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  #16  
Old June 25th 18, 10:14 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default 4TB external HD

Ed Cryer wrote:

The main difference that leaps out at me is that the 4TB drive has a
power adaptor; none of the other devices do.

Ed


As I understand it, it's a 12V @ 1.5A adapter.

My enclosures here use 12V @ 2A adapters,
with the intention of some of that being
converted to +5V inside the enclosure.

But it's pretty hard to guess why it only
happens when the drive is plugged in hot.

If there's nothing in the Reliability Monitor
for the events (except some sort of dirty shutdown
report), then it probably isn't a driver.
If it was a driver, the box should tip over
during the boot process when it tries to
mount the partition.

The power adapter "floats" and isn't tied to safety
ground. The GND from the adapter is tied to
logic ground, and there isn't really a mechanism
for something coming through the adapter
to tip things over. If the adapter went
crazy, it would likely burn the drive
and leave evidence.

It's almost like the bus charging transient
when the USB3 plug goes in, is enough to cause
+5VSB on the PC to wink out.

Paul
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  #17  
Old June 25th 18, 10:20 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Brian Gregory[_2_]
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Posts: 166
Default 4TB external HD

On 25/06/2018 22:01, Ed Cryer wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote:
Paul wrote:
Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 12:53:03 +0100, Ed Cryer
wrote:

I have a Seagate 4TB external HD, powered, like this;
https://goo.gl/q1z7RC

It works fine with Win7. No sign of trouble.
But when I plug it into Win10 the system dies. Strangely, when I
boot with it plugged in, everything goes fine.

There's nothing relative in the Windows Log, other than info that
the system didn't shut down properly before the reboot.

Has anybody seen this? Or, any hunches as to what's causing it?

Ed

I had a similar problem with a Verbatim drive. It was fixed by a new
driver that was applied by an automatic update. I assume Seagate have
some driver fixes.
Steve


It should be using a regular USB Mass Storage driver.

The drive is 3.5" and has an external 12V @ 1.5A adapter.
The question would be, where does the +5V come from.

A lot of drive enclosures, convert some of the 12V to 5V to
run the logic board on the hard drive. So rather than the
wall adapter having four wires like a Molex, only +12V comes
from the adapter, and the +5V is produced on site.

(Wall +12V ------------ Adapter ---- +12V ------ Hard drive motor
Â*Â*Wart) GND ------------ BoardÂ*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ---- +5VÂ* ------ Hard drive logic board
(not all pins shown)
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +5VSB ------------ USB toÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX+ ------ Hard drive
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D+Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* SATAÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX- ------ data
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D-Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ConverterÂ*Â*Â* RX+ ------ connector
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* GND ------------- ChipÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* RX- ------ 7 pin (3 GND)

The USB cable by comparison, has a source of +5VSB at
up to 900mA on USB3. If the ATX power supply doesn't
have sufficient +5VSB rating, and you actually
overload +5VSB, it can cause the motherboard to shut
off. Instead of doing a restart, it would appear to
spontaneously shut off.

Maybe they made it like this, but... unlikely.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +12V ------------ Adapter ---- +12V ------ Hard drive motor
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* GND ------------ BoardÂ*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +-------------- +5VÂ* ------ Hard drive logic board
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* |
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +5VSB ---------+-- USBÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX+ ------ Hard drive
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D+Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* SATAÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX- ------ data
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D-Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ConverterÂ*Â* RX+ ------ connector
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* GND ------------- ChipÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* RX- ------ 7 pin (3 GND)


But even though that looks bad, it's not possible to
tell from the outside, exactly how the external storage
box was designed.

If it was a driver issue, you'd expect to see some
error info in the Reliability Monitor related to the
driver.

The drive might not be spinning when it is plugged
in during a session, but spinup current comes from
the 12V 1.5A adapter, rather than the USB bus cable.
The USB bus cable should only power the adapter
board inside the enclosure. Or in a more exotic
design, the bus power could also be used to run
the hard drive logic board.

For a driver issue, you'd expect to see a BSOD on the
screen for a short time. If you disabled automatic
restart, then the BSOD would stay on the screen longer.
If it really is a power issue (crushing of +5VSB) then
changing the automatic restart setting would not change
the symptoms.

