard. This doesn't happen often, but sometimes
the copper planes short together. The worst I've seen, is the area
around the CPU socket, all burned up. This is not likely to be
the problem. Similarly, a video card (the type using an AUX power
connector) can overload the supply, if there is a short. Again,
this doesn't happen all that often.

2) Leaking capacitors. A couple billion defective capacitors
were made over a number of years. Some Dell models were hard hit,
with almost 100% failure rates. Others were not as bad. If a
capacitor leaks, it may decide to short out the rail it is
connected to. You hear a "sizzling sound" at startup, may see
a small puff of smoke, then the OCP can cut in and remove power.
The power supply protection is reset, when you unplug it,
wait 30 seconds, and plug it in again.

The 8200 should have been from before this period in time.
It should not be a high failure rate design.

Leaking capacitors can happen on the motherboard (around the CPU
socket). They can also happen in the power supply. I have two supplies
here that died. One of them had four caps in the low voltage output
section that had brown rust stains on top. And those caps made the
sizzling sound as well.

So either the PSU or the motherboard needs to be replaced.
The betting money is on the power supply. Removing the cover
of the power supply (without touching anything in there),
may occasionally give visual evidence of the failure.
Like the four caps I found.

Replacing an 8200 power supply won't necessarily be easy.
PCPowerAndCooling no longer make Dell supplies (they made
good quality replacements). You may find replacements listed on Ebay.
I assume the wiring harness is standard ATX, but you have to be careful
with Dell, because there was a two year model range with non-standard
supplies. Usually, checking the wire harness colors, is a "hint"
of standard-ness.

This page has the wire harness colors of a standard ATX PSU.
This table would be for a legacy 20 pin design. And when it
says "-5V optional", the -5V output was removed from the
spec at one point. You may find pin 18 on the supply has
no pin inserted in it. Mine are like that here. My computer
around the year 1999, didn't need -5V any more. It could
read out the voltage on the pin, using the motherboard
voltage monitor, but it didn't actually consume any power
from pin 18.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psucon...onnectors.html

Pinout
Pins 1 through 10 Pins 11 through 20

Description Wire color Pin Pin Wire color Description
+3.3 volts orange 1 11 orange +3.3 volts
+3.3 volts orange 2 12 blue -12 volts
ground black 3 13 black ground
+5 volts red 4 14 green PS_ON#
ground black 5 15 black ground
+5 volts red 6 16 black ground
ground black 7 17 black ground
PWR_OK gray 8 18 white -5 volts (optional)
VSB +5volts purple 9 19 red +5 volts
+12 volts yellow 10 20 red +5 volts

So if the power supply is "standard", those would be the colors.

The hardest part of replacing the supply, may be dealing
with the computer case, a case that might not have room
for the power switch to poke through. As the default
power supply has no switch (similar to some Apple computers).

Paul

Well this is weird, I had thought I had powered
off the 8200 although I still had the 8500 on and
went to do something else in another room. When
I came back the 8200 was up and running!

I've rebooted it and it came back up like there
was never any problem. So I think it is the power
problem like you say. After all its 15 years old.

You had me check the capacitors before and you said
they all looked good but of course that doesn't mean
something couldn't have blown since.

I thought we looked at these?

http://www.amazon.com/PS-5251-2DS-DE.../dp/B0056I5SK8

http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Dell-D.../dp/B00N3742NS

of course there's eBay

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ds=&rmvSB=true

but you advised against it.

Hopefully this shows the type of connectors:

http://i63.tinypic.com/2yxjjtx.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/353av6p.jpg

Robert

I checked the indicators in the back
when the Amber power light is on and
none are lit and the fan wasn't moving.


Robert

On 12/14/2015 9:01 AM, Mark Twain wrote:
Well this is weird, I had thought I had powered
off the 8200 although I still had the 8500 on and
went to do something else in another room. When
I came back the 8200 was up and running!

I've rebooted it and it came back up like there
was never any problem. So I think it is the power
problem like you say. After all its 15 years old.

You had me check the capacitors before and you said
they all looked good but of course that doesn't mean
something couldn't have blown since.

I thought we looked at these?

http://www.amazon.com/PS-5251-2DS-DE.../dp/B0056I5SK8

http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Dell-D.../dp/B00N3742NS

of course there's eBay

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ds=&rmvSB=true

but you advised against it.

Hopefully this shows the type of connectors:

http://i63.tinypic.com/2yxjjtx.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/353av6p.jpg

Robert

Measure the voltage of the Standby 5V supply when it's cold.
I've had several computers with weird boot/no boot symptoms
because the cap in the Standby 5V went open.

I don't remember whether the bad voltage showed up on a typical
average-reading voltmeter or whether I had to put a scope on it.