If the computer shuts off and doesn't restart, that
sounds more like a +5VSB issue.

And while placing a USB3 powered hub between the
computer box and the external drive would sound
like fun, those aren't always designed properly
either. Sometimes there are undesired interactions
between the downstream +5V on the powered hub,
versus the +5VSB on the host side of the hub box
(the "backfeed" problem).

If an iPad was being charged off the PC, at the
same time the HDD enclosure had the USB data
cable plugged in, that would represent a pretty
heavy load on +5VSB (several amps).

Â*Â*Â* Paul


Hi Paul.

I've just tried it on another Win10 box and it works perfectly there.
I took it back to the faulting box, booted with it in, uninstalled it,
rebooted ...... problem still there.

I've not had any other USB problem with the box. I've plugged in other
HDs, memory sticks, external bluray writer. All fine.

Ed


The main difference that leaps out at me is that the 4TB drive has a
power adaptor; none of the other devices do.

Ed


My theory:
The power supply on the drive is cheap Chinese rubbish and has no
earthing and measurable mains voltage leakage and the PC shuts down when
a small spark jumps from the USB cable to the PC as you insert the USB
connector.

If the drive's power supply is earthed through to it's output then maybe
the PC isn't earthed or an earth loops is causing current flow that
crashes the PC.

--

Brian Gregory (in England).
  #18  
Old June 25th 18, 10:26 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Brian Gregory[_2_]
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Posts: 166
Default 4TB external HD

On 25/06/2018 21:48, Paul wrote:
Brian Gregory wrote:
On 25/06/2018 17:50, VanguardLH wrote:
Looks
like it uses that goofy adapter cable: Micro-B to Type A.


What else could it use???


The enclosure is big enough to use a regular Type B.
It's a 3.5" disk.

I suppose they might take advantage of the new shingled
drives in the 0.8" high HDA, and make the enclosure
with less vertical height. 4TB can be done with 2 platters
on shingled drives.

If you were doing a 2.5" disk enclosure, then the
Micro-B might make more sense.

Â*Â* Paul


Have you seen a USB3 Type B?
It's significantly bigger than a USB2 type B and looks rather weird.
I haven't ever come across anything that needs one.

--

Brian Gregory (in England).
  #19  
Old June 25th 18, 10:35 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 466
Default 4TB external HD

On 25/06/2018 22:26, Brian Gregory wrote:

Have you seen a USB3 Type B?


No I haven't seen. Can you provide a picture and dimensions to check
whether you are telling the truth.

It's significantly bigger than a USB2 type B and looks rather weird.


How big? Is it as big as my cock in erect state?

I haven't ever come across anything that needs one.


You can have my cock.


  #20  
Old June 25th 18, 10:36 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
nospam
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Posts: 4,718
Default 4TB external HD

In article , Brian
Gregory wrote:


Have you seen a USB3 Type B?
It's significantly bigger than a USB2 type B and looks rather weird.
I haven't ever come across anything that needs one.


usb3 drives do.
  #21  
Old June 25th 18, 11:44 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default 4TB external HD

Brian Gregory wrote:
On 25/06/2018 22:01, Ed Cryer wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote:
Paul wrote:
Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 12:53:03 +0100, Ed Cryer
wrote:

I have a Seagate 4TB external HD, powered, like this;
https://goo.gl/q1z7RC

It works fine with Win7. No sign of trouble.
But when I plug it into Win10 the system dies. Strangely, when I
boot with it plugged in, everything goes fine.

There's nothing relative in the Windows Log, other than info that
the system didn't shut down properly before the reboot.

Has anybody seen this? Or, any hunches as to what's causing it?

Ed

I had a similar problem with a Verbatim drive. It was fixed by a new
driver that was applied by an automatic update. I assume Seagate have
some driver fixes.
Steve


It should be using a regular USB Mass Storage driver.

The drive is 3.5" and has an external 12V @ 1.5A adapter.
The question would be, where does the +5V come from.

A lot of drive enclosures, convert some of the 12V to 5V to
run the logic board on the hard drive. So rather than the
wall adapter having four wires like a Molex, only +12V comes
from the adapter, and the +5V is produced on site.

(Wall +12V ------------ Adapter ---- +12V ------ Hard drive motor
Wart) GND ------------ Board ---- GND ------
---- GND ------
---- +5V ------ Hard drive logic
board
(not all pins shown)
+5VSB ------------ USB to TX+ ------ Hard drive
D+ SATA TX- ------ data
D- Converter RX+ ------ connector
GND ------------- Chip RX- ------ 7 pin (3 GND)

The USB cable by comparison, has a source of +5VSB at
up to 900mA on USB3. If the ATX power supply doesn't
have sufficient +5VSB rating, and you actually
overload +5VSB, it can cause the motherboard to shut
off. Instead of doing a restart, it would appear to
spontaneously shut off.

Maybe they made it like this, but... unlikely.

+12V ------------ Adapter ---- +12V ------ Hard drive motor
GND ------------ Board ---- GND ------
---- GND ------
+-------------- +5V ------ Hard drive logic board
|
+5VSB ---------+-- USB TX+ ------ Hard drive
D+ SATA TX- ------ data
D- Converter RX+ ------ connector
GND ------------- Chip RX- ------ 7 pin (3 GND)


But even though that looks bad, it's not possible to
tell from the outside, exactly how the external storage
box was designed.

If it was a driver issue, you'd expect to see some
error info in the Reliability Monitor related to the
driver.

The drive might not be spinning when it is plugged
in during a session, but spinup current comes from
the 12V 1.5A adapter, rather than the USB bus cable.
The USB bus cable should only power the adapter
board inside the enclosure. Or in a more exotic
design, the bus power could also be used to run
the hard drive logic board.

For a driver issue, you'd expect to see a BSOD on the
screen for a short time. If you disabled automatic
restart, then the BSOD would stay on the screen longer.
If it really is a power issue (crushing of +5VSB) then
changing the automatic restart setting would not change
the symptoms.

If the computer shuts off and doesn't restart, that
sounds more like a +5VSB issue.

And while placing a USB3 powered hub between the
computer box and the external drive would sound
like fun, those aren't always designed properly
either. Sometimes there are undesired interactions
between the downstream +5V on the powered hub,
versus the +5VSB on the host side of the hub box
(the "backfeed" problem).

If an iPad was being charged off the PC, at the
same time the HDD enclosure had the USB data
cable plugged in, that would represent a pretty
heavy load on +5VSB (several amps).

Paul

Hi Paul.

I've just tried it on another Win10 box and it works perfectly there.
I took it back to the faulting box, booted with it in, uninstalled
it, rebooted ...... problem still there.

I've not had any other USB problem with the box. I've plugged in
other HDs, memory sticks, external bluray writer. All fine.

Ed


The main difference that leaps out at me is that the 4TB drive has a
power adaptor; none of the other devices do.

Ed


My theory:
The power supply on the drive is cheap Chinese rubbish and has no
earthing and measurable mains voltage leakage and the PC shuts down when
a small spark jumps from the USB cable to the PC as you insert the USB
connector.

If the drive's power supply is earthed through to it's output then maybe
the PC isn't earthed or an earth loops is causing current flow that
crashes the PC.


I would be alarmed if I saw sparks fly between the PC USB
connector and a powered USB 3.5" drive.

The ground shell touches first, and we'd be talking about
a spark-into-ground event, with the possibility of
crosstalk between the shield and internal conductors
to upset other electronics. This tends to be worse on
*front* panel connectors. Due to the front connectors
never being earthed properly (typically set in plastic,
and only the shield on the cable provides ground). The
back connectors have obvious physical paths to chassis,
and a slightly lesser chance of induced upset.

The wall adapter has 230V on one side. The HiPot test
is supposed to verify 1100V withstanding for some
period of seconds. But the sticker or proof of test
might not be visible from the outside. ATX supplies
sometimes have a visual indication on them that
they've been HiPot tested. It's best to apply the
test after final assembly, as if anyone makes a dopey
mistake, the test might catch it.