Mark Twain wrote:
Well this is weird, I had thought I had powered
off the 8200 although I still had the 8500 on and
went to do something else in another room. When
I came back the 8200 was up and running!

I've rebooted it and it came back up like there
was never any problem. So I think it is the power
problem like you say. After all its 15 years old.

You had me check the capacitors before and you said
they all looked good but of course that doesn't mean
something couldn't have blown since.

I thought we looked at these?

http://www.amazon.com/PS-5251-2DS-DE.../dp/B0056I5SK8

http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Dell-D.../dp/B00N3742NS

of course there's eBay

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ds=&rmvSB=true

but you advised against it.

Hopefully this shows the type of connectors:

http://i63.tinypic.com/2yxjjtx.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/353av6p.jpg

Robert

One of the items in your list was listed as used/refurbished
and the one reviewer said his item wasn't clean. So they don't
even blow the dust out of it.

*******

Using the Dell site (which doesn't have stock), I got a
sniff at a replacement. Now, I don't know if it is a
real replacement, in the sense that this particular one
doesn't have the 1x6 AUX connector. The AUX carries
extra 3.3V, 5V, GND wires. This also isn't generous
with the wire harness.

http://www.startech.com/Computer-Par...y~ATXPW400DELL

ATXPW400DELL

The 400 Watt ATX12V 2.01 Dell PC Power Supply is compatible
with standard ATX style versions of following:

Dimension Series Models: 1100 / 2200 / 2300 / 2350 / 2400 /
4300 / 4400 / 4500 / 4550 / 4600 / 8200 / ---
8250 / 8300 / 8400 / B100
Optiplex Series Models: 170L / GX60 / GX150 / GX240 / GX260 / GX270
Power Edge Series Models: 400SC / 600SC
Precision Workstation Series Model: Model 340 / 350
Smart Step Series Models: 100D / 150D

It's listed here as $38

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817707049

I started at the Dell site, and found a reference
to it there. The table shows the PW400 model doesn't
have 6 pin AUX. And it's possible your motherboard
uses that (for extra 3.3V and 5V).

This is the manual that comes in the Startech power supply box.
The second link, is the document from the Startech site.

http://snpi.dell.com/sna/manuals/A2125383.pdf

http://sgcdn.startech.com/005329/med...XPWxxxDELL.pdf

The PW350 is also listed on Newegg.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817707183

So the only question remaining, is whether the 8200 has
the 1x6 power connector as a requirement or not. You
can see that better than I can. The PW400 might not have
as convenient a string of LP4 connectors as your current one.

Paul

mike wrote:
On 12/14/2015 9:01 AM, Mark Twain wrote:
Well this is weird, I had thought I had powered
off the 8200 although I still had the 8500 on and
went to do something else in another room. When
I came back the 8200 was up and running!

I've rebooted it and it came back up like there
was never any problem. So I think it is the power
problem like you say. After all its 15 years old.

You had me check the capacitors before and you said
they all looked good but of course that doesn't mean
something couldn't have blown since.

I thought we looked at these?

http://www.amazon.com/PS-5251-2DS-DE.../dp/B0056I5SK8

http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Dell-D.../dp/B00N3742NS


of course there's eBay

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=...ds=&rmvSB=true


but you advised against it.

Hopefully this shows the type of connectors:

http://i63.tinypic.com/2yxjjtx.jpg

http://i63.tinypic.com/353av6p.jpg

Robert

Measure the voltage of the Standby 5V supply when it's cold.
I've had several computers with weird boot/no boot symptoms
because the cap in the Standby 5V went open.

I don't remember whether the bad voltage showed up on a typical
average-reading voltmeter or whether I had to put a scope on it.

That's the fun part about these problems. There are many
possibilities, not all of which can be analyzed with
cheap tools.

If the amber LED on the current supply is tied into
the supervisor voltage, that might give some indication
of supervisor health (part of which is making +5VSB for
sleep/standby/startup). Some Dells (not the same model)
have the amber light flashing, which could be the
supervisor voltage cutting in and our.

I have a supply that failed, not by producing bad output, but
by injecting noise onto AC, in the MHz region. It caused my
ADSL modem to drop sync (was eroding the noise floor) and the
symptoms also included a herringbone pattern on an analog TV
set. That was my first hint something wasn't exactly right.
And examination inside showed it had the usual filter network
on the front end (no de-pops to save money), and none of the
caps showed signs of leakage. I'd need some fancy equipment
to figure out what was going on there. And of course,
danger galore while working with 300VDC+ voltages.

Paul

That's way beyond my skills and do not
have a volt meter in any case.