The transformer(s) themselves could be HiPot tested,
and that's probably done on the transformer manufacturing
line. But that's not likely to be the last test.
You want a final test, to verify no creepage & clearance
problems, or solder splashes where they don't belong.
Visual inspection (even robotic) isn't enough for
safety purposes. If someone files a law suit
against you, you can show the HiPot stamp on the
unit, show the court your test station for the
procedure and so on. For whatever that's worth.

If you do see a spark, well, stop using it :-)
If the design is intended to float, it should
not throw sparks. And there's no reason for
that test case to violate the HiPot max.
If you raised the PC chassis thousands of volts
above the rest of the house, yes, you'll see
a spark on the resulting multiple HiPot failures.

Paul
  #22  
Old June 26th 18, 12:21 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default 4TB external HD

Brian Gregory wrote:
On 25/06/2018 21:48, Paul wrote:
Brian Gregory wrote:
On 25/06/2018 17:50, VanguardLH wrote:
Looks
like it uses that goofy adapter cable: Micro-B to Type A.

What else could it use???


The enclosure is big enough to use a regular Type B.
It's a 3.5" disk.

I suppose they might take advantage of the new shingled
drives in the 0.8" high HDA, and make the enclosure
with less vertical height. 4TB can be done with 2 platters
on shingled drives.

If you were doing a 2.5" disk enclosure, then the
Micro-B might make more sense.

Paul


Have you seen a USB3 Type B?
It's significantly bigger than a USB2 type B and looks rather weird.
I haven't ever come across anything that needs one.


I think the idea is, you can use a USB2 Type B to Type A
cable with that connector.

I think I actually have one of those cables, that
came with the inkjet printer.

https://s22.postimg.cc/btz0qtj01/enclosure_Type_B.gif

Paul
  #23  
Old June 26th 18, 01:46 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Sam E[_2_]
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Posts: 248
Default 4TB external HD

On 06/25/2018 11:50 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote:

I have a Seagate 4TB external HD, powered, like this;
https://goo.gl/q1z7RC


That gives NO SPECIFICATIONS on the device. It is an ad pointing to an
Amazon auction - and not for $89 but for $165 and for an older version
that is $70 more than the newer version!


Amazon changes prices often. Perhaps it was $89 once.
  #24  
Old June 26th 18, 01:49 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
hah[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 74
Default 4TB external HD

On 06/25/2018 12:16 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
2018: The year we learn to play the great game of Euchre


That was last year. It must be an easy game to forget.
:-)

--
"Fascism is a religious concept." [Benito Mussolini, _Fascism,
Institutions And Doctrines_]
  #25  
Old June 26th 18, 01:59 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,881
Default 4TB external HD

nospam wrote:

In article , VanguardLH
wrote:


I have a Seagate 4TB external HD, powered, like this;
https://goo.gl/q1z7RC


That gives NO SPECIFICATIONS on the device. It is an ad pointing to an
Amazon auction - and not for $89 but for $165 and for an older version
that is $70 more than the newer version!


what specs were you looking for?

it's an external usb 3 hard drive. there is nothing special about them.
they're all pretty much the same.

From that article following its link to Amazon and getting the model
number from there, it is model STDT4000100. When I go to:

https://www.seagate.com/support/exte...d-drives/backu
p-plus-desk/?sku=STDT4000100#specs

there is no online data specs or manual listed there. I found a manual
but not for that particular model and did a Google Image search. Looks
like it uses that goofy adapter cable: Micro-B to Type A.


micro-usb is an industry standard connector.

there is nothing goofy about it, unless you consider poorly designed to
be goofy, particularly micro-usb3.

It works fine with Win7. No sign of trouble.
But when I plug it into Win10 the system dies. Strangely, when I boot
with it plugged in, everything goes fine.

There's nothing relative in the Windows Log, other than info that the
system didn't shut down properly before the reboot.

Has anybody seen this? Or, any hunches as to what's causing it?


You don't say how you are connecting the external HDD. USB2 or USB3?
No info on what USB versions are supported by the computer to which you
are connecting the Seagate USB drive.


the year is 2018 so it's almost certainly usb 3, not that it matters,
since usb 3 drives will work with a usb 2 port, just not as fast.