Robert

Today when logging on the 8500 the amber
light in the 8200 started flashing then
stayed solid. So I powered everything back
down and powered off. I then pulled the
plug on the 8200 and waited 30 seconds before
re-inserting it but it came back with the
amber light and green drive light as before.

I might as well unplug the 8200 until I
get another power supply.

When you talk about 1x6 power connectors
are you referring to where it connects
to the motherboard?

http://i65.tinypic.com/2lk741f.jpg

Robert

Since I'm going to be handling the power
supply should I get one of those safety
straps?

Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
Today when logging on the 8500 the amber
light in the 8200 started flashing then
stayed solid. So I powered everything back
down and powered off. I then pulled the
plug on the 8200 and waited 30 seconds before
re-inserting it but it came back with the
amber light and green drive light as before.

I might as well unplug the 8200 until I
get another power supply.

When you talk about 1x6 power connectors
are you referring to where it connects
to the motherboard?

http://i65.tinypic.com/2lk741f.jpg

Robert


The Playtool site has all the necessary pictures.

Red, two orange, three black. The mating connector
is on the motherboard. The connector design uses
"posts" rather than the hollow tubes a regular
Molex uses.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psucon...ctors.html#aux

If your motherboard uses that, presumably it was put
there for a reason. If the main 20 pin connector
has sufficient ampacity, then it might not be necessary.

Molex pins on the main connector, might be good for 6 amps
each. There are multiple ground, 3.3V, and 5V contacts.
Together, then can carry currents up to a certain level.
When they make the motherboard, they have to be
careful to prevent current hogging, and it is easy
for one Molex pin to be carrying more current than
its mates. There have been motherboards in the past,
where pins would burn, because of current hogging.

To help prevent that, with the 3.3V and 6he 5V, they
added the 1x6 as a means to spread the load over
more wires and pins.

The other part that is a bit weird, is they have
made supplies with ratings of 5V @ 40A. And yet,
there aren't enough contacts and wires, to really
make usage of that current rating. So the wiring
harness is the limiting factor, rather than
the switching circuit in the power supply itself.

Have a look at your motherboard, and see if a connector
with red, orange, orange, black, black, black is present.
That predicts whether a supply with an AUX might be needed.

I'm just trying to double-check the Startech information,
to make sure something stupid isn't in the datasheet.

I prefer to see substitute supplies to have the same
"wire loom" as the original supply. I dislike when the
so-called replacement supply, has a bunch of wires on it
you cannot use (SATA power inside an IDE computer). But
that's how these things work, unfortunately. We don't get
to design the products, merely buy them.

Paul

Mark Twain wrote:
Since I'm going to be handling the power
supply should I get one of those safety
straps?

Robert


The greatest danger to sensitive components,
is when handling the contacts (accidentally
touching the gold contacts on the RIMMs).

When replacing a supply, your opportunities
for committing mischief, are quite limited.
An antistatic strap isn't absolutely essential,
unless you're wearing an angora sweater and sitting
in a chair with a plastic seat back :-)

When changing out power supplies, if you've never
done it before, make notes of "which side the
yellow goes on" and so on. That's how I did it the
first time I replaced a supply. Got out a pad of paper,
and made diagrams of all the connectors. As I'm a bit
more familiar with the connector types now, I no
longer have to do that.

I have worked with people, who have managed to take
a *keyed* connector, and ram it on backwards. Some
people are so strong, they can do that. Naturally,
smoke comes out of the PC when you do that. If a connector
doesn't fit, ask yourself if there is a valid reason
it doesn't go on backwards.

The hardest part, is figuring out how to move the old
supply out, and the new supply in, without busting something.
Some computer cases have a "support bar" in exactly the wrong
place, it is riveted into place, and you cannot easily
remove it. And it can be quite difficult to move out
the supply, without removing a lot of other stuff first.
For example, maybe the CPU cooler or cowling gets in the
way. And you really don't want to remove more stuff
than necessary.

To get the supply out of my new build, I would have to

1) Remove supports holding up CPU cooler.
2) Pull the entire motherboard (remove video card first).
3) Now, I have room to get at the power supply.

That's how miserable the job can be sometimes. The CPU cooler
is so big in the new machine, there is no room to do anything
in there. The machine assembles in a certain order, so
you have to take it apart in the reverse of that.

Paul

I opened up the 8200 and did see
anything like you described:

http://i65.tinypic.com/1zdpvu9.jpg

http://i64.tinypic.com/jsh6di.jpg

rOBERT

You know what, I kind of thought I
had taken out the 8200 power supply
before.

Now I remember, I did, to grease the
fan bearing with with white lithium
grease.

I had to use tin snips to cut through
the fan grill (just the center part)
to gain access to the bearing. I think
I'll also modify the new power supply
the same way before putting it in.

Robert