Are any other USB devices attached to the same USB controller as for the
USB port you're using for the Seagate USB drive? USB ports are in
pairs: 2 per controller.


not necessarily, and also irrelevant.

*each* usb port is capable of sourcing at least 500ma (for usb2), but
that's typically higher because of external hard drives, smartphones
and other devices that require more power. 1a is common, but may be
even higher.

if the port is usb 3, then it can source at least 950 ma, and that too
could be higher.

in other words, the usb port is not the issue unless the computer is
very old and has old usb 2 ports that aren't over-spec'ed, which we
know it is not the case since the problem system is running win10.

Does the same problem arise when you plug a USB2 (not USB3) device into
that same USB port on your computer? USB3 devices, especially several
of them, will suck more power than USB2.


nonsense.

first of all, there can only be one device per usb port. unlike other
interfaces, usb cannot be chained.

second, an external usb drive would 'suck' the same amount of power
whether it's usb2 or usb3, assuming it uses the same hard drive
mechanism internally. the power for the bridge board is negligible.

if the hard drive mechanism is different, then the power draw could be
different, but that has nothing to do with the choice of interface and
the difference is not significant anyway.

If your PSU is weak, the surge
on spinning up USB3 devices could overload a weak PSU.


nonsense.

an external usb bus-powered hard drive is not going to overload a psu,
particularly since the usb port will deny a power request if it cannot
provide the power.


Rather than nitpicking at others, start helping those you pretend to be
helping by addressing the OP's start post and giving direct help. Or
maybe you're a troll who has no intent to help the OP.

So what's YOUR suggested troubleshooting steps the *OP* should take,
huh? You just make noise and never do help the OPs with their problems.
  #26  
Old June 26th 18, 03:01 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Brian Gregory[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 166
Default 4TB external HD

On 26/06/2018 00:21, Paul wrote:
Brian Gregory wrote:
On 25/06/2018 21:48, Paul wrote:
Brian Gregory wrote:
On 25/06/2018 17:50, VanguardLH wrote:
Looks
like it uses that goofy adapter cable: Micro-B to Type A.

What else could it use???


The enclosure is big enough to use a regular Type B.
It's a 3.5" disk.

I suppose they might take advantage of the new shingled
drives in the 0.8" high HDA, and make the enclosure
with less vertical height. 4TB can be done with 2 platters
on shingled drives.

If you were doing a 2.5" disk enclosure, then the
Micro-B might make more sense.

Â*Â*Â* Paul


Have you seen a USB3 Type B?
It's significantly bigger than a USB2 type B and looks rather weird.
I haven't ever come across anything that needs one.


I think the idea is, you can use a USB2 Type B to Type A
cable with that connector.

I think I actually have one of those cables, that
came with the inkjet printer.

https://s22.postimg.cc/btz0qtj01/enclosure_Type_B.gif

Â*Â* Paul


Of course, just as you can use a USB2 micro B plug in a USB3 micro B
socket, if you don't want/need the USB3 speed.

--

Brian Gregory (in England).
  #27  
Old June 26th 18, 03:03 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Brian Gregory[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 166
Default 4TB external HD

Plonk.

--

Brian Gregory (in England).
  #28  
Old June 26th 18, 03:05 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Brian Gregory[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 166
Default 4TB external HD

On 25/06/2018 23:44, Paul wrote:
Brian Gregory wrote:
On 25/06/2018 22:01, Ed Cryer wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote:
Paul wrote:
Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 12:53:03 +0100, Ed Cryer
wrote:

I have a Seagate 4TB external HD, powered, like this;
https://goo.gl/q1z7RC

It works fine with Win7. No sign of trouble.
But when I plug it into Win10 the system dies. Strangely, when I
boot with it plugged in, everything goes fine.

There's nothing relative in the Windows Log, other than info that
the system didn't shut down properly before the reboot.

Has anybody seen this? Or, any hunches as to what's causing it?

Ed

I had a similar problem with a Verbatim drive. It was fixed by a new
driver that was applied by an automatic update. I assume Seagate have
some driver fixes.
Steve


It should be using a regular USB Mass Storage driver.

The drive is 3.5" and has an external 12V @ 1.5A adapter.
The question would be, where does the +5V come from.

A lot of drive enclosures, convert some of the 12V to 5V to
run the logic board on the hard drive. So rather than the
wall adapter having four wires like a Molex, only +12V comes
from the adapter, and the +5V is produced on site.

(Wall +12V ------------ Adapter ---- +12V ------ Hard drive motor
Â* Wart) GND ------------ BoardÂ*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ---- +5VÂ* ------ Hard drive logic
board
(not all pins shown)
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +5VSB ------------ USB toÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX+ ------ Hard drive
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D+Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* SATAÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX- ------ data
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D-Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ConverterÂ*Â*Â* RX+ ------ connector
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* GND ------------- ChipÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* RX- ------ 7 pin (3 GND)

The USB cable by comparison, has a source of +5VSB at
up to 900mA on USB3. If the ATX power supply doesn't
have sufficient +5VSB rating, and you actually
overload +5VSB, it can cause the motherboard to shut
off. Instead of doing a restart, it would appear to
spontaneously shut off.

Maybe they made it like this, but... unlikely.

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +12V ------------ Adapter ---- +12V ------ Hard drive motor
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* GND ------------ BoardÂ*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ---- GNDÂ* ------
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +-------------- +5VÂ* ------ Hard drive logic
board
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* |
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* +5VSB ---------+-- USBÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX+ ------ Hard drive
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D+Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* SATAÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* TX- ------ data
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* D-Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ConverterÂ*Â* RX+ ------ connector
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* GND ------------- ChipÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* RX- ------ 7 pin (3 GND)


But even though that looks bad, it's not possible to
tell from the outside, exactly how the external storage
box was designed.

If it was a driver issue, you'd expect to see some
error info in the Reliability Monitor related to the
driver.

The drive might not be spinning when it is plugged
in during a session, but spinup current comes from
the 12V 1.5A adapter, rather than the USB bus cable.
The USB bus cable should only power the adapter
board inside the enclosure. Or in a more exotic
design, the bus power could also be used to run
the hard drive logic board.

For a driver issue, you'd expect to see a BSOD on the
screen for a short time. If you disabled automatic
restart, then the BSOD would stay on the screen longer.
If it really is a power issue (crushing of +5VSB) then
changing the automatic restart setting would not change
the symptoms.

If the computer shuts off and doesn't restart, that
sounds more like a +5VSB issue.

And while placing a USB3 powered hub between the
computer box and the external drive would sound
like fun, those aren't always designed properly
either. Sometimes there are undesired interactions
between the downstream +5V on the powered hub,
versus the +5VSB on the host side of the hub box
(the "backfeed" problem).

If an iPad was being charged off the PC, at the
same time the HDD enclosure had the USB data
cable plugged in, that would represent a pretty
heavy load on +5VSB (several amps).

Â*Â*Â* Paul

Hi Paul.

I've just tried it on another Win10 box and it works perfectly there.
I took it back to the faulting box, booted with it in, uninstalled
it, rebooted ...... problem still there.

I've not had any other USB problem with the box. I've plugged in
other HDs, memory sticks, external bluray writer. All fine.

Ed


The main difference that leaps out at me is that the 4TB drive has a
power adaptor; none of the other devices do.

Ed


My theory:
The power supply on the drive is cheap Chinese rubbish and has no
earthing and measurable mains voltage leakage and the PC shuts down
when a small spark jumps from the USB cable to the PC as you insert
the USB connector.

If the drive's power supply is earthed through to it's output then
maybe the PC isn't earthed or an earth loops is causing current flow
that crashes the PC.


I would be alarmed if I saw sparks fly between the PC USB
connector and a powered USB 3.5" drive.

The ground shell touches first, and we'd be talking about
a spark-into-ground event, with the possibility of
crosstalk between the shield and internal conductors
to upset other electronics. This tends to be worse on
*front* panel connectors. Due to the front connectors
never being earthed properly (typically set in plastic,
and only the shield on the cable provides ground). The
back connectors have obvious physical paths to chassis,
and a slightly lesser chance of induced upset.

The wall adapter has 230V on one side. The HiPot test
is supposed to verify 1100V withstanding for some
period of seconds. But the sticker or proof of test
might not be visible from the outside. ATX supplies
sometimes have a visual indication on them that
they've been HiPot tested. It's best to apply the
test after final assembly, as if anyone makes a dopey
mistake, the test might catch it.

The transformer(s) themselves could be HiPot tested,
and that's probably done on the transformer manufacturing
line. But that's not likely to be the last test.
You want a final test, to verify no creepage & clearance
problems, or solder splashes where they don't belong.
Visual inspection (even robotic) isn't enough for
safety purposes. If someone files a law suit
against you, you can show the HiPot stamp on the
unit, show the court your test station for the
procedure and so on. For whatever that's worth.

If you do see a spark, well, stop using it :-)
If the design is intended to float, it should
not throw sparks. And there's no reason for
that test case to violate the HiPot max.
If you raised the PC chassis thousands of volts
above the rest of the house, yes, you'll see
a spark on the resulting multiple HiPot failures.

Â*Â* Paul


I said small spark.

I've seen this happen on an HP printer. A Deskjet 720 if I remember
correctly. Luckily I could leave it connect all the time so it wouldn't
crash the PC.

I still don't see you properly describing exactly what happens, a crash
or a power off or what.

--

Brian Gregory (in England).
  #29  
Old June 26th 18, 03:14 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Nil[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,731
Default 4TB external HD

On 25 Jun 2018, Brian Gregory
wrote in alt.comp.os.windows-10:

Plonk.


You'll be better off plonking that idiot's pseudonym, but you should be
aware that the message you responded to is a forgery.
  #30  
Old June 26th 18, 03:20 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default 4TB external HD

Brian Gregory wrote:
On 25/06/2018 23:44, Paul wrote:
Brian Gregory wrote:
On 25/06/2018 22:01, Ed Cryer wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote:
Paul wrote:
Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 12:53:03 +0100, Ed Cryer

wrote:

I have a Seagate 4TB external HD, powered, like this;
https://goo.gl/q1z7RC

It works fine with Win7. No sign of trouble.
But when I plug it into Win10 the system dies. Strangely, when I
boot with it plugged in, everything goes fine.

There's nothing relative in the Windows Log, other than info
that the system didn't shut down properly before the reboot.

Has anybody seen this? Or, any hunches as to what's causing it?

Ed

I had a similar problem with a Verbatim drive. It was fixed by a new
driver that was applied by an automatic update. I assume Seagate
have
some driver fixes.
Steve


It should be using a regular USB Mass Storage driver.

The drive is 3.5" and has an external 12V @ 1.5A adapter.
The question would be, where does the +5V come from.

A lot of drive enclosures, convert some of the 12V to 5V to
run the logic board on the hard drive. So rather than the
wall adapter having four wires like a Molex, only +12V comes
from the adapter, and the +5V is produced on site.

(Wall +12V ------------ Adapter ---- +12V ------ Hard drive motor
Wart) GND ------------ Board ---- GND ------
---- GND ------
---- +5V ------ Hard drive logic
board
(not all pins shown)
+5VSB ------------ USB to TX+ ------ Hard drive
D+ SATA TX- ------ data
D- Converter RX+ ------ connector
GND ------------- Chip RX- ------ 7 pin (3 GND)

The USB cable by comparison, has a source of +5VSB at
up to 900mA on USB3. If the ATX power supply doesn't
have sufficient +5VSB rating, and you actually
overload +5VSB, it can cause the motherboard to shut
off. Instead of doing a restart, it would appear to
spontaneously shut off.

Maybe they made it like this, but... unlikely.

+12V ------------ Adapter ---- +12V ------ Hard drive motor
GND ------------ Board ---- GND ------
---- GND ------
+-------------- +5V ------ Hard drive logic
board
|
+5VSB ---------+-- USB TX+ ------ Hard drive
D+ SATA TX- ------ data
D- Converter RX+ ------ connector
GND ------------- Chip RX- ------ 7 pin (3 GND)


But even though that looks bad, it's not possible to
tell from the outside, exactly how the external storage
box was designed.

If it was a driver issue, you'd expect to see some
error info in the Reliability Monitor related to the
driver.

The drive might not be spinning when it is plugged
in during a session, but spinup current comes from
the 12V 1.5A adapter, rather than the USB bus cable.
The USB bus cable should only power the adapter
board inside the enclosure. Or in a more exotic
design, the bus power could also be used to run
the hard drive logic board.

For a driver issue, you'd expect to see a BSOD on the
screen for a short time. If you disabled automatic
restart, then the BSOD would stay on the screen longer.
If it really is a power issue (crushing of +5VSB) then
changing the automatic restart setting would not change
the symptoms.

If the computer shuts off and doesn't restart, that
sounds more like a +5VSB issue.

And while placing a USB3 powered hub between the
computer box and the external drive would sound
like fun, those aren't always designed properly
either. Sometimes there are undesired interactions
between the downstream +5V on the powered hub,
versus the +5VSB on the host side of the hub box
(the "backfeed" problem).

If an iPad was being charged off the PC, at the
same time the HDD enclosure had the USB data
cable plugged in, that would represent a pretty
heavy load on +5VSB (several amps).

Paul

Hi Paul.

I've just tried it on another Win10 box and it works perfectly there.
I took it back to the faulting box, booted with it in, uninstalled
it, rebooted ...... problem still there.

I've not had any other USB problem with the box. I've plugged in
other HDs, memory sticks, external bluray writer. All fine.

Ed


The main difference that leaps out at me is that the 4TB drive has a
power adaptor; none of the other devices do.

Ed


My theory:
The power supply on the drive is cheap Chinese rubbish and has no
earthing and measurable mains voltage leakage and the PC shuts down
when a small spark jumps from the USB cable to the PC as you insert
the USB connector.

If the drive's power supply is earthed through to it's output then
maybe the PC isn't earthed or an earth loops is causing current flow
that crashes the PC.


I would be alarmed if I saw sparks fly between the PC USB
connector and a powered USB 3.5" drive.

The ground shell touches first, and we'd be talking about
a spark-into-ground event, with the possibility of
crosstalk between the shield and internal conductors
to upset other electronics. This tends to be worse on
*front* panel connectors. Due to the front connectors
never being earthed properly (typically set in plastic,
and only the shield on the cable provides ground). The
back connectors have obvious physical paths to chassis,
and a slightly lesser chance of induced upset.

The wall adapter has 230V on one side. The HiPot test
is supposed to verify 1100V withstanding for some
period of seconds. But the sticker or proof of test
might not be visible from the outside. ATX supplies
sometimes have a visual indication on them that
they've been HiPot tested. It's best to apply the
test after final assembly, as if anyone makes a dopey
mistake, the test might catch it.

The transformer(s) themselves could be HiPot tested,
and that's probably done on the transformer manufacturing
line. But that's not likely to be the last test.
You want a final test, to verify no creepage & clearance
problems, or solder splashes where they don't belong.
Visual inspection (even robotic) isn't enough for
safety purposes. If someone files a law suit
against you, you can show the HiPot stamp on the
unit, show the court your test station for the
procedure and so on. For whatever that's worth.

If you do see a spark, well, stop using it :-)
If the design is intended to float, it should
not throw sparks. And there's no reason for
that test case to violate the HiPot max.
If you raised the PC chassis thousands of volts
above the rest of the house, yes, you'll see
a spark on the resulting multiple HiPot failures.

Paul


I said small spark.

I've seen this happen on an HP printer. A Deskjet 720 if I remember
correctly. Luckily I could leave it connect all the time so it wouldn't
crash the PC.

I still don't see you properly describing exactly what happens, a crash
or a power off or what.


If you short +5VSB to ground, you get a power off.

If you inject a transient into an I/O connector,
you're likely to get a "reset" pulse or "restart".
There's no reason for the power to drop, with
some various transients. The "restart" might
be caused by a CPU crash, followed by automatic
recovery. If you set the automatic restart to disabled,
then the BSOD should stay on the screen.

The OPs symptoms sound as much like a +5VSB short
to ground, as anything a driver could do. With
a driver problem, you'd expect some breadcrumbs
in the form of a BSOD, a descriptive entry in
Event Viewer, or a dot on the Reliability Monitor
screen.

Paul
 




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